Istari and their staves

[doug*platypus]

Referring back to the original post, I would cast my vote for #3, that the staffs were both conduits and symbols. However, I would say that they were more a symbol of their office rather than their power. The main passage I am thinking of is the very powerful moment when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff and expels him from the order. Saruman is no longer one of them. It is more of a ceremonial move imho, although it may well have also served to limit Saruman's power in some way.

In reference to their being conduits, Gandalf on several occasions appears to use his staff to focus his power and perform some feat such as lighting fuel on Caradhras or breaking the Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Also, I'm not convinced that he actually did use spells on the Balrog after losing his staff. The closest reference I could find to his possibly using magic in the battle is the following rather obscure observation of Gandalf:

Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire.

These things could possibly have been seen simply as a result of the Balrog bursting into flame, with some inclement weather thrown in the mix. Glamdring and tenacity may well have been enough!

I like the idea of the staffs as a connection to Valinor. They certainly were symbolic of the mandate given to the Istari to act for and on behalf of the Valar, which Saruman had officially stripped of him by Gandalf the White. But as pointed out, Gandalf's white staff did not come from the Undying Lands.

[Alcuin]

• When Aragorn and Frodo watched the battle between Gandalf and the Nazgûl on Weathertop from the Midgewater Marshes, Aragorn said that, “It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops,” and Frodo could see “white flashes” in the distance.
• This sounds very like the “stab of white light” the Company of the Ring saw at the top of the stair when the Chamber of Mazarbul collapsed on the Balrog as it tried to wrench the door from Gandalf’s control.
• When Gandalf was wielding Glamdring against the flaming red sword of the Balrog, there was a “stab of white fire”. (Aside: there were flames running down the sword of the Lord of the Nazgûl when he confronted Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith.)
• When Gandalf broke the Durin’s Bridge, there was “a blinding sheet of white flame”.
• And when Gandalf chased off the pursuing winged Nazgûl to rescue Faramir and his companions as they retreated to Minas Tirith just before the beginning of the siege, Gandalf “raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards.”

All of these sound like lightening. At the very least, they are all some kind of intense, white light that the Nazgûl and the Balrog intensely disliked. And as you point out, at least on the peak of Zirakzigil, Gandalf did not have a staff with him.

• In TT, “King of the Golden Hall”, there is the episode where Gandalf silences Wormtongue’s deceits:

  “...I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls.” He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
  
  In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: “Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Hama, has betrayed us!” There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face. …

  I had always assumed that Gandalf produced the lightning using his staff; now I am not so sure.

Gandalf did use the staff when starting the fire on Caradhras, and his staff broke when he broke Durin’s Bridge, as doug*platypus has pointed out. But perhaps the bridge incident can be explained another way: “The Istari” essay in UT says early on that the Istari

…were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to … open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good…

When Gandalf fought the Balrog in Moria, although he was still confined to a “shape weak and humble”, it was a battle between two Maia, something that had not taken place in Middle-earth since Eönwë the Herald of Manwë fought in the War of Wrath. Perhaps in breaking his staff, Gandalf was signifying that he was putting off any pretense of appearing to be a Man or Elf, summoning all the strength available to him as Olórin the Maia, hobbled as he might remain by the restrictions imposed upon him when he left Valinor. That was his best hope of saving the Ring-bearer and the Heir of Elendil from Durin’s Bane; and of course, he died after overthrowing the Balrog.

Which leads to this: If that last paragraph is correct, and Gandalf broke his staff as a sign that he had broken his restrictions as an Istar, did he die merely from physical injuries sustained fighting the Balrog, or also because that was the natural outcome of his decision to “fight like a Maia”?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

did he die merely from physical injuries sustained fighting the Balrog, or also because that was the natural outcome of his decision to “fight like a Maia”?

I always interpreted Gandalf's death as neither of these. I think that since he used ALL his power to defeat the Balrog, he didn't have any strength to stay alive. I mean both inner and physical strength. I don't think that his death was a punishment for revealling himself as a Maia at a time of need - why would it be? Gandalf was went back to ME to complete his task, so I think that the Valar and Eru totally approved of Gandalf's choice. Just think - would they rather have Gandalf reveal himself once or let Sauron get the Ring? Cause that's what would've happened if Gandalf didn't stop the Balrog from killing the whole Fellowship.

[Inziladun]

One thing that I find curious is that upon the arrival of the Istari in Middle-earth, staves were not apparently seen carried by all of them by the Elves at the Havens.

The first to come was of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.

