A question about class in Middle Earth

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

May I ask a question here? It seems to an American that the British are absolutely obsessed with the idea of social class and where one stands on the class structure. Could someone explain this? Over the years, it seems that every other British film, or films set in British life, have class as its central or one of its more important themes. Here in the States, class is nothing important. It is understood that you will rise or fall on the basis of yourself and your abilities.

I think of the excellent film REMAINS OF THE DAY and its fixation on the roles of the classes and I could come up with hundreds of other examples.

I do not mean to hijack this thread and do not want to do so... but the topic introduced here seems central to this understanding.

As an American, I am sure it would be presumptuous for me to answer for the English contingent; however, since Americans are, as a rule, regarded as rude, I shall sally forth with a brief explanation anyway.

First, Universal Male Suffrage was not an established fact in Britain until well into the 20th century. Even though there were important reform acts in 1832, 1867 and 1884, much of the voting rights for men were based on income requirements (voting rights were originally only available to Protestant -- particularly Anglican -- landowners for the most part). For instance, up until 1832 great industrial cities like Manchester and Birmingham had no representation in parliament; whereas a 'Rotten Burrough' out in the country -- which might consist of perhaps 100 souls and a few sheep (and controlled by a single family for generations) -- had an MP representing them. An excellent summarization can be found here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A545195

Second, for most of the history of British Parliament there was no direct salary for MP's. A member of the House of Commons was expected to be well-off enough to be able to maintain himself and his family without the need for recompense from the government (and thus govern the country with irreproachable discernment and enlightenment unmuddied by the crass need for actually working for a living). It was not until 1911 that MPs received a regular salary:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/M05.pdf

This patrician view of a ruling class was self-perpetuating, and almost hereditary (with such famous families as the Churchills, Cecils and Pitts as examples), and reached its zenith in the Edwardian Age preceding WWI. An excellent book regarding class in that time period in Britain (as well as political overviews of France, Russia and the U.S.) is Barabra Tuchman's The Proud Tower.

Thus, a rigid stratification of class structure evolved over many centuries, and the rule of law was reserved for those constituents who were the landed part of the establishment. One only has to read the novels of Dickens or Austen to ascertain what a middle-class person could aspire to (but not step beyond one's station), or what was the eternal lot of the inveterate poor.

Sorry for the brevity of the explanation, but I don't think it's necessary to go into it further and drag this thread too far afield.

P.S. StW, Nogrod has a valid point regarding class in the U.S. Your statement "Here in the States, class is nothing important" is naive. Though there has always been the ability to pull oneself up by the boots straps and be successful in a stereotypical Horatio Alger manner, the fact remains that class stratification is a fact in the U.S. as a careful study of American government will confirm.

[Sauron the White]

Nogrod - I am not arguing that class is not a fctor in ones life. I only aksed why in British films it seems that class is THE ISSUE in so many films.

By the way, I taught for 33 years in a Detroit high school and saw all kinds of people make it well beyond their parents status. Smarts, hard work and a bit of luck all helps. Everyone got, and still does get, a free public education. Some make the most of the opportunity while others flush it down the toilet.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Nogrod - I am not arguing that class is not a fctor in ones life. I only aksed why in British films it seems that class is THE ISSUE in so many films.

Sure. No problem. You just gave me a lead I couldn't resist to follow...

And yes, the Brits seem to be so attached to their centuries of glory to whitewash all their problems today... That's why they cling to the films of aristocracy as a national passtime or as the "good old" workers... Like the world hadn't changed and reshuffled the cards already...

By the way, I taught for 33 years in a Detroit high school and saw all kinds of people make it well beyond their parents status. Smarts, hard work and a bit of luck all helps. Everyone got, and still does get, a free public education. Some make the most of the opportunity while others flush it down the toilet.

That's the argument for individualism: one can rise above the expectations. And some people do it. And that's great.

The story still is that looking at the statistics those who are children of white (or black) high-educated parents will do well with percentage X (a high one) and those who are the children of low income black (white) single-parent households will do bad with a percentage Y (a high one).

Having these numbers can you still say it's a question of a personal merit only? I mean, yes it in a way is. A few people jump over the fence and a few fall down. But what is the foreseen career you're able to reach unless you perform extremerly well / poor? Some people just have better starting points - and in today's world I'd call that a class-difference. In the eighties it was smoother but now we're going back to the class society of the early 20th century or the late 19th.

And that's sad.

[Bêthberry]

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . .

There are kings among several of the races in Middle-earth, men, elves and dwarves. There are also hereditary positions, such as Gondor's Stewards. There are many references to noble blood, with the idea that the highest form of behaviour is shown by those with such blood. Gondor's ruling class seems mighty concerned with its Numenorean heritage, as if that gave them some sort of special dispensation. Both Rohan and Gondor have formal burial grounds for their kings/stewards, but we don't hear (as I recall) much about where the ordinary folks are buried. Aragorn must earn his throne, but he is still a king in waiting and his son--right of primogeniture--inherits his throne. (We aren't even ever told the name of his daughter.)

Contrasted with this pervasive backdrop are the Hobbits, who might not have a king but they do have, as Morthoron points out, a class society, as evidenced in the Gamgees and the Tooks/Brandybucks and Sam's term of address for Frodo. Of course, the fact that Sam becomes mayor many times over adds a suggestion that the class society which is otherwise displayed all over Middle-earth will have some mobility in the 4th Age, yet even there we have the paternalism of the King decreeing who shall have access to the Shire.

There is much niggling over class in Middle-earth, as there is over many of Tolkien's themes.

