Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't know probably, but sometimes different weapons are needed to fight different opponents...

Come now, it's not a matter of weaponry. Tulkas fights bare handed and is the mightiest, physically speaking, of the Valar. Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

What do you mean the like of the Eldar in the first age are not around?

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

As for Glaurung, of course they are potent, but their inate power is naturally less than that of a Maia, being secondary products of Morgoth's breeding program.

As for Aragorn and Boromir, one might construe that Boromir was too ignorant to be afraid, and Aragorn is far far from an ordinary man. Aragorn and a small band of men turn the tide of the Battle of the Pelenor fields. (As opposed to the hoardes of the dead as per PJ's version).

Even Sauron was defeated in combat when he faced Elendil and Gil-galad. How was it luck that Sauron was defeated? Further more do you realise that it was dwarvish smiths that made that Narsil?

Both Gil-Galad (vastly inately powerful) and Elendil (not exactly an ordinary man) are defeated utterly by Sauron, but deal him sufficiently stunning a blow (series of blows) to incapacitate him so that Isildur can take advantage of the situation and cut the ring from his hand. I don't think that their are smiths equal to Telchar left in the world by the third age!

Turin arguably was a greater fighter than the Elvish Lords of the time. He certainly was physically stronger. Not that Turin actually fought Glaurung, but stabbed him from below.

How was Hurin easily mastered by Gothmog in combat? In fact it was quite the opposite with Gothmog waiting until his troll guard and thousands of orcs had restrained Hurin, before he approached.

Thousands of orcs? The troll guard certainly, but Gothmog didn't struggle in the end. Hardly comparable to Feanor who held off (all perhaps) of the Balrogs for a time, but fell in the end. As for Glaurung, the difference is that he died from a single stab wound (from an outstanding sword no doubt), whereas Feanor dealt Gothmog many a blow and yet the chief of the Balrogs was not imperilled.

The great dragons are certainly on a greater scale than the Balrogs....

In my opinion, certainly not. Dragons are bred creatures. Gothmog and Sauron would not have long stayed at the head of the armies of Morgoth if their physical power could be contested. Sorcerously speaking a dragon (no dragon ever) could match a Balrog: an eternal spirit of fire. There's no need for a fist-fight, the Balrog is the natural master.

The Balrogs are strong, but you are greatly overrating their physical power. I would imagine many of the men of the first age would be able to match one including Turin, Beren, Hurin, Galdor and others. Then so would many of the kings of Numenor and obviosuly Elendil.

Combat with a Balrog is about far more than sheer physicality. Glaurung easily masters the mind of the Children of Hurin, I don't doubt a Balrog would achieve the same feat. The Eldar have a natural resistance, and deep deep lore, and yet even the mightiest fall before the Balrogs; only claiming victory with their own deaths.

How are Balrogs not sneaky? They double teamed and killed Fingon from behind, as I said before Gothmog did not want to face Hurin. Why would the dwarvish weapons be useless? Especially when swords like Narsil can do them so much hurt.

Which gives you an idea of the power required to combat a Balrog. Feanor is the mightiest child of Illuvatar, and he could hold off a host of Balrogs. Fingon can manage two. (Let's not assume the Balrogs became stupid around Feanor and only attacked from the front.) Gothmog has no need to face Feanor, he is a General at the time. As for Narsil, it requires Elven smiths to reforge the blade, the lore of Telchar is long lost to the Dwarves.

The wise did not know what the monster was. Overall power does not mean you are the greatest fighter. Luthien overall was the most powerful elf. Feanor was more powerful than his brother Fingolfin, but not as valiant in a fight. Glorfindel was already an elf lord powerful enough to kill a Balrog and he had his powers increased almost to the same level as Olorin.

Now Feanor himself was killed by all the Balrogs together.

There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it.

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him"

Glorfindel is all speculation tbh, and indeed appears to be retcon'ing on the part of Tolkien.

