Frodo's change from book to film

[Nerwen]

I'm sure there are some scenes where MF shows some spine. Any examples?

There's the Council of Elrond scene, where everyone starts squabbling and he tells them to shut up.

- Incidentally, that scene is a pretty efficient bit of adaptation, considering how dialogue- and exposition-heavy the original is at that point. I mean, I don't know what's happened to the writers- these days they would have practically given it its own movie.

[Nerwen]

However–

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I am trying to understand why the people on this forum seem to dislike Woods performance and am putting forward hypothetical reasons why. The 'characters actions or dialogue' and his acting are one and the same thing.

I don’t know what to say to this, except that– well, no they’re not. I mean unless you know for a fact that Wood himself wrote and directed every scene he was in? (For the record, I do actually think his performance was *part* of the problem.)

I am saying perhaps Wood has been misjudged by not 'looking' like people imagined Frodo from the books, and perhaps he has 'acted' in a manner unlike imagined from the books, but that is down to personal taste more than any serious flaws or deviations from the original. The message is the same even if the messenger is speaking in an unfamiliar accent. I dont think they did Frodo a disservice by making him gentler, I think it made him more interesting, but thats my personal opinion.

This… is another sticking point. Maybe we all need to define what we mean by words like “weak” or “gentle”, and also make it clearer what we're talking about. For you, I gather, the focus is on the presence or absence of "one or two ineffectual swipes at Ringwraiths” the lack of which makes Movie Frodo “gentler” in your eyes, and (you assume) “weak” in other peoples’. Also, you keep saying we’re just prejudiced against Wood’s personal appearance.

And yet, here is the actual list of complaints:

• The “Go home, Sam” scene
• General lack of initiative
• Powerlessness against the Ring
• Deviousness
• Lack of humour
• Whining
• Swooning
• And yes, finally, failure to defy the Ringwraiths at Weathetop and the Ford.

Now, obviously you don’t agree with any of this, and that’s fine. However, if you are indeed “trying to understand” other people’s reactions, I think you need to take more note of what they actually are.

[Morthoron]

There were any number of character assassinations in the movies, why should Frodo be any different? However, if you look at bitter "Arwen is dying" Elrond, maniacal and ignoble Denethor, and particularly "Show my quality" Faramir, I think they got an even rawer deal from the spurious script. The characters are Bizzaro World versions of Middle-earth characters.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

However–

I don’t know what to say to this, except that– well, no they’re not. I mean unless you know for a fact that Wood himself wrote and directed every scene he was in? (For the record, I do actually think his performance was *part* of the problem.)


This… is another sticking point. Maybe we all need to define what we mean by words like “weak” or “gentle”, and also make it clearer what we're talking about. For you, I gather, the focus is on the presence or absence of "one or two ineffectual swipes at Ringwraiths” the lack of which makes Movie Frodo “gentler” in your eyes, and (you assume) “weak” in other peoples’. Also, you keep saying we’re just prejudiced against Wood’s personal appearance.

And yet, here is the actual list of complaints:

• The “Go home, Sam” scene
• General lack of initiative
• Powerlessness against the Ring
• Deviousness
• Lack of humour
• Whining
• Swooning
• And yes, finally, failure to defy the Ringwraiths at Weathetop and the Ford.

Now, obviously you don’t agree with any of this, and that’s fine. However, if you are indeed “trying to understand” other people’s reactions, I think you need to take more note of what they actually are.

the ''go home Sam'' scene makes him look more aggressive than he was in the book, so thats a bad example if you are saying it makes him look weak.
''general lack of initiative'' wrong again. After escaping Boromir Frodo decides to take the boat and go to Mordor alone without Sam, he also saves Sam from drowning. This shows great courage and initiative. you really need better examples of frodos weakness because I dont get it.
''powerlessness against the Ring'' thats a given, in the book or the films, its part of being a Ring bearer.
''whining'' this is more prejudice based on dislike of Woods performance rather than reality. Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.
''swooning'' more prejudice, any so called 'feminine' behaviour like swooning is immediately ridiculed, like swooning from lack of food or exhaustion is somehow ridiculous.
this list of complaints are a bit flimsy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.