UT The Istari (emphasis mine)

If all of them had staves when the disembarked, why was Gandalf's possession of one noteworthy? And if only Gandalf brought his from the Undying Lands, perhaps that was symbolic of the fact that he was, ultimately, the greatest among them, as discerned by Círdan.

But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest...

UT The Istari

Also, the only occasion in which we "see" Radagast personally in the story, when Gandalf describes their meeting on the Greenway to the Council of Elrond, he is not described as having a staff.

I'm not saying any of this is definitive, but I do wonder why it seems that the staff was mainly associated with Gandalf, and not to the Istari as a whole, at least not initially.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If all of them had staves when the disembarked, why was Gandalf's possession of one noteworthy? And if only Gandalf brought his from the Undying Lands, perhaps that was symbolic of the fact that he was, ultimately, the greatest among them, as discerned by Círdan.

Also, I'm not sure about in the canon itself, but isn't the name Gandalf meant to contain 'gandr', the Old Norse word for staff?

EDIT: After some research I found this, which shows that the name Gandalf does mean "Wand/Staff Elf", though, again, I'm not sure how well this translates in-canon. But it does seem to me that Gandalf was noted for having a staff, which may suggest that the others didn't.

On the other hand, Gandalf was his Mannish name, and so "Staff Elf" may just show that because Men thought he was an Elf, they found it strange for him have (or need) a staff. Since they didn't know of his magic, I'd say they probably assumed it was only a walking aid, which I can't imagine Elves using, it would be a enough of a defining characteristic to make it into his name.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Since in a sense the wizards were "stewards" of Middle-earth, as Gandalf tells Denathor, my personal interpretation has been that they are largely symbolic to their office, as the steward of Gondor has a white rod signifying his position. Whatever the case, we do know that Gandalf wasn't the only one with a staff, as Saruman had one that was broken when he was cast from the order. And if Saruman is to be believed, all five Istari had staves, since when he accuses Gandalf of wanting greater power, he refers to the staffs of the Five Wizards. To me, it makes sense that they are emblems of their office, as Gandalf breaks his to shatter the Bridge as his own office comes to its moment of personal failure, and Saruman's is broken when he loses his position as the head of the order and is cast from it. But there is no concrete proof for my theory, only conjecture partially based on my perception of a vague similarity in symbolism between the staff of a wizard and the signet of the Gondorian steward.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I I think that since [Gandalf] used ALL his power to defeat the Balrog, he didn't have any strength to stay alive. … I don't think that his death was a punishment for revealling himself as a Maia at a time of need… Gandalf was went back to ME to complete his task, so I think that the Valar and Eru totally approved of Gandalf's choice. …

I agree. That’s why I posited that his death

Originally Posted by Alcuin

was the natural outcome of his decision to “fight like a Maia”

To clarify – and concur –, I was not suggesting that it was some kind of “punishment”, but rather the natural outcome of using all his powers in the “shape weak and humble” to which he was confined; and perhaps that would have been the outcome even had he retained the physical form he’d used in Valinor.

But since this thread is about his wizard’s staff, it has been noted already that Gandalf’s staff was an ex-staff by this point. I don’t think he was “missing” any of his power when he fought the Balrog.

So what did Gandalf’s breaking his staff signify? He did not intend to die: what would have been the outcome without the staff? Could he just pick up another one anywhere in the woods? Did the staff of an Istar need somehow to be consecrated?

-|-

As first conceived, I think it may be that a wizard’s staff was merely a “staff of office.” In Treason of Isengard, chapter “Flotsam And Jetsam” (remember, this is a draft of Two Towers), one of the earlier versions said,

Gandalf demands [Saruman’s] staff of office. He refuses; then Gandalf orders him to be shut up [in Orthanc].

Later in ToI, in the chapter “Voice Of Saruman” (again, this is not the finished tale of TT), CJRT says that

in the original sketches … Saruman was not in his tower, Gandalf took his staff from him and broke it with his hands

And footnote 6 to this chapter says that in one draft Gandalf advises Treebeard, “with the Key of Orthanc and his staff [Saruman] must not be allowed to escape.”

-|-


There are at least two other broken staffs in Lord of the Rings. For now, I impute no associations with the breaking of Gandalf’s or Saruman’s staffs, but I report them so that they might be useful to the general discussion.

1. In TT in “Shelob's Lair”, Sam broke the stout walking staff that Faramir gave him across Gollum’s back. This staff seems to be purely utilitarian. The description Tolkien gives us is,

   The staff cracked and broke.

   Compare that to the TT final published “Voice of Saruman”, where JRRT describes Gandalf’s breaking Saruman’s staff:

   There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell…

   And in FotR, “The Bridge of Khazad-dûm”, the description used is

   The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.

