WW LXI: Grimm Tales

[Boromir88]

I really wish Kath would get here with the summary posts, I rely so much on that, instead of scrolling through pages of stuff. You know if she was evil she could twist the summary to her whim, because I do not double check any of it. I wonder, does everyone else not double check her summary posts?

Nerwen - funny and makes sense-ish, no reason to be at her throat yet
Eomer - his normal self ie bears watching
Lommy - to quote one of the greatest minstrels of our times, J.R.R. Tolkien: "immortal maiden Elven-wise"... except sadly not immortal!
Aganzir - is for once refraining from attacking me + makes good points = good
Sally - her instant has been an hour - suspicious
McCaber - making points and suspecting people, I quite like it
Izzy - nothing
Mira - nothing
Gaurcrist - nothing
Shasta - nothing
Gwath - nothing
Boro88 - amusing... but I'm really going to rip something or someone to pieces if he and phantom start a sort of clandestine co-operation again!
Kath - her normal self
Inziladun - getting hang of the game, actually playing, I like it
Fea - nothing
Nienna - making vague hints
Greenie - amusing but not much substance yet
Lari - fishy exactly in the way that attracts my Day1 votes magnetically (and usually is not proof of guilt.... *sigh*)
Mith - just made a fair point
the phantom - lack of substance and volume

There is nothing on a lot of people, but this was still early in the game, and of course all those "nothings" had not posted.

She like's Nerwen and me for being amusing. She also thinks Greenie is amusing but lacks substance. She likes Agan, McCaber and Zil for their approaches to the game so far.

Thinks sally is suspicious for her appearance. Says need to watch Eomer and doesn't like Lari's vote, and thinks phantom lacks substance and volume.

I can't see any baddie being tipped off that Lommy is the seer here. She mentions a lot of people. I haven't played enough with Lari quite yet, the one time I was the cobbler she was a super wolf. Eomer and phantom are far too composed to see any suspicion against them as being an automatic seer hint.

It is interesting what she said about herself however...maybe they believed Lommy was tipping off her role? "immortal maiden elven wise." If she was a maiden, or trying to look like one, that would tip off the robber bridegroom too.

In post 46 she tells Greenie to just ingore tp and me, because we were most likely just joking. tp said he was, and I can believe that, I thought he was sincerely dropping hints about his role everywhere.

136 is her next listing and the list is pretty evenly spread out. I guess the one thing that sticks out is in the evil list, while having a reason for almost everyone she calls Fea the "evil schemer-mastermind." If they thought they were getting the seer, this looks bad for anyone on the list, particularly Fea.

But then she defends my behavior while throwing a supicion at tp.

Well hishints are really rather boldly out there so it makes me wonder, as do many others who are throwing various hints around, mainly the phantom. This game is crazy.~post 161

I've personally witness tp in action as a wolf, and no matter what he likes to get the seer first. If the consistent Lommy against tp suspicion was tipping him off, he would kill her right off the bat.

The problem is I don't know if Lommy was killed because she was trying to look like the seer, or a lover. Since she turned out an ordo, I think it was clear that she was trying to fake some role to serve as protection. It would be easier to impersonate a lover, than the seer, and with the way she defended me from my attackers (thank you dear ), called herself a maiden, and generally defended me throughout the day. Plus, I was bluntly trying to hint at being a lover myself through most of the day, maybe they thought Lommy and I were lovers and were trying to take out two with one? But then why not me, who was giving more blatant hints?

Edit: crossed with Nerwen and Greenie

[Boromir88]

I'm on the fence about tp, I get what he was doing in saying that I obviously had a female role. Or at least I think so, but will wait for him to confirm it. He figured I was faking the lover status, and by emphasizing that I obviously had the female role, he was hoping to get the robber bridegroom to come after me. If so, then he has proven (at least to me) his innocence, but the problem I have is misreading tp's dizzling intellect. Plus, he could actually be a wolf, who believed my lover crap yesterday and is just waiting to take out two-in-one.