As for Gandalf he is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power, and he still has to die to defeat the Balrog. None of the wise would have willingly picked that fight needlessly.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

Sorry to split hairs but I believe it was actually Eru Himself who destroyed the Great Armament, not Manwë. The Valar laid down their guardianship of the world temporarily so that Eru could intervene.
I agree though that it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine the Balrog of Moria being capable of destroying the Dwarves in numbers to an extent. My reading of Professor Tolkien's work has always suggested to me that the confrontations involving powerful beings tend to involve some element of spiritual potency, the "might" of a creature which involves more than physical strength or skill. Despite all their crafts and such lore as they possessed, the Dwarves have always appeared to me to largely be beings who were not especially mighty in this regard, at least compared to those who were especially potent among the Ainur, the Noldor and the Edain (and Dúnedain). Consider some of the memorable heroics of Elves and Men mentioned in this discussion compared to some of the great feats of Dwarven heroes: Azaghâl wounding Glauring or Dáin Ironfoot slaying Azog. These are impressive deeds in their own way, no doubt, but not necessarily on the same level as, say, Ecthelion of the Fountain against Gothmog or Turambar against Glaurung. I don't mean to suggest that the Dwarves were inferior as soldiers compared to Elves and Men in general - it appears that they were among the more formidable forces in military terms - but that they lacked the supremely heroic individuals of other races.
That being said, given that Durin's Folk had sufficient numbers to colonise other regions after the abandonment of Moria it would suggest to me that it was not so much a matter of Durin's Bane wiping out enormous armies as it was killing those forces sent against it (including two kings) in such a way that the survivors could see that trying to withstand it was futile and that they would eventually all have been killed had they stayed. The situation would suggest to me that the Balrog could probably chew through such opposition as was deployed against it by the Dwarves; a mighty hero could have opposed it as in the Elder Days (and eventually did in the shape of Gandalf) but the Dwarves themselves lacked the means to handle it.
I don't really see the Balrog wiping out armies of thousands of Dwarves single-handedly either but the examples of the First Age would suggest to me that such beings were generally at risk mostly from individuals of relatively comparable power and perhaps were not to be worn down by numbers alone.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Sorry to split hairs but I believe it was actually Eru Himself who destroyed the Great Armament, not Manwë. The Valar laid down their guardianship of the world temporarily so that Eru could intervene.
I agree though that it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine the Balrog of Moria being capable of destroying the Dwarves in numbers to an extent. My reading of Professor Tolkien's work has always suggested to me that the confrontations involving powerful beings tend to involve some element of spiritual potency, the "might" of a creature which involves more than physical strength or skill. Despite all their crafts and such lore as they possessed, the Dwarves have always appeared to me to largely be beings who were not especially mighty in this regard, at least compared to those who were especially potent among the Ainur, the Noldor and the Edain (and Dúnedain). Consider some of the memorable heroics of Elves and Men mentioned in this discussion compared to some of the great feats of Dwarven heroes: Azaghâl wounding Glauring or Dáin Ironfoot slaying Azog. These are impressive deeds in their own way, no doubt, but not necessarily on the same level as, say, Ecthelion of the Fountain against Gothmog or Turambar against Glaurung. I don't mean to suggest that the Dwarves were inferior as soldiers compared to Elves and Men in general - it appears that they were among the more formidable forces in military terms - but that they lacked the supremely heroic individuals of other races.
That being said, given that Durin's Folk had sufficient numbers to colonise other regions after the abandonment of Moria it would suggest to me that it was not so much a matter of Durin's Bane wiping out enormous armies as it was killing those forces sent against it (including two kings) in such a way that the survivors could see that trying to withstand it was futile and that they would eventually all have been killed had they stayed. The situation would suggest to me that the Balrog could probably chew through such opposition as was deployed against it by the Dwarves; a mighty hero could have opposed it as in the Elder Days (and eventually did in the shape of Gandalf) but the Dwarves themselves lacked the means to handle it.
I don't really see the Balrog wiping out armies of thousands of Dwarves single-handedly either but the examples of the First Age would suggest to me that such beings were generally at risk mostly from individuals of relatively comparable power and perhaps were not to be worn down by numbers alone.

One point I've not seen raised in this thread is this: If balrogs were indeed capable of wiping out whole dwarven armies single handedly, why then did the balrog of Moria not intervene and hand an easy victory to his orc minions over the dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (a.k.a. Dimrill Dale)? Certainly he was lurking within Moria and well aware of what was happening outside - Dain saw it after slaying Azog just inside Moria's East Gate. I suspect that, while very powerful, the balrog was, ultimately, incarnate and could be slain, especially against a large, organized army. He was not by any means invinceable.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Elemmakil

One point I've not seen raised in this thread is this: If balrogs were indeed capable of wiping out whole dwarven armies single handedly, why then did the balrog of Moria not intervene and hand an easy victory to his orc minions over the dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (a.k.a. Dimrill Dale)? Certainly he was lurking within Moria and well aware of what was happening outside - Dain saw it after slaying Azog just inside Moria's East Gate. I suspect that, while very powerful, the balrog was, ultimately, incarnate and could be slain, especially against a large, organized army. He was not by any means invinceable.

