First look at Evangeline Lilly in 'The Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug'

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It would be really nice, for instance, if the added new female character passed the Bechdel test.

You know, Tolkien was able to present us with strong, memorable female characters like Morwen, Éowyn, and of course Galadriel, without coming near Hollywood-type clichés. Can PJ pull that off? Not if the past is any indication...

[Galadriel55]

Maybe I should have put this in Mirth, because it's so amusing, but it relates...

(link, in case you can't see the picture, because I can't)

Look at these adorable lovebird action figures! Now, maybe the toy makers know more details about the plot than PJ lets on?...



Now what does Tauriel do behind the scenes, we wonders...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, Tolkien was able to present us with strong, memorable female characters like Morwen, Éowyn, and of course Galadriel, without coming near Hollywood-type clichés. Can PJ pull that off? Not if the past is any indication...

I might get hounded down for this, but there is more to presenting female characters than simply being strong. It is possible that Tolkien would not pass the Bechdel test either.

Originally Posted by Bechdel test

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I might get hounded down for this, but there is more to presenting female characters than simply being strong. It is possible that Tolkien would not pass the Bechdel test either.

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR, and to me that alone sets him above PJ's observed work in the matter.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR, and to me that alone sets him above PJ's observed work in the matter.

The interesting point about the Bechdal test is that it is not based on personal preference or opinion. It examines how characters relate to each other in specific terms, the topic of their conversations.

When you say that "Tolkien hits it" I really have no idea what you mean except that you approve of or like the characters--which of course is your right. I'm not much of a fan of Galadriel because I don't like the "type" she is, the revered, distant beauty. The emphasis on physical beauty is a drawback to me, but that is my personal opinion. Her characterisation is also confused, rather than consistent, through the ages. This bugs me too.

Melian is more consistent and I like her trait of singing but even there I am bothered by the concept of her "girdle" which maintains the peace and serenity of Doriath. Again, this is my own personal grudge about the idea of a magical barrier that keeps a place safe. I don't believe that 'good' can be maintained against 'evil' that way. It's possible Tolkien didn't either because every time he uses the concept, it fails.

Now, if The Silm had given us an extended passage where the two--Galadriel and Melian--discuss the fate of the world, that would have been something which would have demonstrated their intellect and wisdom. But we don't get that. Mostly we are told of their wise decisions rather than seeing how they negotiate the correct stance. Ultimately, we get a mum who really does not defend her daughter against an overbearing and autocratic husband/father. She never challenges the patriarchy for the sake of her daughter. Again, this is my personal value rather than a guideline for discussing how characters are presented.

I will say that at least Tolkien didn't indulge in pyrotechnics with Galadriel, which a certain director did. With Gandalf, we get exposition about his attraction to the ring. With Galadriel, we get fireworks. I would much rather have seen the actress emote.

Makes me very dubious about this Tauriel. Perhaps her red hair is supposed to be a joke about all those Mary Sues?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

When you say that "Tolkien hits it" I really have no idea what you mean except that you approve of or like the characters--which of course is your right.

I meant that that scene seems to pass the Bechdal Test.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Melian is more consistent and I like her trait of singing but even there I am bothered by the concept of her "girdle" which maintains the peace and serenity of Doriath. Again, this is my own personal grudge about the idea of a magical barrier that keeps a place safe. I don't believe that 'good' can be maintained against 'evil' that way. It's possible Tolkien didn't either because every time he uses the concept, it fails.

Didn't Galadriel maintain her "realm" in a very similar fashion, with the power of Nenya? She seemed to have had some success. Notice in each case it is the female who ultimately defends the home, despite armed might being in the hands of the males.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Now, if The Silm had given us an extended passage where the two--Galadriel and Melian--discuss the fate of the world, that would have been something which would have demonstrated their intellect and wisdom. But we don't get that. Mostly we are told of their wise decisions rather than seeing how they negotiate the correct stance. Ultimately, we get a mum who really does not defend her daughter against an overbearing and autocratic husband/father. She never challenges the patriarchy for the sake of her daughter. Again, this is my personal value rather than a guideline for discussing how characters are presented.

Interesting. How would you characterize Melian's dealings with another mum, Morwen?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I will say that at least Tolkien didn't indulge in pyrotechnics with Galadriel, which a certain director did. With Gandalf, we get exposition about his attraction to the ring. With Galadriel, we get fireworks. I would much rather have seen the actress emote.

