Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

The elves were aware of Durin's Bane the 'Nameless Terror' as was Gandalf and Aragorn and others of the 'Wise.' The lack of specifics is easily accounted for given the poor state of lore amonst most of the peoples by this stage of Middle Earth's history. The Balrog was cloaked in fire and shadow, and the ancient world was not short of sorcerous big bad monsters: Werewolves, Vampires, Flightless Dragons etc. Each might comfortably (depending on their true nature) comfortably outclass any dwarf force of that age. Presumably there would be very few survivors of any confrontation or even rough proximity. Thus we're left with poor informed witnesses who were far enough away to escape. I don't think any automatic ID on a balrog is assured at all.





The hostility runs both ways (e.g. Ban on Dwarves in Lorien), so lines of communication are pretty weak at best. Plus word had reached the wise, it simply was clearly insufficiently informed or detailed to allow for an ID.

You're assuming the lore-less could simply get a good description on a Balrog, it's so sorcerously potent, and able to cloak itself in fire and shadow, any ID would very probably just a generic big bad evil.


---

But all of this aside, it's inconcievable that the utterly warlike fire Maiar who could chase off Ungoliant (a big bad on a power scale to rival a Valar), would take to sneaking around.

Plus let's not forget that the earlier people's of Middle Earth were vastly more powerful than subsequent generations.

A Third Age Dwarf army/population is really not all that puissant in comparison to any host assembled in the First, and the Dwarves have never even been remotely on the same power level as the Eldar.

Balrogs who could plough their way through hosts of the Eldar really wouldn't even notice 10/20,000 Dwarves.

Where did you get the idea that Balrogs could plough their way thoruhg a host of the Eldar in the first age?

The only creatures that had such power were the flying dragons, Glaurung and Carcharoth. The Balrogs were captains, but they usually the more powerful elven lords were enough to at least stall one.

We have seen the Balrogs sneak around plenty of times. The Balrog of Moria was only alive, because he managed to sneak under the earth. When Morgoth was first overthrown once more the Balrogs snuck in the dungeons. There appears to be some cowardice when Gothmog is charged with capturing Hurin as well. Instead of go and capture him personally he sends his troll guard and only approaches when Hurin is restained.

A Balrog was strong, but an army of 10,000 dwarves would be too great for him.

If the elves had know there was a Balrog there then I am sure they may have done something about it. Glorfindel was already a balrog slayer and now he returned more powerful.

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Where did you get the idea that Balrogs could plough their way thoruhg a host of the Eldar in the first age?

Well let's see:

Could any host of elves, men or Dwarves even begin to combat Ungoliant? The answer would appear to be a resounding no. However a relatively small number (presumably) of Balrogs can drive her off (when Melkor himself cannot?) This puts them on an incredible power level.

With regards to their direct interaction with the Eldar, in general only the most puissant of the Eldar could meet them in single combat, and their defeat generally claimed the lives of those same individuals. Their like (with a few exceptions ie Galadriel) is no longer in Middle Earth. Only 3? Individuals we know of have ever defeated a Balrog. Seeing as Balrogs ie siege of Gondolin tend to lead from the front, it suggests that they were simply ploughing through all but the mightiest of the Eldar.

The very presence of the Balrog unmans both Legolas and Gimli.

It is probable, as per the texts, that the weapons of the Dwarves of the Third Age simply wouldn't have any potency against a Balrog. Whilst not all Balrogs would appear to be created equal, they can (e.g. Gothmog) be on a power scale to rival Sauron. Do we think 20,000 dwarves could defeat Sauron? It was luck and no ordinary sword which could even do Sauron the least of hurts.

The only creatures that had such power were the flying dragons, Glaurung and Carcharoth. The Balrogs were captains, but they usually the more powerful elven lords were enough to at least stall one.

Dragons are not on a greater power scale that Balrogs. There's an old thread on these forums talking about this point also. Remember that a man killed Glaurung, his own father having been easily mastered by Gothmog in single combat.

We have seen the Balrogs sneak around plenty of times. The Balrog of Moria was only alive, because he managed to sneak under the earth. When Morgoth was first overthrown once more the Balrogs snuck in the dungeons. There appears to be some cowardice when Gothmog is charged with capturing Hurin as well. Instead of go and capture him personally he sends his troll guard and only approaches when Hurin is restained.

I think any man would be below the general notice of a Balrog in battle. They go into hiding because their master is overthrown by the Valar, not men or elves. The Balrog would be aware there could be powers in Middle Earth to rival it, it is alone and quite content where it is. It would be sheer stupidity to wander out and invite attention from the wise.

A Balrog was strong, but an army of 10,000 dwarves would be too great for him.

If the elves had know there was a Balrog there then I am sure they may have done something about it. Glorfindel was already a balrog slayer and now he returned more powerful.

I totally disagree, but that's ok. But a balrog is not a sneaky Alien substitute. An army of 10,000 dwarves who are mostly reduced to gibbering wrecks, with useless weapons doesn't seem a terrible opponent for a First Age Fire Maia.

The wise DID know there was a big bad monster in Moria, they chose to leave it alone. No doubt understanding that they would be facing that might be more than their equal. As for Glorfindel, even returned he's still no match for say Feanor, and Feanor (the most powerful Elf who has ever lived) was outmatched by Balrogs ultimately.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Remember that a man killed Glaurung, his own father having been easily mastered by Gothmog in single combat.

But Turin didn't kill Glaurung by fighting him in single combat. The situations aren't really comparable.

[Boromir88]

As Gandalf might say, here follows an account of general info pertaining to Balrogs...

