No Married Persons

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not to mention the "evil lust" of Morgoth as he watched Lúthien dance and sing.
With the exception of Beren/Lúthien, it may be notable that "lust" seems to lead to negative consequences.

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power. In a book about the misuses of power, sexual assault would be prime examples of abuse. Wormtongue, as Legate remarks, is a particularly creepy example.

The ability not to impose one's wishes on others is a central value in LotR and that refers to sexual desire as well as other attempts at control. Tolkien really has a remarkably modern view of sexual assault.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power.

I think that is mostly valid in the context of Tolkien, though I would question it in the case of Morgoth. It seems there that the "power" motive might not have been primary, as he already held (as he thought) tremendous power in Middle-earth. In any case, Lúthien would have been, to his mind, completely in his power, being deep inside his stronghold, with countless minions standing between her and escape. In that instance, it appears that a sexual lust was possibly independent of a desire to assert power.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think that is mostly valid in the context of Tolkien, though I would question it in the case of Morgoth. It seems there that the "power" motive might not have been primary, as he already held (as he thought) tremendous power in Middle-earth. In any case, Lúthien would have been, to his mind, completely in his power, being deep inside his stronghold, with countless minions standing between her and escape. In that instance, it appears that a sexual lust was possibly independent of a desire to assert power.

There is power and power. Sure, she was inside his stronghold, and seemingly helpless. That's one type of power. But Morgoth has a desire to posess her - not only to have control over her, but more like Ungoliant wanted to devour all Light, and Morgoth wanted to posess the Silmarili. Knowing that you have control is not always enough "power" in this sense.

Saying that, though, it does not mean that there was no sexual lust whatever.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There is power and power. Sure, she was inside his stronghold, and seemingly helpless. That's one type of power. But Morgoth has a desire to posess her - not only to have control over her, but more like Ungoliant wanted to devour all Light, and Morgoth wanted to posess the Silmarili. Knowing that you have control is not always enough "power" in this sense.

The incident as described in The Silmarillion though would seem to lead away from "possession" as Morgoth's motive.

Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor.

That seems entirely of a sexual nature. The desire to possess was obviously not a new one to Morgoth, and if that had been chiefly in his thought, I don't see why his feelings about Lúthien would have been of such note.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

There is also no problem with love that people of the same sex can feel to each other as there is nothing "sexual" in such love. It is a kind of philia or even agape, rather than eros. I would risk to say this about Frodo and Sam as well as about Legolas and Gimli, but in Middle Earth the lack of lust is typical even for relationship between different sexes.

I'm inclined to agree on this regarding Frodo and Sam. There's a deep love between them, and presumably also between Legolas and Gimli, although we know less about that, which also demonstrates itself physically, but I've never been able to see a sexual tension. Not in the book, not in the films (even if the latter did spark discussion about homoerotic elements). I'm happy about it, because it tires me that love is so oftren connected with sexual attraction.

It's true, though, that most lust shown in Tolkien's works is evil. There's also one passage that hasn't been pointed out explicitly but which I find the most outrageous of all - in one of Tolkien's earlier writings, Melkor actually raped Arien because she refused to marry him. Anyhow, pretty much everyone who has been mentioned here as experiencing sexual desire, with the exception of Beren and Lúthien (and elves and their healthy sex lives in general), are evil in one way or another.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it is very interesting that the negative examples of lust certainly are full of issues of power, as Sarumian suggests. It is of course modern legal and psychological definitions of sexual assault that remove rape from sexual desire and describe it not as desire but as power. In a book about the misuses of power, sexual assault would be prime examples of abuse. Wormtongue, as Legate remarks, is a particularly creepy example.

The ability not to impose one's wishes on others is a central value in LotR and that refers to sexual desire as well as other attempts at control. Tolkien really has a remarkably modern view of sexual assault.

That's very interesting, Bêthberry, considering what Tolkien said about the Elves and their attitudes to sex and marriage in 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar', from Morgoth's Ring, the tenth volume of The History of Middle-earth. In a revised manuscript, which Christopher Tolkien called 'B', he had this to say:

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that fell upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.

In an earlier completed manuscript ('A') on the same topic, he said:

But among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible (even if it could be thought that any Elf would purpose to use it); for the Eldar can read at once in their eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed.

So elves seldom committed sexual misbehaviour, let alone what we would call sexual or sex offences. Also, it was totally against their nature to rape a married elf, the raped elf feeling so violated if it happened he or she would die as a result. I smiled a little when I read how the use of guile or trickery in this area was impossible, elves knowing in the eyes and voice of each other who is married. It would certainly make adultery difficult!

[Aganzir]

Wasn't it also implied that Celebrían suffered sexual violence in the hands of the orcs that captured her, or am I imagining things?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Wasn't it also implied that Celebrían suffered sexual violence in the hands of the orcs that captured her, or am I imagining things?

Hm. ROTK Appendix A says she

....was seized and carried off (by Orcs). She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound.

That event caused her to "lose all delight in Middle-earth", so that she left for the Havens.

And in FOTR, Many Meetings, it says that Elladan and Elrohir rode often with the Rangers, "forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs".

I wouldn't say that sexual assault is actually implied in her case, but it's not out of the question.

[Faramir Jones]

According to 'The Council of Elrond' in LotR, Elladan and Elrohir 'rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs'. Later, in 'Appendix A', it is said that during her capture 'she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound'.

[Aganzir]

I remember those, but the wide speculation leads me to wonder if there are any further references in HoME. Alas, I don't have copies of the History of the Lord of the Rings.

Still, even if sexual assault was the case, it would be orcs, and thus evil lust again.

[Bêthberry]

Would Tom and Goldberry in LotR count as happy desire? Or are they too domesticated for their actions together to have any sexual implication?

There is a certain dark playfulness to their relationship in the original poems. (There's certainly sexual animosity in Tom's source (well, one of his sources), the Kalevala.)

Must go peruse my BoLT tonight, where the elves are rather different from LotR's elves and owe more to the style of, say, Rossetti's "Goblin Town".

[Aganzir]

They probably would, especially considering the Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Ooh I love Christina Rossetti!

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I remember those, but the wide speculation leads me to wonder if there are any further references in HoME. Alas, I don't have copies of the History of the Lord of the Rings.

Still, even if sexual assault was the case, it would be orcs, and thus evil lust again.

According to Volume XII of The History of Middle-earth, Tolkien had originally thought of killing Celebrían. In an early outline of the Third Age is this entry: 'c. 2600 Celebrían is slain by Orcs on the road over the Mountains to visit Galadriel'. (The History of Middle-earth: XII. The Peoples of Middle-earth (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), p. 226)

In an early draft of 'The Tale of Years', it said that she was captured and rescued, but 'after fear and torment' was unwilling to stay in Middle-earth, and went into the West. (Ibid., pp. 235-6)

In an early draft of 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen', she was captured and 'tormented'. While she was rescued, 'and her hurts of body were healed, she lay under a great cloud of fear and she loved Middle-earth no longer'; so she went into the West. (Ibid., p. 264)

[Bêthberry]

Frodo was also quite smitten by Goldberry, in a way which we are told is "less lofty" than that of elves.