No Married Persons

[littlemanpoet]

It just struck me that not one of the Fellowship has a spouse. I'm purposely not addressing gender because I'm reading Justin Cronin's "The Passage" and he has the same thing: not a single spouse in his Fellowship either.

Is it because it simplifies things not to have such a connection? Or was there something within Tolkien's world that made it so? In other words, author choice for sake of ease, or author choice for plot function?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Certainly it's partially easier for the heroes not to have a spouse. It can also represent different things. It is very strongly emphasised, I think either in the Appendices or in the Quest for Erebor, that one of the reasons why Gandalf thought Bilbo might be the right person to send on adventure was because he wasn't married. Obviously Gandalf wouldn't have sent somebody away from their family, that much is clear. The companions needed to be "free of obligations" elsewhere, and not just to be chosen by Gandalf, but obviously also to be chosen by "higher powers at work" - that much is beyond doubt (I think it is very evident from Frodo's story, the description of him aging towards 50 at the beginning of FotR). Slightly different angle comes with Aragorn, who decided to "put the matter aside" until he had finished his journeys and "re-discovered himself".

I am not sure whether there might be, with Tolkien being a Catholic, some sort of "pilgrim value of celibacy" there, too - as in, the value of one feeling his vocation to do something else, be it spiritual life in a retreat in a monastery or, like in this case, a long journey with uncertain goal. I think that's what Aragorn felt, at least: vocation, at least until his task was done. With Frodo and Bilbo, it was probably more unintentional, though there is this remark in the sense of "maybe some foreboding that stopped them from marrying" somewhere. With Sam... I would say, personally, that his place was still to stand by Frodo and help him, too, so first the task needed to be done, AND on top of that, I would personally say he needed to "grow up" a bit. With Pippin and Merry, they DEFINITELY needed to "grow up" a bit first (but they were also very young, so for them it was only a teenagers' adventure, so to say). Gimli... maybe still slightly too young to be married, besides, we know how problematic it is with the Dwarves? And Legolas... well, he's an Elf, that's also a bit different issue. And of course, no need to ask about Gandalf at this moment. Who did I forget? Ah, Boromir. But he seems to me to be a guy "married to his sword" in a way. Besides, I am sure if he had been married, then Faramir would have been sent instead of him for sure.

[Inziladun]

I think Legate covered it pretty well, but I would support his statement about Boromir with this:

Boromir...beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife, and delighting chiefly in arms...

ROTK Appendix A

Seeing the Fellowship through Elrond's eyes, that all were "called", I would also say that the collective unmarried status of the Fellowship would have been one of the criteria for their inclusion in it, for the reasons Legate stated.

[Alfirin]

There is also the simple matter of practicallity. Rember, the odds on the quest suceeding were pretty slim. the odds of all of the Fellowship (or indeed ANY of the Fellowship) making it back alive slimmer still. Gandalf/Elrond needed obligation free individuals, since in all probability, they all WOULD perish on the journey (except maybe Gandalf) I'd say the strongest example of this would probably be Samwise, who after all, is the only one who is sort of engaged(to Rosie) at the time he goes away (okay tecnically Aragorn is engaged too, but the nature of his engagement means he sort of HAS to choose the quest (if the ring is not destroyed, he can't really become king (okay, technically he could, but I doubt Elrond would accept being king of Gondor/Arnor in a world where Sauron technically ruled both of them, (along with everything else) as really living up to the specifications he laid down) and if he can't become king, he can't wed Arwen). He is really the only one who sort of has to make the choice. He COULD have married Rosie before he left (maybe, I'm not sure if pre-jouney Sam had enough social status to be considered an acceptable beau) But then a lot of akward things come up later. Think about when Sam decides to keep going with Frodo to Mordor, knowing that, even if her suceed he will presumably die. It's hard enough for him the way it stands. Can you imagine how the scene would have gone if Sam was having to do that knowing he was dooming his newly blushing bride to early widowhood (or, god help me, a newly pregnant rose to widowhood and raising thier son alone.) That might have been enough to make him turn back.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Besides, I am sure if he had been married, then Faramir would have been sent instead of him for sure.

