Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Yet there is more to it.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

I think the point is being power hungry often leads to a lack of power. Those who don't desire it are granted it.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

It is Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men."

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

Aragorn's words about the people differing on the exact distance suggest it is not mere geography. The fact that many people, who have been there cannot give you an accurate account of how many miles it takes to reach their shows there must be some enchantment about the place. Even Gandalf, who had been to Rivendell many times struggles to find it again.

You are right there is no direct quote that Elrond strove with Sauron mentally, but it is implied that all the wielders of the 3 rings did so.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

There is a difference between the temptation when you have the ring in your possession and merely just using it. The greater you are the greater it's hold on you when you actually have the ring. This does not apply if it is just sitting there. All through out the story we see people, who do not desire power having no problem rejecting the ring. It is only those, who desire power that are most tempted.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

Apart from Feanor, I think a lot of the wiser ones DID realise they could not win. Fingolfin is one of them, who knew it was a hopeless journey. Then Mandos tells them it is hopeless. They knew what they were getting into and were too proud to turn back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:

Originally Posted by LotR, Appendix B

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.

Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

[elbenprincess]

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath.

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding,

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.