Yet Dáin claimed that "The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." I don't doubt that the Balrog was an incarnate being which could be slain (indeed clearly it was: Gandalf killed it), but apparently the Dwarves lacked the means to defeat it. If I was to suggest why it didn't aid the Orcs in the Battle of Azanulbizar my main suspicion would be that it simply didn't care about the outcome of the battle. I don't believe that the Orcs of Moria were the minions of the Balrog, they just happened to share Moria with it. Azog claimed to be king and master of Moria and made no mention of the Balrog. If the Orcs of the Mountains owed allegiance to anyone beyond their own rulers it was Sauron alone: "in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them." (Morgoth's Ring) I would theorise that the Balrog never intervened in the battle because it didn't care about the outcome, having no stake in Azog's victory and knowing that the Dwarves could not defeat it. Evidently Balrogs could be killed, but the evidence would suggest it could only be slain by an opponent of comparable power which the Dwarves lacked. The most puzzling thing about Durin's Bane is probably why it was content to remain in Moria in any event.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yet Dáin claimed that "The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." I don't doubt that the Balrog was an incarnate being which could be slain (indeed clearly it was: Gandalf killed it), but apparently the Dwarves lacked the means to defeat it. If I was to suggest why it didn't aid the Orcs in the Battle of Azanulbizar my main suspicion would be that it simply didn't care about the outcome of the battle. I don't believe that the Orcs of Moria were the minions of the Balrog, they just happened to share Moria with it. Azog claimed to be king and master of Moria and made no mention of the Balrog. If the Orcs of the Mountains owed allegiance to anyone beyond their own rulers it was Sauron alone: "in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them." (Morgoth's Ring) I would theorise that the Balrog never intervened in the battle because it didn't care about the outcome, having no stake in Azog's victory and knowing that the Dwarves could not defeat it. Evidently Balrogs could be killed, but the evidence would suggest it could only be slain by an opponent of comparable power which the Dwarves lacked. The most puzzling thing about Durin's Bane is probably why it was content to remain in Moria in any event.

Well reasoned, but I still disagree. It goes too far to say he had no stake - if that were so I doubt he would have bothered to venture from the depths of Moria to observe the outcome. I think he would have preferred an orcish victory, but was unwilling to take the personal risk to sway the outcome.

If it were truly NO risk to him (it?) then there is no reason not to intervene and crush the dwarves altogether. But going out into the open against an army, as opposed to hit and run attacks in narrow, labyrinth tunnels deep under the earth where he has the advantage? No. And I think it because he CAN be slain, coupled with a certain degree of cowardice such as Morgoth displayed for the same reason, that the balrog was unwilling to take the risk. We can debate the degree of risk that he would have undertaken, but I guarentee that it was not zero.

Look at it this way - Fingolfin had a theoretical chance of slaying Morgoth (granted, with the Oath of Feanor it was actually zero). But without that restriction of fate, Fingolfin technically had the power and ability to kill Morgoth - if not, then why was Morgoth at all afraid? Obviously, because he was incarnate and there was a chance, however small, that he could be slain. It may have been a very low order of probability indeed, but it was not zero.

So wratcheting down a bit from Valar vs. Firstborn Child of Eru to Maiar vs. Lesser Children of Eru, I do not at all think it impossible that a mere man or dwarf could slay a balrog - just not very likely! But in the case of a field army vs. Balrog, well... that's a horse of a different colour. I think then the risk would have been too great. Better to cower in Moria then take that chance...

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Come now, it's not a matter of weaponry. Tulkas fights bare handed and is the mightiest, physically speaking, of the Valar. Look at how Manwe dispatches the mightiest army to ever walk the earth: the host of Ar-Pharazon. These are matters of sheer self-possessed power.

I did not mean literally a question of physical weapons, but having the right skill set to defeat certain opponents.

Manwe did not deal with Ar-pharazon the Golden, Eru did.

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

How is Glorfindel a matter of speculation? He is Balrog killer returned and greatly enhanced in power. What suggest tht Eladan and Elrohir have a standing closer to the Dunedain? Legolas states the opposite of what you claim and compares them to Elf Lords rather than the Dunedain.

As for Glaurung, of course they are potent, but their inate power is naturally less than that of a Maia, being secondary products of Morgoth's breeding program.

I think it is likely that Glaurung was a maiar and just because they generally Maiar were greater in might that other equal beings; this does not mean it was always the case. Luthien was more powerful than many maiar.