EDIT: I rather like Morthoron's patrician to describe the sense of class in LotR.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . .

A good idea.

I think - and all you cognoscenti should teach me about this if I'm wrong - that Tolkien was an aristocrat. And there being a possibility of being an aristocracy requires a class society to begin with...

One may say that he wrote the legendarium of the old world which was not his contemporary world and the society he portrays can be explained from that angle.

But yet I feel it was a world not totally unattractive to him. Like the ideas Plato brings forwards with Socrates as his mouthpiece in his dialogues: they were not things he thought were the final truth but nevertheless they were not totally against his own position...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . . I rather like Morthoron's patrician to describe the sense of class in LotR.

Interestingly enough, Smeagol's Stoor line that remigrated from the area of the Angle and settled back in the Vales of Anduin was matriarchal (or at least, that's the assumption based on the gleanings we get from Tolkien), one of the few instances (Haleth and perhaps Galadriel -- being equipollent with Celeborn -- being others) where strong female leaders were present. I suppose you could add the ruling queens of Numenor before Ar-Pharazon usurped the crown and forced marriage upon the last presumptive queen, Miriel. Sadly, thereafter primogeniture seems to have been the rule in Gondor among the kings and ruling stewards (as you perceptively stated, the daughters of Elessar didn't even warrant a mention).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly enough, Smeagol's Stoor line that remigrated from the area of the Angle and settled back in the Vales of Anduin was matriarchal (or at least, that's the assumption based on the gleanings we get from Tolkien), one of the few instances (Haleth and perhaps Galadriel -- being equipollent with Celeborn -- being others) where strong female leaders were present. I suppose you could add the ruling queens of Numenor before Ar-Pharazon usurped the crown and forced marriage upon the last presumptive queen, Miriel. Sadly, thereafter primogeniture seems to have been the rule in Gondor among the kings and ruling stewards (as you perceptively stated, the daughters of Elessar didn't even warrant a mention).

Well now, I am glad you did not assume I was referring to Coleridge's definition of patrician.

Even more interesting is the fact that, if I recall correctly, the only pure incidence of shunning in LotR is that of Smeagol by his matriarchal clan, although the parochialism of the hobbits suggest all hobbits harbour that potential. Didn't the ruling queens of Numenor rule only because they lacked male siblings?

But as I mentioned, Elessar's decree about limiting access to the Shire suggests at least a paternalism, as if the hobbits were regarded as children, as they didn't labour for Gondor.

Of course, we don't know who worked the tobacco fields.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mind if just drag this thread back to the original topic for a moment? Mansun, you didn't simply ask whether social classes existed in M-E, you said:

I must apologise to Mansun, as I assumed his use of between represented the common confusion of between and among, but Nerwen's post suggests that between is indeed the operant word.

Originally Posted by [QUOTE=Nerwen

Now, that question is answered pretty comprehensively in the next post. However, I'm just curious about what made you think of it to begin with.

Because, you see, societies with species-based class-systems do crop up in speculative fiction, I can't recall any sign of that in Middle-earth (apart from the example Morthoron gives). Or have you seen something I've missed/

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

Class has nothing to do with what you are talking about in most cases.

Gandalf can be condescending, patrician or elitist to anyone he chooses, Mansun. He is neither a different class, nor a different race, he is an elemental, angelic being in a humanoid form (a Maia).

Again, with Elves there may be views of a racial (or genus) superiority, but it is not a matter of class, and the reasons they no longer have commerce with other races does not necessarily impute they feel racially superior. The elves were withdrawing from the world (from the Now or Present you might say), and retreating into the Past Perfect. With the aid of the Elven Rings they created artifical paradises at Rivendell and Lothlorien (but let it be said that the Last Homely House always welcomed wayfarers of good will if they could find the correct paths). The Silvan Elves under Thranduil traded regularly with the men of Laketown, and there was no imputation of superiority (they even aided Laketown when it was destroyed by Smaug).

Regarding Gondor and Rohan, there was originally a vow of vassalage between the leaders of both lands (the Oath Of Eorl), but almost all the actual fealty and bonds of vassalage had long since been suspended by the time of the War of the Ring. Did Gondorions feel superior to the Rohirrim? Again, it would not be a 'class-centric' view, but rather a national egoism or racial pride (of Numenor), and except for some disparaging remarks by Denethor (who was rather disparaging to everyone, even his own son), there is no evidence of it among other Gondorions toward the Rohirrim in the books.

The closest one gets to actual class warfare or animosity is between the Dunlenders and the Rohirrim (rather like the oppressed Celts against the Romano-Britons, or the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans). Because we know far more about the Shire than any other realm, we have a fairly good idea of society and class structure among the Hobbits (the Victorian or Edwardian relationship between Sam and Frodo being the most pronounced), the views of Hobbiton regarding the queer folk of The Marish, and the Squires of the Brandybucks and Tooks.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

No, I can't recall any such bonds of fealty. The Elves and the Dwarves were always distinct and separate (sometimes malevolently so), even when they had great friendship such as arose between Hollin and Moria.

[Nerwen]

StW, Yes, England has a reputation for being particularly class-obsessed. Morthoron has outlined some of the historical reasons why this may be the case.

However, inequality is a fact of life everywhere– including America.

I am Australian, and here you also get people saying that we live in a classless society... even though this clearly contradicts daily experience.

Yes, people at the very bottom of the heap can be there because they're feckless, and many people rise through their own efforts– but overall a lot depends on opportunity. Middle class and upper class kids get much more of it than working class ones. From everything I know of the United States, it's much the same there.

EDIT: X'd with Nogrod and Bethberry.