An Unexpected Journey, or the morning after

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

First off ah yes you're right about the blue wizards whenever I hear White Council I just automatically include them...

Secondly it is Balin

Nope, no way. But ha, turns out I was right after all, and it's Oin (it's even written on the pic).

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nope, no way. But ha, turns out I was right after all, and it's Oin (it's even written on the pic).

Indeed those two looked alike to me along with the other one, gloin maybe? Ah the treachury of seeing a film at midnight after an evening of only 3 hours sleep...

I bow to your correctness

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And thank you for your compliments. I got laughed at by teenage girls in elven cloaks (not to mention the bus ride to the cinema), but it was naturally highly enjoyable.

Giggly girls in Elven cloaks can go eat bananas. What do they know of life or Dwarves?

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

If PJ doesn't botch it, the deaths of Fili and Kili
defending Thorin could be a highlight.

Right. But in the book we're not told much. The focus is on Thorin. I wager that in the film there will be focus on Kili as much as on Thorin.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, that's how I saw it: touching him and therefore waking him up, nothing more. I can't say I 100% remember correctly, maybe somebody can correct me, but I think he did the sort of thing that first it looked as if he was, I don't know, doing something akin to what he would do if he was trying to close the eyes of a dead person (except that Thorin's eyes were already closed), sort of slid his palm over his face or somesuch. Maybe up to his neck. He basically looked like he could have been checking whether Thorin was still alive, or something.

Really? I thought he was more Jedi-ing. He sort of lowered his hand above Thorin's head and brought it over his face. Like I sometimes do to my siblings when they aren't listening to what I'm saying, but in a horizontal position.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

Oh noes, we don't likes that part either. Not one bit.

By the way, do you know what Galadriel said in the second telepathy exchange? I missed it completely.

And her dress looks so fake when it makes this perfect circle around her, and then she turns round... and then she walks back and forth in it, showing off her trail of circular dress like a peacock... Ugh.

[QUOTE=Pomegranate;677953]Some of the references to the LOTR trilogy. Not the one with Gandalf getting mad in Bag End, though, that was really bad.[QUOTE]

Oh yeah, I missed than one in my list. I definitely agree.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That wasn't Balin (and to be honest, I have no idea who exactly it was, can somebody clarify? Originally I thought it was Oin, but then I think it turned out that Oin was somebody else, so I really am not sure).

Right. Balin was the little one with the big white beard, no? The one that looks like Santa's elf?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I was reading something elsewhere earlier where someone asked "Did you spot Cumberbatch?" Well, I can't say that I did. When Radagast was at Dol Guldur I saw a wight (who I assumed was the Witch King of Angmar, later one of the Ringwraiths) and then there was the very creepy bit where the dark figure appeared out of the mists (quite unpleasant in 3D). It didn't look Cumberbatch shaped though, just vaguely man shaped. Have I missed something?

I actually really didn't like that they gave the Necromancer a quite distinct shape. But then the book idea of Sauron having a body before he's in Mordor doesn't sit well with me either. I don't even remember when he's supposed to regain his body.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

I wasn't happy with Ian McKellan's delivery of that line in the FOTR movie ("I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me, Frodo, he'll know what to do."), because it definitely came off too trusting towards Saruman. And then in particular, it didn't seem to fit well with the White Council scene in The Hobbit, because if I remember it correctly, Gandalf shoots Saruman a suspicious look, and then also the meeting with Galadriel.

However, I think it can still work, because like Legate, I really did like the internal dynamics of the White Council.

As Legate said, we get Saruman's perspective, and strictly within a book context he is jealous of Gandalf right at the start. He also knows that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to head the Council, and this is probably where he gets to accusing them of conspiring against him. From, Saruman's perspective, completely true, but he's assuming an evil and personal intent by Gandalf and Galadriel to supplant him (much like Denethor's "Your left hand you would use as a shield against Mordor, but with your right you seek to supplant me." Denethor is completely correct, Gandalf seeks to restore Aragorn as the rightful King, but Denethor's perspective carries a negative connotation. The readers know Gandalf is making the legitimate and rightful decision in supporting Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor).