Funny you should mention that. I have a nagging feeling that had circumstances been a little different. That could have happened. Say, if the preparations in Rinvendell for the Journey were guranteed to take so long as to allow Boromir to travel BACK to Minas Tirith report to Denethor, get his orders and still be sure of making it back to Rivendell before the Fellowship left (he took a long time findig it the first time, but presumably he would know the way this time, thereby cutting. down the journey). Under those circumstances, Denethor might have decided that, as the Steward-Heir Boromir was simply too valuable to risk on such a fool's errand. He migh very well have decided this was best left to "expendable" Faramir (Faramir doesn't know the way, but Boromir could draw him a map now, or even accompany him back to Rivendell as a guide then return to Minas Tirith himself) or al least demand Boromir forget this stupid "party of nine" plan and Demand the Fellowship take a few companies of Gondorian soldiers with them for protection (If indeed he didn't go for the obvios path and simply order Boromir to take most of the Gondorian Army back with him to Rivendell and take the ring by force, "For the good of the West".

[Morthoron]

Well, Legolas was always a bit light in the elvish slippers, if you know what I mean. Put the Faery in Middle-earth, he did. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Say no more, say no more!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

one of the reasons why Gandalf thought Bilbo might be the right person to send on adventure was because he wasn't married.

Gandalf also thought Bilbo was a bit queer.

I'd still like to emphasize more the fact that married people wouldn't have been as willing to go. Not just that they wouldn't have been sent, but that they wouldn't have taken up the task if there had been someone important waiting for them back home. I'm not sure how common orphaned or otherwise lonely protagonists were in fantasy-esque books before Tolkien's time, but in contemporary fantasy they definitely seem to flourish.

Also, I agree with Legate that Tolkien's Catholicism might have played a part in it. The first thought I had when seeing this thread was that Catholic priests don't marry so that they could dedicate themselves entirely to their vocation, and it seems plausible that Tolkien had something of the sort in mind, even if not consciously. The Fellowship had to dedicate themselves first and foremost to saving Middle-earth.

Furthermore, Tolkien showed the doubt the Fellowship went through - why didn't I turn back? why did I leave Lórien? why did I come in the first place? - and plot-wise, it would've been difficult to have somebody constantly pining for their spouse. Think how different Elrond's words would have been to anybody who was in love:

You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.

[Formendacil]

With the exception of Frodo and Gandalf, who to my mind are rather clear celibates in the Catholic sense of being consecrated to something "higher," I wonder if the single nature of the rest of the Fellowship could be related to the distortion of proper nature that comes of a Sauron-run Middle-earth.

Obviously, this is most apparent with Aragorn: he cannot get married until Sauron is defeated and his thrones restored: Sauron is a clear and direct impediment to the good that would come of his marriage (which is directly manifested in the continuation of Lúthien's line among Men).

But it's not just Aragorn: from the (brief) comments that Sam gives to Frodo about his feelings for Rosie, she was expecting him to propose--only he ran off with Frodo right about when she expected. In other words, the evil of Sauron intervenes and the effect is Sam feeling divided when he ought to feel whole (Frodo's words, more or less).

Boromir too, insofar as Legate is probably right that he is married to his sword, is something of a typical Gondorian in this respect: remember the description of Minas Tirith when Pippin and Gandalf arrive: a mostly empty city, proud but with too few children. Note also that, as with Aragorn and Sam, when Sauron is removed, Gondor's fortunes change and there is new life--and more children (and thus more marriage) in Minas Tirith thereafter.

Gimli and Legolas, I think, can each be seen as typical of their races, similar to Boromir being representative of the problem affecting all Gondor: the Dwarves multiply but slowly--a process impeded by constantly fighting goblins and finding new homes--and the Elves are fading. It is notable that they do NOT marry after the War of the Ring, because for the Elves and Dwarves victory is much more bittersweet than for Men and Hobbits: the enemy is defeated, but the Age of Man is begun. They will be happy for a time, but they will not be fruitful in Middle-earth.

And that leaves Merry and Pippin, who are, truly, a bit young at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Pippin, but as far as that goes they could be said to stand in the place of the future generations who are affected by the outcome of the War of the Ring. Unlike Sam and Aragorn, they would not be married in 1419 one way or the other, but their chances of getting married in the 1420s is utterly dependent on whether or Sauron's empire stands.

