Who was the old man?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.

Originally Posted by The Might

No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument.

Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival.

While an interesting idea, no, I don't actually find it much plausible. The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".

[The Might]

I doubt that Legate...
I actually believe Gandalf wanted Shadowfax to come and collect the horses needed for the journey.
Take a loot at these quotes from LotR:

'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend,' he said; 'but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in this world again!'

'Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?'
'Yes, I knew,' said the wizard. 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!'

So it seems that Gandalf did use his mind powers, as seen in Ósanwe-kenta to ask Shadowfax to ride to the edge of Fangorn.
And it seems that even Aragorn was uncertain whether the horses "fled at first in fear". I actually believe that whilst the three were distracted with this vision Shadowfax came by and took the horses with him. I mean, who wouldn't leave if your king rode around?!


Also, take a look here:

Remember the words of Éomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!' 'I mark them,' said Aragorn. 'But I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood. Still I do not doubt that you guess right, and that we are in peril here, by night or day.

'I see, I see now!' hissed Gimli. 'Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.'

They could not see his face: he was hooded, and above the hood he wore a wide-brimmed hat, so that all his features were over-shadowed, except for the end of his nose and his grey beard.

It seems that Gandalf looked just like the men seen the night before, although he was now hooded - something that may have not been noticed by Aragorn.

So yeah, I hope all that makes sense, enough argumentating for today and all in all I stick to the idea that it was a vision sent by Galadriel.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".

I like this idea. The horses may well have been spooked by the old man, and then kept from running off completely by the appearance of Shadowfax.

Of course the other possibility is that, if the old man is in fact a phantom, that he did not appear to the horses at all and their only encounter was with Shadowfax.

In any case, it makes no real sense for either Gandalf or Radagast to run off when invited by Aragorn to join the party. Only Saruman makes sense here, and he has the best motivation to be there (in physical or phantom form), since he is trying to find out what happened to his Orc party...

[The Might]

That's a good find, alatar!
So definitely Saruman did come near Fangorn, the problem is I still don't see why he would not do anything but vanish upon seein Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. That somehow does not seem to make sense for me... what if they knew more of what happened to the Orcs? Why would he not use his voice to talk to them and learn more? Makes no sense...

So I still believe it was a vision...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Might

That's a good find, alatar!
So definitely Saruman did come near Fangorn, the problem is I still don't see why he would not do anything but vanish upon seein Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. That somehow does not seem to make sense for me... what if they knew more of what happened to the Orcs? Why would he not use his voice to talk to them and learn more? Makes no sense...

So I still believe it was a vision...

If you come to Fangorn and find your orcs slain and you get filled with doubt, then you might not be willing to face Aragorn by your self. I do belive that Saruman could have defeated the three, but who is to say if he held the same belief. . .

[The Might]

Well it said Saruman was asking himself whether the Ring had been used in the battle or if Theoden had it and had learned of its powers and so returned to Isengard in order to double and treble his efforts against Rohan.

However, it still makes no sense. Of course it is plausible that Saruman being in the area came along said "Boo!" to the horses and left, but I just can't believe it.

Maybe it was a phantom after all:

Say, are you not a wizard, some spy from Saruman, or phantoms of his craft? Speak now and be swift!'
'We are no phantoms,' said Aragorn, 'nor do your eyes cheat you.

'I wish to see him and learn if he really looks like you.'
'And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf. 'Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?

So it seems that actually there were phantoms of Saruman's craft and as Gandalf says Saruman could disguise himself.

Such a difficult topic...

[alatar]

If this 'phantom' ability exists, is it ever used before or after this event? Why I have trouble believing it exists is that Gandalf doesn't use it or comment on it as an 'ability,' nor do we see it used when it would be very convenient to do so.

Kinda like Peter Jackson's Saruman's fireball spell that was absent went he was attacked by creatures comprised of wood.

[The Might]

Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it?

A very very interesting thing I just found out is this:

'He wore a ring on his finger. [...] For Saruman the White is, as some of you know, the greatest of my craft, and was the leader in the White Council.... But Saruman long studied the arts of the Enemy, and was thus often able to defeat him; and the lore of rings was one of his chief studies. He knew much of the history [of the rings of power >] of the Nine Rings and the Seven, and somewhat even of the Three and the One; and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making. ~ HOME7

If he had indeed come close to the secret of the making of the Rings of Power, that shows his Ring wasn't that weak at all... so why not believe he could conjure up phantoms unknown to Gandalf.

Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.

[alatar]

It's over...though oddly expressed.

Originally Posted by Gandalf the White in Fangorn

He <Saruman> was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not.

And later:

'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.'

What's odd is the two statements seem to be at odds, as the first seems definitive while the second a guess.