Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The physical side is what I question though. I would posit that physicality was even a "base" concept for them (hence Morgoth's "evil lust" for Lúthien).

I agree. I wish I could find that quote about the difference between Valar marriages and those of the Eruhíni, but maybe I just imagined it...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Which time losing his body do you mean?

He kind of made a habit of it.

Haha, you're right. He really did.

I don't have the Sil here to reference right now, but I believe that none of the valar had children, and the only maia to have a child was Melian. Was childbearing even possible for these beings?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Was childbearing even possible for these beings?

I would say any of the Maia would have been capable, but would have had to have emulated Melian in taking a 'real' body along the lines of the Children of Ilúvatar: material, needing nourishment, water, and sleep; and able to be 'killed', ala Saruman.

That does mean the Istari could have sired children, and so could Sauron, since his physical form was tied to Arda.

[ArcusCalion]

The various creatures of Melkor are almost entirely said to have been birthed from couplings with Incarnate Maiar and lesser beings. In reality, it seems very difficult to address certain issues such as: how did dragons arise? Glaurung "grew" as time passed, and therefore seems to have been a real Incarnate, and Smaug was similarly a "young" drake at some point. All of these imply aging. But as Tolkien says multiple times in the Myths Transformed essays, Eru would never allow Melkor to create life by giving his creations fëar. This was done for Aulë only because of his purity of heart and the goodness of his purpose and obedience to Eru. Melkor has none of these traits, and yet he is able to create many many races that clearly have independent thought and function when his Will is not moving them, as the dragons of later ages after his banishment prove. How then are these Incarnate beings (clearly in possession of fëar) existing? The only explanation is that of Melian, the Maia who procreated with an Incarnate and produced a viable and powerful offspring. Tolkien clearly thought about this most in terms of the Orcs (cf. the Boldogs) but the principle applies to the dragons, werewolves, trolls, and vampires of the legentarium as well. Melkor can corrupt existing animals (made by Yavanna or Orome or Vana) as is said in the story of the beginning of days: "...became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood." Thus, by corrupting some existing creature of Middle-earth and mating them with a truly Incarnate Maia, there could be a viable race of beings with thought and "free-will" after the measure of the Eruhini.

All of this brings me back to the idea of sex. I agree with many in the thread that the Valar did not procreate, since they were not bound to their bodies. They assumed Fanar only, in order to interact with the Children. Their "marriages" are not chiefly of the body, but of the sublime union of spirit with spirit in intrinsic one-ness: the very Catholic ideal of what the supernatural side of the sacrament of marriage is (as Tolkien knew well). As others have said, the more the Valar enjoy the "fruits of the earth," the more they become bound to it. This idea is actually tied up in the concept of the Valar growing "old." In the Prophecy of Mandos it is said that "When the Valar grow old" Morgoth will return. If they are immortal beings the only way in which they might age is by being bound to the physical Orma of Arda more closely. This comes (as many of you have pointed out) by prolonged inhabitance in a truly Incarnate form. Melian and the Istari (as well as the Boldogs and first dragons/werewolves/trolls/etc.) must by necessity have been fully Incarnate, as they were only released by death and the union of their bodies and their ability to procreate is intrinsic. The Valar merely presented a fana to the Incarnates who saw them. fana literally means "cloud" and the very idea of its immateriality is inherent in the name. They were not true Incarnations, as Melian and the Istari were, and thus had no bodily need to perform functions. Sex is the very foundation of biology, and so if the Valar did indeed partake of it with one another, they must have done so extremely sparingly, lest they become bound to the physical realm too much.

Morgoth clearly did this, as he INcarnated himself and poured his "begetting" power into many creatures and beings. This seems to imply that he himself was the literal father of many of his corrupted races, and in this act of "dissemination" (which literally means spreading the seed) he became bound to the earth. His lust for Luthien can then be explained by the rule of the body over his spirit, which was a symbol of his downfall. Sexual desire is not evil, even in an Ainu, as Melian demonstrates. However, lust for domination of another through sex without love is an evil in this world, and Morgoth fell victim to that.

