What do the High Elves really think of Men?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

Certainly many Elves, especially Avari and Sindar, had no kind words for Dwarves and did not welcome them. The Noldor though, at least, had some things in common with them, and saw value in befriending them. Both they and the Dwarves shared reverence for Aulë, and a love for crafts of their own making.
The Noldor of Eregion appear to have had quite a friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, with profit to both sides.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Certainly many Elves, especially Avari and Sindar, had no kind words for Dwarves and did not welcome them. The Noldor though, at least, had some things in common with them, and saw value in befriending them. Both they and the Dwarves shared reverence for Aulë, and a love for crafts of their own making.
The Noldor of Eregion appear to have had quite a friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, with profit to both sides.

True. I could keep arguing, but as the point has now become one of degrees of hatred, it's kind of moot.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I think that it can be, particularly in the terms in which it is expressed by Lindir. Not only is he is disinterested in mortals, but he admits to being unable to tell them apart. The suggestion, to my mind, is that he considers himself, as an Elf, superior to mortals. They are not worth getting to know. Heck, they are not even worth the bother of spending time to understand their differences. And surely, when a member of one race regards himself as superior to another race as a direct result of the difference between the two races, that is the very definition of racism.

That may well be true of Gildor (and I am by no means suggesting that all Elves were racist), but I think that Lindir goes further. He is not just saying that he does not understand mortals. He is saying that he does not consider them worth understanding. He has 'other business' which is obviously far more pressing.

For a conservative, Internationalist Socialists and International Marxist Tendency are both sorely misguided, just in slightly different ways ...

The main point that I take from this, is that you interpretation the words of Lindir in a way jumps to conclusions.

Yes; he says he cannot tell them appart and yes, he admits that he has other interests. This is not the same as saying "you are inferior", he might be of that observation, but we cannot know.
After all people are allowed to have different interest. . . I for one cannot be bothered to sit down and learn the differences of all the cultures that seem alike to me, I have other stuff I would rather spend my time on.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

"Atani" - They where the second people.
"Firimar" - Well, it can be a bit condrasending, but they where prone to sickness something the Eldar did not suffer.

I think most of the elves hatred towards dwarves was spawned by their violent clashes in the past, not the other way arround.

I don't know if the elves felt supirior or not, I can sertainly see arguments for it, but I am not completely convinced.

[CSteefel]

While the comments of Lindir are interesting, as several have pointed out, they can be interpreted in several different ways.

More interesting to me are the actions of those Elves when faced with a choice about how to value men. Here we have significant extremes, ranging from Thingol (Beren is not worthy, although this is perhaps understandable given the lack of any Immortal blood) to Elrond (less understandable, since Aragorn is traced back to both his own brother Elros, and to Luthien herself through Elwing), to Finrod, who gave his life to save Beren.

It seems that the Edain were enlisted relatively early in the service of the Noldor, with Tuor's father Huor giving his life to provide a rear guard action to save Turgon, while Hurin was taken into captivity for 30 years or so during the same action. Thingol, in contrast, had little opportunity to appreciate men before Beren (or Hurin) arrived.