As for Aragorn and Boromir, one might construe that Boromir was too ignorant to be afraid, and Aragorn is far far from an ordinary man. Aragorn and a small band of men turn the tide of the Battle of the Pelenor fields. (As opposed to the hoardes of the dead as per PJ's version).

Depends on what you call a small band. He certainly had numbers in the hundreds when he arrived. Ignorance would not save Boromir from the metaphysical power of the Balrog, it was his courage that drove him om.

Both Gil-Galad (vastly inately powerful) and Elendil (not exactly an ordinary man) are defeated utterly by Sauron, but deal him sufficiently stunning a blow (series of blows) to incapacitate him so that Isildur can take advantage of the situation and cut the ring from his hand. I don't think that their are smiths equal to Telchar left in the world by the third age!

Tolkien uses the word 'overthrew' this suggest more than they just stunned him. It suggest they actually killed his physical body.

There does not have to be a smith equal to Telchar for his weapons to still be around and used by the dwarves of Durin's house.

Thousands of orcs? The troll guard certainly, but Gothmog didn't struggle in the end. Hardly comparable to Feanor who held off (all perhaps) of the Balrogs for a time, but fell in the end. As for Glaurung, the difference is that he died from a single stab wound (from an outstanding sword no doubt), whereas Feanor dealt Gothmog many a blow and yet the chief of the Balrogs was not imperilled.

In some versions it was a thousand orcs Hurin killed, in others seventy trolls. Why would Gothmog struggle when his opponent was restrained?

Feanor was not alone and where do you read he delt Gothmog any blow? He fought them and was eventually killed by Gothmog.

How is dying from a single stab wound reason to doubt his power? He was stabbed with a great sword right up to the hilt. I think a similar blow would kill Gothmog too.

In my opinion, certainly not. Dragons are bred creatures. Gothmog and Sauron would not have long stayed at the head of the armies of Morgoth if their physical power could be contested. Sorcerously speaking a dragon (no dragon ever) could match a Balrog: an eternal spirit of fire. There's no need for a fist-fight, the Balrog is the natural master.

As said before Glaurung was probably a maiar or at the very least a highly raised animal like Huan. We have already seen how Sauron fared when faced with such creatures. Well that goes against what we see. Glaurung leads a train of Balrogs. Glaurung is sent to destroy Turin rather Gothmog. Even Melain a very, powerful Maia admits that she does not have the power to match Glaurung and claims there is nobody on ME who does. I think she would have an informed opinion.

Combat with a Balrog is about far more than sheer physicality. Glaurung easily masters the mind of the Children of Hurin, I don't doubt a Balrog would achieve the same feat. The Eldar have a natural resistance, and deep deep lore, and yet even the mightiest fall before the Balrogs; only claiming victory with their own deaths.

Mastering the House of Hurin is no easy task. Morgoth himself failed when he tried to do so with Hurin. Nor did Gothmog managed to hold complete sway over Turin, but had to send him on a fools errand. That said Glaurung was a greater power than Gothmog, greater than even Melian.

Which gives you an idea of the power required to combat a Balrog. Feanor is the mightiest child of Illuvatar, and he could hold off a host of Balrogs. Fingon can manage two. (Let's not assume the Balrogs became stupid around Feanor and only attacked from the front.) Gothmog has no need to face Feanor, he is a General at the time. As for Narsil, it requires Elven smiths to reforge the blade, the lore of Telchar is long lost to the Dwarves.

The Feanor quote is an old one and I think it is safe to say Luthien was more powerful than him by the end of the Legendarium. She put the entirety of Angband to sleep.


There were never more than say 5 or so Balrogs. Feanor was not alone when he was fighting them. He had his personal guard around him and they would have gladly given their lives to save his.

Gloin says that the dwarves lost their skill to make weapons of old after the fall of Moria and Erebor. I am not even sure Narsil required elvish smiths to reforge it, but it was just the best choice logistically with Aragorn currently being at Rivendell.

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him"

Glorfindel is all speculation tbh, and indeed appears to be retcon'ing on the part of Tolkien.

As for Gandalf he is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power, and he still has to die to defeat the Balrog. None of the wise would have willingly picked that fight needlessly.

Tolkien was constantly altering and rewriting his Legendarium. Glorfindel was the one and the same as the Balrog killer of Gondolin.

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How is Glorfindel a matter of speculation? He is Balrog killer returned and greatly enhanced in power. What suggest tht Eladan and Elrohir have a standing closer to the Dunedain? Legolas states the opposite of what you claim and compares them to Elf Lords rather than the Dunedain.

