Elves and Ringwraiths

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

Yes, he was, actually, according to the definition of "Eldar" used in the published "Silmarillion"- there the Nandor were Teleri, thus Eldar. Mind you, Tolkien's concept of "Eldar" vs "Avari" was one he revised quite a bit, as he did many other things... but that's in itself a reason not to get too dogmatic on these sort of issues.

More to the point, the member of whom you're demanding "proof" made that post ten years ago, and hasn't been around for a while... so I'm afraid you could be waiting a long time for a reply.

Welcome to the Downs!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, he was, actually, according to the definition of "Eldar" used in the published "Silmarillion"- there the Nandor were Teleri, thus Eldar. Mind you, Tolkien's concept of "Eldar" vs "Avari" was one he revised quite a bit, as he did many other things... but that's in itself a reason not to get too dogmatic on these sort of issues.

More to the point, the member of whom you're demanding "proof" made that post ten years ago, and hasn't been around for a while... so I'm afraid you could be waiting a long time for a reply.

Welcome to the Downs!

Yeah that seems correct but it is also stated that they become very different from the Sindar, probably they weren't so strong and Saeros wasn't also a militar.

The Elves in Middle-earth were "a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar [referring to the Noldor Eldar] were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars.

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. - One of his latest notes.

[Galin]

The Elves in Middle-earth were "a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar [referring to the Noldor Eldar] were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars.

First I note that the passage continues: '... People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin.'

Christopher Tolkien's objection to this passage is in reference to the fact that the mostly golden-haired Vanyar are Eldar by any definition, and the larger passage seems to say that the Eldar were generally dark-haired. This is being corrected in new editions of The Return of the King where a footnote has been added to note that: ['These words describing characters of face and hair in fact applied only to the Noldor: see The Book of Lost Tales, Part One, p. 44']

But there is further explanation from Christopher Tolkien about this matter too, where, in The Peoples of Middle-Earth he explains that despite the notion of the 'golden Vanyar' appearing to have pre-dated the final form of Appendix F, his father yet carefully revised this passage to refer to the Eldar, not just the Noldor.

Moreover, although the added footnote is correct in one sense, in my opinion in an internal sense the characteristics can easily apply to the Sindar too -- thus 'the Eldar of Middle-earth' [includes the Sindar*]. Which I think is a good way to view this passage, considering that the Vanyar were 'hardly' in Middle-earth from a relative, historical standpoint at least. As you quoted yourself above...

7. In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe."

And Tolkien further notes here that it was the brightness of the eyes of the Exiles that helped make them distinct from the Sindar.

WCH has well argued that Tolkien probably goofed here Vanyar-wise, but JRRT later changed 'House of Finrod' here to 'House of Finarfin' for the Second Edition, and so must have missed his own suggestion about the Vanyar here once again? I guess it's possible.

Anyway in the end the text was never corrected [besides Finarfin I mean] by the author himself, and CJRT's objection also supports that the term Eldar is meant, not the Noldorin Eldar only. And in any case I don't see Christopher Tolkien's objection as pertaining to anything but the characteristics that follow the part of the passage you quoted -- although that said, I can see why, if one accepts 'they' as the Noldor as far as hair and so on, then the Noldor can be meant in the earlier passage too.

For myself, I say can't we just leave it as Eldar? I'm all for getting the hair colour right...

... but I'm not sure even CJRT would know Tolkien's move if he noted the 'problem' here. If his father thought it was a problem! I mean why can't we have dark-haired Vanyar as a 'fix' [the idea of the golden Vanyar is the 'unpublished' part in any case], and some golden haired East-elves?

There's seemingly one in Lorien already

__________

*Nerwen has already spoken to the changing nature of the term Eldar, and in The Lord of the Rings itself [but not necessarily in other works], in my opinion Eldar refers properly to the Vanyar** Noldor and Sindar only -- changing internally from its original reference to all Elves of course.

**The Vanyar are not noted, if I recall correctly, but are included as Eldar by implication, being Elves who passed Over Sea.

It does appear that Tolkien changed his mind to include the Nandor, and any who started the Great Journey, not simply those who passed Over Sea save the Sindar only, or [essentially] 'West-elves' [again based on text in The Return of the King].