Film Rights to First & Second Age

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Your restated argument is no stronger. You're claiming that UA somehow bought everything to do with Numenor? No. First off, JRRT and thus his estate explicitly retained plenary rights over the written word. A claim based on derivative film rights doesn't affect that in any way, shape or form.

Put yourself in the position of the holder of those film rights. You bought the rights, have yet to use them fully, and then see the heirs of the author rewrite the stuff you already own, albeit in far more detailed fashion and much fuller treatment. What would you as rights holder say about this?

"Rewrite the stuff you already own?" Rubbish. Hollywood owns nothing but the right to make films. They don't own the underlying tales. "Rewrite" is of course bogus as well, since you know as well as I do that this material had been written long, long before 1968. If you want to regard The Silmarillion as something already in existence in 1968 (essentially true), then Tolkien did *not* sell those rights (and, I remind you, copyright applies to unpublished as well as published works). If you want to consider it as something Christopher 'wrote', then the film rights to it weren't even in existence to be sold in 1968, Christopher owns it, and no film rights are for sale.

The claim you're advancing is breathtaking in its audacity: you're asserting that, because the subsidiary material to The Lord of the Rings contains a synopsis of certain stories, that the author was thereby precluded from publishing the full-length originals? Again, that Saul Zaentz somehow 'owns' Numenor to the exclusion of its creator?

You can't get out of it by trying to differentiate the Estate- Tolkien's heirs own precisely as much copyright as he did himself: Christopher from a legal perspective merely stepped into his father's shoes.

It's really very simple: UA bought, and New line holds a temporary license in, the words contained between the covers of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Nothing else. If they want to try to expand the synopsis in the Appendices into an entirely bogus film-script, I suppose they could; but their right to do so is in no way 'diminished' by the fact that the genuine article exists beyond their control.

[Sauron the White]

from WCH - (who should know better)

Your restated argument is no stronger. You're claiming that UA somehow bought everything to do with Numenor? No. First off, JRRT and thus his estate explicitly retained plenary rights over the written word. A claim based on derivative film rights doesn't affect that in any way, shape or form.

Its an unfortunate given in some debates that each side or one side will ignore the actual truth in the others arguement and instead attempt to restate the opposing sides points in language that is far more favorable to themselves and then argue against that. And that is what you have done here.

I never claimed that UA SOMEHOW BOUGHT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH NUMENOR. If I did, please reproduce that section so I can see it with my own two eyes. You are a smart man who should know better. And we have gone round on other issues before and you should know I will not fall for this tactic.

I brought up an issue that many here do not even want to think about, let alone tackle and look at the implications. It is a legal one and not a literary one.

JRRT sold film rights to every single thing in LOTR and HOBBIT to UA before he died. Included in those rights is every word in the Appendicies. Then he died not having published the actual book version of THE SILMARALLION.

Do you agree with those facts?

My point is a simple one that people have not looked at before this - at least I have not seen it discussed. The current rights holders to both LOTR and HOBBIT own a wealth of material from previous Middle-earth history. They own the film rights to that. They do not own the film rights to the published book THE SILMARALLION edited by CT after his fathers death.

The fact is this: the publishing and copyrighting of SIL causes many legal questions to arise since much of what is in there was first published and included in LOTR and to a lesser extent in HOBBIT. If it was me, and I owned those film rights to that material, I would be very concerned that my rights have been severely diminished by CT causing to be published SIL.

Here is the position the rights holders are now in.

1- they can go ahead and include things from the Appendicies in a film and invent all the dialogue, place designs, character designs, and transitional scenes from scratch.

2- they can utilize the fuller descriptions of these things as found in the published SIL without actually filming the book as a movie in much the same way that Jackson used afew things outside of the actual LOTR.

3- they can film something like SIL using anything they want to use claiming that they owned the story first.

