Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?

do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar?

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

An excellent point, and one I'd neglected. To quote Eru in the Ainulindalë:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

In regards to language, I thought I might offer this point in Appendix F:

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.

It could be in this case that the desire for a single unified language for all his subjects derived from Sauron's desire for order and efficiency; it would certainly have aided communication. We can imagine, perhaps, that like Orwell's Newspeak its vocabulary might have limited the capacity for "disordered", which is to say rebellious, thinking among Sauron's slaves.
As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta:

Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame.

In terms of knowledge production it's worth noting that it was a two-person job for the dark powers: Sauron "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Just a few ideas that might be relevant.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

ah yes! and your deployment of the rich, evocative connotations of color-code demonstrates very plainly to this audience that you understood my point about language and speech acts, now doesn't it?


how, then, are we then transmuting the meanings of Darkness or Blackness when we understand their use by the Vala Irmo?

[Belegorn]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.

Not even one of the Valar, could read the mind of other 'equal beings':... Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.



However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

agreed! the question of the medieval principle of loyalty as a ground principle of the monarchical, feudal state, for which the whole of Arda is made available, is altogether a different question than the discourse of naming by which we know these Bodiless, Timeless entities who fell into Shadow. the one entity known to the Incarnates as Sauron seems to prefer the tactic of goeteia in his working out of the strategy of total control over the Little Kingdom; the greater entity known as Melkor (who is the fount of Theological Evil in this legendarium) prefers the tactic of magia (and thus the suffusion of the physical atoms of Arda with his infernal essence).....



....however, let us not forget that the names by which these Bodiless entities are known to us in the official, authoritative texts are given to them by Noldor, the Deep Eldar - and are thus subject to the inevitable bias of natural incarnation: this means that the transcribed, translated meanings of these names convey by definition the biases of the perceiving minds of their aboriginal Elvish authors, who, although they do have better access to a universe outside of four spacetime dimensions, do not seem able to perceive the wider canopy of possible meanings of color, shape, quantity, etc.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Orly...

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.

Calm down the rhetoric man. This isn't some place where you win anything by stating in an interesting thread, that other people are wrong. It's actually a topic that may not have a single, clearly defined answer. Make your argument and leave it at that, no need for the rhetoric. And if you are going to disagree with other people's opinions, better come with more than wikipedia.

What I'm wondering, in all of this, is does anyone think Saruman was loyal to Sauron?

[Mumriken]

A lot of fair points, but I'm sure Morgoth would be pleased with Sauron. What he did in middle earth when he wasn't around. Loyal or not Sauron is the puppet of morgoth and will be til the end. You say Morgoth wanted chaos and Sauron order, which might be true but still the way both of them tried to accomplish their goals were much alike. Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion. That their end goals are slightly different doesn't matter, Morgoth would have been pleased...very pleased. That is all that matters. I don't think we can for certain say if Sauron considered himself greater than morgoth in any way.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I've been reading this most interesting thread, and I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood both the original question and the subsequent points made by other posters. I believe the problem here is one of semantics– that is, you seem very focussed on your own definition of the word "loyal". Zigur, Boro and G55 are clearly using it to mean "consciously serving another", whereas by "loyal" you appear to mean "furthering another's ends, deliberately or not". Do you see the difference?

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

how would any conscious being in Arda who wishes to coerce the free will of others be disloyal by any definition to the source of Theological Evil, defined as "the removal of the free will of others(i know silent readers that i've used bit of tautology!)", Man Woman?

[Nerwen]

Eäralda Halatiriva– I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.

[Boromir88]

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.

Sauron was not interested in Morgoth's return, because Sauron saw himself as "Morgoth returned." As his pride grew, Sauron was loyal to himself, he no longer worried about the Valar intervening and this includes Morgoth. It's hard to argue he remained loyal to Morgoth (as in being loyal to a person/being. For example, as Sam's unyielding loyalty to Frodo, and denying the Ring's influence because of his loyalty to his master.), when Sauron fashioned himself as Morgoth.

Now Mumriken brings up a good point I had not considered:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion.

I agree, that had Morgoth not been removed, I think Sauron would have remained subordinate. But, it's a rather moot argument, since it's a "what if" scenario. Morgoth was gone and Sauron's pursuit was not to free Morgoth, but to Rule Middle-earth as his own domain.

It's not much different from Durin's Bane. After Morgoth's defeat, Durin's Bane fled and made himself a nice, humble home in Moria. Durin's Bane was not serving Sauron, nor was he serving Morgoth. However, when unwanted guests came barging in to disturb his retirement plans, he simply kicked them out.

My point here is, it's hard for evil to work together, and thus how can it remain loyal to another evil? It is always searching for the acquisition of more personal gain and power. Even if desiring the same, in the end there can only be one "Evil Lord." Saruman understood this when he tried to fool Sauron by joining him. Sauron capitalized on his opportunity when Morgoth was sent to the Void.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.

precisely! there are different interpretations of a word, as a Sign you've grasped it, Jewel of Faith!!!

does the image of a thing not partake in the essence of its template? can Sauron (as he is known in later Ages) propagate Theological Evil without having come to understand what Evil means in itself? ^^ can Energy exist without a Source?

thanks for sharing with us your beliefs. we learn much from you!

[Mumriken]

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. However Gollum feared Sauron. Could one say the same of Morgoth/Sauron's relationship? If when Morgoth corrupted Mairon or Sauron to his side, was it out of fear Sauron joined him?

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal. Also there was no way Sauron could free Morgoth. So that he never tried to free Morgoth doesn't mean he wasn't loyal to him, because there was no way he could do that anyway so. I'm still going with this:

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.