The Nine Walkers

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I think that I can pretty much sum up this question with a single quote.



The advantage for the Fellowship would be in secrecy, not in power, although they did have some the best warriors in Middle Earth accompanying them.


Gandalf's wisdom could have rivaled that of Elrond, and unless Elrond could stop the storms of Caradhras there was no way that his knowledge would have been to any avail.


I think that since Gandalf actually knew Denethor, a strange elf- lord showing up on his doorstep telling him what to do would infuriate Denethor and hurt his pride more than help.


This question I cannot answer. Glorfindel was the only one who could openly do battle to the Witch King, and Elrond would have been as much of a match for him as Gandalf. Though the Witch King shows a great amount of arrogance in talking to Gandalf as if he was an "Old Man" on a horse. We never get to see any fighting happening, so I'm not 100% sure how it would have gone down, but I'm sure Glorfindel or Elrond couldn't do any better than Gandalf would have.

But there was no visible way that they could know of all those situations. Remember the Fellowships hope was in speed and secrecy.

It is possible that the great lords of Rivendell could have offered more knowledge to the advantage of the Company and the Quest, whilst at the same time delivering all the enhanced skills for combat and secrecy of movement and going unseen that great elves are renowned for. Certainly in Minas Tirith there would have been more morale if more than just one great lord came to their aid before the onslaught of Mordor.

Denethor, I recall, favoured Elrond to be the wisest of all the Loremasters in Middle Earth, according to Boromir. That is partly why Boromir was sent to Rivendell, to seek the counsel of Elrond. Though what good he could have done for Denethor but perhaps talking him out of taking his life is beyond me. I would think Denethor seeing Elrond as a strange elf lord would have been most alarming, given the history of this great sire, in particular in his role in the Last Battle against Sauron 3,000 years before. Surely his coming, as with the Sword of Elendil, would have rekindled hope and glory. Victory by arms could have been a dream again.

If the Witch King had one great lord to contend with, logic suggests he would have given the same mocking treatment as he did with Gandalf. If he was up against two lords, then he would almost certainly have reverted to plan B (retreat, then drive his armies into terror and to assault Minas Tirith for him).

[Groin Redbeard]

You make some valid points that I never thought of, Mansun. However, the elves were beginning to fade away into the west and the dominance of Men was becoming visible, especially once Elessar ascended the throne of Gondor. Could it be that Elrond saw this war as a war for the future age of Men? I'm not saying that the elves would be completely dormant, but not taking an active role, as they have done before; instead men would be the dominant figures to decide their own fate. Sort of like winning their spurs.

Then again that's just me: full of crazy ideas!

[Rumil]

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

This thread takes things to another level to the one you have referenced, Rumil, as it asks what may have happened if the majority of the Company chosen were elf lords from Rivendell. Elrond is also Half Elven, not elven. This thread also seeks to look at what impact Elrond in particular could have had during the trek of the Nine Walkers.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

[Eönwë]

Well, there's obviously Sam and Frodo. Without them there is no fellowship. But other than that I'll give it a go:

First of all, you can't replace Gandalf. More powerful than an elf lord, and much more easily hidden. And I don't know what some of you think, but Gandalf would totally "pwn" (but that's 7th age speak, and not commonly used at that, so I don't thibk he'd use that particular word himself) the Witch King. But that's a discussion for another day (But let's just say this: He's a match for a Balrog. And the WK is- or was- a man).

Aragorn's fate is tied to this so he definately had to go.

Legolas could have been replaced but he helped them a lot (especially in Lorien- but I suppose Gandalf and Aragorn could have done that anyway. But it wouldn't have been as easy). And without him, we wouldn't have that acrobatic, sliding (on shields or Oliphaunt trunks) horse-jumping-onto elf of the movies, and we wouldn't be able to make fun of the "fangurls".

Gimli is important because if Gloin and Bilbo couldn't be in this together, then they need a representative/heir/descendant. After all, if it wasn't for the dwarves, Bilbo wouldn't have found the ring, so they need a dwarf to lose/get rid of it again.

Well, we all know that Boromir might have been better replaced by Faramir, but that is also another discussion. But the fellowship wouldn't have split up so easily (In a good way) if he hadn't died, Faramir wouldn't have found Frodo later on (instead it would have beeen Boromir, who would have taken it). The sight of Gondorian lord would also have probably intimidated the Rohirrim, as they were already on slightly unfriendly terms (If I remember correctly), and Gondor were the rulers.

Now, about the hobbits. Earlier on, it might have been better for the fellowship to replace Merry and Pippin with great warriors. But in the battle where Boromir was killed, would the Uruks have spared to great elf-lords. Something tells me they would much rather kill them, and delight in doing so. Then there would be no-one to cause the Ents to go to war. Elfs would indoubtedly be better at talking to trees, bu would they have survived? Also, the Merry and Pippin would would have probably been killed, or at least not been in the right mind to head a rebellion. The Thain would just have been another boring person as before, even as a Took, he would not be so inflamed to fight and wouldn't have been experienced enough. The Shire may well have fallen if not for those certain hobbits going on the Quest.

