Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Let me help you.

++Gollum

We have too many slackers in this game, and I don't agree with Nogrod that just because it wouldn't make an honorable win, they aren't evil - especially in that one's case.

I do agree with you about slackers and I'd like to see werewolf with only non-slackers on board as it would be much more interesting and fun that way when one doesn't have to just quess like in a lottery but one could actually try to figure things out about everyone with substantial posting. You know we agree on this matter.

But as it is my last Day here I must say it aloud: your vote is soo easy. Playing on a principle and getting out of the trouble early enough?

If my future were less clear I might have accepted that and even voted with you just to see a more "graspable" game on Days to come whatever the result... but now I'm inclined to point this out. Your voting record really bothers me Rikae. First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Looks more like a baddie-Rikae than an ordo version of you...

EDit: X'd with Eomer and Fea

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear. I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

[Rikae]

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it... which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)

EDIT: By "reveal him/herself" I mean tip the baddies off by being too obvious - not actually revealing.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it...

It's very probable indeed. In the last game Rune was the seer and only picked the quiet ones assuming the loud ones would talk themselves into trouble sooner or later.

So do not count on that - not to say of trying to persuade us of it - as different seers have different tactics!

But to be honest your point looks wolfy indeed...

Originally Posted by Rikae

which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)

I must have missed something as this doesn't make any sense to me... What are you trying to say here? Sorry, but I just can't grasp this. To what are you referring to?

I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!

So where does all this speculation come from?

I'm getting really afraid of you Rikae - or at least very much baffled.

EDIT: X'd from #416

[Rikae]

Once agan, Nog, you're barking up the wrong tree - and I hate to see you wasting what's probably your last day here looking at me.

Different seers have different tactics - sure - but the majority tend to choose loud players who are considered dangerous or hard to read, especially when they attract a lot of attention, as I have done (on a slightly OT note, why am I everyone's "random" vote choice in this game?)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!

Di made a point of saying that there were no werewolves, that this was a "lovers game". I assume that means all our baddies are "lovers", and, to be any use at all, the seer can see them.
The baddies could also conclude I've probably been dreamt of, for the same reasons I can conclude it. Plenty of people have been after me by Day, every Day - where have you been? I hope the seer doesn't come forward to defend me, which was part of my point.

EDIT: X'd with Nog

[Nogrod]

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

Like I said earlier, I've put him at a lower level of suspicion because he seemed calm and didn't overreact to accusations.
In addition, I'll also mention (sorry to bring in meta-things) that he's hosting a party tonight and hasn't really slept in two days, so when he turns up he probably will just vote (if that) and go to bed. I wouldn't want to go after him when he couldn't defend himself, personally.

[Gollum the Great]

Ok. Aganzir, you suspect me because (from those two links)

1) I am wary of three people.

2) Because you seem to think I give weak reasons for being wary.

3) Because I considered you excited.

4) Because I voted Lommy because I didn't trust her. I got the idea (now I may be wrong) from last game that it is better to vote than not. I had almost no grounds to vote anyone else, and I could have voted you.

5) Because I seem to be going with the flow of the other players.


Are those your reasons for suspecting me? If you consider me to be going with the other players, I ask you how anyone can do that since the range of opinions and suspicions is so wide and varied. I see nothing wrong in considering you excited, being wary of 3 players, or of giving lame reasons for being wary (I mean, I didn't want to vote for those people).

If there is anything I left out, please notify me.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm tired. Gan i' bed, ken?

I won't vote for Macalaure, purely because people would see it as a spite vote. Instead I will vote for the other person incriminated by my somewhat arbitrary Nogrod-theory.

++A LITTLE GREEN

I can't go with feelings because I'm sure Greenie is capable of displaying an air of nonchalance over any hidden evil. I can handle only so much suspicion based on feelings this early in the game. Nogrod was attacked, you have to ask why. Think about Kitanna too. Build theories around facts, don't just see the malice wherever you will.

Fully aware of the hypocrisy there relating to my vote on Day 2 ( ) but there's more to go on today.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Oh dear. I see a dangerous bandwagon forming. Not that there are no points against Gollum but don't let today's voting be wasted. Pick your own vote; don't let others do it for you.

Eomer has a good point here but somehow it makes me feel a bit uneasy. I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.
If this was a traditional ww game with a pack of wolves, I'd say Eomer was trying to discourage voting Gollum. But if he was Gollum's lover, there would be no sense in defending him in such a subtle way.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.

What exactly are those reasons?

edit: xed with Rikae & Eomer

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

If you know who's a bad guy and enough people vote for that player, the bad guys can't band together to save him or her. Sole benefit.

[Gwathagor]

True. But that hardly merits Aganzir's use of the plural!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

Is that the only reason you voted him?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Is that the only reason you voted him?

