Eldarin kingship and succession

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Morthonon:

Yeah, Lúthien played an important part in Beren's heroics. But she is still just his helper in the quest, and the means she uses to help him are clearly identifiable as connected to her female gender.

She does not fight with swords or other weapons, and she doesn't use any violence at all. In fact, she only uses spells to hide herself and Beren, and to escape. It is Huan who defeats Draugluin and Sauron, not Lúthien. And finally she sings a lullaby for Morgoth and his court. That certainly is a great task, but it is certainly not the way a male elf would have accomplished the same thing. He would have defeated both Sauron and Morgoth in battle (or rather he would have been able to knock off Morgoth's crown all by himself to cut the Silmaril out of it).

I know that Galadriel is also tempted by the Ring in Lórien. But it is also about her wish to rule great lands of her own in Middle-earth, and those are, in essence, un-womanly desires because generally only male elves are rulers in Tolkien's world. Galadriel's desires are an exception from the rule, not the rule. The only female Noldor of importance are Aredhel and Idril - and Idril is a good daughter whereas Aredhel shares some of Galadriel's traits. But she never decides a realm of her own just freedom (and not being a good girl she is severely punished for that desire, allowing evil to enter Gondolin in the process).

And we should also keep in mind that Tolkien never gives us a scene in which a man (be it Gandalf, Elrond, or Glorfindel) shows similar signs of being tempted by the One Ring. They certainly would have been, presumably, but it is Galadriel the woman who is actually tempted by the Ring. Just compare her to Faramir who is so much above this kind of thing. Not to mention Aragorn. One can wonder why that is?

As to the White Council:

Honestly, I only see them as a debating society. They accomplished nothing, regardless whether Saruman is to blame for that or not. There is no hint that they ever included to truly militarily powerful Stewards of Gondor or the Kings of Rohan into their design. How do you think the White Council could have challenged Sauron if they lacked the troops to do so? The attack of the White Council on Dol Guldur in 2941 TA was a farce. Sauron was prepared to and intended to leave the place anyway because it was time to move to Mordor.

Yeah, Sauron fled Gandalf in 2063 TA but that was nearly a millennium earlier and had presumably more to do with the fact that he wasn't fully incarnated yet and/or not strong enough to prevail against an Istar in a direct confrontation. Not to mention that he didn't want the Wise to learn yet that he had returned (or was in the long process of returning).

@Belegorn:

If we would do a real gender discussion where usually various attributes of character are coded to be 'male' or 'female' then one could actually say that all the Noldor who repented and went to Eressea overcame their male nature of being dominant, powerful, and active. Even Tolkien uses symbolism to depict that when he has Saruman say that they will return in a grey ship full of ghosts. Saying that they would behave like frightful old women wouldn't be that much different.

But then, Galadriel is technically the only exiled Noldo of note left in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age (unless we consider Gildor Inglorion as another descendant of Finarfin - say, through an unknown sister of Orodreth or something like that) so she is the only one who has to cope with the whole Ban of the Valar thing. She is the only one who is still rebellious until she finally gives in and returns.

@Alcuin:

It seems to me that there was no rule/law in effect that stipulated agnatic succession. The whole (high-)kingship of the Noldor is actually a marred thing. Finwe is the only true king of the Noldor but he eventually died - and even before that his kingship was marred and twisted because of Feanor's exile and Finwe's decision to accompany his son to Formenos and technically give up his kingship until such time as he can live with his son again in his house in Tirion.

Finwe's succession isn't clear, either, most likely because the entire concept is new and essentially 'wrong' because elves are not supposed to die. Finwe's two marriages brought strife into his own house, setting up a rivalry between Míriel's son and Indis' children that essentially caused a struggle for power even before Finwe was killed.

It is clear that Fingolfin enjoyed more support than Feanor and his sons even during the flight of the Noldor. If Fingolfin had wanted to seize the kingship he most likely could have done so because he would have had more support (what prevented him from doing so was apparently his previous oath to Feanor to follow his elder brother).

After Feanor's death his sons most likely simply lacked the power and popularity to seize the kingship over all the Noldor - even if we assume that Maedhros would have wanted to do so after he had been saved by Fingon (which was clearly not the case). Offering Fingolfin the kingship was both a move to save face as well as an attempt to reconcile the exiled Noldor.