Not as much as I while watching Wood's portrayal.

To me, 'book' Frodo does come across as patiently enduring mental and physical anguish. Film version always seemed to me to have a harassed and fretful air about him, as if to let the viewer know he was just carrying the Ring because he'd been bullied into it. And I just don't see book-Frodo's sense of humor displayed. Wood can't seem to forget about the Ring's terrible burden for an instant, even if Frodo in the book does on occasion.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not as much as I while watching Wood's portrayal.

Film version always seemed to me to have a harassed and fretful air about him, as if to let the viewer know he was just carrying the Ring because he'd been bullied into it. .

erm thats called acting.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

erm thats called acting.

Well, he's not acting like Frodo. And that's what he was paid (handsomely) to do.

[Nerwen]

Can we just remember that this is the sort of topic on which nobody is ultimately "right" or "wrong"? Some people like Movie Frodo; some people don't, and it's unlikely that either side is going to convince the other.

With that in mind-

FerniesApple, my intention in making that list was not to "prove" that you're somehow wrong to prefer the film version of the character- because how can you be? I merely wanted to suggest that, since you *were* choosing to argue against the opposing view, it might be well to acknowledge that there had in fact been more than one point of criticism.

One thing I see confirmed here is that we are indeed defining terms differently. For me, the "go home" scene *is* an example of "weakness" in the sense of poor judgement and petulant self-indulgence. Now, of course you don't agree with this assessment, which, again, I'm perfectly okay with. The point is that we are *not* all making a simple equation of aggression with strength or gentleness with weakness, which is what you seem to assume.

On that note, will you *kindly* refrain from these accusations of "prejudice"? Apart from the fact that it's not even close to being a valid argument, I feel it's really raising the temperature of this discussion. Which, again, is about whether people like or don't like a film character- not exactly a matter of world-shaking importance.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

the ''go home Sam'' scene makes him look more aggressive than he was in the book, so thats a bad example if you are saying it makes him look weak.

My issue with that scene is that it makes no sense, but that's for another thread.

''general lack of initiative'' wrong again. After escaping Boromir Frodo decides to take the boat and go to Mordor alone without Sam, he also saves Sam from drowning. This shows great courage and initiative. you really need better examples of frodos weakness because I dont get it.

Okay. You show one example where I think we'd all agree that Frodo took action. What of the other scenes (plural) where he doesn't? You may not agree, but I see more scenes where Frodo's more 'along for the ride' than taking the reins in his own hands.

He did jump on the ferry boat on the way to Bree - forgot that one.

''powerlessness against the Ring'' thats a given, in the book or the films, its part of being a Ring bearer.

Agreed.

''whining'' this is more prejudice based on dislike of Woods performance rather than reality. Frodo doesnt whine, he suffers.

Maybe you see it that way. I don't. To me, 'whining' is when the person could take some action (other than vocalizing) that could change his/her state, but doesn't. This action typically would not take much effort. But there is zero effort and much vocalization, and so...whining.

Note that I did not mention a specific actor. Don't care if it's Wood, McKellen or Otto - whining's whining.

''swooning'' more prejudice, any so called 'feminine' behaviour like swooning is immediately ridiculed, like swooning from lack of food or exhaustion is somehow ridiculous.

In the scene I described Frodo swoons/faints/crumbles/folds/wilts/gets a case of the vapours/etc when the light of Sauron's Eye (ugh!) hits him. So, regardless of his physical state, it's the light that pushes him over some threshold.

It just looks seriously silly, as it's slightly slowed down as if it's something interesting and not sad.

this list of complaints are a bit flimsy.

Note that the thinnest lembas has two sides.