Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLIX - At the Source of Darkness

[A Little Green]

I'm here at last - though I probably won't be able to contribute as much as I did yesterDay. Firstly, some thoughts about toDay's posts.

Originally Posted by the phantom, about Form

I think he knows good and well that I'm innocent and wants me gone.

Could you elaborate? Why exactly do you presume that Form knows you are innocent?

Originally Posted by Fea

In that line, somebody who hasn't done anything, having nothing to hide, has no guilt to keep people from noticing. Day One is a day in which nobody is guilty of anything. Nothing has been done. Since there was no crime, nothing to hide: nothing!, there is no evidence to search through.

It is true that on Day 1 no crime has yet been committed, and also I agree that Day 1 might be useless in a way. BUT there is one thing I think you do not take into account. It is that even on Day one, the wolves differ from the others in a crucial way. They know who is innocent and who is wolf. All cases they make are fake.

I'm uncomfortable about tp and Mith (what she did yesterDay would be indeed really bold for a baddie but I think she could pull it off, and now everyone seems to trust her..). And I am definitely going to have a look on those who slept under the reindeer in yesterDay's voting on both sides, meaning both Kitanna-voters and the so-called throwaway-voters.

Back with thoughts, hopefully.


EDIT: x-ed with Kath - hello! *waves*

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Fea

Which is why I'm inclined to believe you, and support whole-heartedly your narcissism. Hold out and listen to me: I approve of the phantom's approach of diverting all attention to himself because it guarantees that if he's bad, the seer will know it early and we'll be able to kill him, and if he's good, he'll have somebody on his side.

I think it's very silly to assume that the cobbler assassin or the seer have done or are going to choose a specific person, I don't care who.

Originally Posted by Fea

That might be a first in werewolf history, that an entire village votes for a 'known' innocent rather than even bothering to try to win the game.

The entire village didn't vote for Kitanna. Greenie and I voted for Gwath, Brinniel and Eonwe voted for Greenie, Lommy voted for Nogrod, Nogrod for Groin, and phantom for Lalaith. The scattered voting at the very end is of concern, but everyone's too busy still arguing about yesterDay and is distracted by Form and of course ever distracted by phantom.

I agree with Brinniel on Nerwen. I agree with Greenie on Mith - her moves yeterDay have practically made her an assumed innocent. She feels innocent to me in her manner, but that is definitely something to pay attention to.

I'm still looking at Nogrod.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Quite honestly, I just don't see why a wolf would want to lynch Kitanna rather than have a chance of the death of two innocents in one Day.

To gain the village's trust. To do something people wouldn't expect a wolf to do. Their goal is more to survive than just to mindlessly slaughter as quickly as possible! To leave a clean vote. To continue a debate that will distract the village...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Fea

In which case we really do disagree. I've thought about killing people. That does not make me a murderer. No court on earth has a leg to stand on if they wanted to try to nail me on guilt of being a murderous criminal. Until there is a crime, there is not a criminal. Until there is an ACTION, not a thought, to hide or defend, there is absolutely nothing to prosecute. You can't hold trial for somebody who's 'just thinking about it.'

In that line, somebody who hasn't done anything, having nothing to hide, has no guilt to keep people from noticing. Day One is a day in which nobody is guilty of anything. Nothing has been done. Since there was no crime, nothing to hide: nothing!, there is no evidence to search through.

No, no, no. That's a bad comparison. Werewolves don't just think about or plan killing somebody. They know they are going to do it. They have to do it in order to win. There's a big difference. So, naturally, they are feeling guilty already on Day1 because they know they're going to kill sombody and thus, their guilt can show, and analysing people's Day1 behaviour is not nonsense.

I think I'll reread yesterDay when I have the time and energy to do that. meanwhile, I could provide you with a nice little list about my thoughts on everybody...


Feel innocentish

Eönwë - shines with the light of ordoness, if one may say so. If he's a baddie, he's really sneaky.

Greenie - overall, her tone seems sincere and she has done nothing to make me suspicious of her. My picture of her is rather vague though, I hope she posts a little more in the future. (But I guess she's going to be rather busy today... too bad.)

Mith - her tone is sincere as well and she seems quite relaxed. She doesn't seem unhappy or stressed like many evil Miths do. I think suggesting lynching Kitanna would have been quite bold of a wolf. (Not of a cobbler though. But she doesn't feel cobblerish at all to me. She's not particularily silly nor does she look like she's scheming something dangerous. And she doesn't look like she's trying to get lynched.)

Nilp - nothing in his manner seems too suspicious, he seems rather okay. He is reasonable and doesn't make sense (yes, you probably read it correctly) the way innocents do. I know he has fooled me before, though. I think he might be one of those people who just don't give wolvish vibes even if they are furry. I might need to keep an eye on him but I don't feel like I had a reason to be extra watchful... (Yeah, I know I'm flip-flopping, but I cannot express myself any more clearly...)

Could be either

Brinn - yesterDay, she seemed really innocent to me. Today, not so much. Somehow I have the feeling she's on the wrong track in her general ideas, maybe because I disagree with her about the Kitanna lynch, for example. I wonder if she's "wrong" intentionally... () I hoped I had grown out of suspecting people who disagree with me, but evidently I haven't. There's nothing particularly suspicious in her manner though, so it's pretty difficult to reach a conclusion.

