Isengard- Help Wanted!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

It really makes it sound it's more likely that way. But anyway, I would actually still disagree about dismissing it altogether, it does not really make it so that Saruman had never spoken to Théoden. Yes, "especially in these latter years" obviously implies that there had been also some earlier years during which Saruman had not seen Théoden, but there is no low-end limit to his proclamation. Saruman may be speaking, assumingly, in the context of last decade, last twenty years, or whatever. Actually - okay, this is fairly random idea, but now that it has occured to me - Saruman's presumed offer of "state beyond Théoden's merit" might have come even before his coronation. I know it's far-fetched, but nothing rules it out as a possibility: actually Zigur's mention of Thorongil brought this to my mind, and I acknowledge it'd be a terrible conspiracy theory, but what if there was even something like an offer from Saruman to young Théoden "Hello young prince, let's get rid of your father, banish those weird foreign Thorongils and Gandalfs and instead listen to me, and I will help you to ascend to the throne as the most brilliant and promising young king of Rohan"? (Of course, much more subtly delivered, but it wouldn't be impossible, would it? A typical plot we know from our world history, a foreign power helping the heir to the throne to ascend prematurely in exchange for shift of the country's foreign policy).

Not that I'd personally hold the opinion, but I like that idea.

As to the other possibility, that Saruman did actually never speak to Théoden in person, in that case I would think the offer would likely be something along the lines of the diplomatic note, like I mentioned, and possibly aiming towards the wording "let's team up, I will make you more powerful than Gondor, you can rule as far as Anduin Vales where your ancestors used to live (and you can then help me assure nobody but me searches the Anduin Vales in case certain Ring is still somewhere there, as a bonus)", possibly even: "hint hint, under me you could become the ruler of a great empire including former Gondor, for who needs Gondor?" Or something similar.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It seems to fit rather neatly, although Appendix A states that Saruman's "designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil" even that early. Perhaps to an extent he hid them from himself as well.

Either that, or "evil" can be used broadly here, because if you want to establish alliance with Rohan, but effectively make it your puppet state and use it only as a weapon for your wars, then it certainly isn't "good" design.

[Mithalwen]

Not isn't the same as never though. It is still ambiguous. But I don't have enough access to texts to look further.

[Boromir88]

I'll have to go and look at the related chapters, although I can't recall any mention of Saruman making a direct offer to Théoden. I agree with the others though who said, Théoden's desire to "speak" to the enemy isn't a direct indication that he never did so either.

It could be Théoden didn't think of Saruman as "the enemy" before when Saruman made his offer. Saruman is talking about some vague time "long ago" and Théoden would have only seen Saruman as an enemy after Gandalf came and revealed Saruman's evil. I guess what I'm getting at is, Saruman talks about a time "long ago" but Saruman was only revealed as "the enemy" only a short time ago, when Gandalf & co. came to Edoras (even though I'm sure Théoden figured out Saruman had been playing him false for a long time).

We know some details about the fall and demise of Saruman, but not much when he switched from being friendly and fair, to actively trying to take control of Rohan and over the region. If I remember correctly, there is a mention that during Thengel's reign Saruman started giving trouble to Rohan:

It was soon after Thengel's return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard began to give trouble ot Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies. ~Appendix A: The Kings of the Mark

I don't think at this point Saruman's intentions and treachery would have been known, it's just a factual statement that he begins making trouble for Rohan during Thengel's reign. Unfinished Tales makes clear Eomer and Theodred did not trust Saruman, which is why he arguably spends way too much effort and resources on sundering them from Théoden (and trying to kill them) and putting Grima forward as Théoden's trusted counselor.

I do think it more likely that Grima would have been the one (under orders from Saruman) to deliver Saruman's offer to Théoden, than Saruman making the offer to Théoden in person. It can be assumed Grima would travel between Isengard and Edoras (in UT: Hunt for the Ring there is a mention of the Witch-King intercepting Grima on one occasion when he was going between the two places. Although, I can't speak about the canonicity of this part). From Saruman's perspective, it would have been an offer proposed by him (he wasn't one to credit Grima for anything, except for killing and eating Lotho). And in Théoden's perspective, he blamed Saruman more for the wrongs done to him than Grima. Théoden looked at Grima more mercifully and trying to absolve Grima of most of the blame. Théoden placed the blame solely on "the enemy," Saruman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't think at this point Saruman's intentions and treachery would have been known, it's just a factual statement that he begins making trouble for Rohan during Thengel's reign. Unfinished Tales makes clear Eomer and Theodred did not trust Saruman, which is why he arguably spends way too much effort and resources on sundering them from Théoden (and trying to kill them) and putting Grima forward as Théoden's trusted counselor.