Externally, just looking at it as a story, Balrogs are meant to be a match for the Eldar as Dragons are a match for Men. Balrogs were more than captains leading Morgoth's armies, they were his on-field commanders and highly skilled (plus powerful) combatants. They are meant as a mighty strong opponent for the greatest of the Eldar (or maiar in Gandalf's case). As Draughohtar mentions, they drive off Ungoliant, they slay Feanor, Glorfindel and Gandalf battle Balrogs. Men's "great opponent" are the Dragons. For this match to work, from a story standpoint, dragons have to be slightly less powerful than balrogs, as Men are less powerful than Elves.

Of course there are situations where any sort of 'luck' or certain circumstances can lead to a lesser opponent defeating a greater one. There are also Men who are more powerful than Elves, but in a direct comparison the greatest of the Eldar are superior to the greatest of Men, the average Eldar are greater than the average Men. I'm just talking generally here, in how Balrog, dragons, Eldar, Men...etc are presented in the story.

Now within the context of the story, Balrogs being incarnate could of course be slain and in some hypothetical scenario of "How many dwarves does it take to kill a Balrog?", of course tens of thousands could feasibly do it (that would assume the dwarves don't flee in terror from the aura of fear and power a Balrog can command). But seeing as they were Morgoth's on-field commanders, I doubt a single Balrog would take on tens of thousands of dwarves. If they were vain, reckless idiots, Morgoth wouldn't have used them as captains. They willingly seek out battle and challenge the greatest of Eldar (plus Gandalf), but they also show tactful retreat when it is necessary. They do fight pretty dirty but by no means are they reckless or cowardly.

[Galadriel55]

Thing is, it's physically impossible for anyone to fight 20,000 enemies at a time. I would say even 10 gets a bit crowded.

[Bêthberry]

But really, all it would take to kill a balrog is one Fastitocalon.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Thing is, it's physically impossible for anyone to fight 20,000 enemies at a time. I would say even 10 gets a bit crowded.

Chuck Norris could do it.

I still think this question comes down to the Dwarves having a lack of understanding of what they were dealing with, coupled with the unmanning fear surrounding the Balrog.

Consider the Nazgûl. On their own, Tolkien said they had no great power over the fearless, and by that, he meant physical power. So, one would think that the Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed like the Witch-king eventually was, if only one could summon the courage. However, it took millennia before that circumstance was reached.
Then, magnify the terror of the Nazgûl by many times, and add to it the fear of an unknown quantity with an awe-inspiring visage, and one gets a picture of what the Dwarves faced.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Chuck Norris could do it.

And the phantom could do it standing on his head.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I still think this question comes down to the Dwarves having a lack of understanding of what they were dealing with, coupled with the unmanning fear surrounding the Balrog.

I agree with this. I think the Dwarves never got a clear idea of what is Durin's Bane. And the idea of fear also - the example with Nazgul that you bring up is dead on.

But I would also add that the Balrog fights not only with physical weapons (ie swords etc), or even psychological ones (ie fear), but also with that inner "force" that you can't block with any shield or weapon. When Sauron walked out of Barad-dur wielding the Ring, he didn't suddenly have better sword-fighting skills, but he had this metaphysical power. Similarly with the Balrog. I am of the opinion that Gandalf and Balrog had a battle of wills, both at the door (duh), but mostly on the bridge. The Balrog had a power even Gandalf had a hard time resisting. What could a group of Dwarves do against it? Their power was mostly in physical weapons.

...Or I just like to imagine a metaphysical part to everything.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Well let's see:

Could any host of elves, men or Dwarves even begin to combat Ungoliant? The answer would appear to be a resounding no. However a relatively small number (presumably) of Balrogs can drive her off (when Melkor himself cannot?) This puts them on an incredible power level.

I don't know probably, but sometimes different weapons are needed to fight different opponents. Could Boromir kill the Witch King without the right sword? No. Could Merry? Yes. Now that does not mean Merry is stronger than Boromir.

With regards to their direct interaction with the Eldar, in general only the most puissant of the Eldar could meet them in single combat, and their defeat generally claimed the lives of those same individuals. Their like (with a few exceptions ie Galadriel) is no longer in Middle Earth. Only 3? Individuals we know of have ever defeated a Balrog. Seeing as Balrogs ie siege of Gondolin tend to lead from the front, it suggests that they were simply ploughing through all but the mightiest of the Eldar.

There have only ever been around 3-7 Balrogs and closer to 3 than 7. What do you mean the like of the Eldar in the first age are not around? Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Galdor, Glorfindel and Gildor to name but a few. Probably throw in Elronds sons as well.

It took Fingon riding at the front of 200 elves to drive off a baby Glaurung.

The very presence of the Balrog unmans both Legolas and Gimli.

Though it does not do the same to Boromir and Aragorn, both who were ready to fight it.

It is probable, as per the texts, that the weapons of the Dwarves of the Third Age simply wouldn't have any potency against a Balrog. Whilst not all Balrogs would appear to be created equal, they can (e.g. Gothmog) be on a power scale to rival Sauron. Do we think 20,000 dwarves could defeat Sauron? It was luck and no ordinary sword which could even do Sauron the least of hurts.

Even Sauron was defeated in combat when he faced Elendil and Gil-galad. How was it luck that Sauron was defeated? Further more do you realise that it was dwarvish smiths that made that Narsil?

Dragons are not on a greater power scale that Balrogs. There's an old thread on these forums talking about this point also. Remember that a man killed Glaurung, his own father having been easily mastered by Gothmog in single combat.

Turin arguably was a greater fighter than the Elvish Lords of the time. He certainly was physically stronger. Not that Turin actually fought Glaurung, but stabbed him from below.

How was Hurin easily mastered by Gothmog in combat? In fact it was quite the opposite with Gothmog waiting until his troll guard and thousands of orcs had restrained Hurin, before he approached.