Mind you, none of this is to say that Tolkien used these characters solely for any representative function vis-a-vis their marital status. But he DOES use marriage as a direct correlation for a happy, fulfilled --normal-- life, and he uses it consistently with regards to the Fellowship (and others): Gandalf and Frodo do not get a happy, normal life after the War; Gandalf by nature and Frodo by result of what he went through. Aragorn, Sam, Arwen, Rosie, Merry, Pippin, (and Faramir and Eowyn) do. Gimli and Legolas do not--not because they are unhappy, but because their fates are much more bittersweet: they do not get the same kind of fulfillment (aka progeny) that the others do.

[Bêthberry]

Given the dearth of women among the Inklings, the scarcity of female academics during Tolkien's time, the proscriptions against female travel (the Grand Tour of Europe was gentlemen's perogative in the eighteenth century but not a ladies') and the absence of married couples in most epic adventure stories (although not in folk tales), is it any wonder there are no married couples? Domestic concerns were never really part of high literature unless it was the likes of the (adulterous) medieval romance tradition.

After all, would it be conceivable to interrupt the quest for childbirth?

This is actually one reason why I enjoyed the Patrick Rothfuss book, The Name of the Wind: it has such well developed early episodes about a travelling troupe with families et al. Sure, they aren't on a quest adventure thingy, but the book does present a full social context before the hero is orphaned, like so many Victorian heroes and heroines (sheroes?) are. That Victorian literary tradition might also have an influence.

[Galadriel55]

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned, so instead of repeating I will just make a note about Sam. I think that the Quest really helped him marry, though not in the way it helped Aragorn. Rosie would have married him regardless, that is clear I think - how stoutly she believed in him when he left without a word, how she greeted him, etc. But Sam was too much of a boy still, and it would have taken him much more effort to make the step. The quest gave him more maturity. I'd say that he appreciates his Shire life with Rosie more due to the Quest, but that's more Merry and Pippin than him. He would have appreciated her even without all the adventuring. He's just that kind of person. But he still needed to mature.

[Alfirin]

I think that Sam's increased maturity is also revealed in another thing; what he does vis a vis Rose after he comes back. One might expect him to marry Rose almost as soon as he gets back (or at least as soon as the Shire is repaired). He has the standing now, he is much more financially secured (remember Bilbo gave him the small sack of gold in Rivendell specifically on the grounds it would come in handy when he married.)and he's certainly EARNED a little happiness. But he doesn't. Most likely this is because he has now grown so much he has come to the conclusion that he STILL has an obligation . He knows Frodo is suffering, and has decided its his job to look after him, even if that means he can NEVER marry or have any sort of life of his own. It's only when Frodo suggests sam move into Bag End with him, realizes the problem and comes up with the solution of Sam marrying Rosie and them BOTH coming to live in Bag end (basically allowing Sam to "have his cake and eat it too") that Sam finally does it.

[Firefoot]

Don't have a lot to add to what others have said about the Fellowship, but it did get me wondering about the Dwarves of The Hobbit - mostly Gloin, being the only Dwarf we know of with a family (correct me if I'm wrong).

But when the Dwarves set out for Erebor Gimli had already been born in 2879, making him 62 at the time of TH, making him 15-20 years younger than Fili and Kili, who were considered young/barely old enough to come along. So Gloin at the least left an 'adolescent' son at home, possibly also a wife, though it's never acknowledged. Perhaps that says something about the difference in nature between the Dwarves' quest and the Fellowship's.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It just struck me that not one of the Fellowship has a spouse.

Except Aragorn, Sam, Merry and Pippin for sure. And it's perfectly possible that Legolas and Gimli eventually had wives too.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Except Aragorn, Sam, Merry and Pippin for sure. And it's perfectly possible that Legolas and Gimli eventually had wives too.

They only married after the adventure, which was discussed here. As for Legolas and Gimli, while it's possible, I'm quite sure it would've been mentioned because it was mentioned about everybody else, and because Tolkien also told us about the more significant things that happened to them after the war.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As for Legolas and Gimli, while it's possible, I'm quite sure it would've been mentioned because it was mentioned about everybody else, and because Tolkien also told us about the more significant things that happened to them after the war.