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

If elf lords are to be seen as vulnerable due to their power which the enemy could perhaps detect more easily (though this is not proven), what then can be said of the presence of Gandalf in Mordor (as was the original plan), and the power of the Ring when Frodo entered Mordor? Sauron, for instance, did not detect the power of the Ring until Frodo put in on in Mount Doom. I am sure elves may wear cloaks to help conceal their power to a degree as with Gandalf, such as the cloaks of Loth Lorien.

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

The Age of Men


An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

Man-of-the-Wold's comment deserves close thought, as he suggests something important about the larger picture. It is not that elves might be more powerful than men or that Gondor would have welcomed elves. It is that in the Legendarium, the elves have had their chance. They were weighed in the balance and found wanting and now are diminishing. The important aspect of the Third Age is how the focus shifts from the first born to the next born, men. Hence, Man-of-the-Wold's choice of title for his post. A fellowship comprised in the majority by men--and hobbits are men--even one that breaks-- provides for this shift. It is the chronological development of the coming of men that makes this fellowship rather than an elven fellowship meaningful. Furthermore, Elves would have made the alliance between Rohan and Gondor less significant and less strategic. The elves, after all, failed to destroy the Ring in the past. Why would they necessarily be more successful this time?

The recurrent theme that even the very small or weak have a part to play is also brought out by having the hobbits play a major role, as well as having other men--Boromir and Faramir--play out the Ring's powerful appeal. LotR is a story for a new age and not a rehash of some elven battle. And the presence of members of the older races, elves and dwarves, works to acheive some kind of rapproachment with the earlier ages, where friendship becomes at least as significant as their prowess in battle. Strangely enough, even with all its emphasis on war and battle and fighting and might, LotR, like The Battle of Maldon, makes psychology a crucial aspect of the struggle.

[radagastly]

I think that Elrond was looking at the bigger picture. Rivendell was "The Last Homely House," the last refuge of all the elves of Middle-Earth on their way into the West. Such a place must be well defended, at the very least. Certainly his own presence, with his Ring, was needed right where it was. That doesn't mean he would have been discovered, if he had gone with the Fellowship. Certainly, Gandalf was able to conceal his Ring throughout the story, and there is no reason to believe that Elrond and Galadriel could not do the same. In fact, Galadriel said as much:

'I know what it was that you last saw,' she said; 'for that is also in my mind. Do not be afraid! But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is the land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.

'Yes,' she said, divininng his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

'He suspects, but he does not know--not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you secceed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

That should be enough to know that Sauron was looking for any sign or presence of any of the Three. For Elrond to venture forth with the Fellowship would have brought the Enemy down on them immediately:

'He suspects, but he does not know--not yet.

Obviously, Sauron was not stupid. He had figured out where the Three were most likely to be hiding. He simply could not 'detect' them the way he (or the Nazgul) could 'detect' the One. He simply wasn't sure. "Doubt ever gnaws him." as Gandalf put it.

In addition, while Lothlorien seemed to live in the Old Days (whatever that may mean,) Rivendell seemed to recall the best parts of them without imposing them on the visitors. (I forget where it is described as such, I think it's Sam talking, but if anyone can find it, I'd be grateful.) And, of course, the Ring of Fire, at the Havens, would rekindle their hearts for the voyage ahead. There were very few that knew that Cirdan had given his Ring to Gandalf. Possibly even Elrond and Galadriel did not know for sure.

To sum up, Lothlorien was the world of Eternity that the Elves lived their daily lives in, Rivendell was the transition towards the inevitable, mundane world of Men, and the Ring of Fire, (which should have been at the Havens with Cirdan) gave the Elves the final strength of will to venture across the Sea, to the Undying Lands. Most of them who were left had never been there. Not even Elrond himself. If Elrond had taken his Ring away from Rivendell, it might well have destroyed any chance his people had of escaping the evils of Middle-Earth and finding Peace in Valinor. Don't think for a second that he didn't know that. To take his Ring from Rivendell would have stopped the migration in its tracks.

As for possibly sending Glorfindel, I believe Elrond had strategic reasons for keeping him. If Sauron even suspected that one of the Three resided in Rivendell, he would have assailed it with all the forces he could muster and spare. Until the One was destroyed (or lost), keeping the Three a secret would have to be utmost in Elrond's mind. Therefore, at the very least, he would have to 'hold out' until all was lost, and probably fight an epic battle in his own house to do so. Having Glorfindel, the only character in the book besides Gandalf who ever killed a Balrog, would be a great benefit in such a fight.

Originally Posted by Mansun
This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

Unfortunately, by this time, Elrond was a virtual stranger in Gondor:

from The Council of Elrond:
Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

This seems to be the only reference to Elrond from Gondor in the entire book. (If anyone can find any other, please let me know.) It is probably all that Denethor knew of him; his name. Add this to the fact that Minas Tirith was not their intended destination (except for Boromir and Aragorn) and it would have done little good for him to go, and a great deal of harm for him to leave. As for Elrond 'summoning' the Council:

from The Council of Elrond:
'That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.'

Denethor's knowledge of Elrond seems to be an invention of the Extended edition of the movies, understandable shorthand, but without basis in the source story. He was, at best, an obscure legend, perhaps even a myth, but nothing more. Just enough for Boromir to go north to seek him, though he left Gondor months before Frodo left Hobbiton. Even if Elrond had come to Minas Tirith, the Battle of the Pellannor Fields would have been lost before Denethor would have admitted him to his hall. He would have been a nobody.