Glorfindel I certainly agree, but Elladan and Elrohir were born in the 3rd Age. They were premier orc slayers, and travelled often with the Dunedain, they also tended to the habit of travelling to certain areas and teaching people how to best kill orcs, but as far as having the power to kill a Balrog...I'd say no.

I think it is likely that Glaurung was a maiar and just because they generally Maiar were greater in might that other equal beings; this does not mean it was always the case. Luthien was more powerful than many maiar.

I don't think there is anything to suggest Glaurung was a maia. He was raised in Angband, not a maia who decided to become incarnate in a dragon-form:

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons,...~Of the Return of the Noldor

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Glorfindel I certainly agree, but Elladan and Elrohir were born in the 3rd Age. They were premier orc slayers, and travelled often with the Dunedain, they also tended to the habit of travelling to certain areas and teaching people how to best kill orcs, but as far as having the power to kill a Balrog...I'd say no.

It is a matter of opinion but they are the sons of Elrond and the grandsons of Galadriel. Legolas seems to look up to them and the rejection version Eorl's charge has them as great powers.

I don't think there is anything to suggest Glaurung was a maia. He was raised in Angband, not a maia who decided to become incarnate in a dragon-form:

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

No, but Tolkien does discuss whether Huan and the Eagles were Maiar. He ultimately rejects this idea, because he does not feel that a Maiar would be gifted to an elf by Orome or mate with base beats.

However, debased and evil spirits/ainur like Ungoliant did and possible some of the great orcs too.

Children of Hurin

His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.

Melian speaking to Mablung about his encounter with Glaurung.

'By ill chance you were matched with a power too great for you, too great indeed for now all that dwell in Middle Earth.'

Glaurung was a greater power than Melian.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's possible he had a particularly fell and powerful spirit, like Sauron who housed evil spirits into wolf bodies. Yet, "fell spirit" doesn't mean maiar.

Glaurung seems to have been a body containing some measure of Morgoth's own spiritual essence.

And there right before [Nienor] was the great head of Glaurung who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes looked in his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.

UT Narn I Hîn Húrin

I think Glaurung himself, as the "father" of dragons, was primarily an extension of Morgoth's will. Later dragons that were bred (by unknown means) were, I think, more independent.

x/d with Cellurdur

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Manwe did not deal with Ar-pharazon the Golden, Eru did.

Fair point.

As for Glorfindel the enhanced, we know very little about the extent of his puissance post-return. Would he stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the great of the first-age? Surely. Yet none of those managed to defeat a Balrog without, themselves, dying.

With regards to Glaurung, and Melian's quote for example, do you suppose she included Morgoth in that estimation, or Sauron? I suspect she was meaning amongst those who might be expected to combat him. Melian's own power does not lie in combat, but rather preservation. Nonetheless the death of Glaurung does not claim that of his slayer (no matter how he died.)

As for Aragorn and Boromir. Well in terms of the thousands on the battle-field, Aragorn was bringing a tiny force. The Eorlingas were facing certain defeat, and yet Aragorn and a relatively very small force, totally reverse the situation.

As for Boromir, I would argue that he simply wasn't possessed of elder blood strong enough to be receptive to an ancient power such as the balrog.

As for the death of Sauron, though ultimately not in the final publicaiton Isildur was quote saying, "Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?" I suspect removed as it would render Isildur in a very petty light.

We know much lore is lost to the Dwarves by this time: they didn't know what a Balrog was for example :P Further Telchar was the greatest smith ever, and even then not the ultimate equal of say Feanor. He is a producer of masterworks. Not all dwarf smiths are even close to his equal.

Hurin and Feanor? Feanor outdistanced most of his army and his sons and had 'few' about him (no cadre of bodyguards - you don't think his sons would have kept up if it was easy for bodyguards?) Feanor was essentially combatting a host of Balrogs single handed.

Hurin, Gothmog put in the effort he had to, no more no less. The Balrogs felt it essential to come against Feanor personally, Hurin - not so much.


It's possible a similar wound from a similar blade would have killed Gothmog, and yet his ultimate death required Ecthelion to die himself, both arms broken, causing Gothmog the double-threat of impaling and drowning. I suspect water to a fire spirit might have been the more fel wound.

What makes you think Melian is so puissant? Why would she have extensive combat powers?