I have no good reason to feel bad about Mith, other than her posting yesterday. The frustrated, stressed out Mith, then come back recomposed is a classic frustrated baddie Mith. Also, she never asked if I didn't want to be lynched yesterday. I was used to that innocent Mith treatment. Of course people adapt and change to the situation and people's expectations, or maybe I haven't done a good enough job proving her I am innocent yet, or maybe she was just genuinely angry at me yesterday. Who knows? But just her overall posting yesterday is why I am suspicious of her today.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I have no good reason to feel bad about Mith, other than her posting yesterday. The frustrated, stressed out Mith, then come back recomposed is a classic frustrated baddie Mith. Also, she never asked if I didn't want to be lynched yesterday. I was used to that innocent Mith treatment. Of course people adapt and change to the situation and people's expectations, or maybe I haven't done a good enough job proving her I am innocent yet, or maybe she was just genuinely angry at me yesterday. Who knows? But just her overall posting yesterday is why I am suspicious of her today.

Yes, but there's the Shasta question. If Mith's a wolf and he's her fellow, I don't see why she'd be so hot to Fenris him... and if she's a wolf and he's not, she tried hard hard to get someone lynched who had just announced he was an ordo, and thus a Little Red Cap candidate.

I mean, she could have done either of those things just to look innocent, of course, but I certainly wouldn't want to bet on it.

EDIT"X'd since tp at #217,

[Kath]

Hey all I am around! Have been trying to sort out this meet with Lari and Mira 'cause thanks to the 'Downs and it's decision not to send me emails things got confused. By the way, those in the know, what are the real names of those two? It would be useful to know by tomorrow!

Anyhoo, hi. Am here, will be reading.

[Kath]

Right, let us have a look at Lommy. I'm thinking safe kill as I don't recall her coming to many conclusions yesterDay but it's worth checking. Speaking of which, haha Boro! Sadly I can't get away with skewing the analysis when evil, indeed doing that is how I get caught.

Lommy:
Banter but starting the loud/quiet debate. Heh, maybe those who killed her just wanted to knock that on the head before it started! Then the whole Lari's vote thing which did get resolved in the end. Did say would avoid Gaurcrist and Inzil for that Day because it was their first game, but that after that she'd go after them. To be honest, unless both those two are wolves and they sent the kill in fear I doubt that has much to do with anything.

List: Nerwen, Agan, McCaber, Inzil and Mith seem to be on her good list. Eomer, sally, Nienna and Lari on her not so good list. Early suspicion of Nienna there.

Why was scheme bolded? Don't think it's important I just wondered.

Asks about the thing between phantom and Nienna. Well that's interesting. Yes it could be just role banter but hey what a way to cover wolvish communication!

Talks about the votes. Not happy with them. Doesn't like Mira's (no reason), Fea's (deliberately bandwaggoning), Shasta's (joining bandwagon) or Nienna's (joke). It is odd how much emphasis she puts on Nienna's vote in comparison to the others. I suspect though that this makes a safe kill even more likely as, having seen the results of the lynch, the wolves weren't thinking she was the Seer after this. See, Eomer came up with the same facts, but in his case Nienna didn't blare out.

Mira, Shasta, Nienna, Fea, phantom on her bad list.

Now here's something. From the post before I'd have guessed that Lommy would vote Nienna, then suddenly she has a flip-flop and ends up voting Shasta. Eomer seems to cross-post a bit with his vote for Nienna and I wonder whether he was going for a safe position in a bandwagon there.

Did later switch back to Nienna but seemed to regret it.

So yeah, safe kill by the looks of it. The Eomer thing is interesting though.

[the phantom]

Okay, here's a list. As usual, I will most definitely not be saying everything that I think about people, for I am leaning gifted in a couple places and lover in another, and it wouldn't do to let the baddies know.

