Isengard- Help Wanted!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Or it could mean that any communication was before Saruman had wronged Théoden, first by the wiles of Grima and then by the military assaults in which we know from Unfinished Tales that Théodred was specifically targeted. If Theodred, Eomer and Elfhelm hadn't taken matters into their own hands Rohan would probably have been in the hands of Saruman before Gandalf and co could intervene.

The problem with that interpretation is that Saruman himself speaks along the lines of Théoden.

'But you, Théoden Lord of the Mark of Rohan, are declared by your noble devices, and still more by the fair countenance of the House of Eorl. O worthy son of Thengel the Thrice-renowned! Why have you not come before, and as a friend? Much have I desired to see you, mightiest king of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you!'

TTT The Voice of Saruman

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

I agree, I've always thought that Saruman had never met Théoden before.

I think the most likely situation is that which Legate mentioned - there were probably occasionally messages between Isengard and Edoras on this matter or that. I imagine them typically being initiated by Saruman when there was some situation in which it would be advantageous for him if Rohan was to do one thing or another. He would of course always phrase these messages as if it was in Rohan's best interest as well.

If Saruman had "long ago" offered Théoden a state beyond his "merit" and "wit" is it possible that perhaps at some point early in Théoden's reign, when Saruman was making more tentative steps towards becoming a Power, he sent such a message to Théoden? Saruman began to fortify Isengard in 2953 but didn't start communicating with Sauron until 3000, while Théoden became King of the Mark in 2980. It seems to fit rather neatly, although Appendix A states that Saruman's "designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil" even that early. Perhaps to an extent he hid them from himself as well.

Note that Thengel had been an ally of "Thorongil" and therefore would probably, like Ecthelion II, have been encouraged to trust in Gandalf rather than Saruman. Thorongil-Aragorn stopped adventuring in 2980 and presumably returned to the North, so he would not have been available to give the same counsel to Théoden, but it's possible that Thengel passed the advice on to his son at some point before his death.

It's possible that Saruman sent a message to Théoden proposing a more serious military alliance which Théoden refused, which caused Saruman to eventually resort to using Wormtongue to corrupt the will of the King. The Tolkien Gateway gives 3014 as the date when Théoden's health began to fail but I can't find that in the Appendices, can anyone confirm or deny that?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

It really makes it sound it's more likely that way. But anyway, I would actually still disagree about dismissing it altogether, it does not really make it so that Saruman had never spoken to Théoden. Yes, "especially in these latter years" obviously implies that there had been also some earlier years during which Saruman had not seen Théoden, but there is no low-end limit to his proclamation. Saruman may be speaking, assumingly, in the context of last decade, last twenty years, or whatever. Actually - okay, this is fairly random idea, but now that it has occured to me - Saruman's presumed offer of "state beyond Théoden's merit" might have come even before his coronation. I know it's far-fetched, but nothing rules it out as a possibility: actually Zigur's mention of Thorongil brought this to my mind, and I acknowledge it'd be a terrible conspiracy theory, but what if there was even something like an offer from Saruman to young Théoden "Hello young prince, let's get rid of your father, banish those weird foreign Thorongils and Gandalfs and instead listen to me, and I will help you to ascend to the throne as the most brilliant and promising young king of Rohan"? (Of course, much more subtly delivered, but it wouldn't be impossible, would it? A typical plot we know from our world history, a foreign power helping the heir to the throne to ascend prematurely in exchange for shift of the country's foreign policy).

Not that I'd personally hold the opinion, but I like that idea.

As to the other possibility, that Saruman did actually never speak to Théoden in person, in that case I would think the offer would likely be something along the lines of the diplomatic note, like I mentioned, and possibly aiming towards the wording "let's team up, I will make you more powerful than Gondor, you can rule as far as Anduin Vales where your ancestors used to live (and you can then help me assure nobody but me searches the Anduin Vales in case certain Ring is still somewhere there, as a bonus)", possibly even: "hint hint, under me you could become the ruler of a great empire including former Gondor, for who needs Gondor?" Or something similar.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It seems to fit rather neatly, although Appendix A states that Saruman's "designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil" even that early. Perhaps to an extent he hid them from himself as well.

Either that, or "evil" can be used broadly here, because if you want to establish alliance with Rohan, but effectively make it your puppet state and use it only as a weapon for your wars, then it certainly isn't "good" design.

[Mithalwen]

Not isn't the same as never though. It is still ambiguous. But I don't have enough access to texts to look further.

[Boromir88]

I'll have to go and look at the related chapters, although I can't recall any mention of Saruman making a direct offer to Théoden. I agree with the others though who said, Théoden's desire to "speak" to the enemy isn't a direct indication that he never did so either.

It could be Théoden didn't think of Saruman as "the enemy" before when Saruman made his offer. Saruman is talking about some vague time "long ago" and Théoden would have only seen Saruman as an enemy after Gandalf came and revealed Saruman's evil. I guess what I'm getting at is, Saruman talks about a time "long ago" but Saruman was only revealed as "the enemy" only a short time ago, when Gandalf & co. came to Edoras (even though I'm sure Théoden figured out Saruman had been playing him false for a long time).

We know some details about the fall and demise of Saruman, but not much when he switched from being friendly and fair, to actively trying to take control of Rohan and over the region. If I remember correctly, there is a mention that during Thengel's reign Saruman started giving trouble to Rohan:

It was soon after Thengel's return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard began to give trouble ot Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies. ~Appendix A: The Kings of the Mark

I don't think at this point Saruman's intentions and treachery would have been known, it's just a factual statement that he begins making trouble for Rohan during Thengel's reign. Unfinished Tales makes clear Eomer and Theodred did not trust Saruman, which is why he arguably spends way too much effort and resources on sundering them from Théoden (and trying to kill them) and putting Grima forward as Théoden's trusted counselor.