Would that be an overreaction on the part of PJ, akin to warrior-princess Arwen? As in the only way to show power in a woman is physical demonstrations?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Makes me very dubious about this Tauriel. Perhaps her red hair is supposed to be a joke about all those Mary Sues?

Is PJ really subtle enough for that to be the case?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I meant that that scene seems to pass the Bechdal Test.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR.

My bad! I misread that as a reference simply to the two characters and not to the brief descriptions of their meetings in The Silm. But let's see how the actual "scenes" do hold up.

Originally Posted by The Bechdal test

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

Originally Posted by Of the Return of the Noldar

Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.

This does not satisfy the test, to my mind, for several reasons. First of all, we do not have a real scene with conversation or dialogue between the two women. We have a report of their relationship. Thus, their relationship is filtered by the narrator. Second, the passage highlights Galadriel's reason for staying in Doriath--the great love between her and Celeborn. Nor is there much characterisation of the two women. So, nope, this episode does not pass the test.

Originally Posted by Of the Noldor in Beleriand

And at times Melian and Galadriel would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but ever fell silent. And on a time Melian said, " There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin. That I can see in you, but all else is hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea. Why will you not tell me more?"
"For that woe is past," said Galadriel; "and I would take what joy is here left, untrubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright."
Then Melian looked in her eyes, and said: "I believe not that the Noldor came forth as messengers of the Valar, as was said at first: not though they came in the very hour of our need. For they speak never of the Valar, nor have their high lords brought any message to Thingol, whether from Manwe, or Ulmo, or even from Olwe the King's brother, and his own folk went over the sea. For what cause, Galadriel, were the high people of the Noldor driven forth as exiles from Aman? Or what evil lies on the sons of Feanor that they are so haughty and so fell? Do I not strike near the truth?"
"Near," said Galadriel; "save that we were not driven forth, but came of our own will, and against that of the Valar. And through great peril and in despite of the Valar for this purpose we came to take vengeance upon Morgoth, and regain what he stole."
Then Galadriel spoke to Melian of the Silmarils, and of the slaying of King Finwe at Formenos; but still she said no word of the Oath, nor of the Kinslaying, nor of the burning of the ships at Losgar. But Melian said: "Now much you tell me, and yet more I perceive. A darkness you would cast over the long road from Tirion, but I see evil there, which Thingol should learn for his guidance."
"Maybe," said Galadriel; "but not of me."
And Melian then spoke no more of these matters with Galadriel; but she told King Thingol all that she had heard of the Silmarils.

Now this seems closer to the test! We have a bit of conversation between the women, even if it falls into report about the Silmarils. We can gather a bit more of motivation or characterisation here as well, with Galadriel's reticence to speak all and Melian's subtle prompting.

Does this present the scene I had spoken of, >>>Now, if The Silm had given us an extended passage where the two--Galadriel and Melian--discuss the fate of the world, that would have been something which would have demonstrated their intellect and wisdom. But we don't get that. Mostly we are told of their wise decisions or thought rather than seeing how they negotiate the correct stance.<<< ?

Well, yes, it does appear that Melian learns something significant from this conversation. Yet can we say that essentially Melian's role is to be almost Thingol's spy here? She reports it to Thingol, so that the entire conversation serves Thingol's needs, precedes the report of a spreading rumour about the Noldor, and in fact antagonises the King against the visiting Finrod. The events in the chapter become an explanation for the decline of one language and the supremacy of another. The women are small potatoes in that, no matter how ironic their role in the events may be.

And of these effects neither Galadriel nor Melian have any control. They are passive conveyors of details rather than characters with full agency. They are women negotiating their position within the patriarchy and as such I think that is a kind of representation. But they are still discussing men--the haughty and fell nature of the sons of Feanor and Thingol's need for guidance.

This is indeed far closer than anything in LotR or TH, but the women are still passive and inadvertent bearers of story details that really are about the men in their lives. Not quite what I had in mind, but I might be too strict in my interpretation of the Test.

Didn't Galadriel maintain her "realm" in a very similar fashion, with the power of Nenya? She seemed to have had some success. Notice in each case it is the female who ultimately defends the home, despite armed might being in the hands of the males.

Yet it is a stereotypical defense and unrelated to the Bechdal Test, which, as Agan has pointed out:

Originally Posted by Agan

and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are.

The feminist values of the representation are indeed another topic to which I must not stray, however much I dallied around them in the previous post.

