The Nine Walkers

[MatthewM]

radagastly is right. Boromir pressed Denethor to even let him go on the errand. Boromir wanted the meaning of a riddle, not the Ring until he saw it.

[Gordis]

Boromir wanted "the Sword that was broken" - I guess he knew which one it was all right.
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Boromir .....
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mansun

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

Was it now?

Gandalf the Grey had been in Gondor many times, but there was hardly any help from him against the Morgul spells... ever. Had he been that powerful, he could have helped in reclaiming Ithilien -at least before Sauron's return to Mordor. And where was he when the nazgul took the Bridge of Osgiliath?

Boromir hoped for a super-weapon... and indeed "the token" in question was stronger than Morgul spells... only it was even more evil.

[mark12_30]

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

Isn't that why Sauron took Aragorn so seriously when Aragron himself looked into the Palantir?

Pippin was as 'useful' as a Ringbearer Decoy as Elrond would have been in diplomacy. Elrond could not have talked Sauron into believing that Arqagon had the Ring, and so, taking Aragorn seriously for the rest of the war.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog.

I never believed that Pippin's stone was the reason for this. There is a possibility that Gollum had kept enemies alert in Moria after skulking around in habited areas. Also, what is there to say that a Moria scout had not spotted the Company? Balin's attempt to retake Moria had awoken the armies of Moria, and going through unseen and unchallenged after that would be almost impossible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

I don't need to read another thread, thanks.

The wizard's staff was symbolic of their order (as when Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff -- a token of Gandalf attaining white status), and used as a means of channeling their inherent power. There is no direct quotes to show that the staff had any innate power in and of itself (as a matter of fact, Gandalf would have most likely lost his original staff in his fall in Moria); hence, Gandalf is seen most often swinging around Glamdring. This is in line with Ibrin's opinion:

As for the wizards' staffs having some power, I don't believe we're ever really given any solid proof that they serve as anything but a channel for the wizards' own power. Breaking or obtaining the staff of another wizard would, I think, at most deprive them of a useful tool, at the least be a merely symbolic gesture. If it had innate power, I suspect we would've heard Gandalf warning Pippin not to EVER touch his staff.

[Gordis]

I like your post, Ibrîn! Good work.

You proved that Aragorn was not intending to go to Mordor initially, neither was Boromir.
Gimli indeed seemed set to stick to Frodo and the Ring - but that doesn't mean that Gandalf and Elrond were of the like mind. Dwarves were not reknown for stealth, but they had a bad reputation for their greed when it comes to jewelry. I don't think Gimli would have been trusted to accompany the hobbits to Mordor without other Big People to keep him in line.

Gandalf indeed seemed to foresee his own end and thus made no plans beyond going to Lorien.

And I wholly agree with Morthoron and Ibrin about wizards staffs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

There is no question that even Pippin proved useful in the end - yes, looking into the Palantir, rousing the Ents and saving Faramir and Merry.

But were Gandalf and Elrond back around the time of the Council able to foresee such details - exactly what would happen? I don't think so. I believe Gandalf only had a vague feeling that Pippin and Merry would be useful on the Quest, as he supposed the same all along about Gollum.

However, apart from that, Elrond and Gandalf had to have some plan for the Quest. I think the splitting of the company was planned from the start: Boromir was going to Minas Tirith and Aragorn planned to go with him. What about the hobbits? I think all of them were supposed to go to Mordor, led by Gollum whose involvement was foreseen by Gandalf. Gollum was the only one who knew the way to Mordor after all.
All the big people go to Minas Tirith, all the stealthy and Ring-resistant hobbits to Mordor, that was the idea. Four hobbits could defend the Ring far better against Gollum's attempts to take it. This way there would have been three hobbits, not one, to take over the Quest if Frodo failed.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Actually, I believe Aragorn says somewhere
that he planned to go with Frodo to Mordor
(and with at least Gimli and Sam?).

And wasn't the vague earlier plan to have Merry and Pippin
go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, not sure about Legolas.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

To put in my two cents: I think it was not without reason that Elrond said:

"This is my last word... The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road."

Which, as we all know, turned out to be prophetic. I suspect that Elrond foresaw if not precise events of the future, at least the probability that some members of the Company were fated to perform other deeds that would contribute greatly to their cause, even though they could not have imagined doing them at the outset. Gimli certainly had a notion in his head that he would stick by Frodo to the end, since his reply to Elrond was:

"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens," said Gimli.

"Maybe," said Elrond, "but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall."

"Yet sworn heart may strengthen quaking heart," said Gimli.

"Or break it," said Elrond. "Look not too far ahead!"

Boromir always intended to return to Minas Tirith, as was his duty (and no doubt he had notions of taking the Ring with him, either by persuading Frodo that this was the better way, or by seizing it); not even Gandalf appears to have made plans for the entire quest, other than that somehow, they would find a way to get the Ring into the Fire:

"We have not decided our course," said Aragorn [to Celeborn]. "Beyond Lothlorien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose."

I have long suspected that this is because Gandalf knew that the closer they came to Mordor itself, the greater a danger his presence became to the Ringbearer. I think he would have gone with Frodo had there been no other choice, but he recognized that it would be a terrible risk. Before leaving Lothlorien, the Company was actually leaning in favor of going with Boromir to Minas Tirith,"to escape for at least a while from the terror of the enemy"; Aragorn had not originally intended to go to Mordor:

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.

I also have long felt that the reason Gandalf had not made clear plans beyond Lothlorien was because he knew that his own great purpose in the quest lay in getting the company to that point, a point which he himself might not reach. I have often thought it strange that there was no apparent record of the nature of the evil that first drove the Dwarves from Khazad-dum, but it is clear that not even the Dwarves were aware that a Balrog was "Durin's Bane," nor were Galadriel and Celeborn. But if, as Celeborn said when the Company first arrived in Lothlorien, the Dwarves had "stirred up this evil in Moria" -- implying that it was not Pippin's stone that had first roused the Balrog, but probably the Dwarves of Balin's attempted colony -- it was almost inevitable that someone would have to deal with it. If a dragon in Erebor would have been a dangerous ally for Sauron to use in his war, how much worse would a Balrog have been? As the war progressed, there was no guarantee that it would remain confined to Moria; indeed, since the orcs there were apparently aware of its presence, it's possible that Sauron already knew of it, and was waiting to use it when he opened his war and attacked Lothlorien. Once its presence was known and it was awake enough to pursue the Company, someone had to take it out. That was imperative. I believe Gandalf had a presentiment of this, in some vague fashion, since he says, "A Balrog. Now I understand." The immediate interpretation is that he understands what power had been on the other side of the door when he was forced to speak a word of Command, but I suspect the understanding runs deeper:

"But Gandalf chose to come himself, and he was the first to be lost," answered Gimli. "His foresight failed him."

"The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety, for himself or others," said Aragorn. "There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."

Between this and Aragorn's warning to Gandalf not to enter Moria, I think that the two had discussed the possibility that Gandalf knew he might meet his end there, if not how or why. But even facing that possibility, Gandalf evidently thought some greater good would achieved by it, and he was right. Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog. It pushed Gandalf to this dark destiny, which ultimately proved to be a great benefit to their cause.

As for the wizards' staffs having some power, I don't believe we're ever really given any solid proof that they serve as anything but a channel for the wizards' own power. Breaking or obtaining the staff of another wizard would, I think, at most deprive them of a useful tool, at the least be a merely symbolic gesture. If it had innate power, I suspect we would've heard Gandalf warning Pippin not to EVER touch his staff.

Guess that was more like a dime's worth.