And then afterwards childless Fingon and eventually Turgon succeed to the kingship.

But we should not assume the high-kingship was governed by any written or official laws. The very concept of succession itself would have been a fruit of the evil of Arda Marred, and subsequently Eru's true plan for the Quendi would have been that they are ruled by one and the same chieftains/lords/kings throughout the entire history of Arda. Because originally the Elves were not supposed to be slain nor to wane with the age of the earth.

As to the status of the original leaders of the Quendi:

The main problem for Finwe being one of the first is that it is actually stated that he and Míriel only fell in love with each other/had their son Feanor in Aman. So Finwe cannot have been Tata, or one of the other unbegotten elves. And the same goes for Elwe because he, too, was without a spouse until he met Melian. However, Ingwe is another matter. We know all the Minyar went to Aman, so Ingwe certainly could have been identical with Imin. The fact that he has a sister (who is either identical with Indis or her mother) doesn't contradict that. The Feanturi are also called brothers, and Nienna is their sister. If something like that can be the case with the Valar (where it most likely refers to something different from 'biological kinship') then there is no reason why we cannot assume the unbegotten elves had 'siblings', too.

Finwe and Elwe/Olwe's father might have remained behind with the Avari. But Ingwe's father (if he wasn't Imin himself) couldn't have remained behind. So the only explanation for Ingwe not being Imin would be that Imin was one of the poor guys who were either slain or captured by Melkor's minions, but that would mean we have to believe the first Vanya was also the father of the Orcs or himself the first Orc (if we go with the assumption that there must have been Orcs of Quendi-origin in the First Ages, which I think we have to assume). I'm not sure Tolkien would have liked or espoused that possibility if he had ever thought about that.

I'm wondering whether it could make more sense to see Elmo as son of Olwe rather than his and Elwe's brother. We have no idea when Olwe had his first children, and the Elmo chap easily could have been born at Cuiviénen but deciding to stay back and look for his uncle. He could have died in the First Battle to leave his son Celeborn behind in Doriath.

I'm not sure being high-king of the Noldor is more than an honorific, actually. There are no hints that Fingolfin and Fingon/Turgon had any authority over the other Noldorin princes, most especially not about Finrod and Nargothrond (but also not over Feanor's sons). In addition, later on Gil-galad clearly only has authority in Lindon. He cannot command Galadriel or Celebrimbor.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

And finally she sings a lullaby for Morgoth and his court. That certainly is a great task, but it is certainly not the way a male elf would have accomplished the same thing. He would have defeated both Sauron and Morgoth in battle (or rather he would have been able to knock off Morgoth's crown all by himself to cut the Silmaril out of it).

Well, I don't know about this because it is shown that "Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power" (Of Beren and Lúthien)

Originally Posted by Lay of Leithian

Then Sauron laughed: 'Patience! Not long
shall ye abide. But first a song
I will sing to you, to ears intent.'
Then his flaming eyes he on them bent,
and darkness black fell round them all.
Only they saw, as through a pall
of eddying smoke those eyes profound
in which their senses choked and drowned.


He chanted a song of Wizardry,
of piercing, opening, of treachery,
revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
sang in answer a song of staying,
resisting, battling against power,
of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
and trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
of changing and of shifting shape,
of snares eluded, broken traps,
the prison opening, the chain that snaps.


Backwards and forwards swayed their song,
reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
the chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
and all the magic and might he brought
of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
singing afar in Nargothrond,
the sighing of the sea beyond,
beyond the western world, on sand,
on sand of pearls in Elvenland.


Then the gloom gathered: darkness growing
in Valinor, the red blood flowing
beside the sea, where the Noldor slew
the Foamriders, and stealing drew
their white ships with their white sails
from lamplit havens. The wind wails.
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn -
and Finrod fell before the throne.
A vast roar echoes in the halls of stone.
Behold! They are in their own fair shape,
fairskinned, brighteyed. No longer gape
Orclike their mouths; and now they stand
betrayed into the wizard's hand. (2164-2205)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Well, I don't know about this because it is shown that "Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power" (Of Beren and Lúthien)

Well, but that wasn't them fighting each other. That was Finrod trying to maintain the magical disguise that made Beren and him appear like Orcs.