The great dragons are certainly on a greater scale than the Balrogs. Even Smaug was a threat to Rivendell and Lorien. Do you think the Balrog would have any hope of destroying Rivendell or Lorien?

Balrogs had greater spiritual potency than dragons, but I would not say more than Glaurung and perhaps Ancalagon. Their potent spiritual power would be a great weapon against the dwarves, but less so against High Elves capable of resisting.

I think any man would be below the general notice of a Balrog in battle. They go into hiding because their master is overthrown by the Valar, not men or elves. The Balrog would be aware there could be powers in Middle Earth to rival it, it is alone and quite content where it is. It would be sheer stupidity to wander out and invite attention from the wise.

The Balrogs are strong, but you are greatly overrating their physical power. I would imagine many of the men of the first age would be able to match one including Turin, Beren, Hurin, Galdor and others. Then so would many of the kings of Numenor and obviosuly Elendil.

I totally disagree, but that's ok. But a balrog is not a sneaky Alien substitute. An army of 10,000 dwarves who are mostly reduced to gibbering wrecks, with useless weapons doesn't seem a terrible opponent for a First Age Fire Maia.

How are Balrogs not sneaky? They double teamed and killed Fingon from behind, as I said before Gothmog did not want to face Hurin. Why would the dwarvish weapons be useless? Especially when swords like Narsil can do them so much hurt.

The wise DID know there was a big bad monster in Moria, they chose to leave it alone. No doubt understanding that they would be facing that might be more than their equal. As for Glorfindel, even returned he's still no match for say Feanor, and Feanor (the most powerful Elf who has ever lived) was outmatched by Balrogs ultimately.

The wise did not know what the monster was. Overall power does not mean you are the greatest fighter. Luthien overall was the most powerful elf. Feanor was more powerful than his brother Fingolfin, but not as valiant in a fight. Glorfindel was already an elf lord powerful enough to kill a Balrog and he had his powers increased almost to the same level as Olorin.

Now Feanor himself was killed by all the Balrogs together.

There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Though it does not do the same to Boromir and Aragorn, both who were ready to fight it.

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

Boromir is a warrior, in every meaning of the word, including having an excessive pride by not knowing when he's overmatched by an opponent. Boromir was one of the few who did not flee from the Nazgul, when Sauron launched a diversionary attack on Osgiliath to get the Nazgul across the Anduin and hunt for the Ring. Boromir also blasted his horn to challenge the Balrog in Moria. His death is purely a warrior's death, because simply put, Boromir did not flee from battles (except in this case when Gandalf refused to let Aragorn and Boromir aid him, for as Lal brings up Gandalf's statement).

The Balrogs are strong, but you are greatly overrating their physical power. I would imagine many of the men of the first age would be able to match one including Turin, Beren, Hurin, Galdor and others. Then so would many of the kings of Numenor and obviosuly Elendil.

It might be worth pointing out here, we know practically the Nazgul's only weapon was fear. They had no great physical strength over the fearless (Letter 210). Balrogs, on the other hand, could instill fear as a weapon, but it was by no means their primary weapon. They were combatants, skilled in the use of a variety of weapons (swords, whips, axes, hand-to-hand fighting). They typically sought confrontation with the greatest opponent. They were definitely dishonourable in fighting (but dragons weren't?), but this doesn't mean they were not front-line commanders who also sought battle.

How are Balrogs not sneaky? They double teamed and killed Fingon from behind, as I said before Gothmog did not want to face Hurin. Why would the dwarvish weapons be useless? Especially when swords like Narsil can do them so much hurt.

They do fight dishonourably, without a question, but Gothmog was engaged in combat with Fingon for quite a while, before he had another Balrog intervene. No one can definitively say whether Gothmog was afraid of losing or just really intent upon winning (thus resort to dirty tactics and end it).

There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it.

Don't downplay Gandalf here. The way the battle unfolds is one of my favorite pieces of writing in LOTR.

Gandalf tries to put a shutting spell on the door, Durin's Bane counters and Gandalf has to quickly speak a 'Word of Command' to try to shut the door. Durin's Bane responds with such a terrible counter spell, the door explodes and Gandalf says it nearly "breaks him"

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf breaks the bridge, Durin's Bane drags him down and when they do reach a bottom "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him." Both at this point, from either the fall or the blows (Gandalf also said he was burned) had sustained wounds far beyond what a Man could endure. The fight continues on the peak until finally Gandalf slays him, but Gandalf is also killed in the process.

If a Balrog died in combat, not one instance did the Balrog not kill its assailant. I don't say this to mean in a hypothetical situation, under no circumstances could someone kill a Balrog and then walk away from it. But gathering the battles we do know, probability and odds all point to, if someone is powerful enough to slay a Balrog, that person would be killed as well.

They were dishonourable and no doubt resorted to dirty tactics when they wanted, but this does not change the fact they were skilled fighters, skilled to use a variety of weapons, and possessed not only great spiritual power, but physical power.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

I realise that, but it shows that it was possible overcome the fear. Boromir managed to do it with just pride alone.

Boromir is a warrior, in every meaning of the word, including having an excessive pride by not knowing when he's overmatched by an opponent. Boromir was one of the few who did not flee from the Nazgul, when Sauron launched a diversionary attack on Osgiliath to get the Nazgul across the Anduin and hunt for the Ring. Boromir also blasted his horn to challenge the Balrog in Moria. His death is purely a warrior's death, because simply put, Boromir did not flee from battles (except in this case when Gandalf refused to let Aragorn and Boromir aid him, for as Lal brings up Gandalf's statement).

Yes Boromir for all his faults was a true warrior and that's why his father loved him best. I dare say if there was a vote for the best man in ME, prior to the War of the Ring, Boromir would have easily won the populace vote.

