Wizard Gone Missing

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nice observation, elempi. Let me say a few things. From my point of view, I definitely agree with what you spotted there - Gandalf indeed has these several different "personalities" throughout the books, the most striking, which probably everyone notices since it is also an "outward change" is the Gandalf the Grey/Gandalf the White transition. The others are also true, the way you mention them.

But, at the same point - and I would especially emphasise it in regards to what you have said about the wizard ("This time, I am a conjurer of cheap tricks" ) at the Unexpected Party - I would say that these can also be seen as mere personality changes, or different sides of the same personality in different situations. Think about it. A person often acts differently when at home with family, in a circle of friends, or at work, when being a high-placed politician, or as a conscript in the military or in the middle of a war. It can all be the same person but you'd probably agree he might seem very different in those different situations.

And that's it, in my opinion. When Gandalf is in the Shire, he is "resting" from his daily duties - a bit, even though even here he has his own agenda and is trying to get Thorin to take Bilbo along for some reasons - but you can see it everywhere, even in LotR. Among Hobbits, who are generally isolated from the worries of the world, Gandalf is on "holiday" and he can make fireworks and just have fun. Indeed, I think "being on holiday" is the best term - it's probably the only holiday Gandalf had ever enjoyed in Middle-Earth. So therefore, he acts like that* Wizard.

*One small note. I object to the term "Nordic Wizard" you have used. I know you used it because you are aware that in other cultural context, Wizards can look differently - like e.g. some African shaman, to show some extreme case - but it is certainly not "Nordic", the thing you are talking about (if we both think the same thing). My country is not "Nordic" in any sense, yet the image of what "wizard" is is very much the same for me. "European", perhaps, in some way you could say, or whatever. I think "Wizard" suffices. That's just a note. You really made it sound - to me - as if that Gandalf should be something "alien" to me, which it is not. It is a Wizard, as much as I know Wizards from mythology I've been hearing from childhood. Unless by "Nordic" you mean "more northern than the Mediterranean". And even then who knows.

[Rhod the Red]

He's much more serious in TLotR. Halfway
into the Hobbit he diverts to Dol Guldor.
There he senses Souron is the Necromancer.

So things get darker and more serious for the
wizards and White Council. It's logical it
affected his mood. As well as growing
suspicions about Saruman's intentions.

[littlemanpoet]

Tolkien had no notion of LotR when The Hobbit was published, nor did the revision of The Hobbit in the early 60's change Gandalf.

I think it is sufficient to the discussion that Gandalf became more serious toward the end of the Hobbit on the merits of the thing growing from a 13 Dwarf gambit into a touchy inter-cultural (and inter-species) negotiation in which justice and compassion became issues. That is enough for me to understand the seriousness in Gandalf after Smaug is killed.

Therefore, it seems to me that we can dispense with such considerations as the white counsel and getting rid of Sauron for making the wizard more serious, being add-ins due to LotR.

As to the term "Nordic Wizard," I have a problem. "European" doesn't suffice because a Celtic magician is not the same thing, for example. The whole milieu of the Celtic mythos has a different feel. The Wizard introduced early in The Hobbit is not druidic ala Celtic.

There are, however consonances between Gandalf and Merlin of the Arthurian legends, and we know that the Arthurian legends are derived from the Celtic. This can be accounted for because the writers of the Arthurian tales did have a European sensibility as opposed to a purely Celtic.

At any rate, what I'm really getting at is that the Wizard introduced in the beginning of The Hobbit could have jumped out of a fairy tale by Jacob Grimm. So could the Dwarves. I can imagine Arthur Rackham doing some fascinating sketches of The Unexpected Party.

Legate, I remain unconvinced by the "personality growth" argument. It isn't necessary to explain Gandalf's seriousness toward the end of The Hobbit. Nor does it apply (to my mind) to the differences in Gandalf because he is Istari in LotR. We're not talking about a personality change at all. Gandalf really doesn't change in character, except to be known better.

What changes is the evocation of the Wizard at the hands of the author, as a wizard.

We have essentially two different wizards. They're close enough in their evocation that we readily accept the change. Nevertheless, gone is the Germanic (better word?) wizard of European lore and legend, and present is Tolkien's Olorin, a Maiar and Istari who is, frankly, immortal though incarnated. The wizard in The Unexpected Party may not be your average human being, may not be human at all .... but he might be, and most certainly he is mysterious. The feel is completely different.

Note the difference from the language itself: Olorin, Istari, Maiar ... versus Gandalf, wizard, seeming positively sorcerous. Language is, Tolkien told us, the means of incantation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

At any rate, what I'm really getting at is that the Wizard introduced in the beginning of The Hobbit could have jumped out of a fairy tale by Jacob Grimm. So could the Dwarves.

Yes. Of course. That's what I thought and what I imagined you meant under that term. "A classic European fairy-tale wizard" then. In any case, that's playing with words. The main point is that we know what we mean. The old bearded guy, preferably in a pointed hat and with a staff, who does some extraordinary things.

Legate, I remain unconvinced by the "personality growth" argument. It isn't necessary to explain Gandalf's seriousness toward the end of The Hobbit. Nor does it apply (to my mind) to the differences in Gandalf because he is Istari in LotR. We're not talking about a personality change at all. Gandalf really doesn't change in character, except to be known better.

