"How does one pronounce Tolkien?"

[Estelyn Telcontar]

For many who read the book in the original English though they are not native speakers, the pronunciation is coloured by the influence of their primary language. That means some names may be pronouced correctly, if Tolkien's idea is similar to the use of those sounds in that language. I have no difficulty with the correct pronunciation of "Sauron", for example, as it would be pronounced just like that in German. Cirdan, on the other hand, would be called "Tsirdan" in German.

I find it interesting that the Hobbit first names are least subject to mispronunciation - there's little conflict when saying "Bilbo", "Frodo", "Sam", "Merry" and "Pippin". Could this be part of the concept of having them feel close to us readers? I know the last names have been changed in translation in other languages - as Tolkien intended them to be - but the first names are quite straightforward.

The farther we get from the Shire, the more exotic the pronunciations get, perhaps? Is that a part of moving into a mythological world in the course of the adventure?

And of course the lingist Tolkien used various languages as models for his various peoples. The pronunciation is certainly coloured by those models.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The only word for which I ever had a quibble over the pronunciation was "Isengard," and the pronunciation of the initial I. Frankly, every possibility sounds wrong...

When it came to Elvish, it was grateful to Tolkien for having given Donald Swann his Gregorian Chant-like rendering of "Namarie." As a singer, I've found that music can give one broad strokes as to the correct sound of a language (if not its subtleties), because the rhythm of a tune (a well-written one, at least) places syllabic emphasis where it most naturally falls, and can make the use of incorrect vowel sounds difficult (sometimes downright impossible) to sing. The fact that Tolkien also approved of Swann's renderings of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" and "In the Willow-Meads of Tasarinan" gives further indications of the rhythm and pronunciations of Elvish, as well as Entish.

Frankly, I don't think I would have ever had any issue over the pronunciation of the hard C if I hadn't heard of the Boston C(S)eltics long before I read LotR, or learned that the word was properly pronounced Keltic. I know an awful lot of people here in the US have that same issue.

[davem]

The varied pronunciations given here are fascinating - I wonder if they are determined by people's accents, & the pronunciation of similar looking words they use on an everyday basis?

I also wonder whether people feel a kind of 'emotional' attatchment to their original pronunciations, in the sense that (as I've mentioned) when they revert to their old pronunciations they are 'taken back' to their first reading - rather than simply liking their own pronunciation over the official one?

On the Isengard thing - I remember pronouncing it "Iz'-engard' as opposed to 'Eye-zengard', & I'm wondering whether that was because, encountering an unfamiliar word you sort of attempt to match it up with a similar looking word - & the closest I could come up with was the first name of the engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

For many who read the book in the original English though they are not native speakers, the pronunciation is coloured by the influence of their primary language. That means some names may be pronouced correctly, if Tolkien's idea is similar to the use of those sounds in that language. I have no difficulty with the correct pronunciation of "Sauron", for example, as it would be pronounced just like that in German. Cirdan, on the other hand, would be called "Tsirdan" in German.

Good point. In my mother-tongue Swedish the correct pronunciations usually come easy and naturally. "Soron" sounds wrong to me while the authorized "Sow-ron" is what I've always used. In Swedish the three syllables in Tol-ki-en also come naturally.

As for the hard C's, I'm perfectly fine with Keleborn and Kirith Ungol. For some reason I like Keleborn better than Seleborn, but much prefer Sirdan to Kirdan. Although I too make the effort to get it right (when I know what is right, that is) I would never do it at the cost of reading enjoyment. So Sirdan it is.

[radagastly]

I seem to recall that after my very first reading of TLotR, I studied the appendices rather voraciously, thinking the story too short. I, of course, used the pronunciations "Seleborn" Sirdan" and "Sirith Ungol" etc. I also recall "sah-ROO-man" rather than SEH-roo-man. There were many other examples that I found that I was doing wrong, but the funny thing is, my head retained my original pronunciations through several more readings, despite knowing better. Then it began to evolve. Seleborn became Keleborn sort of on it's own. It's not complete though. I still don't stop-trill the "R" in Mordor. I use the nasal, sustained "R" that I grew up with. (See the movie "Fargo" if you want to hear a slightly over-the-top interpretation of my own spoken accent.)

The only time I recall being taken aback by someone else's pronunciation was in the name Tom Bombadil. I had always pronounced this with emphasis on the first syllable: BOM-ba-dill. Then I heard a friend put the emphasis on the second syllable: bomb-BADDLE. I actually corrected him before I realized that I had no idea what was correct. I still don't. For the most part, I let the names sing to me from the page in my own accent, and leave it at that. For the most part! Many of the movie pronunciations have taken up permanent residence in my ear, and will never depart. Luckily, this is one of the things that P.J. made a sincere effort to get right, as much as possible.

As for the pronunciation of the name Tolkien, I have always said TOLL-kin rather than TOLL-keen, and usually still do, even though I know better. (or is it TOLL-key-in?)

