Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Though it does not do the same to Boromir and Aragorn, both who were ready to fight it.

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

Boromir is a warrior, in every meaning of the word, including having an excessive pride by not knowing when he's overmatched by an opponent. Boromir was one of the few who did not flee from the Nazgul, when Sauron launched a diversionary attack on Osgiliath to get the Nazgul across the Anduin and hunt for the Ring. Boromir also blasted his horn to challenge the Balrog in Moria. His death is purely a warrior's death, because simply put, Boromir did not flee from battles (except in this case when Gandalf refused to let Aragorn and Boromir aid him, for as Lal brings up Gandalf's statement).

The Balrogs are strong, but you are greatly overrating their physical power. I would imagine many of the men of the first age would be able to match one including Turin, Beren, Hurin, Galdor and others. Then so would many of the kings of Numenor and obviosuly Elendil.

It might be worth pointing out here, we know practically the Nazgul's only weapon was fear. They had no great physical strength over the fearless (Letter 210). Balrogs, on the other hand, could instill fear as a weapon, but it was by no means their primary weapon. They were combatants, skilled in the use of a variety of weapons (swords, whips, axes, hand-to-hand fighting). They typically sought confrontation with the greatest opponent. They were definitely dishonourable in fighting (but dragons weren't?), but this doesn't mean they were not front-line commanders who also sought battle.

How are Balrogs not sneaky? They double teamed and killed Fingon from behind, as I said before Gothmog did not want to face Hurin. Why would the dwarvish weapons be useless? Especially when swords like Narsil can do them so much hurt.

They do fight dishonourably, without a question, but Gothmog was engaged in combat with Fingon for quite a while, before he had another Balrog intervene. No one can definitively say whether Gothmog was afraid of losing or just really intent upon winning (thus resort to dirty tactics and end it).

There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it.

Don't downplay Gandalf here. The way the battle unfolds is one of my favorite pieces of writing in LOTR.

Gandalf tries to put a shutting spell on the door, Durin's Bane counters and Gandalf has to quickly speak a 'Word of Command' to try to shut the door. Durin's Bane responds with such a terrible counter spell, the door explodes and Gandalf says it nearly "breaks him"

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf breaks the bridge, Durin's Bane drags him down and when they do reach a bottom "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him." Both at this point, from either the fall or the blows (Gandalf also said he was burned) had sustained wounds far beyond what a Man could endure. The fight continues on the peak until finally Gandalf slays him, but Gandalf is also killed in the process.

If a Balrog died in combat, not one instance did the Balrog not kill its assailant. I don't say this to mean in a hypothetical situation, under no circumstances could someone kill a Balrog and then walk away from it. But gathering the battles we do know, probability and odds all point to, if someone is powerful enough to slay a Balrog, that person would be killed as well.

They were dishonourable and no doubt resorted to dirty tactics when they wanted, but this does not change the fact they were skilled fighters, skilled to use a variety of weapons, and possessed not only great spiritual power, but physical power.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

I realise that, but it shows that it was possible overcome the fear. Boromir managed to do it with just pride alone.

Boromir is a warrior, in every meaning of the word, including having an excessive pride by not knowing when he's overmatched by an opponent. Boromir was one of the few who did not flee from the Nazgul, when Sauron launched a diversionary attack on Osgiliath to get the Nazgul across the Anduin and hunt for the Ring. Boromir also blasted his horn to challenge the Balrog in Moria. His death is purely a warrior's death, because simply put, Boromir did not flee from battles (except in this case when Gandalf refused to let Aragorn and Boromir aid him, for as Lal brings up Gandalf's statement).

Yes Boromir for all his faults was a true warrior and that's why his father loved him best. I dare say if there was a vote for the best man in ME, prior to the War of the Ring, Boromir would have easily won the populace vote.

It might be worth pointing out here, we know practically the Nazgul's only weapon was fear. They had no great physical strength over the fearless (Letter 210). Balrogs, on the other hand, could instill fear as a weapon, but it was by no means their primary weapon. They were combatants, skilled in the use of a variety of weapons (swords, whips, axes, hand-to-hand fighting). They typically sought confrontation with the greatest opponent. They were definitely dishonourable in fighting (but dragons weren't?), but this doesn't mean they were not front-line commanders who also sought battle.

No I agree that Balrogs were great powers physically, but was pointing out that there greater power was the power of the spirit. Even Glaurung was more powerful spiritually than physically.

