Film Rights to First & Second Age

[William Cloud Hicklin]

My point is that it is not clear what rights are owned by the Tolkien Estate and what rights are owned by Zaentz and New LIne when it comes to material outsideofthe actual HOBBIT and LOTR stories.

Why? Because JRRT included a wealth of historical information in his Appendicies which were part of LOTR - ROTK and sold as film rights in 1969. Eight years later, the book length SILMARALLION is published and now there are two accounts of these events.

Many people here, including Mr. Hicklin, speak as if they have a Supreme Court decision in front of them clearly spelling out in great detail what can be done and what cannot be done with these film rights. This is not the case in reality. There is much grey area .

There is NO grey area. There are no overlapping rights. There is no ambiguity, except in your fevered imagination. NONE.

It's amazingly simple. Zaentz/New Line can use material found between the covers of the Lord of the Rings. Period. That's it. The existence of other Middle-earth material changes nothing- they have no rights to it. PJ is constrained to doing what he did with, say, the (EE) Gladden Fields- stick to the very brief LR account without any reference at all to the detailed UT narrative of the same event.

Christ, this is (for a lawyer) as maddening as it is for a paleontologist confronting some no-evidence-for-evolution Fundamentalist.

[Sauron the White]

So there is no overlapping of any material contained in LOTR and SIL?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

I'm sorry, but my head is becoming extremely sore from repeated collisions with a brick wall.

Let's try this: Imagine a Venn diagram with two overlapping circles, like the MasterCard logo. Label one 'Lord of the Rings' and the other 'Silmarillion.'

Now, New Line gets everything inside the LR circle, including the overlapping portion. New Line gets nothing outside it, including the remaining portion of the Silmarillion circle. Clear? I hope so.

However, let's be clear about what lies inside that overlapping area. One can't claim that because Aragorn tells a brief version of the Lay of Leithian below Weathertop, that thereby every element of the subset 'Beren and Luthien' is thereby moved into the overlapping area. Only the specific elements and incidents Aragorn relates fall into that zone. No Huan the Hound, no Nargothrond or Finrod, no Hunting of the Wolf, no overthrow of Taur-in-Gaurhoth: all those elemenmts remain in the non-overlapped part of the Silmarillion circle, and off-limits.

[Sauron the White]

Allow me to be just as clear in the hope we can better mutually understand each others positions.

Based on what you know, both of the Tolkien film rights situation, the writings of JRRT, the holdings of the Estate, and the law itself, could the current film rights holders of both THE HOBBIT and LOTR make a film in which the following happened or is depicted under the title Tales of the Silmarallion:

- Feanor is shown to be the greatest of the Eldar making the Silmarils filling them with the radiance of the Two Trees
- Morgoth stealing the Silmarils
-Morgoth destroying the Two Trees by poisoning them
- Morgoth retreating to his great fortress of Thangorodrim with the Silmarils
- Feanor leading his people into exile
- War between the Eldar and Edain against Morgoth and his forces
- the defeat of the Eldar and Edain
- the union of Beren and Luthien and their lineage
-Beren and Luthien steal a Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth
-Luthien becomes mortal and gives birth to Dior
-the city of Gondolin with Turgon as its king
-the wedding of Earendil to Elwing
-the overthrow of Morgoth
-the ship of Earendil is set into the heavens

That would seem more than enough for one film.

Would the current rights holder of film rights to LOTR have the right to include those events or character depictions?

You asked me to be specific and thats really specific.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Theoretically, it could be done (although use of the title 'silmarillion' would create trademark problems independent of copyright concerns)

However, your hypo film could not include-

-the Music of the Ainur
-any description of Valinor
-any Valar save Varda and Morgoth
-the awakening of the Elves
-the House of Finwe aside from Feanor
-any details of the Darkening, such as Ezellohar or the Ring of Doom, or Ungoliant's presence (Ungoliant's existence as an ancestor of Shelob could be deduced, but no tale or incident involving her whatsoever)
-any mention of the Oath or the Kinslaying
-any description of Thangorodrim
-the founding of Gondolin, or Turgon's ancestry
-the founding of Nargothrond or any description thereof
-Any of the Five Battles of the War of the Jewels
-Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth (identifying the original Grond as 'the Hammer of the Underworld' doesn't go any further than that)
-any part of the Tale of Turin
-any part of the Tale of Tuor
-any part of the Tale of Tinuviel, save the specific elements related by Aragorn
-any part of the Fall of Doriath or the sack of the Havens; indeed no mention of the Havens at all
-any part of the Tale of Earendil except for whatever can be squeezed out of Bilbo's Song

and on, and on, for 400 pages of the Silmarillion.

So you're trying to write a film script derived entirely from a one-paragraph synopsis. In other words you'd be in the same situation as the rather funny attempts in various fan-newsletters, pre-77, to predict The Sil's contents.

Likewise, a film of the Fall of Numenor could be cobbled up from Appendix B, but no mention at all could be made of the details found only in The Akallabeth, like the Temple of Morgoth or the voyage of Amandil.

[Sauron the White]

WCH - thank you for this answer

Theoretically, it could be done (although use of the title 'silmarillion' would create trademark problems independent of copyright concerns)

I take it then that your answer to my question is YES.

Regarding the title - the Appendicies - A - state that those incidents and characters come from The Silmarallion. I would state that my title merely says where I obtained this material. But fine.

Thank you for telling me what I could not put into the film. I feel I have more than enough on the plate for a full film with the list as I provided. And I appreciate your concern about the difficulties of making a film from a short synopsis. But that is sometimes how films are sold. I understand that one of the most beloved films of all time came from a simple greeting card.

Next question: Could the Tolkien Estate, sell the film rights to THE SILMARILLION to a producer creating a film of its tales including the following

- Feanor is shown to be the greatest of the Eldar making the Silmarils filling them with the radiance of the Two Trees
- Morgoth stealing the Silmarils
-Morgoth destroying the Two Trees by poisoning them
- Morgoth retreating to his great fortress of Thangorodrim with the Silmarils
- Feanor leading his people into exile
- War between the Eldar and Edain against Morgoth and his forces
- the defeat of the Eldar and Edain
- the union of Beren and Luthien and their lineage
-Beren and Luthien steal a Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth
-Luthien becomes mortal and gives birth to Dior
-the city of Gondolin with Turgon as its king
-the wedding of Earendil to Elwing
-the overthrow of Morgoth
-the ship of Earendil is set into the heavens

If the Estate sold those rights, would a film maker have the legal right to make that film?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If the Estate sold those rights, would a film maker have the legal right to make that film?

Ah, I see where you're going. You're suggesting that, were the Estate hypothetically to sell the film rights to The Silmarillion, then Zaentz would be able to attack that sale, or rather part thereof, on the basis that he already owns the film rights to specific incidents included in the Appendices to LR.

Possibly so.

However

A) it ain't gonna happen

B) the issue turns on whether JRRT sold UA an exclusive or non-exclusive license. If the latter, the Estate is free to sell another license to somebody else

C) the issue also turns on whether the JRRT/UA contract explicitly excluded the Elder Days- which well it might. Tolkien was very protective of that material.

(B) and (C) of course are irreducible unknowns, so long as the actual contract remains secret. And the whole exercise is moot, given (A).