TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Not going to lie the initial question seemed in good faith but latching on to the list post seems more unsavory.

My question was in good faith; your answer was not reassuring. Reassuring answers could include: 'I always post lists', or 'I wanted it there to copy', or 'I expected there'd be more posts before mine'. To describe my failure to accept your answer as "latching on... unsavory... wolfish... attempted bandwagoning" is, ah... I'm going to go with 'a suspicious overreaction'.

Originally Posted by Boro

But let's say I was trying to start a debate about Day 1s? What's wrong with debate?

So your 'factual answer' comment made me feel a bit better, but then this happened. What's wrong with that debate (and its relatives) is that it's been done a hundred(ish) times before; everyone knows the steps, and both 'let's discuss this' and 'we should be hunting wolves instead of discussing this' are great ways for wolves to contribute without implicating themselves at all.

Which, incidentally, is also what the "what's wrong with Day 1 Debates?" debate/question does. Which is why your asking the question keeps me suspicious of your motives.

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

My question was in good faith; your answer was not reassuring. Reassuring answers could include: 'I always post lists', or 'I wanted it there to copy', or 'I expected there'd be more posts before mine'. To describe my failure to accept your answer as "latching on... unsavory... wolfish... attempted bandwagoning" is, ah... I'm going to go with 'a suspicious overreaction'.



hS

Noted. Next time I’ll Lie and it’ll be better than honesty.

[Soriman the Whide]

Oh my, terrible news, I've been busy working the land but now that i've returned I say this crime must be paid for with blood! I feel that a blind 1/4 chance of getting a wolf may be a little optimistic though.

[Thinlómien]

Hui is giving me vague bad vibes, which is giving me headache. I mean, I got bad vibes from him in the last game too, but I gave him the benefit of doubt because we hadn't played together before - and then he actually turned out to be a wolf. So the million dollar question is: is he a wolf again or is he just the next Eönwë whom I find super suspicious every time regardless of his role? And if I'm tempted to give him the benefit of doubt and waiting and seeing, am I just making the same mistake as last time? Ughhhh.

Anyway, agreeing with Legate that Hui misrepresents Boro's poking fun at Form's werewolf playing style when he frames it as starting pointless debate. I mean how else do you even get the ball rolling on Day1 if not by bullying your old friends?

Greenie seems like her solid self but when does she not.

Morsul's touchiness in #22 is the biggest individual red flag I've seen toDay so far. He implies Hui is suspecting him because his "honest answer" to Hui's question was not satisfactory, but what Hui is actually suspecting him for is being so touchy when questioned. Odd, but not necessarily out of character for an Ordul the Dark either.

...come on, could someone do something actually suspicious? Pretty please? I will give you a... vote as a present if you do.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I mean, it was nine posts into the game. It's hard to imagine anything someone could say that early that would warrant a full-fledged accusation. I just thought it was suspicious - a little.

Explanation accepted, Captain Needa - sorry, wrong fandom - but you realise that at least this part of your answer is very generic. Fair enough if it is genuine, but would serve you equally well as a Wolf. But alright, as clarification, noted.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Sure. By 'courting' I was thinking 'courting disaster' rather than 'courting the Lady Emeldir'; perhaps 'raising the spectre of' would do as a synonym? Boro wasn't starting such a debate - I agree with you that Greenie overstated that somewhat - but by bringing it up, he made it more likely that it would be a topic of conversation, and thus potentially a day-derailing debate in which the wolves could easily hide.

While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Can't speak for Huin, but for myself - in the same sentence I also mentioned Lommy wanting to start bandwagons (which is also quite a stretch) and Lottie gardening (I assume she wasn't, in fact, actually gardening). There was also as a telltale sign that I wasn't being entirely serious. That said, I do like giving the anthill a little poke early on Day 1 to see what comes out. I'm quite pleased with my success if this moves us forward from debating the relative merits of hunter-gathering vs farming!

Aside from that, I'm not entirely sure how latching onto someone else's suspicion without fact-checking would constitute a "very good move" for a wolf.

Well, it could be as easily jumping on something that exists (a "bandwagon", if you will, or something that could easily start one).