I do think it more likely that Grima would have been the one (under orders from Saruman) to deliver Saruman's offer to Théoden, than Saruman making the offer to Théoden in person. It can be assumed Grima would travel between Isengard and Edoras (in UT: Hunt for the Ring there is a mention of the Witch-King intercepting Grima on one occasion when he was going between the two places. Although, I can't speak about the canonicity of this part). From Saruman's perspective, it would have been an offer proposed by him (he wasn't one to credit Grima for anything, except for killing and eating Lotho). And in Théoden's perspective, he blamed Saruman more for the wrongs done to him than Grima. Théoden looked at Grima more mercifully and trying to absolve Grima of most of the blame. Théoden placed the blame solely on "the enemy," Saruman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't think at this point Saruman's intentions and treachery would have been known, it's just a factual statement that he begins making trouble for Rohan during Thengel's reign. Unfinished Tales makes clear Eomer and Theodred did not trust Saruman, which is why he arguably spends way too much effort and resources on sundering them from Théoden (and trying to kill them) and putting Grima forward as Théoden's trusted counselor.

That all sounds fairly plausible to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

I do think it more likely that Grima would have been the one (under orders from Saruman) to deliver Saruman's offer to Théoden, than Saruman making the offer to Théoden in person. It can be assumed Grima would travel between Isengard and Edoras (in UT: Hunt for the Ring there is a mention of the Witch-King intercepting Grima on one occasion when he was going between the two places. Although, I can't speak about the canonicity of this part). From Saruman's perspective, it would have been an offer proposed by him (he wasn't one to credit Grima for anything, except for killing and eating Lotho). And in Théoden's perspective, he blamed Saruman more for the wrongs done to him than Grima. Théoden looked at Grima more mercifully and trying to absolve Grima of most of the blame. Théoden placed the blame solely on "the enemy," Saruman.

Possible; although I would have several "buts" to it. First, I am pretty sure Gríma did not just randomly walk between Isengard and Edoras, certainly not officially (otherwise he'd be so suspicious, even if he'd used to do it only before Saruman openly became the enemy! And Gandalf proclaims his revelation that Saruman has bought Wormtongue as a big thing and it seems to e.g. dawn upon Éomer only in that moment), I always imagined it the way that Gríma sneakily traveled to Isengard from time to time when he was on a "holiday" or somesuch ("sir, I'm going to take a week off, I have to visit my old grandmother in the Westfold"). So there is no way he could deliver any official message in Saruman's name.

The way I imagine it, he could of course be told by Saruman something along the lines of "hint to the King that we might come to a mutually benefitial agreement" (but we know he'd been doing that until Saruman's treachery could no longer be concealed, and I don't think that that's what Saruman was talking about, because he seems to have something specific and big in mind).

But also, another question is for how long had Gríma been Théoden's counsellor. Saruman's offer could have also come before that (e.g. see my conspiracy theory above, previous post, end of the first paragraph). In any case, I would imagine the proposal to be actually a fairly open one - the way Saruman phrases it - or at least fairly openly proclaiming that it comes from Saruman himself. It might have been delivered by any means - a letter, any messenger other than Gríma - so it wouldn't really contradict anything regarding Théoden speaking or not speaking to Saruman before the fall of Isengard.

[Faramir Jones]

In Unfinished Tales, in the essay 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen', it is stated that Théoden's health 'began to fail...early in the year 3014', when he was 66. The narrator said that 'his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma'.

The narrator then goes on to say that Théoden's 'sense of weakness and dependence' on Gríma was 'largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions'.

It could perhaps be argued that Théoden's weakening from 3014 onwards was part of Saruman's long-term strategy to destroy Rohan. There is no indication, even among Eomer and Théodred, that Saruman was anything other than a neighbouring ally, if one who had declared his independence from Gondor. Only when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in September 3018 and began to alert people was it known that Saruman was an enemy.

We need to remember that in 2759 Saruman entered into Isengard with the premission of Ruling Steward Beren, who felt he would be suitable, being the head of the White Council opposed to Sauron. He was subject, if nominally, to Gondorian overlordship.

In LotR, in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond', Gandalf spoke about his discovery of the scroll written by Isildur, in the archives of Minas Tirith. He gave some background, saying that in 'former days' members of his order 'had been well received' in Gondor, 'but Saruman most of all....Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City'. Denethor II showed Gandalf 'Less welcome than of old', and 'grudgingly' permitted him to search among the archives.

Saruman therefore visited Minas Tirith in the past, and was a guest of the Stewards. Perhaps, in his journey to the City, he also called on the King of Rohan, as it would have been deeply impolite for him to have crossed Rohan without doing so. Perhaps he paid personal calls on any new Steward and King, in order to keep up his personal relationships with both states, and to reassure them of what he said he was doing.

The issue is whether he continued this when Denethor II succeeded as steward, and Théoden as king, which happened in 2984 and 2980 respectively. A few decades previously, in 2953, he took advantage of Sauron's return to Mordor to declare his independence. Such an act would have led to a cooling of relations between him and Gondor and Rohan, even though they could do nothing to stop it.

I don't consider it likely that he met Denethor and Théoden after 2953, although he may have sent messages to both to try and patch things up, perhaps after both had succeeded their respective fathers. Perhaps such a message to Théoden was the one referred to when he said to the latter: 'Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit'.