"How does one pronounce Tolkien?"

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I agree with what you've said, davem. Changing Cirith Ungol to Kirith Ungol, Seleborn to Keleborn and Sirdan to Kirdan was hard for me, and it's not the same. But then, when you read it again, it seems to fit better (at least to me).

As well as this let me take this as an opportunity to ask how you pronounce Smaug. Is it Sm-or-g or Sm-ow-g or neither?

I didn't think of this problem until when I joined the 'Downs, or just a bit after that, because it's always been just Šmak for me (the Czech "translation").

As for the others, I always took great care of pronouncing all names correctly, with the exception of Tolkien (only after learning its origins somewhere, everybody says Tol-kee-en in my home country anyway, there was even a radio broadcast where they said "Well, it should be really pronounced like this and this, but people usually pronounce it that way here, so I think it doesn't matter" and spent the rest of the broadcast calling him Tol-kee-en anyway), and then names like "Cirith Ungol", "Celeborn" and "Círdan", which I pronounced (and sometimes still pronounce, if I am not careful enough) as "Tsirith Ungol", "Tseleborn" and "Tsírdan". I believe that "Kírdan" sounds really awful, by the way. It doesn't sound right to me (the others do).

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

then names like "Cirith Ungol", "Celeborn" and "Círdan", which I pronounced (and sometimes still pronounce, if I am not careful enough) as "Tsirith Ungol", "Tseleborn" and "Tsírdan". I believe that "Kírdan" sounds really awful, by the way. It doesn't sound right to me (the others do).

Yes, definately. But maybe that's only because you pronounced it differently. I know that "Sirith Ungol" sounds much more sinister to me, and a lot of the time I still pronounce "Kirdan" as "Sirdan" by mistake, and maybe it's just because "Kirdan" just isn't the same.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe that "Kírdan" sounds really awful, by the way. It doesn't sound right to me (the others do).

I think that's an interesting point - its not simply a question of how you first read/'heard' the name in your head, but of what sounds 'right' to your ear. I think that will be different for each of us (& is another argument against any kind of dramatisation of the work - unless as a silent movie). Simply put, for some readers the 'correct' pronunciation, while fully authorised by Tolkien, will sound 'wrong' - & so much of Tolkien's effort in creating languages was to evoke emotional responses - Elvish should seem 'beautiful', Orcish should seem 'ugly & brutal, etc, but if the 'official' pronunciation of an Elvish word seems less beautiful to your ear than your own personal pronunciation, surely you should go with your own?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

For many who read the book in the original English though they are not native speakers, the pronunciation is coloured by the influence of their primary language. That means some names may be pronouced correctly, if Tolkien's idea is similar to the use of those sounds in that language. I have no difficulty with the correct pronunciation of "Sauron", for example, as it would be pronounced just like that in German. Cirdan, on the other hand, would be called "Tsirdan" in German.

I find it interesting that the Hobbit first names are least subject to mispronunciation - there's little conflict when saying "Bilbo", "Frodo", "Sam", "Merry" and "Pippin". Could this be part of the concept of having them feel close to us readers? I know the last names have been changed in translation in other languages - as Tolkien intended them to be - but the first names are quite straightforward.

The farther we get from the Shire, the more exotic the pronunciations get, perhaps? Is that a part of moving into a mythological world in the course of the adventure?

And of course the lingist Tolkien used various languages as models for his various peoples. The pronunciation is certainly coloured by those models.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The only word for which I ever had a quibble over the pronunciation was "Isengard," and the pronunciation of the initial I. Frankly, every possibility sounds wrong...

When it came to Elvish, it was grateful to Tolkien for having given Donald Swann his Gregorian Chant-like rendering of "Namarie." As a singer, I've found that music can give one broad strokes as to the correct sound of a language (if not its subtleties), because the rhythm of a tune (a well-written one, at least) places syllabic emphasis where it most naturally falls, and can make the use of incorrect vowel sounds difficult (sometimes downright impossible) to sing. The fact that Tolkien also approved of Swann's renderings of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" and "In the Willow-Meads of Tasarinan" gives further indications of the rhythm and pronunciations of Elvish, as well as Entish.

Frankly, I don't think I would have ever had any issue over the pronunciation of the hard C if I hadn't heard of the Boston C(S)eltics long before I read LotR, or learned that the word was properly pronounced Keltic. I know an awful lot of people here in the US have that same issue.

[davem]

The varied pronunciations given here are fascinating - I wonder if they are determined by people's accents, & the pronunciation of similar looking words they use on an everyday basis?

I also wonder whether people feel a kind of 'emotional' attatchment to their original pronunciations, in the sense that (as I've mentioned) when they revert to their old pronunciations they are 'taken back' to their first reading - rather than simply liking their own pronunciation over the official one?

