Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

So Finrod was held to his oath, but Beren was not? They both had a choice whether to keep their oaths or abandon them. Sometimes as Tolkien shows as with Beregond.

If I remember correctly Luthien escaped from the dungeon and went off to save Beren. People sacrifice and are sacrificed everyday for much less than love. Personally if you are going to sacrifice yourself then 'love' is a much better reason than gold or land. Nor is it a problem when those that love you join in the quest. It seems we will never be in agreement about this.

[Mithalwen]

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

Finrod had a choice whether to break his oath or stick by it. The same as Belegrond did. Finrod made the choice to keep his oath.

Beren did not need to fulfill his oath to gain any benefit for himself. Luthien had already declared that she would stick with him no matter what.

'But on either road I will go with you, and our doom shall be alike.'

Fulfilling his oath gave Beren nothing, but he felt compelled as an honourable man to try and fulfill his oath or die in the attempt.

Beren too tried to protect Luthien from the dangers of Morgoth and left her.

'Then Beren being torn between his oath and his love, and knowing Luthien to be now safe, arose one morning before the sun, and committed her to the care of Huan; then in great anguish he departed whilst she still slept on the grass.'

Beren gives up having a life with Luthien, his love, to try and fulfill the oath though he is almost certain to die. He is not doing this for anything he can gain, but to be a man of his word.

'Thrice now I curse my oath to Thingol' he said ' And I would rather that he had slain me in Menegorth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth'.

If you have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love then why do you have a problem with Finrod's companions doing the same thing or even Finrod.

Beren and Luthien never forced anyone to die for them. People helped them, because they loved them. Huan and Finrod and the other elves. However, you would call them idiotic.