Okay, your eloquence in the last post has somewhat confused me So I'm not sure I understand anymore what you were trying to say (at least in the last post. Previously I think it was pretty clear). But I can respond at least to this, since that (I think ) I understand:

I was not talking about any "personality growth". Certainly not "growth". Merely a "change". You behave differently on a holiday, and differently in the middle of a war. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not determined by the time, only by the space or the situation. I don't mean that with the start of the War of the Ring, Gandalf suddenly became more serious. No. He was serious all the time when not on a holiday, if I can put it that way. I think Gandalf was really very much "situational". You can see it especially if you compare e.g. the way he talked to Hobbits (or silly Dwarves or Butterbur etc) and the others (Aragorn or Denethor or whoever). He basically behaved differently in different situations. And among Hobbits, he had this "classical fairytale wizard"-image, because he did not need to maintain the "serious attire". That's what I would say.

[littlemanpoet]

Maybe it's just that Tolkien niggled too much. I wish Gandalf had stayed mysterious instead of having his backstory all laid out with all that Istari/Maiar stuff.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Maybe it's just that Tolkien niggled too much. I wish Gandalf had stayed mysterious instead of having his backstory all laid out with all that Istari/Maiar stuff.

In that case though, wouldn't Tolkien have run the risk of Gandalf being the "usual" storybook wizard?
To me, the information about why he was there, his limitations, and sacrifices, are what makes him so endearing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In that case though, wouldn't Tolkien have run the risk of Gandalf being the "usual" storybook wizard?
To me, the information about why he was there, his limitations, and sacrifices, are what makes him so endearing.

Exactly. I would support that. This added a completely different dimension to Gandalf. And when you think about it, it is "latently" there from start, or there is "room" for it. It does not in any way disturb his personality, quite the opposite, expands it in wonderful way. Gandalf becomes much more "three-dimensional" that way than if he was just an "archetypal wizard" (boring, eventually).

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In that case though, wouldn't Tolkien have run the risk of Gandalf being the "usual" storybook wizard?
To me, the information about why he was there, his limitations, and sacrifices, are what makes him so endearing.

I'd say that such a question underestimates Tolkien. What you are suggesting is that trading in mystery for endearment is a good exchange in your opinion. I contend that the trade-off isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Jallanite

I am not sure what you are talking about with your “Celtic wizard” and “Germanic wizard″. There are lots of Germanic tales and lots of Celtic tales and the wizards in them are not alike, or perhaps better, very much alike. I don’t see this distinction you are making. You need to indicate which wizards you are talking about in which stories.

It's a minor issue; at the risk of going off on a major and useless tangent, the Celtic wizard is druidic, his milieu that of human sacrifice and unity with nature. The Germanic/Nordic (I must include the term) wizard with control of the elements - earth, wind, fire, ice, etc. Both have staves of oak, but their use of them is different in the general way I've described above.

The pictures you link are interesting. It's hard to know what was symbolized in medieval paintings and what was not; that is to say, did the red cloak mean anything more than its color? As for the late 1800s pictures, they reflect the Celtic strangeness that I think Tolkien didn't care for.

I'm not convinced that it's an issue of mysteriousness. I think of Gandalf outside the gate of Moria and there he seems very Germanic. So too on the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Even more so in his first treatment of Wormtongue and Theoden. Even the name, "stormcrow" is delightfully reminiscent of that Germanic feel. I suppose I pretty much like the portrayal of Gandalf throughout LotR. What I find disappointing is what one learns about him from the Silmarillion.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As to the term "Nordic Wizard," I have a problem. "European" doesn't suffice because a Celtic magician is not the same thing, for example. The whole milieu of the Celtic mythos has a different feel. The Wizard introduced early in The Hobbit is not druidic ala Celtic.

There are, however consonances between Gandalf and Merlin of the Arthurian legends, and we know that the Arthurian legends are derived from the Celtic. This can be accounted for because the writers of the Arthurian tales did have a European sensibility as opposed to a purely Celtic.

…

We have essentially two different wizards. They're close enough in their evocation that we readily accept the change. Nevertheless, gone is the Germanic (better word?) wizard of European lore and legend, and present is Tolkien's Olorin, a Maiar and Istari who is, frankly, immortal though incarnated. The wizard in The Unexpected Party may not be your average human being, may not be human at all .... but he might be, and most certainly he is mysterious. The feel is completely different.

Note the difference from the language itself: Olorin, Istari, Maiar ... versus Gandalf, wizard, seeming positively sorcerous. Language is, Tolkien told us, the means of incantation.

I am not sure what you are talking about with your “Celtic wizard” and “Germanic wizard″. There are lots of Germanic tales and lots of Celtic tales and the wizards in them are not alike, or perhaps better, very much alike. I don’t see this distinction you are making. You need to indicate which wizards you are talking about in which stories.

Gandalf’s mysterious references reminds me of Taliesin in Hanes Taliesin (http://www.masseiana.org/hanes_taliesin.htm ) if that is what you are talking about. But that is only one poem and almost all the stuff about who Gandalf really was is in the Appendices and in material not published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The main point is that we know what we mean. The old bearded guy, preferably in a pointed hat and with a staff, who does some extraordinary things.

The difficulty is that I don’t know what you mean. Merlin’s modern iconography is that of an “old bearded guy … in a pointed hat and with a staff”, but that is not from the actual tales at all.

See, for example this medieval picture which lacks pointed hat and staff: http://books.google.ca/books?id=-Mz3...page&q&f=false . Or see more modern images by Aubrey Beardsley which also lack the beard at http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illu...rdsley/12.html and http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/aubr...and-nimue-1894 .

Tolkien apparently described Gandalf as he did because he wanted to use what has become the iconic Merlin image somewhat as a cartoonist who draws Sherlock Holmes will draw him in a deerstalker hat, because then he will be more likely to be recognized.

It sounds to me like some readers would have preferred to have kept Gandalf mysterious. Tolkien chose to reveal a lot, which bothers them. But other readers would like more to be revealed. The author can’t please everyone so he pleases himself.