As for smileys as telltale signs - even a Wolf with a smiley could rile up public opinion in a "joking" accusation (I'd say even better, in fact, because they could back out on the premise that it was a joke). That being said, mentioning Lommy as "wanting to start a bandwagon" is also a statement that could be interpreted as trying to "paint someone black". But at least she said that, while with the other you literally seemed like you picked up something that somebody said that Boro said.

Otherwise - I see the debate has started more broadly. Hui I see continues to ruffle some feathers. I think a Wolf would not necessarily overdo things in such a manner, however, I am not sure if I have ever seen a Huiwolf and how it would operate. Another possibility that now occurs to me is that this back-and-forth between Hui and Boro is some theatrical Wolf-on-Wolf maneuver.

Anyway I'll in the future try to form my thoughts also on others in some coherent way.

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy, Soriman and Boro

[Pitchwife]

Here I am, back from work/patrol/hunting&gathering. Now let's see, what do we have so far? *rubs hand, cracks knuckles*


Morsul looks just like Morsul, nothing to worry about.
Formy and Lottie look like nothing particular so far.
sally looks like sally.
Hui is active in pokey mode, which is a good thing at this time of Day, but what are the intentions behind his poking? TBD.
Lommy's #12 struck me as both self-conscious and remarkably content free. "Somebody posted a list... ops, it was G55", when Morsul had actually posted a list and been questioned about it by Hui. Was there really nothing to engage with by that time? Could be a wolf reluctant to stick her head out.
Greenie feels neutral, slightly on the goodish side.
Boro feels good so far, and I was about to say the same of Legate up to this:

Originally Posted by Legate #26

Hui I see continues to ruffle some feathers. I think a Wolf would not necessarily overdo things in such a manner, however, I am not sure if I have ever seen a Huiwolf and how it would operate. Another possibility that now occurs to me is that this back-and-forth between Hui and Boro is some theatrical Wolf-on-Wolf maneuver.

Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.

I was confused by the very same quote from Legate for the same reason; however I disagree with (and am baffled by) your conclusion. Are you saying Wolfate is intentionally trying to mislead the village that he has no experience of a previous Wolfesoron and expecting no one to remember a game from last year and bust him?


edit: xed with Greenie's novel

[Thinlómien]

Random note: why am I not surprised that Kath hasn't made an appearance yet?

[Thinlómien]

Also so far the Day seems to follow a rather predictable course once again otherwise too, with Boro, Legate and Huinesoron drawing a fair bit of attention and suspicion, Greenie and Pitch somewhat detachedly analysing "from the sides", and Morsul causing controversy. Nothing there really that stands out from the usual formula of a Day1. (Makes me think one should write a parody of a stereotypical ww game. )

Morsul being touchy, Huinesoron pinging my vibedar and Pitch making an odd argument about Legate and Hui* are still the only things standing out to me. That's not much to go on.

* I could see Pitch's somewhat contra-intuitive suggestion of a Legate-Huinesoron pack as a wolf tripping over his feet to fabricate a wolf pack accusation. Perhaps especially if one of Legate and Huinesoron was his packmate actually. Or maybe they're Plot Twist all wolves together?

Anyway, I would really really like to see something more from Form, Kath, Lottie, Sally and Soriman in the next 3 hours or so before I have to vote.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

This would be a fabulous scenario - though if they were wolves together, Legate forgetting about having sniffed out a previous Huiwolf would be very odd. As a purposeful deception (pretending not to remember his role in the demise of a past Huiwolf), I can't see what purpose it would serve - especially since they couldn't really count on no one else remembering that.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I was confused by the very same quote from Legate for the same reason; however I disagree with (and am baffled by) your conclusion. Are you saying Wolfate is intentionally trying to mislead the village that he has no experience of a previous Wolfesoron and expecting no one to remember a game from last year and bust him?

I'm not quite sure what I'm saying. Something like, if a Legwolf thinks Huiwolf is behaving typically Huiwolvish he may want to pretend bad memory as an excuse for not picking it up. It's not an argument that they must be wolves together, but I think it would kind of make sense psychologically.

[Kath]

Righty ho. Has to be a quick one from me today I'm afraid, so it's going to be a list post with some vague notions about things so far, and then a vote not long after that.