Further not all Balrogs are equal I imagine BUT I go to your own assertion of having the right 'skill set.' Glaurung was bred to be the ideal weapon of Morgoth against the free-peoples of Middle-Earth. There is no implication for example that Balrogs are generally capable of much in the way of speech or cunning thought etc. They are pretty brute-like a great deal of the time. Gothmog didn't exactly do a superb job leading armies now did he? Thus Glaurung was needed.

All the same Turin was easily fooled by the arts of Glaurung, and his sister utterly swayed. As for Hurin, Morgoth wanted him to suffer, or willingly turn.

I doubt that Luthien would have been making any Silmarils in her spare time. Further when she died she didn't do a 'Yoda.'

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

They didn't exactly do a great job with Sauron from all accounts. I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

The reason may be that a Balrog can one day leave Moria. While Sauron was absent, the Balrog had a potency to become a new Dark Lord. With Sauron back, both perspectives of Sauron subduing the Balrog or the Balrog obtaining The Ring were equally perilous.

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

Aye. The peer review process can be harsh.

[Ulvenok]

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai. But her spirit is so potent that she would be able to defeat one in some way. Same goes for Frodo and Sam in my opinion, they made it all to mount doom. Something even the strongest warrior would be unable to do. Didn't they say at the council of elrond that even Glorfindel would be unable to walk into mordor, yet Frodo and Sam did and defeated many mighty foes on there way there like Shelob for example.

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

Well, as Melkor's demons of battle these fallen Maiar were probably unmatched fighters in ME and even Sauron would have experienced a life threat fighting one of them in one-to-one combat (as it would've been the case if they would have led hosts of comparable size and skill against each other). I am sure any dragon would have quite a problem facing Balrog and vice versa. The size of the natural body in this case is not as important as wielding appropriate weapons. Dragons were individual fighters but possessed mighty weapons of distant fight and mass destruction. However, Balrogs were able to control fire in some way and I have little idea who would prevail if a Balrog had had to encounter a fire drake. As for cold drakes, that's again a very difficult question of a different kind. We simply have no instances of such situations...

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai.

Galadriel is 6'4 tall, and I quote, "a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."

Galadriel would barely notice any orc, whilst she was pulling its head off for fun. Galadriel is the scariest elf left in Middle Earth, bar none, and that includes Glorfindel.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The reason may be that a Balrog can one day leave Moria. While Sauron was absent, the Balrog had a potency to become a new Dark Lord. With Sauron back, both perspectives of Sauron subduing the Balrog or the Balrog obtaining The Ring were equally perilous.

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

I still don't like the idea of the dwarves seing the balrog but the word not getting around...

1: It would be an extremely hot topic to talk about - all the surviving dwarves would have spread the story and it would just get so big people would know it. A balrog mowing down 20 000 dwarves - this MUST become a common legend.

Thus is makes more sense to me they didnt see it, since there's no legend.

The legend we have that something powerfull of an unspecified nature drove off the dwarves fits the Alien-scenario perfectly.

2: I also imagine the dwarves would want to seek help to drive it off and to get Moria back, much as Thorin did with the lonely mountain,

I don't like the current version where they just gave up Moria and shrugged it off.

It would be an obvious course to go to the Wise with a description of it and ask them for advice on how to kill it - and I think someone did it at some point.

In the version where they got mowed down by the balrog attacking them head on the Wise would recognize the balrog (or a high probability it was a balrog) - and they would have done something. They would AT LEAST least have told Gandalf about it, Aragorn also probably - and most likely they would have DONE something, Maybe not go and kill it as was discussed in the thread since it seemed hapoy to stay put in Moria anyway. But at least they would have kept a watch on it to make sure it stayed put, maybe seal or Moria - that sort of thing. It would be on Elrond's radar. It's a very very big threat so I don't think either they would just shrug it off and think never mind.

In the "alien" version they have nothing better to ask for than help with an "unknown monster" - it makes sense for me that the Wise would not consider it "their board" - the "unknown monster" is not important for general ME security so the dwarves would be sent away empty-handed with no help forthcoming

And this leads nicely to the storyline with everyone knowing theres probably "something" big and bad in Moria that killed a whole lot of dwarves on it's own - but noone is motivated to go and kill it.

[tom the eldest]

200.000 dwarves?really?i thought the dwarves has much smaller population.if they did have a population that big however,the soldiers probably only one fourth of the number.the mean around 50.000.and that was too big even for a blarog.i think that the balrog ambush the dwarves,and when there number are low enough,he quickly make an assault on the main halls,defeating the remaining soldiers.as for the dwarves dont recognize the balrog,it must have been using its shapeshofting abilities,like turning into just a shadowy figures or something else.