That all sounds fairly plausible to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

I do think it more likely that Grima would have been the one (under orders from Saruman) to deliver Saruman's offer to Théoden, than Saruman making the offer to Théoden in person. It can be assumed Grima would travel between Isengard and Edoras (in UT: Hunt for the Ring there is a mention of the Witch-King intercepting Grima on one occasion when he was going between the two places. Although, I can't speak about the canonicity of this part). From Saruman's perspective, it would have been an offer proposed by him (he wasn't one to credit Grima for anything, except for killing and eating Lotho). And in Théoden's perspective, he blamed Saruman more for the wrongs done to him than Grima. Théoden looked at Grima more mercifully and trying to absolve Grima of most of the blame. Théoden placed the blame solely on "the enemy," Saruman.

Possible; although I would have several "buts" to it. First, I am pretty sure Gríma did not just randomly walk between Isengard and Edoras, certainly not officially (otherwise he'd be so suspicious, even if he'd used to do it only before Saruman openly became the enemy! And Gandalf proclaims his revelation that Saruman has bought Wormtongue as a big thing and it seems to e.g. dawn upon Éomer only in that moment), I always imagined it the way that Gríma sneakily traveled to Isengard from time to time when he was on a "holiday" or somesuch ("sir, I'm going to take a week off, I have to visit my old grandmother in the Westfold"). So there is no way he could deliver any official message in Saruman's name.

The way I imagine it, he could of course be told by Saruman something along the lines of "hint to the King that we might come to a mutually benefitial agreement" (but we know he'd been doing that until Saruman's treachery could no longer be concealed, and I don't think that that's what Saruman was talking about, because he seems to have something specific and big in mind).

But also, another question is for how long had Gríma been Théoden's counsellor. Saruman's offer could have also come before that (e.g. see my conspiracy theory above, previous post, end of the first paragraph). In any case, I would imagine the proposal to be actually a fairly open one - the way Saruman phrases it - or at least fairly openly proclaiming that it comes from Saruman himself. It might have been delivered by any means - a letter, any messenger other than Gríma - so it wouldn't really contradict anything regarding Théoden speaking or not speaking to Saruman before the fall of Isengard.

[Faramir Jones]

In Unfinished Tales, in the essay 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen', it is stated that Théoden's health 'began to fail...early in the year 3014', when he was 66. The narrator said that 'his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma'.

The narrator then goes on to say that Théoden's 'sense of weakness and dependence' on Gríma was 'largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions'.

It could perhaps be argued that Théoden's weakening from 3014 onwards was part of Saruman's long-term strategy to destroy Rohan. There is no indication, even among Eomer and Théodred, that Saruman was anything other than a neighbouring ally, if one who had declared his independence from Gondor. Only when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in September 3018 and began to alert people was it known that Saruman was an enemy.

We need to remember that in 2759 Saruman entered into Isengard with the premission of Ruling Steward Beren, who felt he would be suitable, being the head of the White Council opposed to Sauron. He was subject, if nominally, to Gondorian overlordship.

In LotR, in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond', Gandalf spoke about his discovery of the scroll written by Isildur, in the archives of Minas Tirith. He gave some background, saying that in 'former days' members of his order 'had been well received' in Gondor, 'but Saruman most of all....Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City'. Denethor II showed Gandalf 'Less welcome than of old', and 'grudgingly' permitted him to search among the archives.

Saruman therefore visited Minas Tirith in the past, and was a guest of the Stewards. Perhaps, in his journey to the City, he also called on the King of Rohan, as it would have been deeply impolite for him to have crossed Rohan without doing so. Perhaps he paid personal calls on any new Steward and King, in order to keep up his personal relationships with both states, and to reassure them of what he said he was doing.