Interesting. How would you characterize Melian's dealings with another mum, Morwen?

We aren't given any specific scenes of Melian's dealings with Morwen, are we? We are told that Morwen is "fey" and "distraught" and refuses the counsel of Melian but again, that is reported narrative and not an actual conversation. And it would have been about Turin anyway.; There really isn't enough material to generate any kind of generalisation about how Melian treated motherhood.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR, and to me that alone sets him above PJ's observed work in the matter.

You are right to seek in The Silm for some of Tolkien's representations of strong women; what I would have liked to have seen is Haleth leading her people in more detail, because there is a woman who is sole leader, no consort. However, we do have to remember that PJ has but LotR and TH to work with. I don't think he has access to The Silm, so that all he has to work with are the fewer representations in LotR and TH; I'm not sure how much of the Appendices he can touch at length.

Would that be an overreaction on the part of PJ, akin to warrior-princess Arwen? As in the only way to show power in a woman is physical demonstrations?

I like Agan's reply to Mithalwen about power in protagonists in an action flick. But I also think it was a mistake to change Arwen's character. Personally, I also think PJ likes to go with the big boom, as that is a large part , if not the main part, of action flicks, which are as much an influence on his film-making as Tolkien, if not more.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Is PJ really subtle enough for that to be the case?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think it's really a joke.

lol, But he does favour fairly rank forms of humour in inappropriate places.

Originally Posted by Agan

I'm bothered by her taste in men.

Oh, no question!

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard.

Now that we shall have to wait to see. Would PJ dare show a Marion Ravenwood?

And I do believe this is the longest post I've made in ever so long.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Bethbery

This is indeed far closer than anything in LotR or TH, but the women are still passive and inadvertent bearers of story details that really are about the men in their lives. Not quite what I had in mind, but I might be too strict in my interpretation of the Test.

Actually, Beth, I rather think you are a bit– or rather, perhaps, not strict enough– I doubt “talking about a man” was meant to be stretched that far. After all, it tremendously limits the topics women are “allowed” to discuss– which was surely not the original intention. (Besides, isn’t the point of the test pretty much that it *shouldn’t* be terribly hard to pass?)

On the other hand–

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I understand it in an adventure film where bearing arms is what all the protagonists do. She'd hardly be 'equal' to the adventurers, or a relevant part of their story, if she didn't do the same.

Indeed. No offence to Mith or Zil or anyone else, but I’ve often heard this “why can’t they show true, feminine strength” argument in relation to action/adventure heroines, and it sounds fine until you ask yourself what, in practical terms, the lady is then meant to *do* in the story.

See, one hears a lot about the “the need for strong female characters”, but obviously it’s a bit more complicated than that when, even in such a small group, we can’t seem to reach any real agreement about what the phrase means in the first place. (I also find it to be of some concern how restrictive the various criteria are– male characters are always given a lot more leeway.) For my part I’d be reasonably satisfied if this Tauriel’s portrayal doesn’t turn out downright embarrassing– and I think that has more to do with issues other than such relatively abstract ones. Will she get any real characterisation at all, or just be a cardboard cutout? Will she spout allegedly hilarious one-liners? Will her scenes feature endless cheesecake shots? Will we be subjected to the threatened Elf/Dwarf romance?

...Will she *really* look this silly? (“Hmmn... looks like the Costume Department's already over-budget, so we’ll just hire an elf-ranger outfit from Partyland down the road. I’m sure no-one’ll notice...")

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Makes me very dubious about this Tauriel. Perhaps her red hair is supposed to be a joke about all those Mary Sues?

I think you're right here throughout, except for one thing: I don't think it's really a joke.

[Mithalwen]

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard. While Elf women could and did fight in defence having a woman shoehorned in as a military leader is hugely patronising as well as uncanonical. Women do not have to bear arms to equal men. And she looks dreadful.... the work of Weta and the costumes were one of the things I actively enjoyed from the first films - Evangeline Lilly, who is unquestionably a beautiful woman, looks as if she is in fancy dress for a convention with the bad henna dye job and the jokeshop ears.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I do seriously look forward to the clip from DOS with Bilbo on water-skis, jumping over a shark.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Incidentally, is there a particular reason, do you think, that Tolkien never (to the best of my knowledge) suggests "half-Dwarves" or any interbreeding of that kind?

