Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Well then it's impossible for ANYONE to be loyal at all. Because all beings in our world and in the fictional have their own motives. Sauron was no slave to morgoth, he chose willingly to work with him. Also I find this notion of Sauron wanting order and Morgoth wanting chaos very...well unimportant. I mean let's imagine Morgoth sat in the void looking into the world at what Sauron was doing. Would he think:

Not necessarily. As I've pointed out with Sam, it was his loyalty to Frodo which was a factor in his rejection of the Ring. You could say it was Faramir's loyalty in doing the same as well.

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?

[Belegorn]

We must keep in mind the difference between some servants and others. Orcs and the like were slaves. Sauron and others willingly flocked to Morgoth, some before and some after entering Arda.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?

I think this is the issue. Evidently Sauron admired Morgoth at first, before either of them had wholly fallen into evil, but it would seem to me that as both of them descended into darkness Sauron would have become incapable of this kind of positivity. Professor Tolkien certainly casts doubt upon the "shadow of good" in Sauron's nature by the time of the downfall of Númenor. He "profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’" - it had become part of his nature to twist anything, even apparent acts of humility, to his own gain. It's hard to imagine Sauron in the Third Age, who evidently loved no one but himself, still feeling any affection for Morgoth or devotion to his cause.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think this is the issue. Evidently Sauron admired Morgoth at first, before either of them had wholly fallen into evil, but it would seem to me that as both of them descended into darkness Sauron would have become incapable of this kind of positivity. Professor Tolkien certainly casts doubt upon the "shadow of good" in Sauron's nature by the time of the downfall of Númenor. He "profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’" - it had become part of his nature to twist anything, even apparent acts of humility, to his own gain.

why does "down" tend to connote (theological) Evil, while "up" tend to connote (theological) Good in this Legendarium?

we discover in the Valaquenta that the turning of (conceptual) Darkness to Theological Evil is one of the most loathsome deeds of that Being who is known in the Age of the Lamps by the term Melkor (in Noldoran texts) - that there were times when Darkness had not yet been corrupted with Melkor's Malice and been made Bearer of Fear and Quencher of Lights... that In the beginning, Irmo, Lord of Dreams, used the Embrace of the Soothing Darkness to convey his Visions.....

now, why is that, would you say? does this tell us anything about the use of what you might call an iconic Language, that has its most engaging effects when there is a community of minds that share an interpretive horizon, which is to say have been enculturated with a similar perceptual "toolkit"?

[Mumriken]

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?

Lol why can't I give this up xD xD

The reason Sam rejected the ring was because he loved Frodo. This loyalty exists in all beings that are dependent on another being. It's actually a form of love the orcs have for Sauron. Because he gives them what they want, just like Frodo gives Sam what he wants. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth because morgoth gave him what he wanted, power and control. By not turning his back to morgoth even after he was thrown out of the world. Sauron has shown his loyalty to Morgoth. Even if Morgoth is not there to give him power he still honors Morgoth by trying to follow in his footsteps even though he is unable to do so because of not being as powerful as him. Everything he did in the second and third age to some degree served morgoth's purpose. Probably the reason he did not fully destroy the children as Morgoth tried to do was because he simply wasn't powerful enough to do so.

That beings who are "evil" have a hard time being loyal is just a biased view from the people who consider themself to be good.

-Mumriken

xD xD xD

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

This loyalty exists in all beings that are dependent on another being. It's actually a form of love the orcs have for Sauron.

The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love. They fear him (and the Nazgûl) more than they feared their enemies.

Even if Morgoth is not there to give him power he still honors Morgoth by trying to follow in his footsteps even though he is unable to do so because of not being as powerful as him.

If it was written somewhere that Sauron thought he was doing this deliberately to honour Morgoth I would agree with you. I guess I just don't believe that you can be "accidentally loyal". Loyalty in my opinion involves some element of deliberate decision-making.

Probably the reason he did not fully destroy the children as Morgoth tried to do was because he simply wasn't powerful enough to do so.

I'm afraid Professor Tolkien covered Sauron's lack of destructive intent:

the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all the inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron’s right to be their supreme lord)

Also:

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. ~Morgoth's Ring.

Sauron wanted to rule Middle-earth and its inhabitants. Whether or not he had the power to destroy it/them isn't especially relevant: even if he could, he didn't want to.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love.

"when one sows Vice, one reaps Orcs" - Elvish proverb