As for dragons, no doubt they were dishonourable, but was just pointing out how Balrogs were too. I was dispelling the idea, that a Balrog would not be content to sneak around Moria.

They do fight dishonourably, without a question, but Gothmog was engaged in combat with Fingon for quite a while, before he had another Balrog intervene. No one can definitively say whether Gothmog was afraid of losing or just really intent upon winning (thus resort to dirty tactics and end it).

It's true, but this kind of helps illustrate the point about Balrogs and dragons. Fingon fought a famous duel face to face with Gothmog. When Glaurung was still young it took Fingon leading 200 elves to drive him off.

Don't downplay Gandalf here. The way the battle unfolds is one of my favorite pieces of writing in LOTR.

Gandalf tries to put a shutting spell on the door, Durin's Bane counters and Gandalf has to quickly speak a 'Word of Command' to try to shut the door. Durin's Bane responds with such a terrible counter spell, the door explodes and Gandalf says it nearly "breaks him"

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf breaks the bridge, Durin's Bane drags him down and when they do reach a bottom "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him." Both at this point, from either the fall or the blows (Gandalf also said he was burned) had sustained wounds far beyond what a human body could endure. The fight continues on the peaks until finally Gandalf slays it, but Gandalf is also killed in the process.

If a Balrog died in combat, no one instance did the Balrog not kill its assailant. I don't say this to mean in a hypothetical situation, under no circumstances could someone kill a Balrog and then walk away from it. But gathering the battles we do know, probability and odds all point to, if someone is powerful enough to slay a Balrog, that person would be killed as well.

They were dishonourable and no doubt resorted to dirty tactics when they wanted, but this does not change the fact they were skilled fighters, skilled to use a variety of weapons, and possessed not only great spiritual power, but physical power.

I would not try and downplay Gandalf, but rather if Gandalf was enough then think about if Saruman, Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and Celeborn were all there too. I agree with you too Gandalf's sacrifice was brilliantly written.

I am not sure about your last assessment that if someone was powerful enough to slay a Balrog they would not walk away from it. Balrogs, maybe as many as 4, were slain against the host of Valinor. Feanor himself was putting up a fight against most of the Balrogs together. I would be hesitant to suggest either he would not win one one.

That being said the Balrog was a great and powerful terror. However, to suggest he could take on thousands of Dwarves at once is too much for me. That apart there would at least be a few survivors, who would have spread the word if he had fought them all at once.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn is ignorant of the nature and history of Balrogs, his reaction to stand with Gandalf was because the sense to not let Gandalf "stand alone" was greater than any fear he might have felt.

I still have this niggling feeling that Aragorn knew what was in there while Gandalf did not, given his words to him before they decide to go through Moria.

Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge."

Gandalf is possibly the only person in Middle-earth with enough power to hope to battle this Balrog. He has been sent there by the Valar and he carries their blessing. I also suspect that he may be the only one of all the Istari to be capable of this - note that he specifies 'fire' here and we know he uses fire and light (and Light) on many occasions. He is also known to arrive with the dawn, as at Helm's Deep and Anor is the Sun. A perfect opposition to creatures such as Balrogs who are part darkness (or Unlight).

Galadriel apart (Glorfindel is a matter of huge speculation), none of the others are considered particularly puissant in matters of conflict. Gandalf is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power. Eladan and Elrohir whilst of note, have a standing closer to a Dunedain than say Echthelion.

Galadriel should be possessed of power to deal with the Balrog, and I don't see how she could not know it was there, not far from her borders, however the crucial point I think in why Gandalf is particularly able to handle it is that he has the blessing of the Valar. Galdriel does not. She is still at that point somewhat under a cloud.

Tolkien was constantly altering and rewriting his Legendarium. Glorfindel was the one and the same as the Balrog killer of Gondolin.

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

Glorfindel is another possible suitable opponent, yes. However again, I think that what he does not possess is the blessing of the Valar.

As to why the White Council did not deal with the Balrog, it's a moot point as to whether they knew it was there. There was something that had scared the Dwarves away, but who would be willing to find out? And even if they knew, it was likely that they chose to leave it well alone - it had frightened the Dwarves out of one of their strongholds and what is that in comparison to the threat that Sauron had faced and would face to all of Middle-earth?