Nope, because he's been following other people's suspicions too much and being completely unhelpful, his only interest seems to be self preservation, and because he doesn't like rock music*.


*Yes, that last one was a joke. So there.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath. One reason that comes to mind is that a lot of people may find the same person supicious because that person is suspicious... :P

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Agan

What exactly are those reasons?

It'll all come out in the wash.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.

You were still suggesting I would. I've been around long enough to know Agan is a formidible player and one who will retaliate. Good or evil, why would I go after her in the first place if I didn't think there was a case (except, of course, to judge her by her reaction)?

Originally Posted by Nog

And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).

I'm not buying this theory (in part because the narration hasn't suggested it at all, and in part because I just don't see 8 suspicious people in this village.)
Fact is, since I think there are relatively few baddies among us, I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

EDIT: X'd with Fea, Gwath and Agan

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

Weirdly, I support this. I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.

Supported 100%! The game needs to be played. Just sneaking around is not playing but destroying the game for those who'd actually wish to play as they introduce the totally random element into the game.

Sadly this is my last Day so I hope you understand I will also bother you who actually play. This is my last chance at this game game so I will have to try all I have time and energy to - and it includes suspecting you my dear fellow loudmouths...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm not buying this theory (in part because the narration hasn't suggested it at all, and in part because I just don't see 8 suspicious people in this village.)

That would be exactly the reaction of a baddie in here. Let's just lull us to the false security there are only two pairs of lovers - both killed when one is killed - in a village of twenty! Do you really believe we will believe that?

We must have had a graver starting point and the posssibility of different teams getting their kills through each Night is a possibility... or whatever it is. But Di would not have started a game of twenty people with only two tied-together pairs of lovers against a village of 16 with at least a ranger to protect them...

And you do not see eight suspicious people in the village? I see you all suspicious for various reasons! As an innocent I do not know the status of you others and I can't help thinking all of you suspicious. And even if I think Groin innocentish I'm not sure or easy with that thought either...

Originally Posted by Brinn

These attacks towards Gollum bother me. Some of what Gollum says is flawed, but they seem more like newbie mistakes. It just feels to me that he's an easy lynch target- a scapegoat. I'm uncomfortable voting for any easy lynch targets because most often they turn out innocent.

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.

Exactly my thoughts!

I know I'm being afterwise in this, but that was exactly my thoughs on you guys lynching Eönwë as well. Too easy.

If one of you McCaber, Gollum or Shasta is innocent you should be ashamed of your actions. Not that you voted wrong - all of us do it - but because you went for the easy target trying to lay low...

Originally Posted by Rikae

I suggest you vote me, than. You, Nog and Cabbie's "random" vote will tie me with Gollum, and, frankly, this game doesn't need me if it's as unbalanced as I think, and I'm more interested in proving you, Nogrod, etc. wrong at this poitn than in surviving where I'm no use anyway.

Hadn't you used that kind of tactics of appealing to our integrity looking like a hurt individual already before in this game of WW earlier I would take you for real and stand back thinking "this lady is honest". Sadly you have already used that card while being a baddie - and you fooled most of the people then - so I will not take any of that kind of appeal from you (sorry about the meta-talk).

[Rikae]

One thing you can't help but see living in the US, is that there are brands of religious fanaticism where a person becomes incapable of hearing or seeing anything but their own dogma.

I learned long ago not to waste my time talking to fanatics.

[Aganzir]

I'm too tired to stay up any longer so I'll vote now.

++ GOLLUM

I would still be interested to hear his comments on my suspicions, but I'm not going to put off voting him yet another day just because he won't respond to me.

Originally Posted by Gwath

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

Firstly, you often need a bandwagon in order to lynch someone.
Secondly, even if there's been a bandwagon, it's relatively easy to see who just jumped in without actual suspicions for the person in question, maybe so as to save someone else from the gallows.

edit: xed with Rikae, Fea & Gwath.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear.

I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.

Fea - and all others - let's remember there are at least two teams with different people in them. And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).


Now on the first Night the lovers operated they picked Legate and Lalaith.

On the second one they picked Kitanna and me.

It would talk on behalf of two sides if the one pair picked Lal and Kit and the other targeted Legate and me. So they have targeted two good players who tend to be a bit low key and two who tend to be the loudmouths. That's what the baddies have tried so far. Whether it's consistency or not we can't tell.

Also: if there are more pairs it would get more complicated but the basic lines of choice do suggest there are two teams indeed - and maybe the thing is that their interrelation is something we don't know? Like that they know each other but can't kill each other or something. Well, who knows...

Gah... I seem to have X'd with a host of posts. Coming back soon....