Saruman's also got an arrogant and superior personality. He is the head of the Istari, he does have far more knowledge in matters concering Sauron and Ring-lore than Gandalf, and it is his designs which ultimately drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur. Other matters are below his standing, however. For example, there is a clear disdain towards Radagast, and my opinion is because Radagast's special knowledge of herbs and beasts is in Saruman's opinion, not knowledge that he deems "worthy." Same as how Saruman chides Gandalf for paying attention to Hobbits. Hobbits are below Saruman's respect, and he feels Gandalf could put his time and thought to far more important matters.

From Gandalf's perspective, we know that he doesn't find out Saruman is a traitor until going to Isengard and being imprisoned there. He could not conceive Saruman was a turn-cloak, if he suspected it he said he would not have gone or he would have been more wary (The Council of Elrond). However, there are moments Gandalf does suspect, or at least, seemingly scratch his head at Saruman's decision making. He does have clear disagreements over how Saruman keeps dragging his feet over the question of Sauron's return to Dol Guldur. And at a later White Council meeting, when Saruman objects to attacking Dol Guldur, this is where he chides Gandalf for paying too much attention to hobbits and that perhaps the "halfling's leaf" he so often enjoys has slowed his mind. Gandalf responds in kind by blowing a smoke-ring symbolizing that Saruman's delving into Ring-lore is a dangerous slope:

Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met, except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings' leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke, while others are in earnest speech."

But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies."

Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."

Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.~Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring

Sorry for the lengthy quote there.

In sum, I didn't like how McKellan delivered the line in FOTR, because it does come off as too trusty towards Saruman. However, still at that point, Gandalf did not know, nor seem to seriously suspect Saruman was a traitor. But I think Gandalf's perspective is one that goes from professional disagreement (thinks Dol Guldur should be attacked, Saruman disagrees. No more serious than perhaps an employee having a professional disagreement with his/her boss), to some inkling suspicion, and then without question once he goes to Orthanc in FOTR, Saruman's revealed his hand. Saruman sees it differently, being jealous of Gandalf and feeling Gandalf wants his position.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wasn't happy with Ian McKellan's delivery of that line in the FOTR movie ("I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me, Frodo, he'll know what to do."), because it definitely came off too trusting towards Saruman. And then in particular, it didn't seem to fit well with the White Council scene in The Hobbit, because if I remember it correctly, Gandalf shoots Saruman a suspicious look, and then also the meeting with Galadriel.
[...]
But I think Gandalf's perspective is one that goes from professional disagreement (thinks Dol Guldur should be attacked, Saruman disagrees. No more serious than perhaps an employee having a professional disagreement with his/her boss), to some inkling suspicion, and then without question once he goes to Orthanc in FOTR, Saruman's revealed his hand. Saruman sees it differently, being jealous of Gandalf and feeling Gandalf wants his position.

That's how I saw it. Especially when Saruman appears behind Gandalf at first and the latter has a look on his face of sudden fear - of having being spotted by his superior. It was a "Uh ho! The boss is here!" kind of look which I found most amusing.
If there are further White Council scenes in the movies I dearly hope for the smoke-rings bit. It made me laugh when reading UT.

[cellurdur]

I saw the Hobbit and overall I thought it was a very, very good film and well done. I enjoyed it much, much more than the Two Towers or Return of the King.

I even agreed with some of the changes. Making the dwarves more heroic and noble fits better with the story. I also like that they gave us the background of Thorin's name.

Bilbo was brilliant and exactly how I thought he would be. I am glad to see that they did Bilbo justice.

I am happy they put the singing back in the films too.

Even having Azog survive and want revenge is a change I did not want, but could easily tolerate.


What did disappoint me is the pointless changes, which made little sense. Why is the Witch King of Angmar supposed to be dead, when they know he holds one of the Great Rings?
Why did Thranduil pay homage to the king under the mountain?
Why was Elrond against the dwarves quest?

My biggest gripe though has to be in Gandalf. Gandalf seems to lack authority and they have removed all his great displays of power or cunning. The scene with the trolls should have been kept it.
I disliked how the White Council played out. Gandalf should have been given more respect, though he would defer to Saruman. Elrond was not very wise and perhaps they should have included a few more of other the elves.
Shame we have never seen the elves being merry and having fun. This film would have been great to see a Rivendell party and perhaps include Aragorn.

Was not a fan of the way Radagast was portrayed either. He IS still a maia and should have his dignity.

