Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

high five to that. I add in that it was a story about the power of two/love, and how heroism is evoked for and of love. Neither Beren nor Luthien would, either alone, have been so moved to heroism, but for their love of each other. Unto the end of time they would have gone for their love.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown.

I agree with Beren being at the top of the list of heroes. However, only one hero ever dared to fight Morgoth.

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

Yes, heroic. Is there anything heroic that's not suicidal? You can't be a hero unless you take great risks and (potentially) give up all you have, including your life, for your cause. Fingolfin utterly despaired and was definitely desperate, which makes him somewhat suicidal, but suicide is not what he had in mind when he changed Thangorodrim. It was not "I want to die now, so let's arrange for Morgoth to kill me. I'll look good, but it's not like I have any chance against him". It was more like "Have we not done everything that's possible to defeat him? Mandos' profecy must be coming true, and we'll come to complete destruction. I hate Morgoth! I'm in complete despair! There's no way out, no solution! Nothing we can do will be any good!"