Currency in Aman and Arda?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

*Here's a curious one: during the Orc wars one of the Dwarves (I forget who) goes to Moria and is heckled at the Gate by the Orcs who throw spare change at his feet and call him a beggar. So Orcs also have money and make business, one might presume...

As a sort of general remark, I did not mention it in my earlier elaboration, because I considered it self-evident, but it seems clear to me that the more the dominion of Men was coming, the more the money was used also among other nations: simply this "invention" of Men (as I believe it is, for reasons visible above) was used so widely and the Men were everywhere, so it basically became convenient to trade with the help of money (with the exception of the Elves, who I think would have stayed with their original way of trade). However, among themselves, and in some isolated communities or in the case of some pacts (Men of Dale-Dwarves of Erebor? Some Easterlings-Sauron?), I can see the barter system still working. It was normal in the Middle Ages e.g. for vassals to give certain sums, like tribute, in, say, horses. I can imagine some of the Easterlings giving tribute to Sauron in such way, for example.

And, of course, as for the use of money by Sauron, I have no doubt that it was just a wonderful means to corrupt Men, so I am sure that at least in the exterior relations, he would've started using it very soon. After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

The example with the Black Rider is a very good show of that.

*And when the Black Rider comes to the Shire he offers to pay for good information regarding Mr. Baggins, does he not?

If I recall correctly, Khamul says "I will come back and bring gold". I believe that this is supposed to mean gold as in money, not some sort of golden ingots. I also have no doubt that something like that would be expected to mean a lot for a simple farmer like Maggot was. One interesting thing I would like to note, it seems to me that Khamul acts a bit "alienly" in this way, though, basically in the same way as I would assume some, indeed, alien from space would act if it came to Earth, about which he had learned only from books, and tried to bribe some local people. Of course, it has to do with lots of things: Khamul was in a foreign land and totally alien (indeed) society, he tried to use the method which Sauron's agents normally use for the corrupt Men for the hobbits, he also had not been doing such things very often, probably; on top of that, he was a wraith, who knows how much of empathy for human feelings, including greed, was left in him; and I wonder if even during his life, Khamul did not live in still a "pre-monetary" society, especially being an Easterling and all - so the whole concept just would not be part of his "cultural background"...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

Not quite.

The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Not quite.

The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

Ha! Why did I never think of that? Shows how one's brain just does not connect things if it thinks they are unrelated... I always thought that it is some random English (and only English) proverb...

[Rumil]

Hi all,

nice find of orcish small-change skip!

I don't think we should be unduly worried about the thought that the coinage of North-Western Middle Earth was based on a Dunedain system of a thousand years before. An old-money penny was 'd' for denarii after all, which goes back to the Romans.

And the actual coins surviving isn't the key thing, the key thing was the idea of the coin, - a copper, a silver penny, or a gold castar. As long as they were precious metal of about the right size and weight, then anything was probably acceptable. For example the Ancient Britons struck coins based on Alexander the Great's designs, but these were weirdly stylized rough copies of the originals.

I imagine the Dwarves struck coinage, probably with a hammer-and anvil design or similar, but in the same size as the old Numenorean coins, as that was what everyone was used to.

Wonder if Sauron struck his own coins? What would be the reaction if you tried to buy a pony in Bree with Sauronic pennies?? Presumably shady characters might offer to melt them down and recast in more acceptable form, for a price!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Wonder if Sauron struck his own coins? What would be the reaction if you tried to buy a pony in Bree with Sauronic pennies?? Presumably shady characters might offer to melt them down and recast in more acceptable form, for a price!

Sauron's medium of exchange was the Eyero, I guess.

Really though, I doubt Sauron had need of his own coinage. I see Mordor as being even more of an example of Communism than the Elves. Think of it, the people there (mainly talking of the Orcs) don't even have names as far as the higher-ups are concerned; their assigned numbers seemed to be more important. The Mordor citizenry are told what to do and where to live. A free-market economy seems unnecessary and against the nature of a Sauronian society. What the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were up to was a different story.
When Khamûl told Farmer Maggot he'd bring "gold", I've always pictured him as meaning bullion. Notice he doesn't tell Maggot he'll give him "money". Pedantic, I know, but there you are.

[Galadriel55]

I think that Khamul promised Maggot gold, he meant gold coins, that being the highest coin type in value. As little as the Nazguls know about the Shire, they should know what to scare/tempt the hobbits with; they aren't that stupid. A chunk of gold would be as useful to Maggot as a sausage to a vegeterian.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Khamul promised Maggot gold, he meant gold coins, that being the highest coin type in value. As little as the Nazguls know about the Shire, they should know what to scare/tempt the hobbits with; they aren't that stupid. A chunk of gold would be as useful to Maggot as a sausage to a vegeterian.

Why? Gold is gold. A coin as a coin is only a representative object as concerns its issuer, usually a government. The Hobbits weren't bound to any particular type of coinage, they only used coins because they were convenient. I don't think Maggot would have turned down a gold bar. I wouldn't!

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Not quite.
The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

The more accurate translation is the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Thus

• It's the "love of" (or desire for) money, not the money itself.
• It's "A" root - as in, "one of several roots", not the "only" root.
• It's a root of many different kinds of evil (such as embezzlement, theft, cheating, illicit HGH/steroid use, tax evasion, burglary, etc). Not that all evil in the world comes from this one root.

Not that this impacts the main argument in any way, of course.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The more accurate translation is the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

an even more accurate translation would be love of riches, not necessarily money.