The Valley Forge - WW LXXXVII - Admin Thread

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I just posted on the game thread. Are we supposed to do it here?

I don't know. It's mighty difficult discussing the same thing over two threads. TP started it here, so let's blame it on him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't know. It's mighty difficult discussing the same thing over two threads. TP started it here, so let's blame it on him.

I'll ask again here, then. Was Rikae's death meant to frame Pitch?

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't know. It's mighty difficult discussing the same thing over two threads. TP started it here, so let's blame it on him.

I like that idea. I think that it'd be fine to blame a majority of things on TP.

The game didn't go exactly as I imagined it. I'd like to offer the Forgers a special apology, as the deck was obviously stacked against them. So sorry.

[Inziladun]

I think that's the best I've ever done as an ordo.

Thanks for the game, Foley! It was short, but well worth the wait.

Well done, village! And nice job, Pitch! I was not all that confident he was the KD (at least not til the end), but I got a trustworthy vibe off him from the start of the game.

ToDay, I just couldn't buy Nerwen's arguments, especially in light of the fact that she'd given G55 a pass in favour of McCaber.

Good effort Forgers, you were in a tough predicament with a traitor in your midst.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I like that idea. I think that it'd be fine to blame a majority of things on TP.

With your permission, o moddess,

++PHANTOM

Since he's responsible for deforastation, global warming, Al-Qaeda, ozone holes, the fall of the Roman empire, H1N1, as well as all the disappearances that occured in the Bermuda Triangle. And much more.

[Eruhen]

Every time Phantom posts, God kills a kitten.

Please. Think of the kittens!

[Galadriel55]

If I really regret one thing in the game, it is that I only left you 28 posts to analyse. If I'd have known what would happen, I'd post twice as much, even if most of it would have been nonesense.

And I'm amending it now, see?

[Finduilas]

I was the Sweet Heart. I felt so horrible proposing the idea of the double lynching, but I thought it better than just killing Pitch, which is where it seemed to be going. I hope he forgives the compromising actions of his SH.

I'm not going to divulge the special instructions without Foley's permission, though I'm figuring she would be fine with me telling. But it did not include the KD and the SH killing people...

[Nerwen]

I know the village expects congratulations– but for once I'm not actually going to deliver them.

Thing is, I know lots of you played your best, and all that– but it wouldn't have mattered if you hadn't, since the game was essentially impossible for you not to win– at least it was once Pitch realised he had nothing to lose by outing the rest of us immediately. This is not to take away from individuals' success in spotting wolves– I mean, to put it bluntly, I think poor Bom earned his Fenrissing, even if Pitch helped out. But the point is, it would have made no difference to the outcome if you'd all played terribly.

Yes, I knew you were the Sweetheart, Finduilas. We also knew Pitch was the KD by Night Two. In fact he admitted it. And we could do nothing because he could, in effect, self-protect! And by the time we'd dealt with that problem, he'd had time to expose us, and gain an ally– and by then he couldn't be modfired without simply confirming every thing he said. That's why Rikae and I tried such a desperate final ploy– because we were in a situation where the other side had all the cards and we had none– through no fault of ours.

I do not blame Foley in this, understand– it's her first time modding, and the rules were extremely complex and had gone through so many changes that I think everyone had lost track of exactly how they worked until the game started. The idea of the KD's role was that he was an undercover agent in a tense, dangerous situation– instead, the final version was, quite by accident, an invincible super-gifted. Now, in my opinion, if a player finds an unintended loophole in the rules that basically gives his side automatic or near-automatic victory, he should point this out only for the purpose of correction. That's really the only way these experimental games can be made to work– because there's *always* some oversight in the rules.

And phantom– I would have opposed your Plan even more strongly if I'd been on the good side. I wouldn't have wanted to win on those terms. I also don't appreciate your later using my perfectly reasonable opposition to it to construct your "case" against me–which was pretty obviously fabricated in response to Pitch's semi-reveal.

Yes, I'm sure I sound like a sore loser– but believe me, I've won and lost many a game of WW before. I know what a reasonably fair game looks like, and this wasn't one. I feel angry and humiliated and I consider Pitch and phantom's conduct as close to cheating as makes no difference.