I am also unsure how Gandalf got the map if not from Dol Guldur?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A two-hour movie, three hours long.

As with the previous three, PJ is OK when he's rendering actual, genuine Tolkien, and hopeless when indulging in yet another endless, repetitive CGI battle scene or trying to film the third-rate fan-fic Phillippa makes up out of fluff and horsefeathers.

Seriously, could PJ even film a remake of My Dinner With Andre without sticking in 40 minutes of CGI critters hacking at each other and falling off high places?

The good:
Riddles in the Dark. I wonder why.......
Also Martin Freeman generally.

The bad:
too many pointless fights, all too long.
The dumb Azog subplot.
Azanulbizar turned into yet another too-long, pointless fight without any of the significance or tragedy which weights Tolkien's telling (some of his finest writing; "If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.")
Erebor rendered with absurd over the top trans-Egyptian gigantism of the sort CGI unfortunately makes too easy for directors with no self restraint; looked like a set from Thor. (And will somebody please tell Alan Lee that stone has little tensile strength and his statues are physically impossible?)
Radagast and the ghost-witch-king whatever and the "Nazgul tombs" rubbish.
Bilbo engaging in not one, not two, but three swordfights, all before Mirkwood.
The illogical stupidity of Thranduil at the fall of Erebor, as someone discussed above (I did like the elk, though).
The Dwarves' 'reception' (and almost yet *another* fight!) at Rivendell: JRRT's descriptions of the Last Homely House and its Master completely forgotten.
The generally estimable Howard Shore phoning it in and just recycling his old musical cues.
The Stoneformer Giants
PJ not realizing that if one sweeping helicopter shot of the Southern Alps is good, ten of them are not ten times as good.
Gandalf deprived of nearly all his dignity and testy asperity

Didn't hate as much as I thought I would:
Radagast. Though the bunny-sled chase was basically a Road Runner cartoon without any of Chuck Jones' wit or creativity.

[davem]

Boyens is clearly a real fan of Tolkien http://movieline.com/2012/12/18/phil...-silmarillion/ so I think we have to lay the blame for any excesses at Jackson's door. I'm happier with the film than I thought I would be. General audiences/fans of the LotR films would have had certain expectations and the studios would have their own demands too. Looking at the massive success of the film so far I think we have to admit PJ had given the audience what it wants - if you want films on this scale you have to put up with stuff being in them that you don't like. As I said changes to TH are far less irksome to me than what they did to LotR.

[Mister Underhill]

Well well well, hello to friends old and new(ish)!

I've very much enjoyed the thoughts and insights discussed so far. I miss me some good Tolkien discussion! I'll toss a few thoughts into the pot, while trying not to be too redundant:

FIRST IMPRESSION

I enjoyed the movie. Seeing it with my son, who was mesmerized, helped me see the film in a kindly light. Add in a resigned acceptance of PJ's flaws as a director and the fact that, as davem and others have noted, The Hobbit has a little less going on under the hood than LotR, and thus less to screw up, and I ended up being rather pleasantly surprised overall. AUJ is a good time at the movies. Still, any grizzled old Tolkien nut is bound to have a few nitpicks...

CAST

Martin Freeman is very good as Bilbo, but he wasn't the casting perfection I thought he would be. I missed Bilbo's eccentricity, his moods, his devilish sense of humor, his sometimes absurd ridiculousness. I like Freeman as much as anybody, but his specialty is the put-upon, befuddled, deadpan straight-man. It's what makes his Watson such a perfect foil for Cumberbatch's highly eccentric Holmes. Being the eccentric one himself, not so much. Interestingly, Ian Holm kind of specializes in that sort of character. See, for example, his turn as Polonious in Hamlet or his role as the priest in The Fifth Element. I missed that in Bilbo, who comes off more "everyman" here than he should, methinks.

Armitage as Thorin. Okay. Let's just stipulate up front that, like many of us, I'm not a fan of the look of some of the dwarves, and Thorin perhaps above all doesn't resemble the Thorin in my head. And like Bilbo, I miss the sense of humor in the characterization -- Thorin's pompous ridiculousness, his tendency to be a windbag at times, etc. I guess mostly I'm okay with this grittier, more kingly Thorin, but still.