If they do any of these things, here is what can happen with each of those actions.

option 1 - critics here and elsewhere - the Print Purist community for lack of a better term - rip on that approach saying over and over again for years and years and years that the films are not authentic, made too much up out of their own heads, were creatures of invention, are NOT the Middle-Earth of JRRT, show no respect for the actual world of JRRT and Middle-earth and are, in short, a bunch of crap.

option 2 - risk being sued by the Estate

option 3 - risk a stonger chance of lawsuit by the Estate

Sounds like lose, lose , lose to me.

So the rights holders own rights which have been rendered problematic in the least and impossible in the extreme.

The diminishment of rights is a practical matter that renders those same rights in great jeapordy.

Some here may not want to look at it that way but I think it is very clear.

The published SIL makes the holders of those film rights sold free and clear by JRRT damned if they do and damned if they do not.

[zxcvbn]

A question I'd like to ask is: exactly how much of the Appendices do New Line have the rights to? I believe that the original editions of the book had smaller Appendices and they were expanded later in the 70s or 80s(which was AFTER Tolkien sold the film rights). I say this because a few years ago I read an article about the Middle Earth MMORPG game where the developers said that they had the rights to only parts of the Appendices.

[Sauron the White]

I have a copy of the first edition US of ROTK which contains the Appendicies. By the time the rights were sold in late 1969, the books would have been updated with any of the changes you refer to - if there were any.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

They do not own the film rights to the published book THE SILMARALLION edited by CT after his fathers death....

You understate the case. They do not own rights to any of the manuscript materials from which CT edited the published Silmarillion, nor any of JRRT's other writings, published or unpublished. These materials were off-limits to UA in 1968 and continued to be so after 1977.

...the publishing and copyrighting of SIL causes many legal questions to arise

You may be under the misapprehension that copyright comes into being when a work is published. It does not. It comes into being at the moment of the work's creation.

...since much of what is in there was first published and included in LOTR and to a lesser extent in HOBBIT. If it was me, and I owned those film rights to that material, I would be very concerned that my rights have been severely diminished by CT causing to be published SIL.

There you're simply wrong. This notion of somehow 'diminishing rights' is nonsense. The film rights incorporate the right to make films of the contents of the Lord of the Rings. Had The Silmarillion never been published, then, arguendo, New Line could make movies based on the Appendices, alone, without reference to the (unpublished) Silmarillion. Post-77, arguendo, New Line could make movies based on the Appendices, alone, without reference to the (published) Silmarillion. Nothing has changed and their rights have not diminished one iota.

Also, please get this straight: the fact that Tolkien died before the Silmarillion was published is entirely immaterial. His heirs have just as much right to it as he did himself, and you can't get anywhere by claiming that CT and his father are different persons.

Film rights are derivative. They exist only in conjunction with the existence of a specific written work, and have no bearing of any sort whatsoever on future related written works by the author. As stated, your argument would lead logically to the conclusion that Saul Zaentz held veto power over The Silmarillion's publication! Zaentz bought rights to make use of the sketch history of the Elder Days. He did not buy all rights to the First Age.

[Sauron the White]

Where did I say anything about the holder of film rights deserving a veto over publication of THE SIL or anything else?

There is a huge legal difference between a copyright and a legally registered copyright which attaches protections of law and introduces certain legal remedies and penalties. Huge difference.

The facts are undeniable in that JRRT sold the rights to every single word contained in LOTR and HOBBIT in 1969. That includes the Appendicies. Then, later after his death, his heirs exercise their legal rights and cause to be published SIL. Fine. Nobody is disputing their right to do that.

But the problem is that the publication of SIL complicates material contained in it that is already owned for other purposes by UA.

The writer who has sold more books to screen than anyone else today is Stephen King. King does not complicate the arrangement by including the synopsis to his future books as part of his current ones. He does not sell the film rights to THE SHINING with inclusion of Appendicies which outline and describe the content and characters of his next several books.

JRRT did not do this. He sold the film rights to LOTR and H with all its inclusion of other material, Appendicies included. Then his heirs, took the foundation of that material, used additional writings by JRRT, and caused to be published a book length SILMARALLION.

