Isengard- Help Wanted!

[Zigûr]

We know how mendacious and manipulative Saruman was, so it seems possible in my opinion that the early "encroachments" upon Rohan and supporting of Rohan's enemies, which would presumably constitute the Dunlendings for the most part, were either done in an affectedly non-aggressive manner or that Saruman, despite claiming Isengard, did not claim responsibility for them. Perhaps they were done in secret. Appendix A is meant to have been written in the Fourth Age, is it not? So these actions might not have been recognised for what they were at the time. Certainly Saruman's treachery does not appear to have been common knowledge until after Gandalf escaped from Orthanc.

On the other hand perhaps Saruman presented these actions as simply being defensive measures which were, he may have claimed, in the best interests of the local area in general, "protecting his territory" (seizing land beyond his own borders) and "strengthening friendships/alliances/etc in the region" (giving materiel to the Dunlendings). He could easily have been telling the Rohirrim one thing and the Dunlendings another.

Thus I think it's possible that Saruman could be attacking Rohan and trying to forge an "alliance" with them simultaneously, if he was sufficiently crafty. Thus it could occur in Théoden's reign despite the fact that he'd already actually begun troubling Rohan by that point. Politics can be a very messy business, and Saruman is one of the most "political" characters in all of Professor Tolkien's work.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the other hand perhaps Saruman presented these actions as simply being defensive measures which were, he may have claimed, in the best interests of the local area in general, "protecting his territory" (seizing land beyond his own borders) and "strengthening friendships/alliances/etc in the region" (giving materiel to the Dunlendings). He could easily have been telling the Rohirrim one thing and the Dunlendings another.

Thus I think it's possible that Saruman could be attacking Rohan and trying to forge an "alliance" with them simultaneously, if he was sufficiently crafty. Thus it could occur in Théoden's reign despite the fact that he'd already actually begun troubling Rohan by that point. Politics can be a very messy business, and Saruman is one of the most "political" characters in all of Professor Tolkien's work.

I agree completely with you here about Saruman, Zigûr. I can certainly see him being like many a present-day politician, shaping his speeches to the audience he's talking to, without as many of the dangers of being 'found out'.

I also agree that Appendix A is written with the benefit of hindsight in the Fourth Age, other sources then being available to the authors, including what was found in Orthanc when King Elessar took it back for Gondor. In Unfinished Tales, we read that a search of the tower revealed, among other things, that Saruman possibly came across Isildur's bones in his search for the Ring.

[Boromir88]

While I agree with your suggestion, Boromir88, that Saruman may have made an offer to Théoden early in the latter's reign, I disagree that it might have been in the way you describe. For example, any offer would have excluded the slightest bit of anti-Gondorian sentiment. We have to remember that not only were Gondor and Rohan close allies; Théoden was half-Gondorian due to his mother, and was himself born in Gondor. Also, Théoden appears to have been a genuinely much loved monarch, which suggests that he was one of genuine ability, perhaps able to detect something 'not right' in Saruman's offer, without actually believing in his treachery.!Faramir Jones

Good point. I was thinking when Gandalf and company arrive in Edoras and Aragorn is asked to lay aside his sword at the door, there's tension because Aragorn refuses and says he's Elendil's heir in Gondor which trumps Théoden's rules. Hama saltily responds stating:

1. Aragorn's not King yet, because Denethor still sits on the throne in Gondor.
2. Even if he was, Rohan is autonomous, this is Théoden's land and Théoden's hall.

They were ready to fight over the incident, but Gandalf's cooler head prevails backing Hama, that a King will have his own way in his own hall. Thinking of that incident, I wondered if Saruman was trying to drive a wedge between Gondor and Rohan. It would certainly help him to break up their alliance with Gondor, but Boromir made clear at the Council the friendship between Gondor and Rohan was still very strong. The tension I was thinking about above was about Aragorn trying to press his claim, not about any rift between Gondor and Rohan.

I think it likely that Saruman would try to make it seem like Rohan was isolated from their Gondorian allies though. And in that way, with his offer he could press his own friendship. I agree there wouldn't be anti-Gondorian sentiment, but there would probably be a "You're isolated from your friends Théoden King, but I can help you."

I agree completely with you here about Saruman, Zigûr. I can certainly see him being like many a present-day politician, shaping his speeches to the audience he's talking to, without as many of the dangers of being 'found out'.~Faramir Jones

Absolutely and no doubt aided by his skillful voice. A long time ago I put together an argument that Saruman was the greatest liar in Middle-earth (maybe even better than Sauron). He had everyone fooled for a long time. At the Council, Elrond was distressed because Saruman was deep in their councils. Gandalf showed some concern, but he admits going to Isengard without fearing any trap or any inkling that Saruman had turned traitor. We see he's able to manipulate both Dunlanders and the Rohirrim (excluding Eomer and Theodred). He spent time in Minas Tirith and was favored over Gandalf by some of the Stewards. But as Gandalf said, every spider leaves a weak thread:

"Gandalf the Grey caught like a fliy in a spider's treacherous web! Yet even the most subtle spiders may leave a weak thread.
[...]
"That was the undoing of Saruman's plot. For Radagast knew no reason why he should not do as I asked; and he rode away towards Mirkwood where he had many friends of old."~The Council of Elrond

Saruman's weak thread was while he hid his intentions from Radagast and tricked him, Radagast wasn't evil, leading to Gandalf's escape. Then Gandalf has to go and blab to everyone. The only person that Saruman seems to have never been able to fool is Galadriel (as it was Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council). Which isn't too surprising, since Galadriel is superb at getting inside everyone's heads and reading hearts. I suppose he wasn't fooling Theodred and Eomer either, but they were on the front lines as you could say and witnessed Saruman's treachery. With Théoden under his control, and as the UT notes, Théoden centralized power and issued all commands to his house and marshals through Grima. Eomer and Theodred were more thorns to be picked out...not anyone that was going to seriously threaten breaking his web of lies.

[Faramir Jones]

In terms of Aragorn's initial refusal to lay aside his sword when requested by Hama, I have always been on the latter's side for the reasons he gave. The point of the Oath of Eorl, as envisaged by Ruling Steward Cirion, was that Eorl and his people would be given Gondorian land in 'free gift', with the freedom to have their own laws and customs, and their own rulers, the alliance with Gondor being the only constraint on them. But that constraint would be the same on Gondor and its people.

In terms of what you think Saruman might have said to Théoden, Boromir88:

I think it likely that Saruman would try to make it seem like Rohan was isolated from their Gondorian allies though. And in that way, with his offer he could press his own friendship. I agree there wouldn't be anti-Gondorian sentiment, but there would probably be a "You're isolated from your friends Théoden King, but I can help you."

I think he might have phrased it that it would be quicker for him to aid Rohan, with aid from Gondor taking longer. He would certainly not have suggested that the Gondorians wouldn't keep their word, because they had a record of doing so.

I was amused, like yourself, by the fact that Gandalf was rescued due to Saruman hiding his intentions from Radagast. I agree that Saruman was unable to completely fool Galadriel, who sensed something was 'not right' in his makeup; but he was still able to fool her into believing that he was an ally, as he had with others (except Gandalf), until September 3018.