It might be worth pointing out here, we know practically the Nazgul's only weapon was fear. They had no great physical strength over the fearless (Letter 210). Balrogs, on the other hand, could instill fear as a weapon, but it was by no means their primary weapon. They were combatants, skilled in the use of a variety of weapons (swords, whips, axes, hand-to-hand fighting). They typically sought confrontation with the greatest opponent. They were definitely dishonourable in fighting (but dragons weren't?), but this doesn't mean they were not front-line commanders who also sought battle.

No I agree that Balrogs were great powers physically, but was pointing out that there greater power was the power of the spirit. Even Glaurung was more powerful spiritually than physically.

As for dragons, no doubt they were dishonourable, but was just pointing out how Balrogs were too. I was dispelling the idea, that a Balrog would not be content to sneak around Moria.

They do fight dishonourably, without a question, but Gothmog was engaged in combat with Fingon for quite a while, before he had another Balrog intervene. No one can definitively say whether Gothmog was afraid of losing or just really intent upon winning (thus resort to dirty tactics and end it).

It's true, but this kind of helps illustrate the point about Balrogs and dragons. Fingon fought a famous duel face to face with Gothmog. When Glaurung was still young it took Fingon leading 200 elves to drive him off.

Don't downplay Gandalf here. The way the battle unfolds is one of my favorite pieces of writing in LOTR.

Gandalf tries to put a shutting spell on the door, Durin's Bane counters and Gandalf has to quickly speak a 'Word of Command' to try to shut the door. Durin's Bane responds with such a terrible counter spell, the door explodes and Gandalf says it nearly "breaks him"

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf breaks the bridge, Durin's Bane drags him down and when they do reach a bottom "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him." Both at this point, from either the fall or the blows (Gandalf also said he was burned) had sustained wounds far beyond what a human body could endure. The fight continues on the peaks until finally Gandalf slays it, but Gandalf is also killed in the process.

If a Balrog died in combat, no one instance did the Balrog not kill its assailant. I don't say this to mean in a hypothetical situation, under no circumstances could someone kill a Balrog and then walk away from it. But gathering the battles we do know, probability and odds all point to, if someone is powerful enough to slay a Balrog, that person would be killed as well.

They were dishonourable and no doubt resorted to dirty tactics when they wanted, but this does not change the fact they were skilled fighters, skilled to use a variety of weapons, and possessed not only great spiritual power, but physical power.

I would not try and downplay Gandalf, but rather if Gandalf was enough then think about if Saruman, Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and Celeborn were all there too. I agree with you too Gandalf's sacrifice was brilliantly written.

I am not sure about your last assessment that if someone was powerful enough to slay a Balrog they would not walk away from it. Balrogs, maybe as many as 4, were slain against the host of Valinor. Feanor himself was putting up a fight against most of the Balrogs together. I would be hesitant to suggest either he would not win one one.

That being said the Balrog was a great and powerful terror. However, to suggest he could take on thousands of Dwarves at once is too much for me. That apart there would at least be a few survivors, who would have spread the word if he had fought them all at once.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

I still have this niggling feeling that Aragorn knew what was in there while Gandalf did not, given his words to him before they decide to go through Moria.

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf is possibly the only person in Middle-earth with enough power to hope to battle this Balrog. He has been sent there by the Valar and he carries their blessing. I also suspect that he may be the only one of all the Istari to be capable of this - note that he specifies 'fire' here and we know he uses fire and light (and Light) on many occasions. He is also known to arrive with the dawn, as at Helm's Deep and Anor is the Sun. A perfect opposition to creatures such as Balrogs who are part darkness (or Unlight).

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

Galadriel should be possessed of power to deal with the Balrog, and I don't see how she could not know it was there, not far from her borders, however the crucial point I think in why Gandalf is particularly able to handle it is that he has the blessing of the Valar. Galdriel does not. She is still at that point somewhat under a cloud.

Tolkien was constantly altering and rewriting his Legendarium. Glorfindel was the one and the same as the Balrog killer of Gondolin.

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

Glorfindel is another possible suitable opponent, yes. However again, I think that what he does not possess is the blessing of the Valar.

As to why the White Council did not deal with the Balrog, it's a moot point as to whether they knew it was there. There was something that had scared the Dwarves away, but who would be willing to find out? And even if they knew, it was likely that they chose to leave it well alone - it had frightened the Dwarves out of one of their strongholds and what is that in comparison to the threat that Sauron had faced and would face to all of Middle-earth?

[Rhod the Red]

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

Saruman's clearly someone whom likes the comfort of Rivendell, Minas Tirith and then Orthanc and Radagast is going native west of Mirkwood so Gandalf is the logical choice to go investigate.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I still have this niggling feeling that Aragorn knew what was in there while Gandalf did not, given his words to him before they decide to go through Moria.

I don't think so; Aragorn's warning seems to me to be based upon a combination of his own previous experience passing through Moria and a sense of precognitive foreboding about Gandalf's fate. When the Company is debating Aragorn says:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

I believe Aragorn sensed the Balrog without knowing what it was. If he had an idea of its true nature, surely he would have mentioned it to Gandalf privately, especially considering that they had already discussed the possibility of taking the Moria route.

That may beg the question of why Gandalf did not sense the Balrog on his prior journey there. My theory might be that it felt the presence of Gandalf first, and did not desire a confrontation then. Perhaps it was the power of the Ring that called to the Balrog (and maybe too the Watcher in the water) when the Fellowship passed through, whereas Aragorn and Gandalf were unmolested when they went in alone.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As to why the White Council did not deal with the Balrog, it's a moot point as to whether they knew it was there. There was something that had scared the Dwarves away, but who would be willing to find out? And even if they knew, it was likely that they chose to leave it well alone - it had frightened the Dwarves out of one of their strongholds and what is that in comparison to the threat that Sauron had faced and would face to all of Middle-earth?