   My point is that the description of Sam’s breaking his purely utilitarian staff over Gollum’s back is similar to the breaking of Gandalf’s and Saruman’s staffs.
   
   
2. In RotK, “Pyre of Denethor”, Denethor lit a fire, climbed onto the funerary table in its midst, broke his staff of office over his knee, and cast the broken remains into the blaze. Here the staff, although likely quite old, was purely symbolic. Later in “The Steward and the King”, Faramir handed Aragorn “a white rod” as the symbol of his office of Steward, which Aragorn took (emphasizing that the office of Steward was Aragorn’s to bestow), gave the stewardship to Faramir as an hereditary office (the House of Húrin had at first remained stewards by consensus among the uneasy nobles), which he symbolized by returning the white rod to Faramir.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Whatever the case, we do know that Gandalf wasn't the only one with a staff, as Saruman had one that was broken when he was cast from the order. And if Saruman is to be believed, all five Istari had staves, since when he accuses Gandalf of wanting greater power, he refers to the staffs of the Five Wizards. To me, it makes sense that they are emblems of their office

I seem to have totally forgotten that in my last post post. That's what happens when you're on the 'Downs at almost 2AM...

Still I think my second point still stands about him being more associated with his staff in the eyes of Men. Because he travelled a lot and never stayed in one place, they would see him with his staff all the time, serving the dual purpose of just being useful for walking and as a symbol of his position in the order (which he'd have to take with him all the time as he doesn't have anywhere to stay).

Saruman, on the other hand, lives in Orthanc, and so probably wouldn't carry around his staff all the time.


As for the purpose of the staff itself, I'd say it did mostly act as a sign of one's position in the Order. However I do think it also aided with "magic", in particular the "non-native" magic of the wizard. I'm not sure what his natural power would be (it's quite vague), but I don't think the flashes of light(ning?) he used against the Nazgul at Weathertop were part of it, and I assume that the staff, as a symbol of authority, would allow him to more easily do "magic" that wasn't entirely natural to him. So basically, while acting as a reminderto (and maybe actually acting to) limit his power, it would give him authority over things that he wouldn't normally have, just as I think Narya would help him with fire.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

[B][i]So what did Gandalf’s breaking his staff signify?

Well, with the staff being the symbol of Gandalf's role in the Order, I assume breaking the staff effectively meant ending his role as the Grey. I'm not sure whether this means that if he didn't die he'd have to ask the Valar to reaffirm his position as the Grey, he knew he would die, or what it meant for the rest of the short time before his death. Would he only be able to use his own "native" power (as well as Narsil and Glamdring) against the Balrog? Would all the "magic words of command" still work?

I also think he would lose his authority as an Istar, so he wouldn't be able to break another wizard's staff or expel them from the order unless he was sent back.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One thing that I find curious is that upon the arrival of the Istari in Middle-earth, staves were not apparently seen carried by all of them by the Elves at the Havens.

...

If all of them had staves when the disembarked, why was Gandalf's possession of one noteworthy? And if only Gandalf brought his from the Undying Lands, perhaps that was symbolic of the fact that he was, ultimately, the greatest among them, as discerned by Círdan.

...

Also, the only occasion in which we "see" Radagast personally in the story, when Gandalf describes their meeting on the Greenway to the Council of Elrond, he is not described as having a staff.

I'm not saying any of this is definitive, but I do wonder why it seems that the staff was mainly associated with Gandalf, and not to the Istari as a whole, at least not initially.

I found this to be the most thought-provoking post in the whole thread, because it gives the strongest reasons to wonder whether there actually *is* an Istari-staff connection--whether we might just be over-valuing Saruman's possession of a staff and single statement about the five wizards as truthful of all wizards, rather than just momentary hyperbole (and appropriate rhetoric, perhaps).

On the side of "all wizards need staves," I'd like to just make the semantic quibble that Gandalf is singled out as using a staff, as needing a staff. Rather than implying that the wizards otherwise had no staves, this always occurred to me as signifying that Gandalf was somehow "older" in appearance than the others. One notes that Saruman has "raven" hair back then... perhaps he wasn't sent to Middle-earth as aged as Gandalf?

On the other hand, however, I wondered... if Gandalf is the only one with a staff on arrival, why did Saruman pick one up in the meantime? Clearly, not just because he got older, because Gandalf removing it is a major problem for him, and not because he needs a crutch.