I feel so strongly about this that I will not be listing this game in my stats, when I come to update, as a "loss", as that would imply the outcome had been open.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Folwren

The game didn't go exactly as I imagined it. I'd like to offer the Forgers a special apology, as the deck was obviously stacked against them. So sorry.

I think that's a risk of experimental games - Nerwen is right, Pitch was pretty much invincible, but I know you didn't intend it that way. Hey, at least I got to send in a night-kill pick of myself, which is kind of cool.

I suppose (if anyone wants to try this again) not having the SH as well as not revealing the traitor's role on death would help balance things. At any rate, I'd like to point out that although the village won, Pitch didn't, and considering that he didn't exactly abide by the spirit of the rules I'm rather proud of helping to ensure that. No hard feelings, Pitch, but you know it's true.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think that's a risk of experimental games - Nerwen is right, Pitch was pretty much invincible, but I know you didn't intend it that way. Hey, at least I got to send in a night-kill pick of myself, which is kind of cool.

I suppose (if anyone wants to try this again) not having the SH as well as not revealing the traitor's role on death would help balance things.

Or letting the KD ask for protection for himself, or making survival his personal winning condition, or having an extra evil role outside the pack whose identity he wouldn't know– perhaps a cobbler of some description... yes, there are a lot of ways this could be fixed. Or perhaps having an alternative way of enforcing the rules– as a general thing, I'm thinking that a way of dealing with the multiple-role super-gifteds that tend to crop up in experimental games would be secretly to remove some of their powers.

As I said already, I think the problem was that nobody, including the moddess, saw the full implications of the way the roles worked until it was too late.

Originally Posted by Pitch

At any rate, I'd like to point out that although the village won, Pitch didn't, and considering that he didn't exactly abide by the spirit of the rules I'm rather proud of helping to ensure that. No hard feelings, Pitch, but you know it's true.

What annoys me most is that, even as the game was meant to function, the rules tended to favour the village anyway– and that for some reason this wasn't *good* enough for Pitch and phantom. Not only that, but simple chance had already been on Pitch's side: because Rikae forgot the game had started, and my computer had broken down, he got to be the only experienced player around on Night One– so there was was no strategy talk and no advice on surviving for the wolf-cubs. Now, obviously, that's just something that happened– but my point is that it's one thing to push the boundaries when the situation is heavily against you, quite another when everything is going your way anyway. Finally, if everything is going your way, and you do choose to push the boundaries, I think it behoves you to show some humility about it. I'm serious, Pitch– I'm really not happy about all that dripping sarcasm towards us on Day Two. It wasn't like you were a real Seer who had earned your knowledge through dream-choices– you'd just been handed it. That's nothing to gloat about.

[the phantom]

The imbalance was actually why I proposed my plan the way I did- basically telling the KD to out himself to the Forge. The way I saw it, from the get-go the village was extremely likely to win (EXTREMELY), but my plan opened up at least the possibility of a disaster-

If the Forge managed to make it through 2 days of not being lynched, the game was theirs I thought. Make a lynch, nightkill, make a lynch, then kill the KD which would also slay the SH (I'm assuming the Watch-dwarf would've already protected the KD the night before- I actually had a way to ensure it but didn't have time to enact it before I left Day 1 **), plus have one person drop out of the game (I assumed from the start that at least one person would drop out or be modfired for non-participation).

Then bang, game over if I'm not mistaken- particularly if they could do a late ambush at the deadline Day 2 to force a double-lynch (with retractables it was a very real option). That was the only way I saw that the baddies could win (other than the KD not trying at all to lynch his partners, which was entirely unlikely). By forcing the KD to reveal early I figured it would mean the SH would for certain choose the KD and open up the double-kill possibility for the Forge and also reveal the KD to the Forge immediately.

Anyway, sorry if you were offended by my Day 1 play, but that was the best way I could think of to tweak the heavily weighted contest.

And indeed things could have gone quite differently if not for the Bom fenris job on Day 1.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I have to say, Pitch's trilogy-hinting was very clever

Yes, the first time I saw it I skipped right over it, but on reread- "Waaaaaait a minute...."