Indeed. The primary focus of the Istari was Sauron, and those who directly aided him. Whatever the evil in Moria was, it wasn't likely to be much concern if it wasn't seen as a ally of Sauron's, actively or potentially. After all, in UT Gandalf tells the hobbits in Minas Tirith that he was only minding the Smaug affair because he feared Sauron might use Smaug in his war effort.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

Saruman's clearly someone whom likes the comfort of Rivendell, Minas Tirith and then Orthanc and Radagast is going native west of Mirkwood so Gandalf is the logical choice to go investigate.

No, Gandalf tells the Fellowship he entered Moria to look for Thorin's father Thráin.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

The first time Gandalf went to Moria he was looking for Thráin: "Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost." (The Fellowship of the Ring p.289)
I've always found this a very curious point, because I always got the impression that Gandalf had stumbled upon Thráin quite by accident in Dol Guldur and that given that he was only able to reason out the Dwarf's identity much later (Thráin couldn't remember his own name) it seems odd that Gandalf had actually gone searching for him. That being said, perhaps in his efforts to see if Smaug could be dealt with he did at some point deliberately seek Thráin - just in the wrong place.
In this way it would appear that Gandalf's presence there wasn't enough to stir the Balrog; he learned nothing of it on his first journey - could the Ring have been involved? Presumably Gandalf's power was more "veiled" on his first visit. It was when the Fellowship passed through that the Balrog appeared; I wonder if it had more to do with the Ring or with Gandalf using his power a bit more liberally on the second occasion.
I get the impression that since Durin's Bane seemed content to lurk in Moria - and because no one seemingly knew what a truly terrible being it was - people like the White Council never risked action against it.

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't know probably, but sometimes different weapons are needed to fight different opponents...

Come now, it's not a matter of weaponry. Tulkas fights bare handed and is the mightiest, physically speaking, of the Valar. Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

What do you mean the like of the Eldar in the first age are not around?

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

As for Glaurung, of course they are potent, but their inate power is naturally less than that of a Maia, being secondary products of Morgoth's breeding program.

As for Aragorn and Boromir, one might construe that Boromir was too ignorant to be afraid, and Aragorn is far far from an ordinary man. Aragorn and a small band of men turn the tide of the Battle of the Pelenor fields. (As opposed to the hoardes of the dead as per PJ's version).

Even Sauron was defeated in combat when he faced Elendil and Gil-galad. How was it luck that Sauron was defeated? Further more do you realise that it was dwarvish smiths that made that Narsil?

Both Gil-Galad (vastly inately powerful) and Elendil (not exactly an ordinary man) are defeated utterly by Sauron, but deal him sufficiently stunning a blow (series of blows) to incapacitate him so that Isildur can take advantage of the situation and cut the ring from his hand. I don't think that their are smiths equal to Telchar left in the world by the third age!

Turin arguably was a greater fighter than the Elvish Lords of the time. He certainly was physically stronger. Not that Turin actually fought Glaurung, but stabbed him from below.

How was Hurin easily mastered by Gothmog in combat? In fact it was quite the opposite with Gothmog waiting until his troll guard and thousands of orcs had restrained Hurin, before he approached.

Thousands of orcs? The troll guard certainly, but Gothmog didn't struggle in the end. Hardly comparable to Feanor who held off (all perhaps) of the Balrogs for a time, but fell in the end. As for Glaurung, the difference is that he died from a single stab wound (from an outstanding sword no doubt), whereas Feanor dealt Gothmog many a blow and yet the chief of the Balrogs was not imperilled.

The great dragons are certainly on a greater scale than the Balrogs....

In my opinion, certainly not. Dragons are bred creatures. Gothmog and Sauron would not have long stayed at the head of the armies of Morgoth if their physical power could be contested. Sorcerously speaking a dragon (no dragon ever) could match a Balrog: an eternal spirit of fire. There's no need for a fist-fight, the Balrog is the natural master.

The Balrogs are strong, but you are greatly overrating their physical power. I would imagine many of the men of the first age would be able to match one including Turin, Beren, Hurin, Galdor and others. Then so would many of the kings of Numenor and obviosuly Elendil.

Combat with a Balrog is about far more than sheer physicality. Glaurung easily masters the mind of the Children of Hurin, I don't doubt a Balrog would achieve the same feat. The Eldar have a natural resistance, and deep deep lore, and yet even the mightiest fall before the Balrogs; only claiming victory with their own deaths.

How are Balrogs not sneaky? They double teamed and killed Fingon from behind, as I said before Gothmog did not want to face Hurin. Why would the dwarvish weapons be useless? Especially when swords like Narsil can do them so much hurt.

Which gives you an idea of the power required to combat a Balrog. Feanor is the mightiest child of Illuvatar, and he could hold off a host of Balrogs. Fingon can manage two. (Let's not assume the Balrogs became stupid around Feanor and only attacked from the front.) Gothmog has no need to face Feanor, he is a General at the time. As for Narsil, it requires Elven smiths to reforge the blade, the lore of Telchar is long lost to the Dwarves.

The wise did not know what the monster was. Overall power does not mean you are the greatest fighter. Luthien overall was the most powerful elf. Feanor was more powerful than his brother Fingolfin, but not as valiant in a fight. Glorfindel was already an elf lord powerful enough to kill a Balrog and he had his powers increased almost to the same level as Olorin.

Now Feanor himself was killed by all the Balrogs together.

There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it.

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him"

Glorfindel is all speculation tbh, and indeed appears to be retcon'ing on the part of Tolkien.