The issue is whether he continued this when Denethor II succeeded as steward, and Théoden as king, which happened in 2984 and 2980 respectively. A few decades previously, in 2953, he took advantage of Sauron's return to Mordor to declare his independence. Such an act would have led to a cooling of relations between him and Gondor and Rohan, even though they could do nothing to stop it.

I don't consider it likely that he met Denethor and Théoden after 2953, although he may have sent messages to both to try and patch things up, perhaps after both had succeeded their respective fathers. Perhaps such a message to Théoden was the one referred to when he said to the latter: 'Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit'.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In Unfinished Tales, in the essay 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen', it is stated that Théoden's health 'began to fail...early in the year 3014', when he was 66.

Thanks for that. I should have guessed it would be there.

In regards to Denethor and Saruman's relations with Gondor late in the Third Age Unfinished Tales contains the following remark regarding Denethor's use of the Anor-stone:
"Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself." Note that when Gandalf and Pippin arrived at Minas Tirith, Denethor already knew that Saruman had been defeated: "I know already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel against the menace of the East." On a related note, Thorongil had warned Ecthelion II "not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard."

This suggests to me that there was probably still some kind of established relationship between Gondor and Saruman during the stewardship of Ecthelion despite Saruman claiming Isengard for his own. Perhaps the rising threat of Mordor caused Gondor to become increasingly unconcerned with goings-on in the West. Denethor certainly seems to have considered Saruman's downfall to be only relevant insofar as it affected his struggle (one Denethor seems to have regarded rather personally) against Sauron.

Perhaps Saruman was in a position to communicate with Gondor and Rohan early in the periods of Denethor and Théoden but such a relationship failed or ceased to be taken advantage of relatively quickly.

[Boromir88]

Possible; although I would have several "buts" to it. First, I am pretty sure Gríma did not just randomly walk between Isengard and Edoras, certainly not officially (otherwise he'd be so suspicious, even if he'd used to do it only before Saruman openly became the enemy! And Gandalf proclaims his revelation that Saruman has bought Wormtongue as a big thing and it seems to e.g. dawn upon Éomer only in that moment), I always imagined it the way that Gríma sneakily traveled to Isengard from time to time when he was on a "holiday" or somesuch ("sir, I'm going to take a week off, I have to visit my old grandmother in the Westfold"). So there is no way he could deliver any official message in Saruman's name.~Legate

Your "buts" sound more likely than Grima bringing Saruman's "offer" to Théoden. Grima's deception was more a work of a subtle counselor, not acting as an emissary of Saruman. I think when Théoden's health begins failing, and Grima gets a stronger grip over him (as Faramir Jones points out the UT says this was in TA 3014), Grima may have been bolder in outwardly supporting Saruman, but as far as making Saruman's initial offer "long ago," I think you're right, it wouldn't have come from Grima.

Let's try to put together a timeline. We know Saruman is given the keys to Orthanc and runs Isengard during the Steward, Beren's, and King Frealaf's reign:

It can thus be readily understood that when Saruman offered to take command of Isengard and repair it and reorder it as part of the defenses of the West he was welcomed both by King Frealaf and by Beren the Steward. So when Saruman took up his abode in Isengard, and Beren gave him the keys of Orthanc, the Rohirrim returned to their policy of guarding the Fords of Isen, as the most vulnerable point in their western frontier.~UT: The Battles of the Ford of Isen (Appendix)

And the timeline in the Lord of the Rings notes specifically it was 2759 that Saruman was given the keys to Orthanc. Rohan was having a lot of trouble with Dunlendings. Isengard was under control of Gondor, but Gondor didn't pay too much attention to it, leaving Isengard in control of a hereditary Lord. It's noted those lords became more and more mixed with the Dunlendings and were more sympathetic to them, perceiving the Rohirrim as the aggressive invaders. Isengard and Aglarond are key forts to the defenses of both Rohan and Eriador. This was figured out when Dunlendings took control of Isengard (TA 2710) and it wasn't until the Long Winter (TA 2758-59) they were "starved out and captitulated to Frealaf" (ibid)

