The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

But just because Denethor may have allowed Saruman access to the archives in Minas Tirith doesn't mean that he confided in him. He appears to be a man who kept his own counsel, who listened to people, then made his own decisions.

I don't think Denethor ever sought advice from Saruman, but my musing was on why that didn't occur to Denethor as an option, rather than sending his heir on a journey of hundreds of miles, alone, to an unfamiliar location, to see a Half-elf.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

What I found interesting was that Faramir, after meeting Frodo and Sam, said that he concluded, from what Gandalf had looked at in the archives concerning Isildur, that the latter had taken something from Sauron before his departure to the North, although he didn't think that it was the Ring until Sam put his foot in it. My opinion is that his father Denethor had come to the same conclusion.

Denethor was a sharp guy on his own, and I agree he likely put two and two together.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think Denethor ever sought advice from Saruman, but my musing was on why that didn't occur to Denethor as an option, rather than sending his heir on a journey of hundreds of miles, alone, to an unfamiliar location, to see a Half-elf.

We do know, however, that it's extremely likely that Denethor and Saruman encountered each other when using their respective palantíri, as stated in Unfinished Tales: "Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself." Obviously, however, that's not quite the same as them giving counsel to one another...

It might be possible, however, that Denethor knew by that point that Saruman's trustworthiness was compromised. Denethor became steward in 2984, and according to Unfinished Tales "it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power." Saruman started using the Orthanc-stone in approximately 3000. The subsequent seventeen years (before Boromir departed for the North) seem like ample opportunity for Denethor to have encounted Saruman and to have determined that he could no longer be trusted.

To support this, I would point out that Saruman had neither Denethor's advantage for using the stones (legitimate, albeit inherited, authority), nor Sauron's (sheer overwhelming power). Thus it seems like Saruman might be less likely to be able to conceal his intentions from Denethor.

Note that when Gandalf rather incredulously asked Denethor "Is it naught to you that Théoden has fought a great battle and that Isengard is overthrown, and that I have broken the staff of Saruman?" Denethor replied "It is much to me. But I know already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel against the menace of the East." This suggests to me that he might have been keeping an eye on Saruman for some time.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

We do know, however, that it's extremely likely that Denethor and Saruman encountered each other when using their respective palantíri, as stated in Unfinished Tales: "Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to himself." Obviously, however, that's not quite the same as them giving counsel to one another...

It might be possible, however, that Denethor knew by that point that Saruman's trustworthiness was compromised. Denethor became steward in 2984, and according to Unfinished Tales "it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power." Saruman started using the Orthanc-stone in approximately 3000. The subsequent seventeen years (before Boromir departed for the North) seem like ample opportunity for Denethor to have encounted Saruman and to have determined that he could no longer be trusted.

Saruman's expropriation of Orthanc soon after the last White Council seems like it would have been more than enough to cement him in Denethor's mind as untrustworthy; probably a rival, and possible an usurper. This would have been shortly after the last White Council, and decades before Denethor became Steward.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that.

Perhaps he was looking for weapons against his greatest enemy. His sons' dream said the "Sword that was broken" and councils "Stronger than Morgul-spells" could be found in Imladris, not Angrenost.

You're right though, the whole errand is odd if you think of it from Denethor's point of view. Reluctantly or not, to allow his son, heir, and chief captain to journey into the ruined North, apparently unescorted, with the precise destination unknown, on the basis of a dream? In peace-time it would be strange enough, but immediately after the greatest conceivable enemy has declared war and driven Gondor across the Anduin? Denethor?

It almost seems like something Gandalf would do. )

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Saruman's expropriation of Orthanc soon after the last White Council seems like it would have been more than enough to cement him in Denethor's mind as untrustworthy; probably a rival, and possible an usurper. This would have been shortly after the last White Council, and decades before Denethor became Steward.

A very fair point, but it's also worth considering this statement from Appendix A:

"Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith."

Saruman claimed Isengard in 2953, while Aragorn (as Thorongil) was in Gondor between 2957 and 2980. The fact that he and Denethor disagreed in counsel concerning wizards suggests that, for whatever reason, even after Saruman had claimed Isengard, Denethor still advocated Saruman as an ally at that time. On the other hand, as it is implied that Denethor may have already determined Thorongil's true identity by this point, it is possible that he did so more to spite Gandalf than out of genuine belief in Saruman's credibility. I suppose it's also possible that Aragorn was saying "Traditionally you've taken counsel from Saruman; trust Gandalf instead" while Denethor was arguing "Forsake the counsel of wizards altogether."

It's quite a knotty problem.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Reluctantly or not, to allow his son, heir, and chief captain to journey into the ruined North, apparently unescorted, with the precise destination unknown, on the basis of a dream? - emphasis added

Now that you mention it, that is odd.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Now that you mention it, that is odd.

Actually, if Denethor had made the connection between "Isildur's Bane" and "Sauron's Ring", as Inzila and Faramir surmise upthread, it would go a long way to explaining why he'd allow Boromir to take on the errand. But even a more conservative reading of the situation allows for Denethor (who perhaps already had become quite hopeless about the prospects of Minas Tirith) approving a Hail Mary plan which at the very least would carry his favorite son out of harm's way, albeit temporarily.