As for Gandalf he is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power, and he still has to die to defeat the Balrog. None of the wise would have willingly picked that fight needlessly.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

Sorry to split hairs but I believe it was actually Eru Himself who destroyed the Great Armament, not Manwë. The Valar laid down their guardianship of the world temporarily so that Eru could intervene.
I agree though that it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine the Balrog of Moria being capable of destroying the Dwarves in numbers to an extent. My reading of Professor Tolkien's work has always suggested to me that the confrontations involving powerful beings tend to involve some element of spiritual potency, the "might" of a creature which involves more than physical strength or skill. Despite all their crafts and such lore as they possessed, the Dwarves have always appeared to me to largely be beings who were not especially mighty in this regard, at least compared to those who were especially potent among the Ainur, the Noldor and the Edain (and Dúnedain). Consider some of the memorable heroics of Elves and Men mentioned in this discussion compared to some of the great feats of Dwarven heroes: Azaghâl wounding Glauring or Dáin Ironfoot slaying Azog. These are impressive deeds in their own way, no doubt, but not necessarily on the same level as, say, Ecthelion of the Fountain against Gothmog or Turambar against Glaurung. I don't mean to suggest that the Dwarves were inferior as soldiers compared to Elves and Men in general - it appears that they were among the more formidable forces in military terms - but that they lacked the supremely heroic individuals of other races.
That being said, given that Durin's Folk had sufficient numbers to colonise other regions after the abandonment of Moria it would suggest to me that it was not so much a matter of Durin's Bane wiping out enormous armies as it was killing those forces sent against it (including two kings) in such a way that the survivors could see that trying to withstand it was futile and that they would eventually all have been killed had they stayed. The situation would suggest to me that the Balrog could probably chew through such opposition as was deployed against it by the Dwarves; a mighty hero could have opposed it as in the Elder Days (and eventually did in the shape of Gandalf) but the Dwarves themselves lacked the means to handle it.
I don't really see the Balrog wiping out armies of thousands of Dwarves single-handedly either but the examples of the First Age would suggest to me that such beings were generally at risk mostly from individuals of relatively comparable power and perhaps were not to be worn down by numbers alone.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Sorry to split hairs but I believe it was actually Eru Himself who destroyed the Great Armament, not Manwë. The Valar laid down their guardianship of the world temporarily so that Eru could intervene.
I agree though that it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine the Balrog of Moria being capable of destroying the Dwarves in numbers to an extent. My reading of Professor Tolkien's work has always suggested to me that the confrontations involving powerful beings tend to involve some element of spiritual potency, the "might" of a creature which involves more than physical strength or skill. Despite all their crafts and such lore as they possessed, the Dwarves have always appeared to me to largely be beings who were not especially mighty in this regard, at least compared to those who were especially potent among the Ainur, the Noldor and the Edain (and Dúnedain). Consider some of the memorable heroics of Elves and Men mentioned in this discussion compared to some of the great feats of Dwarven heroes: Azaghâl wounding Glauring or Dáin Ironfoot slaying Azog. These are impressive deeds in their own way, no doubt, but not necessarily on the same level as, say, Ecthelion of the Fountain against Gothmog or Turambar against Glaurung. I don't mean to suggest that the Dwarves were inferior as soldiers compared to Elves and Men in general - it appears that they were among the more formidable forces in military terms - but that they lacked the supremely heroic individuals of other races.
That being said, given that Durin's Folk had sufficient numbers to colonise other regions after the abandonment of Moria it would suggest to me that it was not so much a matter of Durin's Bane wiping out enormous armies as it was killing those forces sent against it (including two kings) in such a way that the survivors could see that trying to withstand it was futile and that they would eventually all have been killed had they stayed. The situation would suggest to me that the Balrog could probably chew through such opposition as was deployed against it by the Dwarves; a mighty hero could have opposed it as in the Elder Days (and eventually did in the shape of Gandalf) but the Dwarves themselves lacked the means to handle it.
I don't really see the Balrog wiping out armies of thousands of Dwarves single-handedly either but the examples of the First Age would suggest to me that such beings were generally at risk mostly from individuals of relatively comparable power and perhaps were not to be worn down by numbers alone.

One point I've not seen raised in this thread is this: If balrogs were indeed capable of wiping out whole dwarven armies single handedly, why then did the balrog of Moria not intervene and hand an easy victory to his orc minions over the dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (a.k.a. Dimrill Dale)? Certainly he was lurking within Moria and well aware of what was happening outside - Dain saw it after slaying Azog just inside Moria's East Gate. I suspect that, while very powerful, the balrog was, ultimately, incarnate and could be slain, especially against a large, organized army. He was not by any means invinceable.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Elemmakil

One point I've not seen raised in this thread is this: If balrogs were indeed capable of wiping out whole dwarven armies single handedly, why then did the balrog of Moria not intervene and hand an easy victory to his orc minions over the dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (a.k.a. Dimrill Dale)? Certainly he was lurking within Moria and well aware of what was happening outside - Dain saw it after slaying Azog just inside Moria's East Gate. I suspect that, while very powerful, the balrog was, ultimately, incarnate and could be slain, especially against a large, organized army. He was not by any means invinceable.