I agree on your interpretation about their alien nature (alien also being the word Tolkien uses of dwarves in relation to everybody else), starting from the fact that Aulë is supposed to gather their fëar in a special place, separate from the children of Ilúvatar.

I don't remember any particular passage that states definitively that procreation between Men and Dwarves doesn't exist, but the absolute lack of any speculation about it implies heavily that this is the case. Cultural isolation and differences aside, I'm not sure it would even be biologically possible.

I've also heard rumours about

• Tauriel and Legolas having something going on
• Tauriel having a crush on Thranduil
• Tauriel saving the dwarves from Thranduil's dungeon

No idea how reliable these are, but cheer up - they all can't be true!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, Tolkien was able to present us with strong, memorable female characters like Morwen, Éowyn, and of course Galadriel, without coming near Hollywood-type clichés. Can PJ pull that off? Not if the past is any indication...

Tolkien was also able to present us with strong, memorable male characters, but could PJ pull it off? Not half as well as Tolkien.

Still, PJ is going to make uncanonical changes, and although the quality of the story he tells isn't even close to Tolkien, some changes are better and some worse than others. I can't tell which Tauriel is before I've seen her, but as a rule, making an additional character woman is far from the worst thing he has done. And even if they botch her, chances are I'm still more upset about Azog and short beards.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The interesting point about the Bechdal test is that it is not based on personal preference or opinion. It examines how characters relate to each other in specific terms, the topic of their conversations.

Yes - and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are. Try to think of a popular book/film that does NOT have two male characters, who talk to each other, about something besides a woman.

Took you long, didn't it?

Melian is more consistent and I like her trait of singing but even there I am bothered by the concept of her "girdle"

I'm bothered by her taste in men.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While Elf women could and did fight in defence having a woman shoehorned in as a military leader is hugely patronising as well as uncanonical. Women do not have to bear arms to equal men.

I understand it in an adventure film where bearing arms is what all the protagonists do. She'd hardly be 'equal' to the adventurers, or a relevant part of their story, if she didn't do the same.

You're right about Weta doing a better job with the first trilogy. How many of you have seen Disney sequels? That's exactly what springs to mind when comparing the visual styles of the two trilogies with each other.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard.

That was probably the most memorable scene I kept in mind while reading LOTR later on, that elves aren't always this ethereal fluff of melancholy hanging in the air of every event, scene, etc.
Really rather sad.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yes - and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are. Try to think of a popular book/film that does NOT have two male characters, who talk to each other, about something besides a woman.

Took you long, didn't it?

I doubt works such as The Mists of Avalon could even pass the Bechtel test in it's entirety. Certainly certain chapters, but not every little thing. If anything it was a Bechtel test of its own source material, thought provoking though.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Didn't Galadriel maintain her "realm" in a very similar fashion, with the power of Nenya? She seemed to have had some success. Notice in each case it is the female who ultimately defends the home, despite armed might being in the hands of the males.

The remaining exception of all of these examples, with someone taking a bit more than just a defense interest in the home would be Haleth. Probably the only figure of the feminine persuasion who isn't just 'guarding the home' for someone, or who eventually 'stops playing at war chief' and settles down.

... Though I highly doubt Tauriel is going to be as in Tolkien's words: "a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women" (The Peoples of Middle Earth). Also, if anyone remembers from the 'sneak peak' preview on The Hobbit website where of all people Stephen Colbert points out the difference between Thranduil & family from the rest of the elves in his society, PJ makes a quip about Tauriel being among those who did not heed the call west. Apparently she's some sort of device to familiarize the audience with the stratification of elven society (aka: 'one of these elves is not like the other-').

To be honest and nothing against the wishful thinking of other female fans, I see Tauriel as a plot device to do two major things:

- Familiarize fans who may not have read too deep into the different branches of elven society (as since most highly recognizable elven characters in the film are high elves of some sort)
- Serve as a device to bust the dwarves out of prison, since apparently our merry drunken duo and most of Bilbo's crafty reconnaissance and stealth have been dropped out of the film.

It's always a good thing to remember that in homages and recreations of works where a female figure has been inserted for appeasement purposes or else, it can still be pandering and sexist (maybe even more so) than if no character had been added to the original material. Mostly because, in the often wrong hands, such a character comes off as just 'eye candy', 'comedic', 'one dimensional' and/or 'useless'. It just ends up being heaped upon the burn pile of 'ugh, not another fan-service to feminism' for those who tend to think us females rattle our sabers over nothing.