How exactly that works in detail isn't make explicit there, but one assumes that Sauron could not see who they truly were before he won that 'battle' despite the fact that Finrod sang of rather obvious Elvish themes in the song. That most likely means we cannot take this as literal fact but rather as that both Sauron and Finrod used magical songs to either maintain the illusion (some Orcs standing in front of Sauron) or breaking the illusion (Sauron suspecting that the guys standing in front of him are not, in fact, Orcs).

However, in general it is clear that this kind of behavior would, in a gendered discussion, not be coded as 'male'.

You can certainly say that Beren would have been completely doomed without Finrod's and Lúthien's help but in the end the story has him cut the Silmaril out of Morgoth's crown and not Lúthien. And it is he who heroically dies in the fight against Carcharoth. And he is the guy who is later praised for the whole thing.

One can also say that Finrod and Lúthien are very much Beren's sidekicks, not the other way around.

It is not just black-and-white, though. I think there is something to this fact that many of the few strong women in Tolkien's world are more powerful and nobler than their future husbands that can be interpreted in a more progressive gender role way - however, the fact that Thingol, Celeborn, and Aragorn are the rulers and their powerful wives, in a sense, the prices at their sides cannot be denied, either.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Well, but that wasn't them fighting each other. That was Finrod trying to maintain the magical disguise that made Beren and him appear like Orcs.

I don't think it matters that the purpose of Sauron was to remove the disguise and that of Finrod to maintain it. Had Sauron tried to remove the disguises physically and force them off, surely that would have been seen as a fight, albiet hand to hand. Rather in this case it was a fight "which is renowned" where "Felagund fought, and all the magic and might he brought of Elfinesse into his words." So I would say that they did indeed fight, but not physically, rather magically.

Otherwise I do agree with you, that in Tolkien's world, the Men are generally the rulers over their people, but there are examples where women like Haleth the leader of the Haladin, or Ancalimë of the Dúnedain hold sway. But we must keep in mind that with the Elves there is not much seperation between men and women in power or physical ability as portrayed in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar. I think that Galadriel, like Melian, were the powers behind the throne, although in the case of Galadriel and Celeborn they did not have the titles queen or king.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't think it matters that the purpose of Sauron was to remove the disguise and that of Finrod to maintain it. Had Sauron tried to remove the disguises physically and force them off, surely that would have been seen as a fight, albiet hand to hand. Rather in this case it was a fight "which is renowned" where "Felagund fought, and all the magic and might he brought of Elfinesse into his words." So I would say that they did indeed fight, but not physically, rather magically.

I'm not contesting any of that. And I also did not say that women in Tolkien's work aren't allowed to fight. The problem with this special fight is that we have to apply some interpretation to understand what was 'really going on' because the whole event is told is a highly symbolic and poetic mode. I mean, pretty much everybody realizes that this singing contest would have been over at once if Sauron had actually heard Finrod singing about the stuff he apparently mentioned in his song because that would have revealed that he was an Elf (or Noldo from beyond the sea).

But it is said that Sauron only realized what species they were after he had won the contest, and even then could not uncover their personal identity. Something doesn't add up here if you interpret the whole thing literally.

And Finrod later (and earlier) also shows he is a true hero in the male sense because he dies heroically in the fight against the werewolf whom he kills with his bare hands and teeth. No woman in Tolkien's would have ever done such a thing.

Otherwise I do agree with you, that in Tolkien's world, the Men are generally the rulers over their people, but there are examples where women like Haleth the leader of the Haladin, or Ancalimë of the Dúnedain hold sway. But we must keep in mind that with the Elves there is not much seperation between men and women in power or physical ability as portrayed in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar. I think that Galadriel, like Melian, were the powers behind the throne, although in the case of Galadriel and Celeborn they did not have the titles queen or king.

The differences I mention and talk about about gender roles, not physical (or mental) strength. It is quite clear that Galadriel, Lúthien, or Melian are more powerful than their respective husbands.