There can be little doubt that Saruman made his offer in good faith, or at least with good will towards the defense of the West, so long as he himself remained the chief person in that defense, and the head of its council. He was wise, and perceived clearly that Isengard with its position and its strength, natural and by craft, was of utmost importance. The line of the Isen, between the pincers of Isengard and the Hornburg, was a bulwark against invasion from the East (whether incited and guided by Sauron, or otherwise), either aiming at encircling Gondor or at invading Eriador. But in the end he turned to evil and became an enemy; and yet the Rohirrim, though they had warnings of his growing malice towards them, continued to put their main strength in the west at the Fords, until Saruman in open war showed them that the Fords were small protection without Isengard and still less against it.~ibid

A couple important things from this. Isengard's strategic importance to either invading Eriador, or invading Rohan and encircling Gondor. And I found it interesting that Saruman initially offered (in good faith) to take Isengard for the defense of the West "so long as he himself remained the chief person in that defense, and the head of its council." Anyway, with Saruman in Isengard by the year 2759, the Rohirrim believed they had a trusted ally that would not allow the Dunlending invasions into Rohan again. So they withdrew and went back to focusing on defending the Fords and Aglarond.

In TA 2851:

The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.~Lord of the Rings: Appendix B

This I believe would have been under King Folca's reign. Rohan was finally recovering their strength. Saruman begins to perhaps have plans that aren't entirely in "good faith towards the defenses of the West," but since he was able to overrule Gandalf at the Council, I'd say he would still feel the "chief person" at this time and thus wouldn't have ill-will towards Rohan...yet.

TA 2953:

Last meetings of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdwards to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing~ibid

This would have been right at the beginning of King Thengel's reign, which as quoted in an earlier post it's said Saruman began giving trouble to Rohan. I agree with Faramir Jones that at this point when Saruman declares himself Lord of Isengard and fortifies it, he wouldn't have been travelling out of Isengard (or very far from it).

Fengel wasn't a well liked King, which is why Thengel left and went to Gondor, married a woman of Gondor and the Rohirrim basically begged Thengel to come back and be their king as Fengel's only male heir when Fengel died. It's said under Thengel in Kings of the Mark he did so "unwillingly" but still proved to be a good and wise King. I'm not sure if the political situation in Rohan is described too much during this time, but it's right around the time that Saruman has turned traitor (even though this isn't known until much later). In 2953, Théoden would have only been 5, but it wouldn't surprise me if Saruman started devising plans to destabilize Rohan politically at this time. Fengel wasn't a good king, Thengel unwillingly returned. Théoden was his only male heir and in his youth this is what's said of Théoden:

In the days of Théoden there was no man appointed to the office of First Marshal. He came to the throne as a young man (at the age of thirty-two), vigorous and of martial spirit, and a great horseman. If war came, he would himself command the Muster of Edoras; but his kingdom was at peace for many years, and he rode with his knights and his Muster only on exercises and in displays; though the shadow of Mordor reawakened grew ever greater from his childhood to his old age...When Théoden became, as it seemed, prematurely old, this situation continued, and there was no effective central command: a state of affairs encouraged by his counselor Grima. The King, becoming decrepit and seldom leaving his house, fell into the habit of issuing orders to Hama, Captain of his Household, to Elfhelm, and even to the Marshals of the Mark, by the mouth of Grima Wormtongue. This was resented, but the orders were obeyed, within Edoras.~Battles of the Fords of Isen (Appendix)

I might not have needed to go through all of this, but I was trying to put together a timeline of when Saruman was given control of Isengard, when he turned traitor, and how this fit with the politics in Rohan. There is a time here, from Fengel's reign to Théoden, where it doesn't look like Rohan is politically stabile, and is weakened, which Saruman tried to capitalize on and completely destabilize Rohan by the events in the Lord of the Rings.

And Théoden becoming King at a young age (32) to his noticeably failing health (66) gives Saruman 34 years (possibly even longer, before Théoden was King) to try to make an offer to the young Marshal (or King) that Legate talks about. Théoden in his youth was a "vigorous and martial" spirit, and he was Thengel's only male heir. I can see Saruman "long ago" making an offer to the young King about an alliance. In an effort to either win over the Rohirrim to his side, or having failed that, destabilize Rohan by using Grima.

