First look at Evangeline Lilly in 'The Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug'

[Mithalwen]

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard. While Elf women could and did fight in defence having a woman shoehorned in as a military leader is hugely patronising as well as uncanonical. Women do not have to bear arms to equal men. And she looks dreadful.... the work of Weta and the costumes were one of the things I actively enjoyed from the first films - Evangeline Lilly, who is unquestionably a beautiful woman, looks as if she is in fancy dress for a convention with the bad henna dye job and the jokeshop ears.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I do seriously look forward to the clip from DOS with Bilbo on water-skis, jumping over a shark.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I do seriously look forward to the clip from DOS with Bilbo on water-skis, jumping over a shark.

I believe he will be jumping Sharkey, not shark. Filmed in Wetwang, of course.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And she looks dreadful.... the work of Weta and the costumes were one of the things I actively enjoyed from the first films - Evangeline Lilly, who is unquestionably a beautiful woman, looks as if she is in fancy dress for a convention with the bad henna dye job and the jokeshop ears.

No, she didn’t exactly get the most inspired character design. It honestly looks like someone just googled “Elf warrior” and based it on the first few pics that showed up.

(Or did look like that– link seems to be broken now.)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Agan

Still, PJ is going to make uncanonical changes, and although the quality of the story he tells isn't even close to Tolkien, some changes are better and some worse than others. I can't tell which Tauriel is before I've seen her, but as a rule, making an additional character woman is far from the worst thing he has done. And even if they botch her, chances are I'm still more upset about Azog and short beards.

On the whole I agree with this– however, now that we’ve seen the character, well, she does look like a distillation of every Elf-Mary Sue ever, doesn’t she?

That said, I could certainly do without this thread turning into another of those OMG a WOMAN in THE HOBBIT??? EWWW!!! GIRLGERMS!!!111!!!! affairs.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Incidentally, is there a particular reason, do you think, that Tolkien never (to the best of my knowledge) suggests "half-Dwarves" or any interbreeding of that kind?

I agree on your interpretation about their alien nature (alien also being the word Tolkien uses of dwarves in relation to everybody else), starting from the fact that Aulë is supposed to gather their fëar in a special place, separate from the children of Ilúvatar.

I don't remember any particular passage that states definitively that procreation between Men and Dwarves doesn't exist, but the absolute lack of any speculation about it implies heavily that this is the case. Cultural isolation and differences aside, I'm not sure it would even be biologically possible.

I've also heard rumours about

• Tauriel and Legolas having something going on
• Tauriel having a crush on Thranduil
• Tauriel saving the dwarves from Thranduil's dungeon

No idea how reliable these are, but cheer up - they all can't be true!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, Tolkien was able to present us with strong, memorable female characters like Morwen, Éowyn, and of course Galadriel, without coming near Hollywood-type clichés. Can PJ pull that off? Not if the past is any indication...

Tolkien was also able to present us with strong, memorable male characters, but could PJ pull it off? Not half as well as Tolkien.

Still, PJ is going to make uncanonical changes, and although the quality of the story he tells isn't even close to Tolkien, some changes are better and some worse than others. I can't tell which Tauriel is before I've seen her, but as a rule, making an additional character woman is far from the worst thing he has done. And even if they botch her, chances are I'm still more upset about Azog and short beards.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The interesting point about the Bechdal test is that it is not based on personal preference or opinion. It examines how characters relate to each other in specific terms, the topic of their conversations.

Yes - and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are. Try to think of a popular book/film that does NOT have two male characters, who talk to each other, about something besides a woman.

Took you long, didn't it?

Melian is more consistent and I like her trait of singing but even there I am bothered by the concept of her "girdle"

I'm bothered by her taste in men.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While Elf women could and did fight in defence having a woman shoehorned in as a military leader is hugely patronising as well as uncanonical. Women do not have to bear arms to equal men.

I understand it in an adventure film where bearing arms is what all the protagonists do. She'd hardly be 'equal' to the adventurers, or a relevant part of their story, if she didn't do the same.

You're right about Weta doing a better job with the first trilogy. How many of you have seen Disney sequels? That's exactly what springs to mind when comparing the visual styles of the two trilogies with each other.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I've also heard rumours about

• Tauriel and Legolas having something going on
• Tauriel having a crush on Thranduil
• Tauriel saving the dwarves from Thranduil's dungeon

No idea how reliable these are, but cheer up - they all can't be true!