Agan- She comes across as good right from the start. She seems genuinely concerned about the outcome and seems to be playing damage control with her vote, which I can understand. Maybe not innocent, but doing a great job of looking it thus far, and thus should be rewarded with safe passage through the day.
Boro88- I got nothing useful from my read-through of him. A couple of his posts were weird, which probably means he's up to a few schemes, but I don't have the time to guess at them. I'm not looking to lynch him, but I certainly can't say I feel comfortable with him at this point.
Eomer- I'd like to hear more from him. Undecided.
Fea- Another quiet one. Good vote reasoning. But she could do that anyway.
Gaurcrist- What the heck? If he's another no-show today then he dies. What should we do about that?
Green- I won't be voting for her. No bad vibes.
Gwath- In between.
Inzil- Nothing ringing alarms yet. Seems to make sense, so I'd like to hear more from him today.
Izzy- I don't like a couple of her posts. In particular I jotted down that I didn't like the way she left questions hanging in 140.
Kath- Too early to tell. I need another day.
Lari- How much is she going to be around even?
McCaber- I like his play. He's either good or faking it well thus far, and should be rewarded.
Mira- I don't like her vote, and the way she "notes the hostility" between Mith and I is weird.
Mith- Too soon to tell. She hasn't shown her hand much at all.
Nerwen- A couple good points and entertaining to boot. Doesn't mean she's innocent, but I'm not wanting to vote her right now.
Sally- Weird vote, and then really quiet. Let's see more, lass.
Shasta- I dunno. Just dunno. Who would do that Ordo reveal? A good Shasta or a bad? And I'm not so much of a fan of his voting consistency. It's too easy. I need another day to decide on him.
the phantom- Prince Philip (aka Secret Co-Mod with Wilwa)

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, so I've not read all the way through the thread but....


Seriously? Nienna? Why, people? Why?



Back soon. Doing a friend a favor and then I'm going to catch up over here, so I'll be back with more thoughts asap. And I'll also do a vote tally, because I want to see how the poor kid ended up deaded while I was gone.

[the phantom]

I'm here, and finishing my read-through. I've read everyone's posts except Boro and Mith, so when I'm done with them I'll post a little something. But first I'm going to post the voting and give thoughts on that.

As far as Lommy dying- not bad. Not that I don't enjoy her company, but that's as good a result as we could hope for (besides a Ranger save). After my read of her last night I was leaning innocent for her, but certainly not Gifted. She seemed peppy and fun at times, but not nervous or jumpy. She also seemed like she had the village's interests in mind, but didn't strike me as someone with heavy responsibility weighing her down.

Anyway, Boro, your first instinct was right. I wouldn't have killed her. There were two or perhaps three villagers who looked giftedish after my readthrough and they would've been the first to go. Though I think Seer hunting would've been out of the question, for I believe there was very little to go on.

Back in a bit.

edit: x-post since Boro

[the phantom]

Lari ++tp
Boro ++tp (2)
Mira ++Sally
Mith ++tp (3)
Kath ++Lommy
Sally ++Agan
Fea ++Boro
Gwath ++Boro (2)
Nienna ++Fea
Shasta ++Boro (3)
Lommy ++Shasta
Eomer ++Nienna
Boro --tp (2)
Izzy ++Shasta (2)
Inzil ++Nienna (2)
Green ++Shasta (3)
Mith --tp (1)
tp ++Lari
Lommy --Shasta (2)
Lommy ++Nienna (3)
Boro ++Nienna (4)
McCaber ++Nienna (5)
Agan ++Shasta (3)
Mith ++Shasta (4)

Thoughts:

Lari's vote is weird, because she states she voted for me hoping that I won't be lynched. Along the same lines is Sally, who votes Agan because "she won't mind" and Mira, who votes for Sally because "she won't hurt me back". Those are kind of weird in my mind.

Supposing Boro is innocent, then perhaps Gwath or Shasta could be baddies sending another innocent into a tie for the lead.

Supposing Shasta is innocent, Izzy doesn't look great for hopping on the bandwagon. Especially if it was to save a guilty Boro.