Going back to Mith's original queries, it occurred to me that HoME might offer some clues. My HoME-fu isn't what it used to be, but flipping around in The Return of the Shadow and Sauron Defeated suggests a couple of possibilities.

The first, and perhaps least satisfying, explanation for the plan-that-must-fail is that Tolkien seems to have foreseen very early on that Gollum would be the true mechanism of the destruction of the Ring.

But it is most remarkable to find here [in an outline from 1939] -- when there is no suggestion of the vast structure still to be built -- that the corruption of the Shire, and the crucial presence of Gollum on the Fiery Mountain, were very early elements in the whole.

It would be easy to infer that this realization saddled Tolkien with a set of narrative blinders. He knew how the Ring would be destroyed, so it wasn't necessary for his heroes to conceive of an actually workable plan for its destruction.

In the first chapter of Sauron Defeated, Christopher Tolkien sums up a few of his father's different outlines which contemplate the events at Mt. Doom. In each version, Gollum seizes the Ring from Frodo, but various scenarios were considered from there -- he and Frodo wrestle and Gollum falls into the fire; Sam arrives and either pushes Gollum into the fire or tackles him into it in a suicidal blaze of glory; or the seemingly quickly discarded idea that Gollum, in a flash of redemption, would himself dive into the fire with the Ring.

Perhaps -- envisioning a scenario where Gandalf goes all the way with Frodo -- G imagined that his love for Frodo might allow him to help the hobbit give up the Ring at the supreme moment, just as he had helped Bilbo give it up earlier.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Actually, if Denethor had made the connection between "Isildur's Bane" and "Sauron's Ring", as Inzila and Faramir surmise upthread, it would go a long way to explaining why he'd allow Boromir to take on the errand. But even a more conservative reading of the situation allows for Denethor (who perhaps already had become quite hopeless about the prospects of Minas Tirith) approving a Hail Mary plan which at the very least would carry his favorite son out of harm's way, albeit temporarily.

I just now noticed that the emphasis was not added because I stupidly italicized rather than bolding....oops.

Anyway, I was really noting the unescorted part of the trip. I find that quite odd. Even on a secret errand, surely somebody should have gone with Boromir just to make sure some minor mishap on the road didn't kill or injure him.

The first, and perhaps least satisfying, explanation for the plan-that-must-fail is that Tolkien seems to have foreseen very early on that Gollum would be the true mechanism of the destruction of the Ring.

It would be easy to infer that this realization saddled Tolkien with a set of narrative blinders. He knew how the Ring would be destroyed, so it wasn't necessary for his heroes to conceive of an actually workable plan for its destruction.

This is an excellent point.

However, in a way I think (if I may be so bold) that Tolkien would have agreed with my point regarding Gandalf that I made upthread. Ultimately, the issue had to be put in the hands of Eru.

[Mister Underhill]

Yes, I'd agree that clearly in the event the justification for sending Frodo to the Fire was that it was the only way to truly solve the problem of the Ring, and therefore it was the only path worth pursuing, ultimately with the hope (or faith if you prefer) that some unforeseen (although as it happened not exactly unforeseen) sequence of events would lead to its destruction.

I'd add a point which slipped my mind earlier, which is that when the quest to destroy the ring was conceived, the ring hadn't really become the Ring yet. That is to say, Tolkien hadn't really yet seen it as the One Ring to Rule Them All that none could resist. So to an extent the quest to destroy *the* Ring may be an artifact of the quest to destroy *a* ring.

Yes, the idea of Boromir wandering around in the wilderness for the better part of four months is a little funny. Maybe he felt he couldn't justify pulling even one man away from the defense of Minas Tirith?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Anyway, I was really noting the unescorted part of the trip. I find that quite odd. Even on a secret errand, surely somebody should have gone with Boromir just to make sure some minor mishap on the road didn't kill or injure him.

I'm not so sure. Obviously Boromir was a noble, but I think, if Aragorn could, why not Boromir. I do not think Aragorn went on all his journeys with an escort even though he was a King in Exile. Boromir is as much a Dúnadan as Aragorn, and more likely than not, more than a match for any thug on the road he'd come across. Though I am with you about the escort, however, since it seems Aragorn was not bound to any escort (as I see when he's the bodyguard of the Ring-bearer to Rivendell, chased down by Nazgul) I suppose someone of Boromir's stature need not be either.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Perhaps he was looking for weapons against his greatest enemy. His sons' dream said the "Sword that was broken" and councils "Stronger than Morgul-spells" could be found in Imladris, not Angrenost.

"Isildur's Bane" would have piqued Denethor's interest immensely too, I think. We find from Unfinished Tales that Saruman had searched for and found Isildur's body near the Gladden Fields. Could that fact have been gleaned by Denethor during sessions over the Palantíri, and Saruman's suspicions about the One Ring been communicated?