Please answer me this question. If you are UA - or anyone else who holds those rights - what are you now suppose to do with them? You thought you owned something but now find out that it has been materially changed and altered makign it difficult for you to exercise the rights you paid for and were granted.

Again, and this has been ignored, here are your three options and results of exercising those options:

1- they can go ahead and include things from the Appendicies in a film and invent all the dialogue, place designs, character designs, and transitional scenes from scratch.

2- they can utilize the fuller descriptions of these things as found in the published SIL without actually filming the book as a movie in much the same way that Jackson used afew things outside of the actual LOTR.

3- they can film something like SIL using anything they want to use claiming that they owned the story first.

If they do any of these things, here is what can happen with each of those actions.

option 1 - critics here and elsewhere - the Print Purist community or anyone who can read and compare versions, - rip on that approach saying over and over again for years and years and years that the films are not authentic, made too much up out of their own heads, were creatures of invention, are NOT the Middle-Earth of JRRT, show no respect for the actual world of JRRT and Middle-earth and are, in short, a bunch of crap.

option 2 - risk being sued by the Estate

option 3 - risk a stonger chance of lawsuit by the Estate

Please address this very real problem.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's not a "very real problem". It's a completely artificial problem created from whole cloth.

There is a huge legal difference between a copyright and a legally registered copyright which attaches protections of law and introduces certain legal remedies and penalties. Huge difference.

No. There isn't. None. The only difference registration makes is that it's much easier to prove that the work in question existed as of that date. Period. The legal remedies and penalties exist notwithstanding as soon as the creative work reaches 'any tangible form.'

This I think is what underlies your argument. You're trying to claim that The Silmarillion somehow came into being post-68 and therefore somehow illegitimately compromised what UA had bought.

The film-rights holders have precisely the same rights they had in 1968. You're trying to argue that the publication of an Official Version might invite invidious comparisons to a made-for-Hollywood Crap Version. Well, it might. Tough.

You thought you owned something but now find out that it has been materially changed and altered makign it difficult for you to exercise the rights you paid for and were granted.

Once again: in selling film rights to LR, Tolkien *in no way whatsoever* compromised his rights to write whatever he bloody well pleased. He could had he chosen to do so have rewritten the end of the Third Age so as to make Sauron a hero fighting Gandalf's evil plot to corner the illicit pipe-weed trade. And UA/Zaentz/New Line would have no- repeat, NO- say in it.

Again- your argument boils down to a claim that since Zaentz has a claim on the Appendix synopsis, he effectively has a right to protect whatever value that claim might have from 'diminishment' by the original author writing futher about his own fictional world! Nonsense.

To adress your three lose-lose-lose propositions- they were *always* lose-lose-lose. Option one is the empty right to invent a bogus non-Tolkien plot, which readers would assail. Quite true. It doesn't become any more bogus than it already was when the Author's canonical account appears.

[Sauron the White]

from WCH

Again- your argument boils down to a claim that since Zaentz has a claim on the Appendix synopsis, he effectively has a right to protect whatever value that claim might have from 'diminishment' by the original author writing futher about his own fictional world! Nonsense.

Why do you, an otherwise intelligent person, persist in deliberately twisting and misstating my words? Where did I say that the author - JRRT - should or could be restrained or stopped from writing about his own fictional world.

Please.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

That's exactly what you're saying. Disguised perhaps by an assertion that it's Christopher as if that made a shred of difference, legally.

You're objecting that Zaentz' rights are somehow 'diminished' because Tolkien-and-his-Estate had the audacity to publish additional material which was referenced in the Appendices. In other words, you're arguing that Zaentz has a 'right' to prevent that diminishment- which leads inevitably to some claim of a veto.

The alternative is equally preposterous- that Zaentz somehow has unfettered rights to the Silmarillion simply because the briefest precis of some of its content appeared in the LR.

Or what alternative remedy for this nonexistent problem have I overlooked?