Sauron, however, never had to "beget" races of beings. He changes his form so much throughout his existence that it can clearly be seen to be a fana, and not a true Body. Thus, he would not have been ruled by the bodily desires of Morgoth. His "lust" happened only after his "begetting" of the Ring, which was his greatest act of engaging with the physical realm on a spiritual level. The Ring is Sauron's sex-drive, and thus he has no need for actual sex.

The bottom line is: the Valar could have sex, but probably didn't because of the binding to the terrestrial world that it brings, but may Maiar certainly did (and not all of them evil, as the Skinchangers, talking ravens, and the Great Eagles exist independently of the Maiar).

[denethorthefirst]

Tolkien writes in the Silmarillion that the Valar out of curiosity emulated the elves and "clothed" themselves in bodies like them, they even created a language (Valarin), they ate and drank, all things they definitely did not need, purely out of curiosity. If the Valar went so far in emulating the children (at first out of curiosity, to better understand the children) then i don't think that it is a stretch to assume that they also tried sex. But since the Valar were only clothed and not incarnate (like, already mentioned, Melian, Sauron in the third Age or the Istari) they would not have been able to become pregnant and could only perform the physical act. Also I don't think that two incarnate Ainu could get children, in order to get children, the other Party has to be a non-Ainu.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Sauron, however, never had to "beget" races of beings. He changes his form so much throughout his existence that it can clearly be seen to be a fana, and not a true Body.

Sauron was only merely "clothed" until the downfall of Numenor in 3119 S.A.. After that he became fully incarnated i.e. he had to construct a new body and was completely tied to that particular form like one of the incarnates. Were it not for the One Ring Sauron would have "died" during the Battle of Mount Doom in 3441 S.A. (And one could indeed argue that for all intents and purposes Sauron did actually die during that battle, at least his body ceased to function and his spirit had to depart from it).
The question remains what kind of body Sauron actually had. Was it an actual biological body like a human or elven body, or more like a biological Machine? I would argue that Saurons incarnate form was a unique construct, Isildurs statement that the Body emanated extreme heat seems to suggest that - a human or elven body (like the Istari or Melian possessed) would have burned to death if it experienced heat like that.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I would argue that Saurons incarnate form was a unique construct, Isildurs statement that the Body emanated extreme heat seems to suggest that - a human or elven body (like the Istari or Melian possessed) would have burned to death if it experienced heat like that.

This is arguably similar to the bodies of Balrogs with their flaming hair, and thus something of a recurring demonic trait. Perhaps Úmaiar manifested approximations of human bodies piloted by their fëar rather than the real thing; this might be supported by the fact that they could also be taller than would be biologically feasible, Sauron being "of more than human stature", for instance.

[Pitchwife]

As far as Sauron is concerned, I think we can safely assume that sex as a one-on-one encounter between consenting partners was completely alien to his personality. I mean, what is sex without trust, vulnerability, opening up to the other? Sauron being the control freak he was, I suppose he'd have been horrified at the notion of handing control of the most sensitive parts of his hröa over to a partner. This is not to say he would have been above using the sexual desires of others as a means of manipulation, as long as he could control and dominate them. (What really went on between Annatar and Celebrimbor?)

Speaking of control makes me wonder about those Ainur who merely clothed themselves into humanoid fanar rather than being fully incarnate. Since their 'bodies' were to them means of self-expression (or, in the cases of Sauron and his like, deception) that could be freely chosen and changed at will, we'd have to assume that any bodily functions they engaged in (such as eating, drinking and, you name it) were also completely subject to their will, wouldn't we? While this may seem enviable at first glance, I find myself wondering whether they were even able to experience spontaneous excitement, pleasure and climactic release as we do. In other words, if their desire to emulate the Children led them to attempting sexual intercourse, did it actually feel like the real thing to them or was it just a gymnastic pantomime that tragically missed the point?