Yet Dáin claimed that "The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." I don't doubt that the Balrog was an incarnate being which could be slain (indeed clearly it was: Gandalf killed it), but apparently the Dwarves lacked the means to defeat it. If I was to suggest why it didn't aid the Orcs in the Battle of Azanulbizar my main suspicion would be that it simply didn't care about the outcome of the battle. I don't believe that the Orcs of Moria were the minions of the Balrog, they just happened to share Moria with it. Azog claimed to be king and master of Moria and made no mention of the Balrog. If the Orcs of the Mountains owed allegiance to anyone beyond their own rulers it was Sauron alone: "in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them." (Morgoth's Ring) I would theorise that the Balrog never intervened in the battle because it didn't care about the outcome, having no stake in Azog's victory and knowing that the Dwarves could not defeat it. Evidently Balrogs could be killed, but the evidence would suggest it could only be slain by an opponent of comparable power which the Dwarves lacked. The most puzzling thing about Durin's Bane is probably why it was content to remain in Moria in any event.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Come now, it's not a matter of weaponry. Tulkas fights bare handed and is the mightiest, physically speaking, of the Valar. Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

I did not mean literally a question of physical weapons, but having the right skill set to defeat certain opponents.

Manwe did not deal with Ar-pharazon the Golden, Eru did.

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

How is Glorfindel a matter of speculation? He is Balrog killer returned and greatly enhanced in power. What suggest tht Eladan and Elrohir have a standing closer to the Dunedain? Legolas states the opposite of what you claim and compares them to Elf Lords rather than the Dunedain.

As for Glaurung, of course they are potent, but their inate power is naturally less than that of a Maia, being secondary products of Morgoth's breeding program.

I think it is likely that Glaurung was a maiar and just because they generally Maiar were greater in might that other equal beings; this does not mean it was always the case. Luthien was more powerful than many maiar.

As for Aragorn and Boromir, one might construe that Boromir was too ignorant to be afraid, and Aragorn is far far from an ordinary man. Aragorn and a small band of men turn the tide of the Battle of the Pelenor fields. (As opposed to the hoardes of the dead as per PJ's version).

Depends on what you call a small band. He certainly had numbers in the hundreds when he arrived. Ignorance would not save Boromir from the metaphysical power of the Balrog, it was his courage that drove him om.

Both Gil-Galad (vastly inately powerful) and Elendil (not exactly an ordinary man) are defeated utterly by Sauron, but deal him sufficiently stunning a blow (series of blows) to incapacitate him so that Isildur can take advantage of the situation and cut the ring from his hand. I don't think that their are smiths equal to Telchar left in the world by the third age!

Tolkien uses the word 'overthrew' this suggest more than they just stunned him. It suggest they actually killed his physical body.

There does not have to be a smith equal to Telchar for his weapons to still be around and used by the dwarves of Durin's house.

Thousands of orcs? The troll guard certainly, but Gothmog didn't struggle in the end. Hardly comparable to Feanor who held off (all perhaps) of the Balrogs for a time, but fell in the end. As for Glaurung, the difference is that he died from a single stab wound (from an outstanding sword no doubt), whereas Feanor dealt Gothmog many a blow and yet the chief of the Balrogs was not imperilled.

In some versions it was a thousand orcs Hurin killed, in others seventy trolls. Why would Gothmog struggle when his opponent was restrained?

Feanor was not alone and where do you read he delt Gothmog any blow? He fought them and was eventually killed by Gothmog.

How is dying from a single stab wound reason to doubt his power? He was stabbed with a great sword right up to the hilt. I think a similar blow would kill Gothmog too.

In my opinion, certainly not. Dragons are bred creatures. Gothmog and Sauron would not have long stayed at the head of the armies of Morgoth if their physical power could be contested. Sorcerously speaking a dragon (no dragon ever) could match a Balrog: an eternal spirit of fire. There's no need for a fist-fight, the Balrog is the natural master.

As said before Glaurung was probably a maiar or at the very least a highly raised animal like Huan. We have already seen how Sauron fared when faced with such creatures. Well that goes against what we see. Glaurung leads a train of Balrogs. Glaurung is sent to destroy Turin rather Gothmog. Even Melain a very, powerful Maia admits that she does not have the power to match Glaurung and claims there is nobody on ME who does. I think she would have an informed opinion.

Combat with a Balrog is about far more than sheer physicality. Glaurung easily masters the mind of the Children of Hurin, I don't doubt a Balrog would achieve the same feat. The Eldar have a natural resistance, and deep deep lore, and yet even the mightiest fall before the Balrogs; only claiming victory with their own deaths.

Mastering the House of Hurin is no easy task. Morgoth himself failed when he tried to do so with Hurin. Nor did Gothmog managed to hold complete sway over Turin, but had to send him on a fools errand. That said Glaurung was a greater power than Gothmog, greater than even Melian.

Which gives you an idea of the power required to combat a Balrog. Feanor is the mightiest child of Illuvatar, and he could hold off a host of Balrogs. Fingon can manage two. (Let's not assume the Balrogs became stupid around Feanor and only attacked from the front.) Gothmog has no need to face Feanor, he is a General at the time. As for Narsil, it requires Elven smiths to reforge the blade, the lore of Telchar is long lost to the Dwarves.

The Feanor quote is an old one and I think it is safe to say Luthien was more powerful than him by the end of the Legendarium. She put the entirety of Angband to sleep.


There were never more than say 5 or so Balrogs. Feanor was not alone when he was fighting them. He had his personal guard around him and they would have gladly given their lives to save his.

Gloin says that the dwarves lost their skill to make weapons of old after the fall of Moria and Erebor. I am not even sure Narsil required elvish smiths to reforge it, but it was just the best choice logistically with Aragorn currently being at Rivendell.

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him"

Glorfindel is all speculation tbh, and indeed appears to be retcon'ing on the part of Tolkien.

As for Gandalf he is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power, and he still has to die to defeat the Balrog. None of the wise would have willingly picked that fight needlessly.

Tolkien was constantly altering and rewriting his Legendarium. Glorfindel was the one and the same as the Balrog killer of Gondolin.