The thought that occurred to me, reading all this, was that maybe it is because the staff belongs with the Keys of Orthanc--part of his badge of office as the steward of Gondor's power in their far-flung tower. Obviously, this thought owes a great deal to the aforementioned fact that Denethor and Faramir both have staves as their badge of office. What if, perhaps, this was not only true of the Steward of All Gondor, but true of any steward office holder in Gondor? Remember that one of Denethor's chief assistants in the rule of Minas Tirith was Húrin, Keeper of the Keys.

Mind you, that brings up the legal question of how Gandalf could deprive Saruman of a Gondorian office--although, I should mention, this problem still exists for the Keys, even if there is no connection to Saruman's staff. One answer is that, as the emissary of the Valar, Gandalf can "morally trump" the legal system. Another might be that, as Saruman's superior in the Istari, he can declare Saruman unfit for duty, and ineligible to serve a "foreign power." Another could assume that Gandalf has Aragorn's implicit consent, and that (as with the Palantíri, Aragorn doesn't need to be crowned to exert his royal prerogative over Orthanc).

[Galadriel55]

I think that when the Istari came to ME, Gandalf already seemed the oldest. As for the legal-or-not thing, Gandalf is the "stewart" of all of ME, and thus should have the authority to decide what will happen to Isengard. He has more authority than Aragorn or Denethor or both combined.
If the staffs are symbols of the order, then what do the colours of the wizards signify? I thought that colour has a corresponding rank to it, white being the highest. Saruman "renounced" his colour, but wanted to keep the rank assosiated with it. Maybe by breaking his staff Gandalf showed him that its either none or both.
I find it curious how Gandalf only has the power/authority to break Saruman's staff and kick him out of the order when he becomes white. It could be because until that time Saruman was still superior to Gandalf, no matter how corrupted he got. It is possible that when Gandalf was sent back he received more power/authority that Saruman had, or at least the same amount. An inferior can't kick out his boss, but an equal can kick out an equal.

[Alcuin]

I think that after his return from physical death, Gandalf had a few new things to deal with. One of these was certainly Saruman: like Sauron, Saruman had become a rogue Maia, and the ultimate ruler of the Maiar – Eru – was responsible for Gandalf’s return. Saruman was given “a last choice and a fair one: to renounce both Mordor and his private schemes, and make amends by helping” the West. (TT, “Voice of Saruman”) He refused: “He will not serve, only command.” (ibid.) This is pride, and if we look at Lord of the Rings as a Catholic book for a moment, pride is the first, primordial sin.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Saruman "renounced" his colour, but wanted to keep the rank assosiated with it. Maybe by breaking his staff Gandalf showed him that its either none or both.

I had not considered this before: Saruman willfully, knowingly, deliberately and repeatedly broke the rules under which he was supposed to act. What necessarily followed was his dismissal “for cause”.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I find it curious how Gandalf only has the power/authority to break Saruman's staff and kick him out of the order when he becomes white. It could be because until that time Saruman was still superior to Gandalf, no matter how corrupted he got. It is possible that when Gandalf was sent back he received more power/authority that Saruman had, or at least the same amount. An inferior can't kick out his boss, but an equal can kick out an equal.

I agree. Gandalf the Grey did not have the authority to act against Saruman, who was his superior in the Order of the Istari. Gandalf the White did have that authority, and apparently had been charged to deal with him.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

On the side of "all wizards need staves," I'd like to just make the semantic quibble that Gandalf is singled out as using a staff, as needing a staff. ...

On the other hand, however, I wondered... if Gandalf is the only one with a staff on arrival, why did Saruman pick one up in the meantime? Clearly, not just because he got older, because Gandalf removing it is a major problem for him, and not because he needs a crutch.

The thought that occurred to me, reading all this, was that maybe it is because the staff belongs with the Keys of Orthanc--part of his badge of office as the steward of Gondor's power in their far-flung tower. ...

...[T]hat brings up the legal question of how Gandalf could deprive Saruman of a Gondorian office... Another could assume that Gandalf has Aragorn's implicit consent...

Gandalf’s Dwarven name, Tharkûn, was said to mean “Staff-man”. He is the only one of the Istari in the Unfinished Tales essay that I can find who is mentioned carrying a staff.

The symbol of royal office in both Arnor and Númenor was a scepter, a kind of staff or rod; and the rod of office of the Lords of Andúnië was used as the Scepter of Annúminas, the royal scepter of Arnor that Elrond returned to Aragorn before he gave him the hand of Arwen.