But of course my favorite bit of hinting he did was telling me exactly who he was in his opening post (here). I knew it was possible it was a Forge trick only claiming to be "Galin" to distract the Sweetheart or gain followers, but his actions backed up his claim.

---------
**My way of getting the Watchdwarf to protect the KD Night 1 & not Night 2 was going to be to say, "Watchdwarf- assume whatever name you receive tonight is the KD. Then you'll know who he is. Then the next night he will send his Sweetheart that hopefully has found him. If not, the name will be at least another innocent, which will turn you into a Seer" (similar to Eruhen's suggestion). But in my haste to depart for home I completely spaced voicing that aspect (but then I also saw at that point that it was unlikely my plan would be adopted, so perhaps that's partly why it didn't occur to me).

[Finduilas]

Seriously folks, don't blame Pitch for doing his best to win...

Foley and I have had a few back and forths about how to fix some of these problems, and she was rather upset at herself for not keeping the rule that the game ended, with a forge win, if the KD was killed at night. This rule would have severely hampered the KD, making him have to walk on eggshells.

Edit: xed with Pitch

[Pitchwife]

I've already apologized to Foley for messing up her game like that, but here's to the Forge: you played a great game, and I do feel rather rotten for the way I handled my role. Nerwen, I hope you'll be able to forgive me eventually.

Originally Posted by Rikae

At any rate, I'd like to point out that although the village won, Pitch didn't, and considering that he didn't exactly abide by the spirit of the rules I'm rather proud of helping to ensure that. No hard feelings, Pitch, but you know it's true.

No hard feelings at all - that's why I said I was OK with a double lynch on D3. My Role PM said I had to survive in order to win, and I didn't feel I'd deserved that.

Things would probably have gone differently if Foley had picked a player with a bit more nerves to be the KD. Truth to be told, my first reaction to reading my Role PM was to scream "I hate you!" (Not really, Foley.) I expected the Forge would see through me and off me after about two Days or so at the latest.

Night 1 began, and there was no PMing at all among the Forge except G55 wondering why everybody was so quiet and Bom apologizing that he'd forgotten shortly before the Day started. Not knowing the true reason for this silence, I got paranoid that Nerwen and Rikae were waiting for the KD to give himself away by being too eager to talk (à la the "first three posters" meme) and started wondering whether part of the Forge were conspiring in secret. Crazy, yes, but knowing you have something to hide can do strange things to the mind.

Then it turned out that Rikae had plain forgotten too, and I went into D1 relieved and ready to lie low and play by ear. Along comes tp and his plan of infamous genius, causing me to make that priceless slip about the KD's winning condition in my first post which I'm sure some of the Forge must have noticed, especially as tp was so kind to point it out in his reply for all to see, and I thought "Crap, they'll have my number now, I'm dead". Then I remembered that I could get the Watchdwarf to protect me and figured out that they wouldn't be able to kill me without painting the Forge brand on their own doors, and the rest is history.

The Night after Bom's lynch, I initially tried to pretend I had suspected him to be the KD, but of course they were too clever to buy that. That Night, the rules were changed so that the KD wouldn't be revealed at death, and the Forge cut me off from PMs (both with my consent) in an attempt to restore some balance to the game. Unfortunately, that turned out not be enough.

As to the question of hints and revealing, I find picking up hints rather difficult myself, so I had a hard time estimating how obvious or cryptic I was being in the eyes of the ordos. I was confident that phantom had guessed me early on D1, and I did of course notice the spreading trust in me during D2, but I'm not sure whether e.g. Mith really had no idea what was going on at the end of the Day or just pretended for the sake of fairness (I suspect the latter, though).

By the way, did nobody ever consider that I could be the Sweetheart acting as a mouthpiece for the real KD while he was lying low? (The outcome would have been the same, of course.)