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How is Glorfindel a matter of speculation? He is Balrog killer returned and greatly enhanced in power. What suggest tht Eladan and Elrohir have a standing closer to the Dunedain? Legolas states the opposite of what you claim and compares them to Elf Lords rather than the Dunedain.

Glorfindel I certainly agree, but Elladan and Elrohir were born in the 3rd Age. They were premier orc slayers, and travelled often with the Dunedain, they also tended to the habit of travelling to certain areas and teaching people how to best kill orcs, but as far as having the power to kill a Balrog...I'd say no.

I think it is likely that Glaurung was a maiar and just because they generally Maiar were greater in might that other equal beings; this does not mean it was always the case. Luthien was more powerful than many maiar.

I don't think there is anything to suggest Glaurung was a maia. He was raised in Angband, not a maia who decided to become incarnate in a dragon-form:

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons,...~Of the Return of the Noldor

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Glorfindel I certainly agree, but Elladan and Elrohir were born in the 3rd Age. They were premier orc slayers, and travelled often with the Dunedain, they also tended to the habit of travelling to certain areas and teaching people how to best kill orcs, but as far as having the power to kill a Balrog...I'd say no.

It is a matter of opinion but they are the sons of Elrond and the grandsons of Galadriel. Legolas seems to look up to them and the rejection version Eorl's charge has them as great powers.

I don't think there is anything to suggest Glaurung was a maia. He was raised in Angband, not a maia who decided to become incarnate in a dragon-form:

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

No, but Tolkien does discuss whether Huan and the Eagles were Maiar. He ultimately rejects this idea, because he does not feel that a Maiar would be gifted to an elf by Orome or mate with base beats.

However, debased and evil spirits/ainur like Ungoliant did and possible some of the great orcs too.

Children of Hurin

His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.

Melian speaking to Mablung about his encounter with Glaurung.

'By ill chance you were matched with a power too great for you, too great indeed for now all that dwell in Middle Earth.'

Glaurung was a greater power than Melian.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

Glaurung seems to have been a body containing some measure of Morgoth's own spiritual essence.

And there right before [Nienor] was the great head of Glaurung who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes looked in his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.

UT Narn I Hîn Húrin

I think Glaurung himself, as the "father" of dragons, was primarily an extension of Morgoth's will. Later dragons that were bred (by unknown means) were, I think, more independent.

x/d with Cellurdur

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Manwe did not deal with Ar-pharazon the Golden, Eru did.

Fair point.

As for Glorfindel the enhanced, we know very little about the extent of his puissance post-return. Would he stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the great of the first-age? Surely. Yet none of those managed to defeat a Balrog without, themselves, dying.

With regards to Glaurung, and Melian's quote for example, do you suppose she included Morgoth in that estimation, or Sauron? I suspect she was meaning amongst those who might be expected to combat him. Melian's own power does not lie in combat, but rather preservation. Nonetheless the death of Glaurung does not claim that of his slayer (no matter how he died.)

As for Aragorn and Boromir. Well in terms of the thousands on the battle-field, Aragorn was bringing a tiny force. The Eorlingas were facing certain defeat, and yet Aragorn and a relatively very small force, totally reverse the situation.

As for Boromir, I would argue that he simply wasn't possessed of elder blood strong enough to be receptive to an ancient power such as the balrog.

As for the death of Sauron, though ultimately not in the final publicaiton Isildur was quote saying, "Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?" I suspect removed as it would render Isildur in a very petty light.

We know much lore is lost to the Dwarves by this time: they didn't know what a Balrog was for example :P Further Telchar was the greatest smith ever, and even then not the ultimate equal of say Feanor. He is a producer of masterworks. Not all dwarf smiths are even close to his equal.

Hurin and Feanor? Feanor outdistanced most of his army and his sons and had 'few' about him (no cadre of bodyguards - you don't think his sons would have kept up if it was easy for bodyguards?) Feanor was essentially combatting a host of Balrogs single handed.

Hurin, Gothmog put in the effort he had to, no more no less. The Balrogs felt it essential to come against Feanor personally, Hurin - not so much.


It's possible a similar wound from a similar blade would have killed Gothmog, and yet his ultimate death required Ecthelion to die himself, both arms broken, causing Gothmog the double-threat of impaling and drowning. I suspect water to a fire spirit might have been the more fel wound.

What makes you think Melian is so puissant? Why would she have extensive combat powers?

Further not all Balrogs are equal I imagine BUT I go to your own assertion of having the right 'skill set.' Glaurung was bred to be the ideal weapon of Morgoth against the free-peoples of Middle-Earth. There is no implication for example that Balrogs are generally capable of much in the way of speech or cunning thought etc. They are pretty brute-like a great deal of the time. Gothmog didn't exactly do a superb job leading armies now did he? Thus Glaurung was needed.

All the same Turin was easily fooled by the arts of Glaurung, and his sister utterly swayed. As for Hurin, Morgoth wanted him to suffer, or willingly turn.

I doubt that Luthien would have been making any Silmarils in her spare time. Further when she died she didn't do a 'Yoda.'

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

They didn't exactly do a great job with Sauron from all accounts. I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

The reason may be that a Balrog can one day leave Moria. While Sauron was absent, the Balrog had a potency to become a new Dark Lord. With Sauron back, both perspectives of Sauron subduing the Balrog or the Balrog obtaining The Ring were equally perilous.

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

[tom the eldest]

200.000 dwarves?really?i thought the dwarves has much smaller population.if they did have a population that big however,the soldiers probably only one fourth of the number.the mean around 50.000.and that was too big even for a blarog.i think that the balrog ambush the dwarves,and when there number are low enough,he quickly make an assault on the main halls,defeating the remaining soldiers.as for the dwarves dont recognize the balrog,it must have been using its shapeshofting abilities,like turning into just a shadowy figures or something else.