I have doubts about Legolas and Gimli in that respect as well. ROTK Appendix A gives no indication that Gimli fathered any offspring, and that would seem to be the primary reason for Dwarven matrimony.

As for Legolas, it's just not easy to believe he would have left Middle-earth when he did, if he'd had a wife. I always thought that his and Gimli's leaving together stemmed from both having nothing else to hold them there.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I think that Sam's increased maturity is also revealed in another thing; what he does vis a vis Rose after he comes back. One might expect him to marry Rose almost as soon as he gets back (or at least as soon as the Shire is repaired). He has the standing now, he is much more financially secured (remember Bilbo gave him the small sack of gold in Rivendell specifically on the grounds it would come in handy when he married.)and he's certainly EARNED a little happiness. But he doesn't. Most likely this is because he has now grown so much he has come to the conclusion that he STILL has an obligation . He knows Frodo is suffering, and has decided its his job to look after him, even if that means he can NEVER marry or have any sort of life of his own. It's only when Frodo suggests sam move into Bag End with him, realizes the problem and comes up with the solution of Sam marrying Rosie and them BOTH coming to live in Bag end (basically allowing Sam to "have his cake and eat it too") that Sam finally does it.

He's already asked Rose to marry him by then, though, because he says to Frodo 'Now I have spoken, and she says "Well, you've wasted a year, so why wait longer?"'

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

He's already asked Rose to marry him by then, though, because he says to Frodo 'Now I have spoken, and she says "Well, you've wasted a year, so why wait longer?"'

Asked her to marry him yes, but I think they are having some trouble setting a date. They are engaged, but I have this feeling that, had Frodo not come up with the solution, Sam would have kept putting the actual wedding off longer and longer, possibly forever so he could keep looking after Master Frodo. There's also the question of exactly what he said to Rose, whether it was a full on "Will you marry me" or a simple "I love you and would like to marry you someday" Rose's answer could sort of fit either.

[Sarumian]

So many valuable points has been already made here! I'd like, however to tackle a very delicate subject. I strongly believe that there is (was) no sexuality of our kind in Tolkien's universe. Apparently, there are sexes and conception but there is no sexual lust. What precipitates lust here is power, not the attraction to opposite sex. Due to this reason celibacy in this universe seems to be much more a way one can choose without committing oneself to the struggle against sexual desire.

Those in love in Middle Earth are free of persistent sexual attraction and thus is ready to wait for a proper time to build a family. There is also no problem with love that people of the same sex can feel to each other as there is nothing "sexual" in such love. It is a kind of philia or even agape, rather than eros. I would risk to say this about Frodo and Sam as well as about Legolas and Gimli, but in Middle Earth the lack of lust is typical even for relationship between different sexes.

[Bêthberry]

Hmm. I don't think Luthien and Beren are free of sexual lust. There is an Oo la la Luthien thread here that discusses their attraction for each other. And Daeron is said to love her and for that love betrayed her and Beren.

Maeglin certainly harbours a cruel lust for Idril. Eol also has a cruel lust.

There are several cases of assault and rape as well and women being forced to submit to marriage against their will. This is in the Silm, of course, not LotR.

I think there are suggestions that Aragorn and Arwen do have a sexual attraction for each other. And Eowyn's attraction for Aragorn is very interesting as it mixes her attraction for his power with something else.

I do think there is the suggestion that as the elves age they lose sexual desire but there is eros in LotR. Not writ large by any means, but it is subtly suggested. Sex was not openly discussed in Victorian literature but there's lots of it in those long tomes. It just becomes represented differently from our modern graphic ways.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

So many valuable points has been already made here! I'd like, however to tackle a very delicate subject. I strongly believe that there is (was) no sexuality of our kind in Tolkien's universe. Apparently, there are sexes and conception but there is no sexual lust. What precipitates lust here is power, not the attraction to opposite sex.

I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. There is a lot of evidence. For instance, starting even with a Vala and an Elf-maiden:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien

Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought.

Or, what Gandalf had discovered about Wormtongue and his desire for Éowyn:

Originally Posted by Two Towers, The King of the Golden Hall

How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.

