Elves and Ringwraiths

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

-Galin, I think that physical description of the Eldar in the "Return of the King" appendices may indeed refer to those of Middle-earth only- if you assume the point is to describe the Eldar as Men knew them (in which case the appearance of the Vanyar isn't relevant).

That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, let me explain something, re: ranking. No-one would doubt that some characters are meant to be more powerful than others, or better-looking, or taller, or whatever. What I, G55 and others take issue with is your belief that all the major characters can be precisely, objectively and definitively graded on this basis.

You have, as requested- thank you!- demonstrated your own system for doing this, which seems to involve taking various statements and descriptions written by Tolkien over the years, and making them add up by means of what I'd have to call "selective literalism". If that satisfies you, well and good. However, in my opinion your conclusions are by no means the only possible ones, even on your own terms, nor does disagreeing with them, or even disputing the validity of what you are doing, mean "advocating a chaos".

That is all.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, let me explain something, re: ranking. No-one would doubt that some characters are meant to be more powerful than others, or better-looking, or taller, or whatever. What I, G55 and others take issue with is your belief that all the major characters can be precisely, objectively and definitively graded on this basis.

Where do I say that all major characters can be precisely and objectively graded on any particular basis? You are pulling a strawman argument. I said certain things can be ranked and Tolkien is often very clear with no contradiction when he wants this to be the case. Arguing against Luthien being the fairest, Feanor the greatest craftsman or Earendil the greatest mariner. I don't feel the need or argue that we can rate say whether Faramir was fairer than Boromir, or Denethor had more Numenorean qualities than Faramir.

You have, as requested- thank you!- demonstrated your own system for doing this, which seems to involve taking various statements and descriptions written by Tolkien over the years, and making them add up by means of what I'd have to call "selective literalism". If that satisfies you, well and good. However, in my opinion your conclusions are by no means the only possible ones, even on your own terms, nor does disagreeing with them, or even disputing the validity of what you are doing, mean "advocating a chaos".

That is all.

Once again you are misrepresenting my argument. I don't just go around with a pen marking every time Fingon is called strong and then declare him to be the strongest. I don't particular care of think we have anyway of knowing if Fingon had a stronger will than Finrod.

What I do look at is when a character is called the best at something repeatedly with no contradictions. In such a case I accept what Tolkien is telling me and don't try reject it, because I want my favourite character to have more prominence.

Luthien is called the fairest, with no competition, no contradiction throughout different stories, different drafts etc. Earendil is called the mightiest mariner throughout the story once more with no contradictions. These statements are important to the story and are points Tolkien stresses. I wonder if the resistance to such statements is to elevate personal favourites to a higher role than Tolkien wrote.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Well, I'd never thought of it before myself until I re-read the passage a couple of days ago.

The difficulty is that at the start Tolkien is clearly referring to the Elves of Aman (and, by implication, the Vanyar) as well: "...Eldar, the name of the *Three* Kindreds that sought for the Undying Ream..."

So at some point the subject changes from all the Eldar to those of Middle-earth only. My guess is that the key is in the next sentence where he starts talking about "...such memories of this people as Men preserved...".

[Galin]

WCH wrote: That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Nerwen responded: Well, I'd never thought of it before myself until I re-read the passage a couple of days ago.

The difficulty is that at the start Tolkien is clearly referring to the Elves of Aman (and, by implication, the Vanyar) as well: "...Eldar, the name of the *Three* Kindreds that sought for the Undying Ream..."

So at some point the subject changes from all the Eldar to those of Middle-earth only. My guess is that the key is in the next sentence where he starts talking about "...such memories of this people as Men preserved...".

Yikes, both good points that I never thought about before..

... and [ahem] here I thought it was me who 'invented' this interpretation too


Reading the fuller passage again with both things in mind, I do agree [admittedly with some reason to, no doubt, in attempt to sustain the interpretation] that there is enough intervening text between the two statements, and perhaps notably, as I think is being noted by Nerwen, about how Men perceive what an 'Elf' is, and about them not possessing wings and so on, as some 'mortals' might think in Tolkien's day for instance.


So if this interpretation holds up, can I ask WCH to pass it on to CJRT and let me know what he thinks about taking this new footnote back out of publication?

Well of course I can ask... even if I already know the answer

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, I'll try; but I expect CT will place far more weight on the opinions of Hammond, Scull and Anderson than on mine! I am after all a mere 'pen-friend', not a 'scholar.'

Besides, there is the explicit passage in PME where Tolkien tells us that the Third Kindred, like the Second, was generally dark-haired ("generally" is mine).

[Galin]

Well far better from you than from me in any case. The only letter I ever sent to Christopher Tolkien was trampled by his magic wild boars...

... which is what the letter asked for however, desiring proof that they existed

Anyway, especially considering the phrase you raised, I thought that maybe you had 'cracked the case' on this point [meaning, come up with a good explanation outside of a seeming error] with something even H&S and Anderson maybe hadn't thought of yet. But now is the idea undermined somewhat [opening with besides seems to suggest this] by a description in PME?