Boro - has Greenie on his not too sure list (post 25) for summing up without opinions and pointing discussion at people. Those people were Lottie, sally, Boro and Lommy. Only Boro I would have said then actually did garner much discussion so certainly not an effective tactic if it was one.

Formendacil - no opinion formed so far.

Greenie - mentions Hui seems ok and Legate tends to be more abrasive when innocent. Not sure if she's meaning he is abrasive at the moment and therefore innocent, or that if he was innocent she'd expect to see him act more abrasively (post 28).

Huinesoron - I had forgotten how aggressively Hui plays. Every game I've played with them I've thought they were a wolf because of the playing style, but sometimes they were one, so that doesn't really help.

Legate - not liking the way Hui is behaving but more concerned about Greenie following a similar line (post 16). I disagree about Greenie just following what Hui said, as Hui was pointing it out as suspicious, while Greenie seemed to be treating it as generic banter. Continues to focus on Greenie and Hui and wondering about Hui/Boro being wolf-mates for the back and forth. Why not Morsul/Hui for the same reason?

Lommy - follows Legate's thoughts about Hui but not about Greenie regarding the Day 1 debate debacle (sorry, I couldn't resist the alliteration). Finding Morsul suspicious for the touchiness (post 24). I read Morsul's reactions as a bit annoyed rather than defensive but I think the interplay between Morsul and Hui bears watching as it's been relatively intense for the small number of posts so far.

Loslote - will have to see more.

Morsul - interesting to note Hui as the least suspicious (post 14). Didn't mention the reason for this assessment which is odd given Hui was focusing on them a fair bit at this point. Then in post 19 throws in the idea that Hui could actually be wolfy. So from most innocent to potentially wolfy rather quickly there.

Pitch - slightly concerned about Lommy, and about Legate not knowing how a Hui wolf would act given he's played with a Hui wolf before. My own memory is so poor that I wouldn't rely on recall of past games for myself, so this is a tough basis for suspicion.

Sally - bloodshed, blood, chew on (post 7) ... do we have a Cobbler in this game? Ah I see Boro pointed out the same!

Soriman - more needed for thoughts.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Random note: why am I not surprised that Kath hasn't made an appearance yet?

Oy!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Morsul

...latching on to the list post seems more unsavory

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Legate has a point in that Huin is indeed pursuing it to a noticeable extent - even if I wouldn't go so far as to call it "obsessive".

o.O You're all making me doubt myself - I've had to double-check and confirm that yes, I really do only have four posts in the thread (five now!). If you discount the requested clarification to Legate, I've only 'pursued' and 'brought back' any points once (and in direct reply to the people I originally posted about).

I think what's happened is that it's still been the main topic of conversation, because I was posting (and poking) during a fairly quiet time, so people are flagging that without fully recognising what's happening. But I'm not going to discount a wolf pushing the perception.

... on which point, given that Legate originally said "Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source"," I think that exact same phrase could describe Greenie's repetition of Legate's comment on me.

Once is chance; twice is possibly-lupine coincidence, especially when it's used to buddy up to the person who doubted you.

Boro's "we would be discussing something" post makes me feel a bit better about him. Morsul's "Next time I’ll Lie and it’ll be better" sounds fairly sullen-innocent, but still has that 'how people take it is more important than what I say' vibe that whispers 'wolf!'.

I like Lommy's implied point that 'the noisy people all look suspicious' is fairly standard TiG material while the quieter people slip by undiscussed. Not sure what to do about it, but I like it.

Not sure what to make of "forgetting games a plague ago means you're a pack of wolves"...

hS

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

But let's say I was trying to start a debate about Day 1s? What's wrong with debate? I mean in the end the only way we can hope to rid our camp of these devils is for everyone to participate and debate.

If you look back, I actually never said there was anything wrong or suspicious about it. On the contrary, I think it's one of the tried and tested ways to get people talking about something, which can then lead to more fruitful conversations.

Originally Posted by Boro

Greenie giving a little summation post and going. Looks kind of evil like "here's what's happened so far, but I won't go further into what I think or feel about it." It looks like an attempt to point the day discussion towards certain people (Lottie, sally, myself and Lommy) but not giving her own opinions.

