Wizard Gone Missing

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

...I do find it interesting and somehow informative (of what, I'm not sure yet) that Gandalf is an unfallen Maiar whereas Merlin is a demon-spawn: Tolkien has scrubbed his wizard clean of all the nasty origin.

I suspect that Merlin, taken as an archetype, was the victim of 'bad press'. The conquering Romans could not defeat them so they demonised them. What we have are stories told by the victors in the battle for Europe south of the Rhine.

Germania was the name given to peoples North of the Rhine, regardless of actual language or alliances. They did not call themselves Germans/Germanic.
The defining difference between Celtic (aka Keltoi, or Gaulish, Galician, Galatian...)and Germanic societies was the degree of Romanisation.
The name-calling cuts both ways. Some of those 'Germanic' peoples had names for Romanised peoples too, such as 'wealas'. This is a term that came to be associated with oath breaking (to 'welsch' on a deal) and with those tribes driven into Western Britain (Wales and Cornwealas). These people did not call themselves Welsh, we gave them that name.

It seems logical to suppose that apparent differences in their Wise men (I could say women too, but I am getting to Gandalf's roots rather than Galadriel's) were more the result of the changing agendas of their respective societies. The Romans kept meeting resistance to their rule across Europe. Someone or some group of people kept uniting forces against them on both sides of the Rhine. What better way to tackle these elusive tale-tellers and king-makers than to demonise them in new tales?

My point is that Norman tales calling Merlin "demon spawn", or your saying he has a "nasty origin", seems to me the same as calling Gandalf "Storm-crow" or "Lathspel"/"Ill-news". Ill news for who?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

Rübezahl!!! (Or, in my mothertongue, Krakonoš!!)

Never thought about that - but - now that I see it, it all makes sense! Okay, this guy is really a big thing in the Czech folklore (he is said to reside in the mountains which border Germany, and Poland, too, and obviously those two also have him in their culture, though I am not sure how strong the motive is there, but speaking from my perspective, he is really well known). It would never have occured to me to think of him as having anything to do with Gandalf (he's really a sort of mountain-spirit, which Gandalf obviously isn't), but his behavior is really of pretty much the same sort, now that I think about it.

There was a sort of TV "good-night for children" series of fairytales, made I think sometime in the 80's, which basically all the Czech children know, and there the main hero was Krakonoš - exactly this guy - and I never realised it, but now when I think about it, he had a lot of "Gandalf"-elements in him. Exactly this sort of trickster-type Gandalf, though. (The series revolved around an evil greedy duke who was exploiting his poor servants, and always did something nasty, like wanted to steal from someone or hunt some poor fluffy animals in the woods, and this Krakonoš always came and saved the day by some trick. He was sort of "deus ex machina".)

Here for example is part of one episode from the TV series where the evil duke is punished because he wanted to steal food from animals in the woods - I suggest watching something like from 4:07-4:20, where you can see Krakonoš (Rübezahl) with his typical pipe (one more Gandalfish attribute). Or here is one full episode (in Czech) where he disguises himself as an important noble guest - I suggest watching something like 7:20-7:40 to get the idea, where Krakonoš reverts back to his normal form (non-disguised). This is a very Hobbit-Gandalf-y type of thing to do, in my opinion, or something I could imagine the Gandalf from the Hobbit to do. He also scorns the duke in a rather Gandalf-y way (you can just tell from the tone of the voice). This "lightning effect" was actually sort of a signature move of his whenever he appeared or when his true nature was revealed. Gandalf Uncloaked?

(Although if you watch e.g. a bit from 1:50 on, he has much pretty strong Radagast-y or Tom Bombadil-y side, too. He also had this funny little bird to deliver messages and spy for him.)

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

The artist was a contemporary of Tolkien's, and thus it's a modern depiction. So I'd say the painting is a Romantic portrayal of a wizard. The artist happens to be Germanic but is that enough to say Gandalf is too?

This wizard's scarlet cloak is interesting. Wearing red is an ancient and widespread indication of high status, scarlet dye was particularly expensive, and there were rules about who was allowed to wear it. Whatever language he is supposed to have spoken this guy would have had similar status to a cardinal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Madlener was certainly a late-Romantic artist, but his themes, when not religious, tended to run to German folklore: the Lady of the Wood, the Vision of Hubertus (the stag with a cross between its antlers, as seen on the Jagermeister label).

He has also been called "der Maler der schwäbischen Weihnacht," the painter of Swabian Christmas, for his many Christmas-themed works.

Having grown up in Bavaria, I can verify how very much in tune with South German popular art Madlener's work was.

More here http://www.memmingen.de/76.html for those who don't mind German

---------------------
is as German as all get-out,

as is
this:




but isn't this next one as Tolkien as all get-out?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This BTW is Madlener himself:



Gandalf?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Madlener was certainly a late-Romantic artist, but his themes, when not religious, tended to run to German folklore...

Having grown up in Bavaria, I can verify how very much in tune with South German popular art Madlener's work was...

I like the Romantics, and that's probably why I like Tolkein. They laboured to revive a sense of the mysterious and noble, especially the notion of the "noble savage", in an age where xenophobia was being allied with social-Darwinism.
I also like the British Pre-Raphaelites and Art Nouveau even though they added to the trend of depicting Iron Age Celtic knights in medieval Teutonic (Germanic) armour. Historically inaccurate but giving us the popular imagery we now think of as Arthurian.
I know how keen Tolkien was on Germanic saga, but none the less, probably because of the power of Arthurian tales in British culture, I find it hard not to see Gandalf as Merlin.