If both Boro and Shasta are innocent, then perhaps Inzil doesn't look so good for elevating a fourth innocent to multi-vote status.

And of course the oft quoted Boro vote does sound weird. Why so confident about a bad result, and if so, why not give Shasta a vote? But seeing as Boro had three votes himself, I am more than willing to let that comment go, for I can testify to the fact that when you are under the gun, all you can think about is padding the margin of the leader, no matter how innocent you think they may be.

Agan and Mith tried to do in Shasta there at the end, and seeing as they had no reason to save Nienna (from a baddie saving a baddie perspective) their votes look rather good.

Anyway, there's more I could say, but I really shouldn't at this point.

Now, I'm off to try and read Boro and Mith from Day 1.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

And of course the oft quoted Boro vote does sound weird. Why so confident about a bad result, and if so, why not give Shasta a vote? But seeing as Boro had three votes himself, I am more than willing to let that comment go, for I can testify to the fact that when you are under the gun, all you can think about is padding the margin of the leader, no matter how innocent you think they may be.

The thing that bothers me in Boro's vote is that when he voted there was Nienna, Shasta and himself all with three votes. Nienna was no more on the lead than Shasta was. Boro's vote for Nienna seems as if he was very reluctant to do it and as if he had no choice when he actually did have. So, as I'm wary of Shasta already, I wonder if they could be fellows and thus Boro was working to save his fellow's skin in addition to his own. Or then an innocent Boro voted the one he thought was less bad out of two bad possibilities. Dunno what to think, but this certainly puzzles me.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

The thing that bothers me in Boro's vote is that when he voted there was Nienna, Shasta and himself all with three votes. Nienna was no more on the lead than Shasta was.

If that was the case then I think my tally is wrong. I had Nienna at three and Shasta only at two when Boro voted.

[Mithalwen]

Boromir, I haven't decided about you at all but if I came back composed it was due to a night's sleep and a dose of evening primrose oil. Go figure.

[Boromir88]

If that was the case then I think my tally is wrong. I had Nienna at three and Shasta only at two when Boro voted.~the phantom

Nope, your tally is correct. It was me - 3, Nienna - 3, Shasta - 2 when I voted.

I did think about creating a 3 way tie to see how the last voters went, but was reminded that we have Hansel and Gretel who can really muddy up the voting tallies. Putting Nienna in the lead would then give me the best shot of surviving.

McCaber and I cross voted, so when he voted he was definitely wanting to save me. He might have done it to throw me off a baddie's trail, but despite not posting that much, he has always been a good judge of character. So, that vote looks innocent to me. Also, I don't know, I just think wolf McCaber would jump at the chance to be able to lynch me, he doesn't come off as the Agan buttering up type.

See I disagree with you about Mith and Agan's votes, simply because of the Hansel and Gretel factor. Of course, Nienna turned up innocent, but with the finally tally being.

Nienna: 5
Shasta: 4
Me: 3

Any one of us could have ended up lynched. So, I don't think there votes look like a concerted effort to save anyone, but could be a way to push 3 people to a chance to be lynched because of Hansel and Gretel. It really looks more like votes where they didn't care who ended up getting it, and also Nerwen still had to vote. It might be known that her internet connection gives her problems, but who knew she without question she wasn't there?

Edit: crossed with Nerwen and Kath

[Mithalwen]

Boro you aren't making sense. If I were a wolf why would I have drawn attention to the Hansel and Gretel factor which everyone else seemed to have forgotten? Why would I have draw attention to the fact that Shasta had made himself a bit of a liability to the Village? If I were a wolf I woudl have wanted any other lynched and hoped that Shasta was Little Red Cap.

And on that subject since Nienna and Lommie were ordos that means Shasta, if he is telling the truth has a one in three chance of being Little Red Cap. Uneasy lies the head that wears the Red Riding Hood....

