Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

I think that Maeglin was probably afraid of a lot of things.

A quick character profile, written out as it comes to me, of Maeglin the sympathetic character:

Born in the dark woods, Maeglin was forbidden by his father from seeing the sun. He visited only the mines of the dwarves; his entire childhood was closed-in, by trees or walls.

The ride across Beleriand must have shaken him deeply: he was in a world entirely beyond his experience. Then Gondolin, high rather than deep, full of light - nowhere to hide, everyone insisting he dance and sing, nowhere to just sit and be still. It's no wonder he takes to mining as a way to get a proper roof over his head, and a bit of peace from... everyone.

(Silm tells us that he was an elf of few words; FoG provides that when he returned from his captivity, he talks about joining the dances as if it's something he'd long been urged to.)

And then his father, who has controlled his life, shows up, and kills his mother, and is killed in turn by his uncle. Already worried by heights, yes, I can see that developing into a full-blown phobia for a while. It would also tarnish his uncle in his eyes somewhat, leaving Idril as his only 'pure' family member.

It's not unreasonable to cast him as the youngest person in the city: elves tend not to have kids in time of war, and Turgon is smart enough to have recognised Glaurung's outing in 260 as a serious omen. Maeglin was born in 320, and arrived in the city in 400. So he's the kid (as he has always been, to both his parents), but also, to everyone else, the weird prince. Once again, Idril - barefoot, visionary - is weird enough to be the only person he can possibly relate to.

And yeah - that connection and idolising turns to love, and twists with each rejection.

How does he take the arrival of Huor and Hurin? I don't know - but their departure, when his parents died over that being forbidden, must have burned. That's probably when he began to consider mining expeditions outside the mountains (he had previously abode by the rules Eol set in Nan Elmoth, right up to his escape with Aredhel.)

Tuor? Tuor shows up looking like his replacement, or his bright mirror. Beloved of Idril, prince of Gondolin, leader of a new House - but while Maeglin has trouble talking to people, Tuor finds it easy, effortless. It's hard NOT to hate him.

And then Earendil. If Maeglin is the youngest of Gondolin, Earendil is his final ousting: a new prince, beloved of Turgon, almost certain to steal his position as heir. Sure, it's not the kid's fault- but his upbringing wasn't Maeglin's fault, and look how little people make allowances for THAT.

... or something like that. Maeglin is a misfit, a child of twilight thrust into a world of light that never understood him.

... and also a traitor and lust-driven attempted kinslayer. Tuor didn't exactly have an easy childhood either (what did I say about them being reflections?), but he turned out much better...

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think that Maeglin was probably afraid of a lot of things.

A quick character profile, written out as it comes to me, of Maeglin the sympathetic character:

Born in the dark woods, Maeglin was forbidden by his father from seeing the sun. He visited only the mines of the dwarves; his entire childhood was closed-in, by trees or walls.

The ride across Beleriand must have shaken him deeply: he was in a world entirely beyond his experience. Then Gondolin, high rather than deep, full of light - nowhere to hide, everyone insisting he dance and sing, nowhere to just sit and be still. It's no wonder he takes to mining as a way to get a proper roof over his head, and a bit of peace from... everyone.

(Silm tells us that he was an elf of few words; FoG provides that when he returned from his captivity, he talks about joining the dances as if it's something he'd long been urged to.)

And then his father, who has controlled his life, shows up, and kills his mother, and is killed in turn by his uncle. Already worried by heights, yes, I can see that developing into a full-blown phobia for a while. It would also tarnish his uncle in his eyes somewhat, leaving Idril as his only 'pure' family member.

It's not unreasonable to cast him as the youngest person in the city: elves tend not to have kids in time of war, and Turgon is smart enough to have recognised Glaurung's outing in 260 as a serious omen. Maeglin was born in 320, and arrived in the city in 400. So he's the kid (as he has always been, to both his parents), but also, to everyone else, the weird prince. Once again, Idril - barefoot, visionary - is weird enough to be the only person he can possibly relate to.

And yeah - that connection and idolising turns to love, and twists with each rejection.

How does he take the arrival of Huor and Hurin? I don't know - but their departure, when his parents died over that being forbidden, must have burned. That's probably when he began to consider mining expeditions outside the mountains (he had previously abode by the rules Eol set in Nan Elmoth, right up to his escape with Aredhel.)

Tuor? Tuor shows up looking like his replacement, or his bright mirror. Beloved of Idril, prince of Gondolin, leader of a new House - but while Maeglin has trouble talking to people, Tuor finds it easy, effortless. It's hard NOT to hate him.

And then Earendil. If Maeglin is the youngest of Gondolin, Earendil is his final ousting: a new prince, beloved of Turgon, almost certain to steal his position as heir. Sure, it's not the kid's fault- but his upbringing wasn't Maeglin's fault, and look how little people make allowances for THAT.

... or something like that. Maeglin is a misfit, a child of twilight thrust into a world of light that never understood him.