Fair - though I did mention in the same post that I was at work and couldn't contribute properly until later.

Originally Posted by Legate

Well, it could be as easily jumping on something that exists (a "bandwagon", if you will, or something that could easily start one).

As for smileys as telltale signs - even a Wolf with a smiley could rile up public opinion in a "joking" accusation (I'd say even better, in fact, because they could back out on the premise that it was a joke). That being said, mentioning Lommy as "wanting to start a bandwagon" is also a statement that could be interpreted as trying to "paint someone black". But at least she said that, while with the other you literally seemed like you picked up something that somebody said that Boro said.

Not sure about this argument - especially since, as noted above, there was no "accusation" or even suspicion in that post at all. I also don't greatly love the implication that I'm being careless or not checking my sources. (I'm an academic. I always check my sources. )

On another note, I found this really interesting -

Originally Posted by Legate, re: Huin

While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.

Legate has a point in that Huin is indeed pursuing it to a noticeable extent - even if I wouldn't go so far as to call it "obsessive". But then, Legate himself is arguably just as keen on pursuing Huin (and to some extent myself) about it. I'm not sure what to make of this yet, except Huin gives me decent vibes so far (the inquisitiveness and getting people talking) and I seem to remember Legate tends to be more abrasive when he's innocent, too.

That said, I'm also somewhat fascinated by this catch from Pitch -

Originally Posted by Pitch

Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.

This would be a fabulous scenario - though if they were wolves together, Legate forgetting about having sniffed out a previous Huiwolf would be very odd. As a purposeful deception (pretending not to remember his role in the demise of a past Huiwolf), I can't see what purpose it would serve - especially since they couldn't really count on no one else remembering that. If anything, this leads me to the opposite conclusion from Pitch - that Huin and Legate are somewhat unlikely to be wolves together. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all the possible different configurations of Legate/Huin/Boro and who might be in cahoots with whom (or if they are, as usual, nothing but active innocents trying to get the conversation going), but it's giving me a headache at the moment!

As for everyone else - I don't have a good read on anyone yet (what a shocker, halfway through Day 1). I do second Lommy in that Morsul's defensiveness was eye-catching, but I'm not sure how much to read into it. And - that's about it? Clearly I need to look around more

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So your 'factual answer' comment made me feel a bit better, but then this happened. What's wrong with that debate (and its relatives) is that it's been done a hundred(ish) times before; everyone knows the steps, and both 'let's discuss this' and 'we should be hunting wolves instead of discussing this' are great ways for wolves to contribute without implicating themselves at all.

Which, incidentally, is also what the "what's wrong with Day 1 Debates?" debate/question does. Which is why your asking the question keeps me suspicious of your motives.

hS

But we would be discussing something, which I find always more useful than discussing nothing or just conceding to the pack "lay under the radar toDay, because it's Day 1 and they are more likely to just lynch someone they disagree with because they have no other evidence." So really, it's just a disagreement about Day 1 mechanics.

I am of the opinion, the more people say and respond to a topic, the better it is to figure out their motives. You disagree and see it as an opportunity for a wolf to appear actively contributing and thus helpful. That disagreement doesn't make you suspicious in my opinion. I trust you can discern the difference of someone talking just to talk and appear helpful and someone talking to prompt responses and attempt to learn something from the responses. One is a person putting up a flimsy defense only to back away and let other people go at it in a debate. The other is someone who is prepared to get right in the thick of it and defend this silly notion that Day 1s are useless.

So far...

I quite like Morsul's posts. It looks very much like "I'm going about things my way and if you got a problem with it, oh well."

Legate appears sharp and observant, which is a good sign.

Huey is going right in there with questions and accusations, so that also looks like a good sing.

The not so good signs...

Greenie giving a little summation post and going. Looks kind of evil like "here's what's happened so far, but I won't go further into what I think or feel about it." It looks like an attempt to point the day discussion towards certain people (Lottie, sally, myself and Lommy) but not giving her own opinions.

sally, in character banter, but going to have to see more from her.

Edit: Crossed with Soriman and Lommy