[Pitchwife]

As the part on pronunciation was left out in the German translation of LotR, I had to work everything out on my own in my first (and second, and third) reading. As Estelyn has said, the i's and au's never were a problem, as they have the same values in the elvish languages as in German, so Isengard was always 'Eezengard' to me, and Sauron 'Sowron'. I don't remember precisely whether I said 'Tseleborn' and 'Tsirdan', but I probably did (according to the latin pronunciation I was taught in school); what I do remember is that I pronounced the th's not as in English, but as aspirated t's (=normal t with a puff of air) - until the short appendix in the Silmarillion (which I read about 2 years later) cleared these matters up.
Stress is interesting, too. I first stressed Minas Tirith on the first and last syllables, Mithrandir on the first, but Aragorn on the last. Even today, I say PEL-lenor and PAL-lantír, when I don't think about it.
Oh yes, and Sméagol was more or less SMAY-a-goll to me, so I found it very nassty to hear him called 'Smeegle' in the Bakshi movie. If I understand Tolkien right, the correct thing is somewhere inbetween. Funny - I should have got it right from the start, as the Anglo-Saxon 'éa' and 'éo' both occur in my native dialect (North-east Bavarian)!
Last not least, I too first pronounced the Prof himself TOLL-kee-en, until I read in the Carpenter biography that his name was derived from German 'tollkühn' - so TOLL-keen, 2 syllables not 3, was the only logical thing.

Today, Celeborn has been Keleborn and Minas Tirith Mee-nas Tee-riþ for so long that I tend to find mispronunciations (my own and by others) a bit annoying, seeing that the Prof did his best to explain how it should be; and I certainly get more 'phonæsthetic pleasure' from the correct versions.
Now, would a re-read, consciously reverting to my initial mispronunciations, bring me a flashback of first-reading magic? I doubt it, but it may be worth a try. Ask me again in a couple of months!

[Hakon]

I think I prefer it as Seleborn and Sirdan rather than Keleborn and Kirdan. For all of them I prefer the soft C. It just flows better in my opinion. I keep thinking back to when I first read the Chronicles of Narnia and I pronounced the character Reepicheep's name as Re-ship. I still kind of dislike the proper pronunciation because it just is not how I originally viewed it. It is the same for all of Tolkien's work..

[Bêthberry]

This thread has reminded me of Lalaith's Cellar Door thread. There are a couple of remarks there that I think are particularly apt here.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.
I rarely hear Welsh spoken, but I do love the accent.

I've always enjoyed Lalaith's comments, however rare.

And here's a quote from Tolkien himself, provided by Piosennial, who always has her finger on a good quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, "English and Welsh"

The basic pleasure in the phonetic elements of a language and in the style of their patterns, and then in a higher dimension, pleasure in the association of these word-forms with meanings, is of fundamental importance. This pleasure is quite distinct from the practical knowledge of a language, and not the same as an analytic understanding of its structure. It is simpler, deeper-rooted, and yet more immediate than the enjoyment of literature. Thought it may be allied to some of the elements in the appreciation of verse, it does not need any poets, other than the nameless artists who composed the language. It can be strongly felt in the simple contemplation of vocabulary, or even in a string of names. ...Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that *cellar door* is 'beautiful,' especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful that, say, *sky*, and far more beautiful than *beautiful*, Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant.

full ref provided by pio: J.R.R. Tolkien "English and Welsh" (lecture, 10/21/55) published in - Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures (1963) and reprinted in: The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays(1983) by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien.

And, thinking of Pitchwife's comment here, there's also another related thread about Pelennor Fields, too, but alas I haven't the time now to find it.

Pleasure in the sound and musicality of language is so rarely discussed these days, or considered. As to the right and wrong of pronunciation, why, it's possible--or was once before universal media--to walk the mews and alleyways of London and hear different pronunciations every two or three blocks. I know a linguist who placed an English exile living here in Canada to within three blocks of his birthplace just listening to his own speech patterns. As I recall, he was not amused!

It's highly unlikely, I would think, that Tolkien as a philologist, would hold to the sole standard of "The Queen's English."

[Formendacil]

Fascinating topic, Davem, I must say...

Perhaps I was lucky as a youth (oh... does that sound pretentious! ) that, having swarmed through LotR and the Appendices, I was on immediately to the Silm, and ended up romping happily through that (though with the usual troubles of distinguishing all those "Fins" from each other), and though I don't recall the story or the prose sinking in much on the first read, the "Guide to Pronunciation" did.

I'll be honest, though... it was still a few read-throughs ere Seleborn had become Celeborn or Sírdan Círdan. It was even longer before sore old Soron had become Sauron, and Minus Tirith (as opposed to Plus Tirith) had become Minas Tirith. And then there were the Dúnedane--Vikings from old Arthedenmark!



Still, by the ripe old age of 14 when the movies came out, I was sufficiently inculcated in the "proper" pronunciation of those words that I was already correcting the pronunciations of other friends who, anticipating the movies, were talking about Seleborn and Soron.

One of the reasons, I think, that I liked Tolkien at that age, and what still holds one of the attractions for me is, precisely, the linguistic aspect. As someone who sings quite a lot of Ecclesiastical Latin on a regular basis, but who spent last year learning Latin with a Classical pronouncer, I'm particularly susceptible, at this point, to the difference that a hard "C" makes versus a soft "C." Although Tolkien may not have condemned those who pronounce the names wrong--a knowing bit of tolerance from the expert there--I like to think that, even if it doesn't matter, I'm getting a better, more authentic, experience by reading the words the way they "actually" sounded in Middle-earth.