Fea - I always have hard time reading her. I think her phantom-centeredness might point at her being either an ordo or a cobbler. Furthermore, she hasn't done anything suspicious, but if I had to guess who's a wolf, I would possibly name her. I know, it's silly, I'm not really suspicious of her, but I have a kind of intuition she might be a wolf. She's someone I'm definitely going to watch.

Groin - there's really too little data. Come on guy, come here and post! It's not that difficult or scary!

Gwath - I have really mixed feelings about him. In general, he feels quite innocent, but there's something all too sneaky in his manner. I think he could be a wolf who's tiptoeing around. But it's very difficult to say.

Kath - well what can I possibly say? I'm glad she's finally here, though.

Nerwen - as always, she is difficult to read - the same Nerwen as ever. I have the uncomfortable feeling that she's a wolf slipping under my radar, but that is probably because I've got slightly paranoid about her after one certain game... I mean, there is nothing particularly suspicious in her and she makes sense. Maybe I should just watch her more closely.

phantom - he's all over the place, bossing people around and being rather self-centered. It's all normal for him and doesn't have anything to do with his role. He does throw cobblerish comments around, but on the other hand, he could be just trying to avoid getting killed by the wolves or having fun or whatever. He doesn't give me any wolvish vibes, but I don't get it when people keep saying that he's too bold to be a wolf. I don't think he has done anything particularily bold.

Slightly suspicious

Durelin - I agree with her on many points and she does make sense. However, she's having too much fun not to look like a cobbler.

Form - he doesn't even try to look like he's contributing. He also all too happily votes tp right after Shasta. So need I even say aloud that he looks rather cobbleristic? The only thing I really like in him is the way he criticises yesterday's lynch. *smug smile*

Nogrod - like I've said, his early posting yesterDay looked pretty cobbleristic. When people complained about it, he cooled down. A clever cobbler who does not want to lose the game too early? He could be that. Also, some of his arguments seem evilly irrational to me. I don't think he's a wolf though, but I would be less than surprised to find out that he's a cobbler.

Shasta - that guy has been slipping under the radar, and then he goes and makes this rather irrational early vote while he's still able to hang around. He is either a very annoyed innocent, a wolf looking for an excuse to make a safe vote or even a cobbler wishing to add a little to the confusion. I think the two first mentioned options are more probable, though.


Guys, I have a suggestion. Let's stop looking for wolves and start looking for cobblers. I would be far less confused. Seriously, all my even a little serious suspects are suspects of cobblery, and we should preferably lynch wolves. The only ones I even slightly suspect of wolfisness are Shasta, Fea, Nerwen and Gwath, but I don't really suspect any of them enough to be happy with voting them. Maybe I could vote Shasta, but that's it, of them. I'd be tempted to vote one of those I think are cobblers but that would be kind of stupid... argh. I'm glad I still have a lot of time to think about these things and (hopefully) read new posts by everybody.


edit: xed with Gwath, Fea, Dury and Nerwie - yay, action!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Guys, I have a suggestion. Let's stop looking for wolves

Why? Are we getting close to finding one?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++SHASTA

Because I don't know how to get to the airport, I don't know if her flight will be late, and I don't know how many errands she intends to run before we return. So I don't know when I'll be back.

If I'm back by end of day, I'll read through and post again. I like Day Twos. They're highly educational.

[Durelin]

Both Form and Gwath seem like they're trying to make enemies.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Lommy

However, she's having too much fun not to look like a cobbler.

Well if having fun is such a crime...

And aw, Nerwen beat me to it...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And aw, Nerwen beat me to it...

So sorry...

[Kath]

I know that many of you hate it when I do this but as I saw nothing of yesterDay I need to get my thoughts in order which means, yes, a list. Though it's really a 'find the odd things' list so will appear completely biased.

Nog - rather pointless so far, and what's with that 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 list in which everything useful in it could be said in one paragraph making it much easier to read?! Don't know whether he was trying to be warning or inflammatory with that narration quote about the cobblers, the fact that it specifically said it was too dark for them to see each other seemed obvious. My suspicion would be that right now they can't see each other ... but perhaps if they're left alive long enough they will eventually be told who the others are, thus making them a 'better' enemy.

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Durelin - a little bit of stating the obvious.

Eonwe -

Gwath -

Form -

Lalaith -

Groin - says to beware of those who are very loud, after mentioning at the beginning of his post that he is quiet.

Nerwen -

Shasta -

Brinn -

Lommy - 'two wolves are easy to find' is an interesting thing to say, I would have thought the fewer wolves there are the harder they are to find.

Mith -

Nilp -

Greenie -

One thing I will say outside all this. Don't underestimate a Cobbler. Alright, so my experience with them is very different to most as I owe my win in one game to a very impressive Cobbler attack, but that just proves the point. The wolves are the main target it's agreed, but the Cobblers may not be as unthreatening as some people seem to think.

Gah, I have to go out, this is as far as I've got which is why it looks quite so unfinished. I'm at post 60 of Day 1 at the moment, I'll finish it off when I get back.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kath

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Yes. Self centered and arrogant (no offence meant, btw). But anyway, I digress here.

Hello Kath!

*goes into action mode*

OK, where was I?

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I like Day Twos. They're highly educational.

Yes, you get to find out what people think about Day 1. The only problem is that, with no proper lynch, this is more like Day 1.5™ than Day 2.

Edit: Before there was so much x-posting, and now, nothing.