Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

I agree and it is a shame Tolkien does not expand her role, but the story is very Hobbit centric.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

I think there would be quite a big change. At Rivendell as much as she would help Aragorn, she could not help but be overshadowed by Elrond and Galadriel. She also had no real right to interfere with Dunedain.

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

There is so much to Tolkien's work that even the greatest experts occasionally find something else they had missed.

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

Though it was dropped from the Appendix, Tolkien wanted to point out that Eldarion inherited all the elvish lands of the West through his mother.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

I agree and Arwen is not near Luthien in power. I was only pointing out why Luthien's innate power far exceeded Galadriel's and giving the comparisons.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

This is true and the Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth, but rejected him.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

I would agree with this. Though I would add Faramir there too.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Not necessarily, but I would agree it took greater strength of will for her to resist than say Faramir etc.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath. I will give you the quotes if you want.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

"With that power I should have power too great and too terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a powerstill greater and more deadly."..."Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to weild it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Yet there is more to it.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

I think the point is being power hungry often leads to a lack of power. Those who don't desire it are granted it.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

It is Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men."

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

Aragorn's words about the people differing on the exact distance suggest it is not mere geography. The fact that many people, who have been there cannot give you an accurate account of how many miles it takes to reach their shows there must be some enchantment about the place. Even Gandalf, who had been to Rivendell many times struggles to find it again.

You are right there is no direct quote that Elrond strove with Sauron mentally, but it is implied that all the wielders of the 3 rings did so.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

There is a difference between the temptation when you have the ring in your possession and merely just using it. The greater you are the greater it's hold on you when you actually have the ring. This does not apply if it is just sitting there. All through out the story we see people, who do not desire power having no problem rejecting the ring. It is only those, who desire power that are most tempted.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

Apart from Feanor, I think a lot of the wiser ones DID realise they could not win. Fingolfin is one of them, who knew it was a hopeless journey. Then Mandos tells them it is hopeless. They knew what they were getting into and were too proud to turn back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:

Originally Posted by LotR, Appendix B

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.

Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

[elbenprincess]

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath.

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding,

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.