Aside from this, from the top of my head I recall there being something about Maeglin, very probably about Eöl, maybe even about others, very likely something with Nienor and some of the men around her etc. Oh, and let us not forget the part about Túrin rebuking Forweg's followers, the outlaws:

Originally Posted by UT, Túrin among the Outlaws (or CoH)

Then one day Túrin missed Forweg, and also Andróg his friend; and he asked where they were, but his companions laughed.
"Away on business of their own, I guess," said Ulrad. "They will be back before long, and then we shall move. In haste, maybe; for we shall be lucky if they do not bring the hive-bees after them."

And the very interesting episode follows with the woman, Túrin killing Forweg, and rebuking the men for "doing such things".

So, lust very much exists. Even, as we see e.g. in the last episode, among the men of the House of Hador. But it is definitely shown only in the case of the bad characters, because they don't have the self-restraint the other characters possess (or, rather, they don't even have the desire to restrain themselves - not like e.g. Aragorn who was able to hold himself until he could finally be with the one he loved, or even Sam, that's basically the same case).

EDIT: cross-posted with Bethberry.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Hmm. I don't think Luthien and Beren are free of sexual lust. There is an Oo la la Luthien thread here that discusses their attraction for each other. And Daeron is said to love her and for that love betrayed her and Beren.

Maeglin certainly harbours a cruel lust for Idril. Eol also has a cruel lust.

There are several cases of assault and rape as well and women being forced to submit to marriage against their will. This is in the Silm, of course, not LotR.

Not to mention the "evil lust" of Morgoth as he watched Lúthien dance and sing.
With the exception of Beren/Lúthien, it may be notable that "lust" seems to lead to negative consequences.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think there are suggestions that Aragorn and Arwen do have a sexual attraction for each other.

I would classify those two as a later version of the Beren and Lúthien pairing, as the basic stories are quite similar.

x/d with Legate

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not to mention the "evil lust" of Morgoth as he watched Lúthien dance and sing.
With the exception of Beren/Lúthien, it may be notable that "lust" seems to lead to negative consequences.

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power. In a book about the misuses of power, sexual assault would be prime examples of abuse. Wormtongue, as Legate remarks, is a particularly creepy example.

The ability not to impose one's wishes on others is a central value in LotR and that refers to sexual desire as well as other attempts at control. Tolkien really has a remarkably modern view of sexual assault.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power.

I think that is mostly valid in the context of Tolkien, though I would question it in the case of Morgoth. It seems there that the "power" motive might not have been primary, as he already held (as he thought) tremendous power in Middle-earth. In any case, Lúthien would have been, to his mind, completely in his power, being deep inside his stronghold, with countless minions standing between her and escape. In that instance, it appears that a sexual lust was possibly independent of a desire to assert power.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think that is mostly valid in the context of Tolkien, though I would question it in the case of Morgoth. It seems there that the "power" motive might not have been primary, as he already held (as he thought) tremendous power in Middle-earth. In any case, Lúthien would have been, to his mind, completely in his power, being deep inside his stronghold, with countless minions standing between her and escape. In that instance, it appears that a sexual lust was possibly independent of a desire to assert power.

There is power and power. Sure, she was inside his stronghold, and seemingly helpless. That's one type of power. But Morgoth has a desire to posess her - not only to have control over her, but more like Ungoliant wanted to devour all Light, and Morgoth wanted to posess the Silmarili. Knowing that you have control is not always enough "power" in this sense.

Saying that, though, it does not mean that there was no sexual lust whatever.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There is power and power. Sure, she was inside his stronghold, and seemingly helpless. That's one type of power. But Morgoth has a desire to posess her - not only to have control over her, but more like Ungoliant wanted to devour all Light, and Morgoth wanted to posess the Silmarili. Knowing that you have control is not always enough "power" in this sense.

The incident as described in The Silmarillion though would seem to lead away from "possession" as Morgoth's motive.

Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor.

That seems entirely of a sexual nature. The desire to possess was obviously not a new one to Morgoth, and if that had been chiefly in his thought, I don't see why his feelings about Lúthien would have been of such note.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

There is also no problem with love that people of the same sex can feel to each other as there is nothing "sexual" in such love. It is a kind of philia or even agape, rather than eros. I would risk to say this about Frodo and Sam as well as about Legolas and Gimli, but in Middle Earth the lack of lust is typical even for relationship between different sexes.