As for Gandalf’s acting as Aragorn’s chancellor or prime minister, that seems to be their implicit agreement up to “The Last Debate” of the Captains of the West, and the explicit command of Aragorn from that point onwards until Gandalf “resigns” that post at the hallow on Mount Mindolluin when Aragorn finds the sapling of the White Tree. Aragorn does not seem to have wanted to reveal himself to Saruman (at the time, neither he nor Gandalf knew for certain that Saruman had been communicating with Sauron using the Orthanc-stone, though they might have guessed), so at least in demanding from Saruman the Keys of Orthanc, Gandalf was surely acting as Aragorn’s agent; nor could Denethor have objected, since Saruman in Orthanc posed a threat to Gondor’s defense.

It may be that Gandalf had more authority than either Aragorn or Denethor, but his leeway to exercise that authority was closely circumscribed. After all, Saruman’s ignoring the circumscription to his authority is why he was cast from the Council and the Order. The Order of Istari (UT, “The Istari”)

were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but … bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite … those whom Sauron … would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that when the Istari came to ME, Gandalf already seemed the oldest. As for the legal-or-not thing, Gandalf is the "steward" of all of ME, and thus should have the authority to decide what will happen to Isengard. He has more authority than Aragorn or Denethor or both combined.

I... really wonder about that. Gandalf tells Denethor "I am also a steward," but that does not mean "I am also a legal authority charged with governance in the absence of the one charging me with that authority." To put it another way, Gandalf is a steward, yes--but what is he stewarding? You say Gandalf is "steward of all Middle-earth," and I agree in a sense... but not in a legal sense.

To be sure, I agree that Gandalf "has more authority than Aragorn or Denethor or both combined"... but I don't think that's legal authority. In other words, I don't think, really, that Gandalf is "emissary of the Valar, and by reason of being Head of the Istari the chief steward of their authority in Middle-earth, which pre-empts all prior claims." In other words, I don't think Gandalf was saying "I'm standing here with the authority of Manwë, vicegerent of Arda," in the way Denethor was asserting his authority as "Steward of the House of Anárion."

It's a rather pedantic point that I'm making, but an important one in my opinion. Gandalf's actions throughout the book are not consistent with a "legal" view of his stewardship. Rather, he has a stewardship of Men's hopes. His stewardship is not to assert the Valar's authority in Middle-earth, but to keep the flame of resistance alive against Sauron. It is an important part of his mission that this is NOT done by putting his authority over that of the kingdoms of Men (and others...). On the contrary, he is an encourager, a persuader, and a bringer of hope.

[Boromir88]

I agree with Form's post, when Gandalf tells Denethor he's "a steward" as well, it's more Tolkien making a commentary on the difference between Denethor's Stewardship and Gandalf's. There are different meanings to the word and Tolkien is contrasting the two meanings by using Gandalf and Denethor.

(all quotes from Minas Tirith)

"Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mind and no other man's, unless the king should come again."

This part is interesting because Denethor is flat out saying he rules Gondor, he is the "Lord," and thus the good of Gondor is his only purpose. Originally the house of Stewards, in Gondor, was designed to rule the realm when the King was gone.

When Earnur chases off after the Witch-King after being insulted, the Steward, Mardil stays and rules Gondor until Earnur is able to return. Although, in this case, Earnur doesn't return as he is killed, ending Anarion's line and Mardil becomes what would be the 1st "Ruling Steward." The Ruling Stewards all took oaths to hold the throne and sceptre until a king returns. Overtime the Stewards took these oaths out of tradition, and even though legally they could never claim the title of king (as it was decided only the line of Anarion could rule Gondor and the House of Stewards were not from Anarion's line), they essentially ruled as kings and weren't interested in giving up their power. As is evidenced when Denethor said Aragorn's house was "long bereft of Lordship," and his "unless the king should come again" comment is far from convincing. Something that Gandalf notices.

"Unless the king should come again?" said Gandalf. "Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair and bear fruit and flower again in the days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?"

There's a lot of things going on here, but look at the capitilization when Gandalf addresses Denethor as "lord Steward" and then when Gandalf says he's a "steward." The former he associates with a position of rule. Denethor says Gondor is his rule. The latter "steward" Gandalf associates with care. All things are Gandalf's care, in fact he rules nothing.

Gandalf is pointing to the humbler origins of stewardship, as opposed to Denethor's idea of Stewardship. The humbler origins have a religious context of stewards being like shephards to their flock. Denethor's idea of Stewardship is asserting his authority in Gondor.

If I've read Form's post correctly, I guess I'm saying Gandalf is actually doing the exact opposite. He is using the humble origins of what it is to be a "steward" to actually say he's in no legal, or authoritative position. He rules nothing, but cares for all. And goes to contrast Denethor's legal position of Gondor, as a "Steward."