... and also a traitor and lust-driven attempted kinslayer. Tuor didn't exactly have an easy childhood either (what did I say about them being reflections?), but he turned out much better...

hS

Maeglin was 190 yesrs old before he was killed, so not the youngest in Gondolin. Youngest among other Elda, but Tuor was also younger than him.

[Urwen]

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

[Urwen]

Could I have your thoughts regarding this too?

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

I think the key piece of evidence here is the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth, where we are told:

Originally Posted by Silm

But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Fingolfin is able to fight on after being crushed under the full strength of Morgoth, and at least momentarily survives his neck being crushed by his weight. But how strong is Morgoth? Well, let's look back at a much earlier event:

Originally Posted by Silm

Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground.

How much force do you need to stab a tree to its heart? To ballpark this, I'm going to assume that the Two Trees were the size of the largest giant redwood, so ~30ft in diameter. That means Morgoth's spear has to punch 15 feet.

Let's say the Trees were of similar consistency to a shield. I'm saying this because it means I can use the fact that arrows seem to average just penetrating a shield, meaning I can say that a human-fired arrow would stick maybe an inch into a tree. (That sounds about right.)

Using this list, we find that a modern arrow imparts ~60 foot-pounds of at impact - it could push 60 lb through one foot. The arrow will penetrate an inch into the tree, meaning we'd need to be able to push 720 lb through that foot to actually penetrate a foot.

And Morgoth pushed his spear 15 times that far. That's right on 10,000 pounds.

Morgoth's minimum known attack strength is like having [url="https://cars.lovetoknow.com/List_of_Car_Weights"]3 medium-sized cars[url] piled on top of you, with their full weight resting on you (so 12 cars, if you're just under one wheel). It's a large elephant stepping directly on you with all four feet. It's the force of a car at 10mph not just hitting you and sending you flying, but crushing you directly against a wall. And Fingolfin survived it.

Arguably, he also lifted it, when he 'thrice arose again'. A super-strong human can apparently lift ~500 lb - Fingolfin operated at 20x that level. Even if we trim that down by arguing that he didn't necessarily push Morgoth straight back up, and that he was operating under extreme adrenaline conditions, we still have to assume something like 5x maximum human strength.

Beren only took down Curufin by knocking his horse over on top of him. Turin grabbed a sword from someone who wanted desperately not to hurt him. Dior probably had elven strength. Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS

And then threw said elf over the wall.



Tuor the Child-Killer

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

And then threw said elf over the wall.

Tuor the Child-Killer

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it.

hS

True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too.



However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child.



Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though....



I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Twice we're told he no longer knows quiet, and that he used to 'wander amid the mines'; coupled with the Silm statement that "His words were few save in matters that touched him near", I take that as confirmation that he didn't want to be among people. What Morgoth did to him was actually crueller than physical torture: he took away his ability to enjoy the silence. Maeglin literally had to drown out what he'd once found restful, because the Dark Lord had poisoned it against him.

In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable.

hS

It's very Clockwork Orangy, don't you think?

I agree it's a fitting punishment, as he cannot find satisfaction or make peace with what he's done, and it is very pitiable. Especially since he's pretty much done it to himself, misguidedly.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Tuor the Child-Killer

A child in his own mind, and maybe a gloomy teen by behaviour, but certainly fully geown physically. And given his independence and bits of leadership, I expect he's not quite a child as that. Only in his own mind.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Maeglin was 190 yesrs old before he was killed, so not the youngest in Gondolin. Youngest among other Elda, but Tuor was also younger than him.

Yeah, I meant prior to that. Tuor's arrival, and even more so Earendil's birth, would have disrupted and overturned what I see as a key part of his self-image: that he was the youngest, and that (in the age-old refrain) "nobody understands me!". When Tuor arrives, Maeglin finds out that being youngest doesn't necessarily mean you have to be disliked. He needs to either take that as a lesson and grow - or reject it and come to hate Tuor. We all know which way he went on that score.

This quote from the Fall tells you a lot about Maeglin:

Then Meglin was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat; but Melko wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless he wore a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "Meglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; yet Idril feared him the more. Now Meglin said: "I have laboured much and am minded to rest, and to join in the dance and the song and the merrymakings of the folk", and he went no more quarrying stone or ore in the hills: yet in sooth he sought herein to drown his fear and disquiet. Adread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand, and this came of the spell; and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.

Twice we're told he no longer knows quiet, and that he used to 'wander amid the mines'; coupled with the Silm statement that "His words were few save in matters that touched him near", I take that as confirmation that he didn't want to be among people. What Morgoth did to him was actually crueller than physical torture: he took away his ability to enjoy the silence. Maeglin literally had to drown out what he'd once found restful, because the Dark Lord had poisoned it against him.

In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable.

hS

[Urwen]

I agree with you that he was a child, and remained such until the end. Which only makes his end even more tragic.