Ah well...now that I've finally gotten to the Voice of Saruman chapter:

"But come now," said the soft voice. "Two at least of you I know by name. Gandalf I know too well to have much hope that he seeks help or counsel here. But you, Théoden Lord of the Mark of Rohan, are declared by your noble devices, and still more by the fair countenance of the House of Eorl. O worthy son of Thengel the Thrice-renowned. Why have you not come before, and as a friend? Much have I desired to see you, mightiest king of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you! Is it yet too late? Despite the injuries that have been done to me, in which the men of Rohan, alas! have had some part, still I would save you, and deliver you from the ruin that draws nigh inevitably, if you ride upon this road which you have taken. Indeed I alone can aid you now."~The Voice of Saruman

Bolding for my emphasis. So, it's at least clear from both Saruman's words and Théoden's that the two never met face-to-face before (although, Saruman still could have sent a message or emissary with an offer). Then he says Théoden's road (side with Gandalf and aid Gondor) will lead to ruin, and an alliance with Saruman alone can save him.

Therefor, it wouldn't surprise me when Saruman started causing trouble to Rohan (beginning of Thengel's reign), even though if early on in Théoden's reign their appeared to be peace, to try to convince Théoden that history was repeating itself and Théoden needed an alliance with Saruman. I can see Saruman's offer he made "long ago" and he made again here, being something like: "I'm seeing the wild Dunlendings coming back and encroaching on your lands, as has happened before. A shadow is returning to Mordor and harassing Gondor again, you won't get any help from them. Besides in those earlier troubles they left Isengard in command of someone who was sympathetic and allowed the wildmen to invade. Fortunately, I'm in Isengard now and offer my friendship and help to handle the Dunlanders. You won't get aid from Gondor. I was placed in Isengard to be the commander in the defenses of the West, Gondor has been without a king for centuries, making you, Théoden, the mightiest King in the western lands. I have long foreseen this war and only friendship with me can save you."

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me when Saruman started causing trouble to Rohan (beginning of Thengel's reign), even though if early on in Théoden's reign their appeared to be peace, to try to convince Théoden that history was repeating itself and Théoden needed an alliance with Saruman. I can see Saruman's offer he made "long ago" and he made again here, being something like: "I'm seeing the wild Dunlendings coming back and encroaching on your lands, as has happened before. A shadow is returning to Mordor and harassing Gondor again, you won't get any help from them. Besides in those earlier troubles they left Isengard in command of someone who was sympathetic and allowed the wildmen to invade. Fortunately, I'm in Isengard now and offer my friendship and help to handle the Dunlanders. You won't get aid from Gondor. I was placed in Isengard to be the commander in the defenses of the West, Gondor has been without a king for centuries, making you, Théoden, the mightiest King in the western lands. I have long foreseen this war and only friendship with me can save you."

I was interested in what you had to say there, Boromir88. In terms of what Gandalf said to Théoden and others about Saruman in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall' (Book 2, Chapter VI), after Wormtongue's treachery was revealed and he was sent packing, we read this:

'How far back his treachery goes, who can guess?' said Gandalf. 'He was not always evil. Once I do not doubt that he was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he had plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue's task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went.'

I agree with Legate in that Wormtongue's real relationship with Saruman was kept secret by both, so him carrying any official messages from the latter would be out of the question. Any kind of relationship would have been seized upon by Théoden's son, nephew and others to accuse him of, at the very least, conflicting loyalties. Even at the end, when Wormtongue is banished, and comes back to an Isengard in ruins, he pretends to the Ents that he is still a counsellor to Théoden, with a message from him to Saruman, not knowing that Treebeard had been altered to his true status.

While I agree with your suggestion, Boromir88, that Saruman may have made an offer to Théoden early in the latter's reign, I disagree that it might have been in the way you describe. For example, any offer would have excluded the slightest bit of anti-Gondorian sentiment. We have to remember that not only were Gondor and Rohan close allies; Théoden was half-Gondorian due to his mother, and was himself born in Gondor. Also, Théoden appears to have been a genuinely much loved monarch, which suggests that he was one of genuine ability, perhaps able to detect something 'not right' in Saruman's offer, without actually believing in his treachery.

Saruman, like Sauron, was a Maia, a being who could afford to wait a long time; so perhaps he might have formulated, soon after the rejection of such an offer by Théoden, the idea of 'turning' someone like Wormtongue, giving him the appearance of having sufficient (and genuine) abilities to rise high in his king's eyes, at a later time when the king was older and any perception that he was 'not right' in making some decisions would be passed off as evidence of old age.