I'm inclined to agree on this regarding Frodo and Sam. There's a deep love between them, and presumably also between Legolas and Gimli, although we know less about that, which also demonstrates itself physically, but I've never been able to see a sexual tension. Not in the book, not in the films (even if the latter did spark discussion about homoerotic elements). I'm happy about it, because it tires me that love is so oftren connected with sexual attraction.

It's true, though, that most lust shown in Tolkien's works is evil. There's also one passage that hasn't been pointed out explicitly but which I find the most outrageous of all - in one of Tolkien's earlier writings, Melkor actually raped Arien because she refused to marry him. Anyhow, pretty much everyone who has been mentioned here as experiencing sexual desire, with the exception of Beren and Lúthien (and elves and their healthy sex lives in general), are evil in one way or another.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power. In a book about the misuses of power, sexual assault would be prime examples of abuse. Wormtongue, as Legate remarks, is a particularly creepy example.

The ability not to impose one's wishes on others is a central value in LotR and that refers to sexual desire as well as other attempts at control. Tolkien really has a remarkably modern view of sexual assault.

That's very interesting, Bêthberry, considering what Tolkien said about the Elves and their attitudes to sex and marriage in 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar', from Morgoth's Ring, the tenth volume of The History of Middle-earth. In a revised manuscript, which Christopher Tolkien called 'B', he had this to say:

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that fell upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.

In an earlier completed manuscript ('A') on the same topic, he said:

But among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible (even if it could be thought that any Elf would purpose to use it); for the Eldar can read at once in their eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed.

So elves seldom committed sexual misbehaviour, let alone what we would call sexual or sex offences. Also, it was totally against their nature to rape a married elf, the raped elf feeling so violated if it happened he or she would die as a result. I smiled a little when I read how the use of guile or trickery in this area was impossible, elves knowing in the eyes and voice of each other who is married. It would certainly make adultery difficult!

[Aganzir]

Wasn't it also implied that Celebrían suffered sexual violence in the hands of the orcs that captured her, or am I imagining things?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Wasn't it also implied that Celebrían suffered sexual violence in the hands of the orcs that captured her, or am I imagining things?

Hm. ROTK Appendix A says she

....was seized and carried off (by Orcs). She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound.

That event caused her to "lose all delight in Middle-earth", so that she left for the Havens.

And in FOTR, Many Meetings, it says that Elladan and Elrohir rode often with the Rangers, "forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs".

I wouldn't say that sexual assault is actually implied in her case, but it's not out of the question.

[Faramir Jones]

According to 'The Council of Elrond' in LotR, Elladan and Elrohir 'rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs'. Later, in 'Appendix A', it is said that during her capture 'she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound'.

[Aganzir]

I remember those, but the wide speculation leads me to wonder if there are any further references in HoME. Alas, I don't have copies of the History of the Lord of the Rings.

Still, even if sexual assault was the case, it would be orcs, and thus evil lust again.

[Bêthberry]

Would Tom and Goldberry in LotR count as happy desire? Or are they too domesticated for their actions together to have any sexual implication?

There is a certain dark playfulness to their relationship in the original poems. (There's certainly sexual animosity in Tom's source (well, one of his sources), the Kalevala.)

Must go peruse my BoLT tonight, where the elves are rather different from LotR's elves and owe more to the style of, say, Rossetti's "Goblin Town".

[Aganzir]

They probably would, especially considering the Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Ooh I love Christina Rossetti!

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I remember those, but the wide speculation leads me to wonder if there are any further references in HoME. Alas, I don't have copies of the History of the Lord of the Rings.

Still, even if sexual assault was the case, it would be orcs, and thus evil lust again.

According to Volume XII of The History of Middle-earth, Tolkien had originally thought of killing Celebrían. In an early outline of the Third Age is this entry: 'c. 2600 Celebrían is slain by Orcs on the road over the Mountains to visit Galadriel'. (The History of Middle-earth: XII. The Peoples of Middle-earth (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), p. 226)

In an early draft of 'The Tale of Years', it said that she was captured and rescued, but 'after fear and torment' was unwilling to stay in Middle-earth, and went into the West. (Ibid., pp. 235-6)

In an early draft of 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen', she was captured and 'tormented'. While she was rescued, 'and her hurts of body were healed, she lay under a great cloud of fear and she loved Middle-earth no longer'; so she went into the West. (Ibid., p. 264)

[Bêthberry]

Frodo was also quite smitten by Goldberry, in a way which we are told is "less lofty" than that of elves.