[Rhod the Red]

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

Saruman's clearly someone whom likes the comfort of Rivendell, Minas Tirith and then Orthanc and Radagast is going native west of Mirkwood so Gandalf is the logical choice to go investigate.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I still have this niggling feeling that Aragorn knew what was in there while Gandalf did not, given his words to him before they decide to go through Moria.

I don't think so; Aragorn's warning seems to me to be based upon a combination of his own previous experience passing through Moria and a sense of precognitive foreboding about Gandalf's fate. When the Company is debating Aragorn says:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

I believe Aragorn sensed the Balrog without knowing what it was. If he had an idea of its true nature, surely he would have mentioned it to Gandalf privately, especially considering that they had already discussed the possibility of taking the Moria route.

That may beg the question of why Gandalf did not sense the Balrog on his prior journey there. My theory might be that it felt the presence of Gandalf first, and did not desire a confrontation then. Perhaps it was the power of the Ring that called to the Balrog (and maybe too the Watcher in the water) when the Fellowship passed through, whereas Aragorn and Gandalf were unmolested when they went in alone.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As to why the White Council did not deal with the Balrog, it's a moot point as to whether they knew it was there. There was something that had scared the Dwarves away, but who would be willing to find out? And even if they knew, it was likely that they chose to leave it well alone - it had frightened the Dwarves out of one of their strongholds and what is that in comparison to the threat that Sauron had faced and would face to all of Middle-earth?

Indeed. The primary focus of the Istari was Sauron, and those who directly aided him. Whatever the evil in Moria was, it wasn't likely to be much concern if it wasn't seen as a ally of Sauron's, actively or potentially. After all, in UT Gandalf tells the hobbits in Minas Tirith that he was only minding the Smaug affair because he feared Sauron might use Smaug in his war effort.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

Saruman's clearly someone whom likes the comfort of Rivendell, Minas Tirith and then Orthanc and Radagast is going native west of Mirkwood so Gandalf is the logical choice to go investigate.

No, Gandalf tells the Fellowship he entered Moria to look for Thorin's father Thráin.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

If I recall precisely, we have to specification of the reason Gandalf first visited Moria. So maybe he was sent by Saruman, or the White Council as a whole, to investigate that very matter.

The first time Gandalf went to Moria he was looking for Thráin: "Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost." (The Fellowship of the Ring p.289)
I've always found this a very curious point, because I always got the impression that Gandalf had stumbled upon Thráin quite by accident in Dol Guldur and that given that he was only able to reason out the Dwarf's identity much later (Thráin couldn't remember his own name) it seems odd that Gandalf had actually gone searching for him. That being said, perhaps in his efforts to see if Smaug could be dealt with he did at some point deliberately seek Thráin - just in the wrong place.
In this way it would appear that Gandalf's presence there wasn't enough to stir the Balrog; he learned nothing of it on his first journey - could the Ring have been involved? Presumably Gandalf's power was more "veiled" on his first visit. It was when the Fellowship passed through that the Balrog appeared; I wonder if it had more to do with the Ring or with Gandalf using his power a bit more liberally on the second occasion.
I get the impression that since Durin's Bane seemed content to lurk in Moria - and because no one seemingly knew what a truly terrible being it was - people like the White Council never risked action against it.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The first time Gandalf went to Moria he was looking for Thráin... it seems odd that Gandalf had actually gone searching for him. That being said, perhaps in his efforts to see if Smaug could be dealt with he did at some point deliberately seek Thráin - just in the wrong place.

It is quite possible; I also tend to think that Gandalf could have serious concerns about the destiny of Thrain's Ring of Power.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In this way it would appear that Gandalf's presence there wasn't enough to stir the Balrog; he learned nothing of it on his first journey - could the Ring have been involved? Presumably Gandalf's power was more "veiled" on his first visit. It was when the Fellowship passed through that the Balrog appeared; I wonder if it had more to do with the Ring or with Gandalf using his power a bit more liberally on the second occasion.

It seems to me Durin's Bane just did not want to be disturbed. Orks were not a threat for old Rog, and neither Gandalf no Aragorn managed to produce much noise on their earlier visits. This time they came in company, brought The Ring, and finally Pip threw a stone, perhaps, straight on the Poor Thing's head as it was already suggested. Then Gandalf added more when the awaken homeowner decided to check who is sneaking in his household. Well, the fight became imminent.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I get the impression that since Durin's Bane seemed content to lurk in Moria - and because no one seemingly knew what a truly terrible being it was - people like the White Council never risked action against it.

I believe this is it.