No idea if you meant that sarcastically or not, but I certainly think they can...

[Mithalwen]

Melian at least protects her people her selfish daughter sits in a tree until it is in her own interest to get off her backside. Her proactivity is merely to satisfy her own desires and gets Felagund killed. I despise her and we hates her forever! Precioussesss

[Mithalwen]

So straw poll...does Tauriel look more like Peter Pan, Robin Hood or....?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So straw poll...does Tauriel look more like Peter Pan, Robin Hood or....?

....this under the influence of hair-straightener?

*Only kidding, Ms. Lilly.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So straw poll...does Tauriel look more like Peter Pan, Robin Hood or....?

I'm convinced its somewhere between Peter Pan and a bad cosplay of Link, as much as I love Link costumes...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am not against feminism, but I dislike over-the-top demonstrations of the phenomenon (Agan will now for sure beat me with a banana when we meet in the indefinite future ). I easily agree with the phrase "why are women worse then men?", but have you ever thought of the opposite - "why are men worse than women?"? Male elves aren't good enough for PJ&co, it seems. Even disregarding the first point, it's one thing to plop a new female character in. It's another thing to have that character take over the job/scenes that were originally meant for male characters - characters that are no worse than hers, may I add.

My concluding thought: Either have a character who will leave the reader/viewer with a strong impression - a deep character, of any gender - or don't disgrace yourself with a shallow desperate fighter character of any gender.

Neither am I, but instead prefer to have my actions weigh more than just sitting around discussing gender obstacles. Of course, it's pretty hard to call someone out for being 'one of those darn feminists' when they're shoveling a water pipe out with you in the rain and snow. All in all, I prefer to address feminist issues in life as more of a Maege Mormont.

It's always better to have well developed characters who can stand on their own beyond more than flesh and looks, because they have personalities and character that are admirable by both men and women. The Hobbit is by far one of my favourite books, and is primarily full of a bunch of men on a long, witty and adventurous camping trip (for lack of trying to be funny about this...), with some of Tolkien's more memorable characters (Beorn has gotten better since childhood, when you can truly appreciate his blunt crankiness and sarcasm).

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard.

That was probably the most memorable scene I kept in mind while reading LOTR later on, that elves aren't always this ethereal fluff of melancholy hanging in the air of every event, scene, etc.
Really rather sad.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yes - and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are. Try to think of a popular book/film that does NOT have two male characters, who talk to each other, about something besides a woman.

Took you long, didn't it?

I doubt works such as The Mists of Avalon could even pass the Bechtel test in it's entirety. Certainly certain chapters, but not every little thing. If anything it was a Bechtel test of its own source material, thought provoking though.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Didn't Galadriel maintain her "realm" in a very similar fashion, with the power of Nenya? She seemed to have had some success. Notice in each case it is the female who ultimately defends the home, despite armed might being in the hands of the males.

The remaining exception of all of these examples, with someone taking a bit more than just a defense interest in the home would be Haleth. Probably the only figure of the feminine persuasion who isn't just 'guarding the home' for someone, or who eventually 'stops playing at war chief' and settles down.

... Though I highly doubt Tauriel is going to be as in Tolkien's words: "a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women" (The Peoples of Middle Earth). Also, if anyone remembers from the 'sneak peak' preview on The Hobbit website where of all people Stephen Colbert points out the difference between Thranduil & family from the rest of the elves in his society, PJ makes a quip about Tauriel being among those who did not heed the call west. Apparently she's some sort of device to familiarize the audience with the stratification of elven society (aka: 'one of these elves is not like the other-').

To be honest and nothing against the wishful thinking of other female fans, I see Tauriel as a plot device to do two major things:

- Familiarize fans who may not have read too deep into the different branches of elven society (as since most highly recognizable elven characters in the film are high elves of some sort)
- Serve as a device to bust the dwarves out of prison, since apparently our merry drunken duo and most of Bilbo's crafty reconnaissance and stealth have been dropped out of the film.

It's always a good thing to remember that in homages and recreations of works where a female figure has been inserted for appeasement purposes or else, it can still be pandering and sexist (maybe even more so) than if no character had been added to the original material. Mostly because, in the often wrong hands, such a character comes off as just 'eye candy', 'comedic', 'one dimensional' and/or 'useless'. It just ends up being heaped upon the burn pile of 'ugh, not another fan-service to feminism' for those who tend to think us females rattle our sabers over nothing.