Resurrection of Haudh-En-Ndengin thread "Rivendell or Lothlorien"

[Rumil]

OK, then

Greatest- could mean many things

Physical size - Lothlorien, as Rivendell is just valley-sized at most
Population - Likewise
Military Power - Likewise again

Is Galadriel with the white a more powerful opponent of Sauron than Elrond with the blue? Tricky but I'd imagine so, regardless of the rings as Galadriel is significantly older, had been to the Undying lands and was personal friend of Melian.

On the other hand Elrond might be viewed as a more active opponent of Sauron and better suited of course to interaction with the human civilizations.

Rivendell is more welcoming and supportive of 'allies' than Lorien, (even if it is located down a secret parth that even Gandalf has touble following), Dwarves, Hobbits, Dunedain etc drop in all the time (in elvish terms - at least once per century) whereas such interaction is extremely rare for Lorien.

Other plus-points for Rivendell, which I don't think overcome Lothlorien's greater size, population and Galadriel are-

The remnants of the Noldor, eg Glorfindel was a handy chap to have around
Renowned seat of learning and counsel
Elrond has close allies in the Rangers, but Celeborn's close allies are the Ents

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Elrond has close allies in the Rangers, but Celeborn's close allies are the Ents

I don't believe the Ents could be considered active allies. When Galadriel and Treebeard spoke to one another about the time of Eowyn's wedding, Treebeard spoke as if they hadn't met before, that the two forests, so close to one another, had no contact with each other.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't believe the Ents could be considered active allies. When Galadriel and Treebeard spoke to one another about the time of Eowyn's wedding, Treebeard spoke as if they hadn't met before, that the two forests, so close to one another, had no contact with each other.

Well, he also says that Elves came and talked to the trees. Lorien Elves could have come during times of peace just to visit. It's a possibility. They grew rather alien of one another by the end of the TA: each one says that the other is queer and dangerous, though really both are ancient and wise and etc... and dangerous.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, he also says that Elves came and talked to the trees. Lorien Elves could have come during times of peace just to visit. It's a possibility. They grew rather alien of one another by the end of the TA: each one says that the other is queer and dangerous, though really both are ancient and wise and etc... and dangerous.

Oh, yes. Individuals from the two woods might well have met, but if the leaders of the two cultures have never met, describing them as 'allies' doesn't seem right.

It has always seemed odd to me that Tolkien's free peoples tend to be so isolationist, so distrustful of one another. The Rohirrum thought Ents a children's tale, and though evil of Galadriel. The Wild Men were thought of as beasts, while hobbits were a legend. Aragorn forbade men access to the Shire, and thought this a good thing, a favor to the hobbits.

I'm not saying this is wrong, but it is an odd aspect of Middle Earth. In many a political fantasy world, if a state like Fangorn or Lorien remained ignorant, isolated and alone, they might become victims of this plot or alliance or that. In Middle Earth, remaining isolated and alone, protected by great power that sleeps for millennia, is more the norm.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Aragorn forbade men access to the Shire, and thought this a good thing, a favor to the hobbits.

Just a note here (I couldnt resist): I think it's better to forbid men to enter the Shire's borders than to have men pour into it to google at hobbits after they appeared from the legends. There would be many curious folk. So yes, he's doing the hobbits a favour.

He's not forbidding interaction between the two "species" - he encourages it. But it should not be something enforced on all hobbits, rather something that the more adventurous hobbits choose.

Though, in general, I agree with your thoghts about isolated communities and states.

Originally Posted by Flim

Curiously, Haldir comments on halflings and their evil nature. He mentions not having heard of halflings for many years, but that these halflings (in the Fellowship) did not look evil, so persumably these are the tales he knows of concerning halflings from the past--that they are an evil race (in looks originally? or perhaps both in looks and demeanor?).

No, I don't think so. He says that they don't look evil because he knows what evil could look like, not because he thought hobbits were evil.

Is Galadriel with the white a more powerful opponent of Sauron than Elrond with the blue? Tricky but I'd imagine so, regardless of the rings as Galadriel is significantly older, had been to the Undying lands and was personal friend of Melian

Agreed, though I would add that she is so powerful (with the help of Nenya and the Elessar perhaps) that she can read Sauron's mind without opening her own. She might have learned this from Melian, who played a similar trick on Morgoth. But still, to be able to defeat a Maia as mighty as Sauron....

