Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?


If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

Even you would not call that "staying loyal".


I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean.

In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.

So quit the wikipedia campaign.

[Mumriken]

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.

Orly...

a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.

If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

Actually did he really, I don't have the entire silmarillion in my head but wasn't he afraid of returning or he felt humiliated and chose not to return but instead hid himself? I don't remember I have only listened to it once. Now even if he did ask for pardon which I don't think he did...well even if he did that would still not mean he abandoned Morgoth SINCE he returned to his evil ways eventually.

If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself.

Yet he went from being a good guy serving under Aule...to serve under Morgoth until Morgoth was captured and thrown into the void. That is quite a lot of serving if you ask me...and he never did turn his back to morgoth's evil ways. His own master, what a joke actually...it's so stupid I'm not sure why it's even being discussed. Not loyal to the devil himself, to the being who made him into what he is? So I guess the balrog's were their own masters as well after Morgoth left. Guess they weren't loyal to him anymore and instead enjoyed tormenting dwarves for personal pleasure. Not being loyal to Morgoth is like not being loyal to evil as it exists in the entire mythology. There are two sides in this story, it's clear which side Sauron is on. That he loves what he does doesn't mean he isn't loyal to the devil.

If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, yeah right...then why did he join melkor in the first place. The only being he wasn't loyal to was Aule, who he left for morgoth.

In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No!

Because morgoth was chained outside the ****in world......

After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.

He didn't care? Oh I think he did...the war of wrath takes place, sauron has hid in some deep cavern...(lalalalalal I don't care...lalalalallala....few weeks later he goes out into the sun ohh what a nice day ...hmm finally now I can be my own master...)

AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from....

War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated)
Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained
Sauron loose
Messes around with the children

NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

You have rather beaten me to the punch there; here's the Professor's remark on the subject from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great.

What we can see from this is that Sauron's refusal to return to Valinor was not because he wanted to "Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people" but because he was too used to being second banana of a powerful realm to go from a position of high status to what would probably have been the absolute lowest rung on the ladder in Valinor.
Sauron did not go down the path of evil for the sake of evil, but out of a love of order (quoted earlier) which was repeatedly perverted to a lust for power. Professor Tolkien also makes this comment in the letter which is included in the Preface to the Second Edition of The Silmarillion:

Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for complete power

So ultimately he had a second fall: repenting of evil he fell back into evil but in the pursuit of a notionally 'noble' cause: the ordering of Middle-earth. It was not an immediate continuation of his activities as Morgoth's lieutenant.

not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone

This is not completely true. There is a difference between being evil, which indeed derives from Morgoth, and pursuing the same goals as Morgoth, which Sauron patently did not do, given that he was intent on rebuilding and ordering Middle-earth. This contrasts greatly with Morgoth's nihilistic tendencies at the end of the First Age, the quotes for which I now realise haven't been included in this thread so far but which I present (abridged) for the sake of completeness, with my apologies for asserting them earlier. They derive, again, from Morgoth's Ring.

His sole ultimate object was their destruction... This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men... even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos.

And lastly, and most importantly:

Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.

In contrast to this, the Professor notes:

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began.

I think we can perceive from this that certainly by the end of the First Age those qualities of Morgoth's which had first bought Sauron's loyalty had long degenerated. This quote about Sauron from the same text is also worth consideration:

He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä

So it would seem that Sauron considered Morgoth a failure; he had failed in the purpose which had first attracted Sauron - the masterful ordering of the world. Sauron was now going to fulfil the task which Morgoth had lacked the strength of character to accomplish. Did he perhaps even consider himself to be better, in that sense, than Morgoth? Possibly another question worth contemplating.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?

do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar?

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

An excellent point, and one I'd neglected. To quote Eru in the Ainulindalë:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

In regards to language, I thought I might offer this point in Appendix F:

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.

It could be in this case that the desire for a single unified language for all his subjects derived from Sauron's desire for order and efficiency; it would certainly have aided communication. We can imagine, perhaps, that like Orwell's Newspeak its vocabulary might have limited the capacity for "disordered", which is to say rebellious, thinking among Sauron's slaves.
As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta:

Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame.

In terms of knowledge production it's worth noting that it was a two-person job for the dark powers: Sauron "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Just a few ideas that might be relevant.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

ah yes! and your deployment of the rich, evocative connotations of color-code demonstrates very plainly to this audience that you understood my point about language and speech acts, now doesn't it?


how, then, are we then transmuting the meanings of Darkness or Blackness when we understand their use by the Vala Irmo?

[Belegorn]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.

Not even one of the Valar, could read the mind of other 'equal beings':... Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

[Mumriken]

A lot of fair points, but I'm sure Morgoth would be pleased with Sauron. What he did in middle earth when he wasn't around. Loyal or not Sauron is the puppet of morgoth and will be til the end. You say Morgoth wanted chaos and Sauron order, which might be true but still the way both of them tried to accomplish their goals were much alike. Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion. That their end goals are slightly different doesn't matter, Morgoth would have been pleased...very pleased. That is all that matters. I don't think we can for certain say if Sauron considered himself greater than morgoth in any way.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.