[Galadriel55]

And speaking of Mr. and Mrs. Bombadil, I was always a teeny bit oo-la-la-ed by the end of this passage here from Adventures of Tom Bom:

He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: ‘Here’s my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you’ll find no lover!’

My only reaction is: ha!

[Bêthberry]

Thinking back to the thread title, "No Married Persons", I think the question also needs to be asked, just how were folks in Middle-earth "married" if there were no churches, no religion, no priests/ministers?

We know the customs of the elves and what Tolkien says about elven marriage and sexual intercourse. But I can't think of any discussion of how hobbits set up domestic life together. What constituted "marriage" in Gondor and Numenor? Did the Rohirrim have wedding vows? Dwarves would seem to be a big blank.

Faramir uses the word 'wed' with Eowyn and we are told that Aragorn and Arwen are wed, but the precise nature of the ritual or ceremony is not shown, except that Elrond places their hands together. Faramir and Eowyn seem to have great mixing of hair.

It is simply a public declaration of their troth without formal ceremony? Is that what constitutes marriage in Middle-earth?

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Thinking back to the thread title, "No Married Persons", I think the question also needs to be asked, just how were folks in Middle-earth "married" if there were no churches, no religion, no priests/ministers?

We know the customs of the elves and what Tolkien says about elven marriage and sexual intercourse. But I can't think of any discussion of how hobbits set up domestic life together. What constituted "marriage" in Gondor and Numenor? Did the Rohirrim have wedding vows? Dwarves would seem to be a big blank.

Faramir uses the word 'wed' with Eowyn and we are told that Aragorn and Arwen are wed, but the precise nature of the ritual or ceremony is not shown, except that Elrond places their hands together. Faramir and Eowyn seem to have great mixing of hair.

It is simply a public declaration of their troth without formal ceremony? Is that what constitutes marriage in Middle-earth?

It's fair to assume that, in Numenor and in the Realms in Exile, the customs of the elves were followed, including those concerning marriage. Certainly, the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen would have been in the elvish fashion.

The Rohirrim, at least at the top of society, might have followed Gondorian, and therefore elvish custom, including the marriage of Thengel with Morwen, a Gondorian woman; but when we go to people like hobbits, let alone dwarves, we know nothing.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

The Rohirrim, at least at the top of society, might have followed Gondorian, and therefore elvish custom, including the marriage of Thengel with Morwen, a Gondorian woman; but when we go to people like hobbits, let alone dwarves, we know nothing.

Well Both Fodo and Bilbo use the word "married" with regards to what Sam is planning to do with regards to Rosie, so their presumably has to be some sort of formal action. Probably similar to some old English marrying custom. Which one or ones I have no clue (except I am fairly sure that, given the nature of hobbit costume, the one where the groom touches the bride's head with one of the brides shoes is probably not one of them!) Maybe they jump the broomstick (given how clean the hobbits tend to be I'm sure no Hobbit household lacks one.)

[Aganzir]

I think we can pretty firmly deduce that hobbits had big wedding parties that involved giving presents.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well Both Fodo and Bilbo use the word "married" with regards to what Sam is planning to do with regards to Rosie, so their presumably has to be some sort of formal action. Probably similar to some old English marrying custom. Which one or ones I have no clue (except I am fairly sure that, given the nature of hobbit costume, the one where the groom touches the bride's head with one of the brides shoes is probably not one of them!) Maybe they jump the broomstick (given how clean the hobbits tend to be I'm sure no Hobbit household lacks one.)

When I said 'nothing', I meant that we didn't know about the marriage ceremonies of the dwarves and the hobbits. This was unlike those of the elves, and of the men influenced by them. Marriage obviously exists among the Free Peoples, and monogamous marriage at that. According to Tolkien:

'Monogamy' was at this period in the West universally practised, and other systems were regarded with repugnance as things only done 'under the Shadow'. (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 214, p. 296)