But this doesn't mean that such women actually could (or should) transform that personal power into political power. Melian is Thingol's wife and adviser, she does not co-rule Doriath at his side and she does not ultimately make any decisions (that is pretty evident when Thingol decides to ignore his wife and demand the Silmaril as bride price, or when it is Thingol - and Thingol alone! - who sits in judgment over Túrin following the death of Saeros).

I see Galadriel and Celeborn as a (lesser) mirror image of Melian and Thingol. The wife is stronger but Celeborn is still the man and thus in charge by default. This does not mean that things might not be different behind closed doors and in private but publicly Celeborn is the one in charge. And Galadriel would most likely cause a scandal or ruin both her own reputation and authority as well as her husband's if she ever publicly questioned his decisions or contradicted him.

Regardless of her own personal power and influence behind the scene Galadriel is still nothing but a supplementary adviser to the real heroes of the story in LotR. She doesn't do anything but give the actual male heroes some counsel. It was a conscious decision on Tolkien's part to have only men in the fellowship.

And it is also clear that Tolkien was uncomfortable with his own version of a more active Galadriel who was a leader among the rebelling Noldor. His final version of her was that of a completely innocent (and holy) woman from the start who only accidentally came under the ban of the Valar. And both Celeborn and Celebrimbor were Falmari elves in that version, suggesting that Tolkien's final version of Celeborn also had him having nearly as much personal power as Celeborn could possibly have without being reinvented as an exiled Noldo himself.

And if take this whole thing back on track - the question of Eldarin kingship - then I see no problem in the fact that Galadriel never was the high-queen of the Noldor both because of her gender as well as, presumably a more important reason, the fact that she was of the youngest branch of Finarfin whereas Gil-galad, son of Orodreth, son of Angrod was of the elder branch. Galadriel was the youngest child of Finarfin, after all.

The lack of a high-kingship of the Noldor after the Second Age is no surprise. Even Lindon lacks a king after Gil-galad's death, and so does Lórien after Amroth's departure.

If Eärendil/Elrond already gave up their claims to the high-kingship back in the First Age then there is little reason to assume the title would revert back to the descendants of Fingolfin in the Third Age. Maedhros and his brothers also apparently could not demand the high-kingship back after the deaths of Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon.

[Galin]

For me Tolkien's "final" version of Galadriel and Celeborn is what he himself decided to publish about the two. He can tinker all he wants in his private papers, some of which are so adumbrated they needed to be paraphrased by Christopher Tolkien, but was he really going to step on this history, already in print (thus already thought of as internally true to his readership), creating another arguably notable Galadriel-related inconsistency within the internal corpus?

We can't know of course... but we can know are those ideas Tolkien considered for publication and said "yes" to [I think JRRT just forgot what was in print and was influenced by his chat with Lord Halsbury. And for all we know the late story remained in such an unfinished state because Tolkien finally remembered -- the same day he began the new version possibly -- what he had already published about Nerwen. Just one possibility among others of course].

Anyway what is clear is what Tolkien himself actually published about Galadriel (banned for her role in the Rebellion), and Celeborn (a Sinda). Christopher Tolkien even remarks that (he thinks) if his father had remembered that Celebrimbor had been published as a Feanorean that he surely would not have altered him to being a Teler...

... the same should seemingly go for Celeborn and Galadriel, I would think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is how kingship was passed among the Anglo-Saxons.

Um, no. Kingship among the A-S was elective, by the witan in a role similar to the College of Cardinals, the candidate pool being the late King's male relatives. Strong kings sometimes but by no means always could impose a successor-presumptive on the council while still alive. Frequently a brother was selected, as being the eldest/most accomplished of the royal house, but by no means always; and by late A-S times a quasi-primogeniture undercurrent had crept in from the Continent, as we can see in the case of Alfred's disgruntled nephew Aethelwold. Ultimately the tensions arising from this unstable system resulted in the fall of Saxon England and the Norman Conquest.

The crowns of King of the Germans/HRE were of course always elective (this was complicated by the old and ultimately harmful Frankish tradition of divided inheritance, as in the case of Charlemagne's grandsons).


-------------------------------

There is no need to impose agnatic succession on the Noldor if Gil-galad is placed where he belongs in the House of Finarfin: straight Salic primogeniture works perfectly well. Note that there is no evidence of Idril ruling anything or taking the title of Queen.