[Boromir88]

Yes, but there's the Shasta question. If Mith's a wolf and he's her fellow, I don't see why she'd be so hot to Fenris him... and if she's a wolf and he's not, she tried hard hard to get someone lynched who had just announced he was an ordo, and thus a Little Red Cap candidate.~Nerwen

But who said Shasta was a wolf? I have no reason to doubt his ordo claim, and even though he was not chosen last night, I still don't. It could be that they want to push for his lynching today. Even if Shasta is LRC what benefit would it be for the wolves to night kill him and turn him, now that the talk swirled around him that he really could be LRC? If he is, and is turned, he will be lynched immediately...so might as well keep him around as an easy lynch choice, since he already claimed to be an ordo, but people will grow more and more suspicious if he doesn't wind up night killed. I might have just talked myself in circles, but maybe you can make sense of that.

Plus it is Agan's and Mith's jump on his ordo claim that is suspicious. I mean they both seemed to over-react. I can see reason in people questioning his claim, but both stressed "Woah Shasta made an ordo claim! Watch the sneaky wolf trying to get us off his tail!"

Mith immediately jumps on it within a span of 11 minutes:

Err Shasta, if you are an innocent, is that really the most helpful thing you could post? Not going to be any Captain Oates acts from you then are there?~post 71

But she votes for Shasta not because of a real belief he is a wolf, but to play cautious and if he is an ordo than he could be LRC. But the problem occurs when she continues to go after him, because his reveal was entirely unhelpful and therefor it makes him look like a wolf.

Also I want to look at Shasta again. His reveal was so spectacularly unhelpful as an opening gambit I wonder if it is genuine. If he is not a wolf then BBW may well take a punt.... since they have nothing to lose. From the baddies perspective he is either a plain ordo with a 20% chance of being LRC or he is a gifted bluffing.

From the goodies (goody goody gum gum) perspective he has made himself vulnerable and a liability. Not quite sure that it deserves a preemptive lynch - though it is tempting. And he could be that gifted bluffing...~152

BBW will surely check out Shasta if he knows he isn't a baddie. There is a 1/5 chance of him being LRC. I am just saying that if we aren't more certain about another candidate, lynching Shasta is damage limitation. Assuming he is telling the truth. Ruthless but when it comes to it we haven't got much margin for error.~163

The bolded part is interesting, because there is an interesting change from Shasta being a wolf, falsely claiming ordinariness, to now making a pretty assured statement that there is a 1/5 chance he is LRC, so it would be good to lynch him if there aren't other choices.

If Shasta were a wolf then it was an interesting opening gambit to make himself so conspicuous. And of course it makes lynching him a better idea!!!~177

Then back to Shasta's claim that make him look like a wolf and it would be good to lynch him.
And Agan in post 80:

Basically that's not a good thing to say for an ordo since it narrows down the field of possible Red Caps and therefore makes it easier for the Big Bad Wolf to guess her identity.

Agan's reaction looks a little better, because it is not an over-reaction, just a scolding that it wasn't helpful. I guess it's the vote for him that worries me.

Where with Mith, it was pretty consistent pushing towards Shasta. She did get us thinking about LRC and Hansel and Gretel, but that doesn't make her look innocent in anyway, just helpful, and wolves can be definitely be helpful. Other than that, her day was filled with Shasta, and going back and fourth on his ordo claim.

Glad I was able to warm up, I feel like I am really hitting my stride after accumulating some rust.

Edit: crossed with a lot of people and really don't want to see who it all was with

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

As far as Lommy dying- not bad. Not that I don't enjoy her company, but that's as good a result as we could hope for (besides a Ranger save). After my read of her last night I was leaning innocent for her, but certainly not Gifted. She seemed peppy and fun at times, but not nervous or jumpy. She also seemed like she had the village's interests in mind, but didn't strike me as someone with heavy responsibility weighing her down.

It seems a bit odd to me that Lommy was taken out the Night after voting for Nienna, since she didn't show any particular clues that should have made her an obvious target. I guess it's coincidence though, cos otherwise it would mean some sort of complex scheme is in play, and at the moment that's just too much to try and puzzle out.