Dwarves are not heroes?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

the LR which brought Dwarves (or at least Durin's Folk) solidly into the 'mostly good' column in later Silmarillion texts.

Is there such a column? It always seemed to me Tolkien painted all his "races" with a certain moral ambiguity, although each deals with this differently. Even the elves - if they seem "mostly good" in LoTR, they have a dark enough past and give the appearance of a people who have learned from their history, with the combination of wisdom and restraint, a sort of refinement, which is different from the - youth? vigor? - of groups that have never questioned themselves. Dwarves are more straightforward, perhaps; more prone to justify past errors rather than mourn them - but now I'm getting dangerously close to drawing 7th age comparisons, so I'll be quiet.

To tie it back to heroism, I've always seen something heroic about this touch of tragedy - for instance, among the Dúnedain and the elves - of having risen above a darker past, though unable to undo it/recover what was destroyed, and that is something which I haven't seen portrayed in dwarves (although I haven't read all there is to read, so I might indeed have missed it).

Originally Posted by WCH

(There is a hint iof evidence, IMO, that during the writing of The Hobbit and the earliest stages of writing the LR, Tolkien envisioned the Misty Mountains as identical to the Ered Luin; there was a subsequent displacemant of the Third Age geography to the eastward.)

This might amount to a hijack (spin off thread?) but that's interesting - I had wondered if that was possible, myself. What evidence are you thinking of?

[Aiwendil]

It's worth pointing out that in the War of the Last Alliance Dwarves fought on Sauron's side

Not many, though:

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yeah, but you can bet that the ones who weren't fighting were making a fortune in the arms trade.......

The fact that "few fought upon either side" is significant in itself. Dwarves (mostly) just don't do causes.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Yeah, but you can bet that the ones who weren't fighting were making a fortune in the arms trade.......

Yes, Tolkien does mention shady Dwarves doing a brisk arms trade with Orcs in 'The Hobbit'.

[Groin Redbeard]

First off, I would like to thank Kent2010 for coming up with such an original topic. I hope that this thread won't die anytime soon!

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The fact that "few fought upon either side" is significant in itself. Dwarves (mostly) just don't do causes.

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival. A good king must look after his subjects first and foremost, otherwise he loses respect and is no longer considered a good king. When Aule made the Dwarves it is stated that he made them hardier than any other race; this does not just pertain to their physical aspects but also their attitudes: they are wary of strangers and this means potential threats.

Dwarves are quick to anger and to friendship. A very hasty folk, treat them with kindness and they will be your friends, treat them with harshness and they will not forget it. We see this example with Mim when Turin and company force him to keep them in his home at Amon Rudh. Mîm tolerates the outlaws, and although he never loves Túrin, the dwarf at least comes to respect him, though not his companions. I'm sure I don't need to remind y'all how Mim had his revenge on Turin and his friends.

Dwarves may be invested in their own self interest, but this doesn't mean that they won't fight for a cause. WCH points out well that some Dwarves fought against Sauron in the Last Alliance (it is interesting to know, however, that when Sauron first emerged from Mordor the Dwarves simply locked themselves up in their impenetrable underground halls)as well as against Morgoth at The Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

When Tolkien talks about Dwarves not being heroes, my interpretation is that they will not do anything hasty for others. It wouldn't be in their best interest to put themselves out on a limb for Bilbo in the dragon's lair without good reason. After all what good will it do? Not to say that they won't put themselves out on a limb for someone at all, the War of Dwarves and Orcs is an example of that; even if it was to avenge one of their own.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There is also a practical reason for dwarves reluctance
to become involved in others affairs, the combination of
their "hastiness" when provoked and slow birth rate.
Even more then elves, they can't afford the sort of losses
men or orcs can in protracted wars. (In a way reminiscent
of Germany's problem as World War II dragged on, vis-a-vis
the U.S.S.R. and U.S.A.).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

There is also a practical reason for dwarves reluctance
to become involved in others affairs, the combination of
their "hastiness" when provoked and slow birth rate.
Even more then elves, they can't afford the sort of losses
men or orcs can in protracted wars. .

True, a good point. Still, dwarves often fought in the early stages of First Age with the orcs against the elves. I read something about that in the first volume of HoME. Something about Tu, a wizard, and him being almost a shepherd to the early elves and men, but his kingdom was broken up by an army of Easterlings and Dwarves. I'll look that up and see if it is of any consequence to the discussion here.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting thread on that Hobbit comment, a couple of points to throw into the mix;

In the translator conceit The Hobbit was written by Bilbo so perhaps reflects more of his personal stereotypes than otherwise. Saying that, Thorin of couse did prove to be a hero in the end.

Also Thorin's gang were a party of exiles, perhaps too used to living on their wits (and occasional coal-mining) to throw themselves too wholeheartedly into danger. Notably Gimli is the classic heroic Dwarven exception. One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.

I guess the contrast might be between, on the one hand, if you like, a 'hasty' hero such as Eomer, who is suspicious of Aragorn at first but is soon convinced and, you get the impression, would go into battle at the drop of a hat (OK I'm thinking slightly of Cohen the Barbarian and d'Artagnan too here). On the other hand we have the Dwarves, who are capable of heroic deeds but it seems only when they have chosen to do such things.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival.

I also think it's reasonable to ask do the other races really take up others causes? You do have the 'Last Alliance,' but speaking strictly about the Lord of the Rings, can't you call all races rather selfish?

Celeborn tells the Fellowship that Lorien's communication has just been with Rivendell during these 'dark years.' And of course you see the tensions between him and Gimli. Before recognizing Gimli wasn't all that bad would Celeborn have sent his army to help the dwarves and men of Dale? Doubt it.

I think Gildor has a haughty and pretty self-indulgent opinion of Elves that showed in his meeting with the hobbits.

Gondor and Rohan show a clear distrust and avoidance towards Lorien. And even though Denethor sends Boromir to Rivendell I'm not convinced Gondor would stick its neck out for Rivendell or vice versa.

Elrond and Galadriel play an important role in the quest, helping Aragorn, and in many ways breaking that barrier of distrust between the races, but what other Elves can we say feel the same? Legolas and E&E to a lesser extent?

The only strong bonds seem to remain primarily between the same races. Rohan and Gondor, Rivendell and Lorien (maybe Mirkwood?) and I've read that in times of trouble the Dwarves could set aside their own conflicts and ban together.

By the the Lord of the Rings at least, if someone can call the dwarves selfish, can't you say the same about other races? There are the Elronds and Aragorns who do think of the whole and show a care for all races. But there are also many Denethors who look primarily at their peoples' self-interests.