On the Isengard thing - I remember pronouncing it "Iz'-engard' as opposed to 'Eye-zengard', & I'm wondering whether that was because, encountering an unfamiliar word you sort of attempt to match it up with a similar looking word - & the closest I could come up with was the first name of the engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

For many who read the book in the original English though they are not native speakers, the pronunciation is coloured by the influence of their primary language. That means some names may be pronouced correctly, if Tolkien's idea is similar to the use of those sounds in that language. I have no difficulty with the correct pronunciation of "Sauron", for example, as it would be pronounced just like that in German. Cirdan, on the other hand, would be called "Tsirdan" in German.

Good point. In my mother-tongue Swedish the correct pronunciations usually come easy and naturally. "Soron" sounds wrong to me while the authorized "Sow-ron" is what I've always used. In Swedish the three syllables in Tol-ki-en also come naturally.

As for the hard C's, I'm perfectly fine with Keleborn and Kirith Ungol. For some reason I like Keleborn better than Seleborn, but much prefer Sirdan to Kirdan. Although I too make the effort to get it right (when I know what is right, that is) I would never do it at the cost of reading enjoyment. So Sirdan it is.

[radagastly]

I seem to recall that after my very first reading of TLotR, I studied the appendices rather voraciously, thinking the story too short. I, of course, used the pronunciations "Seleborn" Sirdan" and "Sirith Ungol" etc. I also recall "sah-ROO-man" rather than SEH-roo-man. There were many other examples that I found that I was doing wrong, but the funny thing is, my head retained my original pronunciations through several more readings, despite knowing better. Then it began to evolve. Seleborn became Keleborn sort of on it's own. It's not complete though. I still don't stop-trill the "R" in Mordor. I use the nasal, sustained "R" that I grew up with. (See the movie "Fargo" if you want to hear a slightly over-the-top interpretation of my own spoken accent.)

The only time I recall being taken aback by someone else's pronunciation was in the name Tom Bombadil. I had always pronounced this with emphasis on the first syllable: BOM-ba-dill. Then I heard a friend put the emphasis on the second syllable: bomb-BADDLE. I actually corrected him before I realized that I had no idea what was correct. I still don't. For the most part, I let the names sing to me from the page in my own accent, and leave it at that. For the most part! Many of the movie pronunciations have taken up permanent residence in my ear, and will never depart. Luckily, this is one of the things that P.J. made a sincere effort to get right, as much as possible.

As for the pronunciation of the name Tolkien, I have always said TOLL-kin rather than TOLL-keen, and usually still do, even though I know better. (or is it TOLL-key-in?)

[Pitchwife]

As the part on pronunciation was left out in the German translation of LotR, I had to work everything out on my own in my first (and second, and third) reading. As Estelyn has said, the i's and au's never were a problem, as they have the same values in the elvish languages as in German, so Isengard was always 'Eezengard' to me, and Sauron 'Sowron'. I don't remember precisely whether I said 'Tseleborn' and 'Tsirdan', but I probably did (according to the latin pronunciation I was taught in school); what I do remember is that I pronounced the th's not as in English, but as aspirated t's (=normal t with a puff of air) - until the short appendix in the Silmarillion (which I read about 2 years later) cleared these matters up.
Stress is interesting, too. I first stressed Minas Tirith on the first and last syllables, Mithrandir on the first, but Aragorn on the last. Even today, I say PEL-lenor and PAL-lantír, when I don't think about it.
Oh yes, and Sméagol was more or less SMAY-a-goll to me, so I found it very nassty to hear him called 'Smeegle' in the Bakshi movie. If I understand Tolkien right, the correct thing is somewhere inbetween. Funny - I should have got it right from the start, as the Anglo-Saxon 'éa' and 'éo' both occur in my native dialect (North-east Bavarian)!
Last not least, I too first pronounced the Prof himself TOLL-kee-en, until I read in the Carpenter biography that his name was derived from German 'tollkühn' - so TOLL-keen, 2 syllables not 3, was the only logical thing.

Today, Celeborn has been Keleborn and Minas Tirith Mee-nas Tee-riþ for so long that I tend to find mispronunciations (my own and by others) a bit annoying, seeing that the Prof did his best to explain how it should be; and I certainly get more 'phonæsthetic pleasure' from the correct versions.
Now, would a re-read, consciously reverting to my initial mispronunciations, bring me a flashback of first-reading magic? I doubt it, but it may be worth a try. Ask me again in a couple of months!

[Hakon]

I think I prefer it as Seleborn and Sirdan rather than Keleborn and Kirdan. For all of them I prefer the soft C. It just flows better in my opinion. I keep thinking back to when I first read the Chronicles of Narnia and I pronounced the character Reepicheep's name as Re-ship. I still kind of dislike the proper pronunciation because it just is not how I originally viewed it. It is the same for all of Tolkien's work..