The Forge's attempt to frame me as a faker by having Rikae accuse me and then killing her at Night was a stroke of genius, and honestly, I fully expected it would succeed and I would find myself lynched on D3, especially after phantom's 'joke vote' at DL D3 - I had no way of knowing whether you were serious, phantom, and there was a chance you'd go Zeus on me and help the Forgers lynch me for the sake of balance.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Finally, if everything is going your way, and you do choose to push the boundaries, I think it behoves you to show some humility about it. I'm serious, Pitch– I'm really not happy about all that dripping sarcasm towards us on Day Two. It wasn't like you were a real Seer who had earned your knowledge through dream-choices– you'd just been handed it. That's nothing to gloat about.

I concede. I let the pure elation of knowing and being trusted (both which doesn't happen to me all that often in WW) carry me away there in a way which must have been rather unsufferabe. You played admirably, and I'm sorry for offending you.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

I was the Sweet Heart. I felt so horrible proposing the idea of the double lynching, but I thought it better than just killing Pitch, which is where it seemed to be going. I hope he forgives the compromising actions of his SH.

No problem at all, Sweetie, that was a good move. But I'm curious why we never got to talk - didn't you guess me, or did you decide to let me stew in my own juice?

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

No problem at all, Sweetie, that was a good move. But I'm curious why we never got to talk - didn't you guess me, or did you decide to let me stew in my own juice?

First night I guessed Zil and Nerwen (it was random, I picked the first two on the list), second night I guessed Boro and Eruhen (I guess I'm really bad at picking up hints...) and third night I guessed you and Mith, though by then there wasn't a doubt in my mind. Did Foley not tell you that I guessed you the third night? She had informed me that no conversation would take place the first night I found you, but I asked her to at least inform you that I had successfully found you, and I have no idea if she did.

As for letting you stew in your own juice, since I suggested double-lynching, I might have been trying to not get involved.

Edit: (just adding some stuff) Someone suggested taking out the SH for purposes of making it more fair, but I really had no hand in the unfairness till the last day, and by then I would say I had little effect. I like the SH idea, other places should be balances though. Maybe not having the NWD-KD connection?

[Mithalwen]

No, I was genuinely clueness. I hate cliquey in jokes between groups of players and ignored all that stuff and it didn't occur that the modfire couldn't happen. I must just be thick or gullible but I just tried ot play with a straight bat and not be manipulated. And yes the only vague solution my fuddled brain could manage was that Pitch was the Sweetheart but did not really compute. Rather feels like being a pawn in a chess game rather than an independent player. A it sorry as I worked harder on this game than I have for years probably but in the end it turns out we were more or less shooting fish in a barrel which is rather disappointing. I think that is what freaked me out - I was working with what was in "clear" not what was in code.... By the end the only person I remotedly trusted was Boromir, and I never thought I'd say that again, and he wasn't around.

Hey ho ... It really didn't turn out as I expected and I feel for what a difficult time Foley must have had. MAybe moddesses should reserve the right to create and emergency Werebear,,,,

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Hey ho ... It really didn't turn out as I expected and I feel for what a difficult time Foley must have had. MAybe moddesses should reserve the right to create and emergency Werebear,,,,

That would have been pretty sweet.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, I knew you were the Sweetheart, Finduilas.

Did I do anything particularly obvious? I mean, I know I stood up for Pitch about the whole modfire thing, but that was because he really hadn't done anything against the rules. I'm not necessarily surprised that you knew who I was, but I would be interesting in knowing how.

[Inziladun]

I agree with phantom that the outcome of the game might have been quite different if Bom hadn't been Fenris'd.

Like I said, I really didn't see Pitch as the probable KD until very late in the game. I saw his "hints" Day 1, but then everyone had been talking about the KD.

For me, Bom led me to G55, and Nerwen's choice of McCaber over G55 led me to Nerwen. It was that simple, and I was utterly amazed that I'd chosen correctly each time. As a rule, I'm pretty hopeless as an ordo.

The KD setup reminds me of Eönwë's long ago Night Guard game, in which I was the "saboteur" wolf, secretly on the side of the village. If I remember correctly, the village didn't even know one of the wolves was on their side, which made my job that much more difficult. Maybe having the KD's sympathies unknown to the innocents would have helped balance things here.

At any rate, Pitch was able to bring about a village victory here, where I failed miserably in a similar situation.