Elrond's power lies in a different field. As has been mentioned, he is more communicative to the Free Peoples. He is closer to them, and thus more respected - and more obeyed, I'd assume. People come to him for a word of advice (eg Boromir) but most are afraid of Lothlorien.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Elrond's power lies in a different field. As has been mentioned, he is more communicative to the Free Peoples. He is closer to them, and thus more respected - and more obeyed, I'd assume. People come to him for a word of advice (eg Boromir) but most are afraid of Lothlorien.

Elrond might have taken up the life of counselor and healer during the Lord of the Rings, but he's got about as an impressive pedigree as any other elf. Son of Earendil and Elwing, grandson of Tuor and Idril, great grandson to Turgon and Luthien and Beren. He was also Gil-Galad's herald and could have taken the claim as High King of the Noldor...just wouldn't seem like much of a point with how few Noldor remained in ME aftet the 2nd Age.

But Galadriel happens to be an elf with probably an even more impressive pedigree.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Other plus-points for Rivendell, which I don't think overcome Lothlorien's greater size, population and Galadriel are-

The remnants of the Noldor, eg Glorfindel was a handy chap to have around
Renowned seat of learning and counsel
Elrond has close allies in the Rangers, but Celeborn's close allies are the Ents

One thing to consider, if trying to weight the dice in Rivendell's favour (), is where the respective realms descended from. Rumil mentions it briefly with 'the remnants of the Noldor', but consider:

Lothlorien is a bunch of Silvan elves (ie, had never been to Valinor, and therefore are 'lesser' in Sauron's eyes), led by a couple whose previous home was Eregion. Eregion was the only Elven realm ever to welcome Sauron in; they worked with him, he knows (or thinks he does) how its people think, and when he decided to get rid of them, he took them out pretty easily.

(Now, granted, Galadriel and Celeborn had no part in any of that, but I don't think it's unfair to assume Sauron would just figure they were much like Celebrimbor.)

Imladris, though, is a realm of the Noldor and the Sindar, and it's led by the herald of Gil-Galad - Gil-Galad who led the alliance which brought Sauron down, and whose realm he was never actually able to conquer. Lindon faded due to emigration (and possibly loss of land at the fall of Numenor), not due to Sauron's actions. And in fact, Rivendell is still in active contact with Gil-Galad's successor at the Havens.

So on the one hand, you have a mob of petty-elves led by chums of the guy he once stuck on a flagpole and used as a banner. They're fiercely isolationist - they don't even talk to their kin in Mirkwood, and for three thousand years their armies haven't stirred (other than Galadriel popping out to do magic on occasion). On the other hand, you have the heir of Lindon, of the line of the High Kings, forging an alliance which spans the entire North (remember that both Mirkwood and Erebor send messengers to Rivendell when trouble comes). Imladris is actively patrolling at least the local area; it includes at least one non-Ringbearer who can effectively take down the Nazgul; and, worryingly, Sauron still doesn't know exactly where it is!

As it turned out, Elrond's 'alliance' was nothing of the sort: the armies of the North didn't come together to fight as a new Last Alliance. Erebor and Dale fought their battle, Mirkwood joined Lorien, Arnor travelled to Gondor, and Mithlond stayed pretty much out of things. But to Sauron - to draw a not-unreasonable connection to the First Age - a new Nargothrond was probably much more worrying than a new Doriath.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Imladris, though, is a realm of the Noldor and the Sindar, and it's led by the herald of Gil-Galad - Gil-Galad who led the alliance which brought Sauron down, and whose realm he was never actually able to conquer. Lindon faded due to emigration (and possibly loss of land at the fall of Numenor), not due to Sauron's actions. And in fact, Rivendell is still in active contact with Gil-Galad's successor at the Havens..

Moreover, Elrond had led a substantial wing of Gil-Galad's army in the First War of the Rings, had founded Rivendall as a redoubt in that war (which Sauron beseiged, unsuccessfully), and who sallied into the Mordor forces' rear as they were retreating before the Numenoreans, leading to a Pelennor-grade slaughter and rout. Rivendell also sent a substantial force under Glorfindel to the battle of Fornost where Angmar was destroyed and the Witch-King overthrown

So, yes, Sauron took Imladris very seriously.

However, a very great portion of Rivendell's people were Noldor; while this would make them more "potent," it's also the case that throughout the Third Age the Noldor had been drifting west to the Havens, so I imagine Rivendell had been bleeding population at a greater rate than Lorien.