Enchanted Stream

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Personally, I doubt that anybody enchanted the stream at all. You might say that the presence of magical beings in the forest rubbed off on the stream, but I doubt it was anything that direct in Tolkien's mind. The Hobbit is much more of an old faerie story than LotR (which is more complex and mythological), and in faerie stories things frequently do not have any clear reason for the way they are.

Tolkien's thought process probably went something like this: Elves and other magical creatures live in the forest. Therefore, it is a magical forest. Therefore, the stream in the forest is magical.

I'm slowly coming around to a course parallel with Gwathagor's.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Basically, I would agree with Gwath as well. At least I am strongly opposing any idea that there was any evil being behind the forest river's enchantment. The magic just seems more "elvish" (not in the sense that it would necessarily have to be made by Elves, but as the type of good or light-and-shade magic of Middle-Earth). It has obviously all the qualities Tolkien ascribes to Faërie, and to the Elves (see On Fairy-Stories), this kind of enchantment which is dangerous to mortals and stuff like that, also similar to what happened to Thingol when he met Melian and stuff like that. So, in other words, I believe that if the Stream was enchanted by anybody in particular, it had to be the Elves, or some local not-directly-evil power, like some local Bombadil or even better some local River's Daughter (how fitting indeed! After all, we don't know about the hidden corners of Middle-Earth, do we, and somebody like that would fit here really well!!! And you may try to disagree!!!).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe that if the Stream was enchanted by anybody in particular, it had to be the Elves, or some local not-directly-evil power, like some local Bombadil or even better some local River's Daughter (how fitting indeed! After all, we don't know about the hidden corners of Middle-Earth, do we, and somebody like that would fit here really well!!! And you may try to disagree!!!).

The enchantment could also have been there for quite a long time, and who's to say Bombadil or Goldberry themselves didn't live in that part of Mirkwood at one point? Gandalf said Bombadil had 'withdrawn' into the Old Forest, indicating he once could have lived elsewhere.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The enchantment could also have been there for quite a long time, and who's to say Bombadil or Goldberry themselves didn't live in that part of Mirkwood at one point? Gandalf said Bombadil had 'withdrawn' into the Old Forest, indicating he once could have lived elsewhere.

Of course it's possible, but really, why are we always limiting ourselves so much? I mean, of course we are not supposed to make it a Dungeons&Dragons setting and fill the map with spiders' lairs in every forest and dragons in every cave from Lindon to Rhun (let us leave that for the creators of LotR computer RPG games who actually need to do that in order to cope with the expectations of their genre), but why to think of Bombadil - or Goldberry, which seems a bit more illogical by itself, as she seems to be one of the many River's Daughters, and she seems to be this River's Daughter - and especially if the enchantment has been there for a long time, who knows how many Melians have traveled Middle-Earth in its early days, and how many other spirits unknown wandered there in these immesureable halls of Arda! That's nothing against you, Inziladun, but I feel like I should say this - in opposition to all the raving fanfiction-madness, there is the opposite extreme of making Middle-Earth a mechanised world which is cathegorised and there is basically nothing unknown for us inside it. While the opposite should be true! Why not to give our imagination the space, here, where it is appropriate and not forced at all (in contrary to, in my opinion, forcing for example Bombadil or another known creature there and filling it with "the known" just for the sake of filling it)? "And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count" (LotR Prologue).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I feel like I should say this - in opposition to all the raving fanfiction-madness, there is the opposite extreme of making Middle-Earth a mechanised world which is cathegorised and there is basically nothing unknown for us inside it. While the opposite should be true! Why not to give our imagination the space, here, where it is appropriate and not forced at all (in contrary to, in my opinion, forcing for example Bombadil or another known creature there and filling it with "the known" just for the sake of filling it)? "And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count" (LotR Prologue).

Well, certainly in this case (and in many cases while discussing these works) nearly anything is possible. However, the rather distinct nature of my makeup forces me to focus on the likeliest explanations first, even though they may not be correct . In any case, I think Gwathagor probably has the right of it here.
But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, certainly in this case (and in many cases while discussing these works) nearly anything is possible. However, the rather distinct nature of my makeup forces me to focus on the likeliest explanations first, even though they may not be correct . In any case, I think Gwathagor probably has the right of it here.
But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

Well! Have you not been reading what I just said? I think I answered to what you say just here. I think I was pretty clear about "too free imagination" and as for "likeliest", if you meant Gwathagor, fine enough, but perhaps a bit too "limited view" in this case - there is nothing preventing us from seeing an agent behind all this. If you meant your Bombadil hypothesis, then once again, see above - that's not likeliest in any case, that, if anything, is far more far-fetched than my Forest River-Daughter theory (forcing the poor fellow in his big boots yellow enchant random streams illogical seems, hmm?).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well! Have you not been reading what I just said? I think I answered to what you say just here. I think I was pretty clear about "too free imagination" and as for "likeliest", if you meant Gwathagor, fine enough, but perhaps a bit too "limited view" in this case - there is nothing preventing us from seeing an agent behind all this. If you meant your Bombadil hypothesis, then once again, see above - that's not likeliest in any case, that, if anything, is far more far-fetched than my Forest River-Daughter theory (forcing the poor fellow in his big boots yellow enchant random streams illogical seems, hmm?).

Basically, what I meant was that I look for common threads in the books, and that allowing for multiple 'River-daughters', for example, when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it, seems improper to me. Speculation is free though, and I'm not saying anyone else is bound to 'limit' their thinking (if that's the way you want to consider it) the way I do. Like I said, that's just the way my mind works; I want to make things fit in ME. Maybe they don't, as an intention of the author, but that doesn't stop me trying.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

Of course she did.