Ian McKellan's Gandalf was one of the best things about the original LotR films, and I still love him in the role. Having said that, I'm not sure who's responsible for some of these choices with the character in AUJ, but there were some that I really didn't approve. I don't like a Gandalf who lacks confidence and the sharp tongue that can put anybody in Middle-earth in their place. See the excerpt posted by Boro -- or really anything in Tolkien involving Gandalf. Hated his cringing, servile demeanor towards Saruman, though I guess it's of a piece with some scenes in the LotR films.

I really didn't care for Hugo Weaving as Elrond in LotR, like, at all. But I liked him much better here. He seemed relaxed in the role, less hammy and broad, more the Elrond who is "kind as summer".

TONE

Not far off from predictions of "LotR: The Prequel", yet still there was more Hobbity whimsy in there than I think most of us expected -- the rabbit-drawn sled, an elvish elk mount, birds nesting in Radgast's hair. I often sensed Guillermo del Toro's fingerprints on the film. It would be interesting to know which ideas were his. Anyway, most of it worked surprisingly well for me (bird poo notwithstanding).

On the other hand, I thought there were a few real misses. The whole theme about mercy and Bilbo's big moment when he spares Gollum might have been a lot more powerful if they weren't sandwiched in with the wanton slaughter of the escape from Goblin-town, which climaxes with the gruesome slapstick of Gandalf killing the Great Goblin. But at this point I guess I've just accepted Jackson's hamfistedness, and it landed more as a missed opportunity than anything else.

DESIGN AND ART DIRECTION

I liked Dale, and Bag End is just so deliciously perfect that I wish I could be there right now and live there always.

I have to note this in passing, though it's a real nitpick -- the wide open, cavernous interiors of both Erebor and the lair of the goblins of the Misty Mountains were all wrong for me.

Back to the dwarves -- it was distracting that some looked cartoonish and made up, while some others were just normal.

THAT SCENE WHERE...

"Far over Misty Mountains cold..." was great, a real high point of the film for me.

Am I the only one who thought the way "Riddles in the Dark" was staged was just okay? The whole scene had a frantic quality, and I thought shoe-horning in the split-personality thing with Gollum was very distracting. Also, why needlessly mess with the words? The charming musicality of "This thing all things devours" becomes the flat "All things it devours". Why?

While we're at it, why bungle "burrahobbit"?

I liked the idea conceptually of dramatizing the meeting of the White Council, but in execution there were so many things wrong for me. The Gandalf choices, as mentioned. I don't like that it's just, oh hey, coincidence, we're all here! Might as well convene a White Council meeting! Also, I always pictured the White Council being more than just these four. Don't remember what canon has to say, if anything, about that.

Radagast and the pipeweed. Well, it wouldn't be a Peter Jackson movie without somebody's eyes rolling up into their head, now would it?

Loved Smaug descending on the mountain. You really felt him as a force of nature.

Liked the Battle of Azinulbizar stuff. Appropriately grim and bloody. You are not going to go wrong with me putting in obscure bits of Middle-earth history.

CALL-BACKS TO LOTR

I agree that there are too many. Great insight about the music, Esty! There did come a point where I found myself thinking, wow, there's a lot of LotR music in here. Most egregiously illogical call-back? Gandalf and the moth.

HEAD-SCRATCHERS

Bag End has plumbing?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mr Underhill

I liked the idea conceptually of dramatizing the meeting of the White Council, but in execution there were so many things wrong for me. The Gandalf choices, as mentioned. I don't like that it's just, oh hey, coincidence, we're all here! Might as well convene a White Council meeting! Also, I always pictured the White Council being more than just these four. Don't remember what canon has to say, if anything, about that.

No, that's pretty close. At least Tolkien only names five members: Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, and Círdan. (I don't think it's clear if they're the only ones, though.)

[KamexKoopa]

I've not read all the comments yet and I'll compile my own thoughts soon enough, but did anyone notice the bearded dwarf women fleeing Erebor at the start

[Kuruharan]

They looked unbearded to me, but there was only a quick look at them and it took me a second to realize they were supposed to be dwarf women.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

They looked unbearded to me, but there was only a quick look at them and it took me a second to realize they were supposed to be dwarf women.

Lommy claims they had sideburns (which, I think, would be a very nice compromise). I didn't see them properly either, but we're going to see the film again some time this week and I'll do my best to pay special attention to them.