Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXI: Dueling Wizards Werewolf

[Diamond18]

For those wondering I have been evil since the second day. I was the first wolf selected after the three. And you thought I was only converted the last night! :p

I didn't. :p Well, actually, I didn't really it that much thought, I just knew I'd wanted you dead for a long time but couldn't manage any sort of decent argument for it. :rolleyes: The one thing I felt I could have really used against you was the posts you made the last day you were alive, but Spawn took care of you before that was needed.

[Glirdan]

The first indication I got of him being evil was actually back Day 6 (I think it was Day 6, or was it 7? :confused: ) when he said his little bit about Lmp changing his mind about the quiet ones (aka, the non-voters/posters). Something about that post didn't sit right with me and hasn't ever since. Grrr!! I wish I would have lived!! That way, I could have been yelling "Lynch him! Lynch him!" at everyone instead of at the computer screen. :rolleyes:

[Caranlondien]

Ack! I protected a werewolf! :rolleyes: Well, I was suspicious of him, but I thought if he were innocent Eomer would be a likely wolf kill that night... [/attempt to salvage my ego]

Congratulations to you wolves (and to the EW), though now I will never trust my former orcish companions Roa and Jenny. You two are just plain evil! :p

And excellently modded, LMP! This was a great game, and I'd like to see another Dueling Wizards. I hope you'll be modding again - I loved the narrations!

[Diamond18]

The first indication I got of him being evil was actually back Day 6 (I think it was Day 6, or was it 7? ) when he said his little bit about Lmp changing his mind about the quiet ones (aka, the non-voters/posters).

If I had been smart I would have picked up on that. But actually, since I had just modded a game I could see the conundrum of being faced with killing your wolves for missing a day, and so I could see his point. I didn't actually think you were a wolf, though I thought Zali might be, but I still thought there wasn't anything wrong with Eomer getting that idea. Oh well, just another item to add to the list of the many things I did wrong this game. That's the problem, ain't it, the wolves were all such good players that even when they were suspected people just couldn't come up with lynch cases that other people would get behind. It's sadly true that the votes for Jenny came across as random and unsubstantiated, which only played into her hands. Tch.

Anyway, I might as well say it again, Lalaith you got everything right, so sorry I kept doubting you till it was too late. :(

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hahahahahaha!!! That's for our fallen comrades (especially my dear father, Alcarillo), and, of course, the glory of the Evil Wizard herself! What an honour to slay innocent villagers with such talented players.

LMP, excellent modding. The family and relationship aspect especially made your narrations brilliant fun. I've been meaning to ask for a while now, is the Dueling Wizards concept your own?

I could talk about this for days (and probably will) but first, there is something I must say. Cailín, on that fateful night I was turned, I had no part in your death. That's the honest truth. I still love my family. Can you ever forgive me? Phantom?

Everyone played their part in this game, one of the most fun we've ever had. :)

[Celuien]

For those wondering I have been evil since the second day. I was the first wolf selected after the three. And you thought I was only converted the last night! :p What a great game. I have more to say later but it was great working with Roa, I knew her identity, I believe I was the only one. I wish I had made it victoriously to the end but well done Jenny my Daughter, Eomer my nemisis and Kitanna my friend.
I have been wondering when you turned. Had a feeling it was early, though. Like Nilp, I thought you were the Good Wizard, even going so far as to think I spotted a code in one of your posts after the phantom died (as he'd suggested the GW should do). And replied in kind to the 'code.' That shows where overthinking does. :rolleyes: At that point, I'd noticed that you and Roa seemed very similar in what kinds of things you were saying and thought she was your Seer.

Congratulations to the victorious evil team!

And great narrations, LMP. And a round of applause to the submods.

[Boromir88]

I must congradulate Roa and her wolves on an excellently played game. It was fun relaying the messages back and forth and getting to see the Evil side's strategy. Well played game by our Evil players, you guys had them on ropes most of the time. :)

On another note, Diamond you were so dead on in the begginning I was contradicting myself thinking if only people would listen to you, but then that would mean bad news for the Evil players. :D

Thanks to all for sticking through the fun...and the craziness, it was definitely an...interesting ride.

And definitely much gratitude towards LMP and Kuru, it was a pleasure to help and work alongside both of you.

[Celuien]

I just looked at the family tree again and realized that Saucy and I were the only ones connected to Morm who weren't cursed.

Where did we go wrong with our girls, Saucy? I wouldn't blame you one bit for going through with that posthumous divorce (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/27/dentist.divorce.ap/index.html) now. It seems that my family is just plain evil. :D

[Gurthang]

For those wondering I have been evil since the second day. I was the first wolf selected after the three. And you thought I was only converted the last night! :p

Well, that's because I didn't realize you were a wolf until that last Day I was alive. :rolleyes:

Gurthang if you come back will you give us another list of doom so we can have one last untainted list? It seems to have been very effective so far and I think 4 is a good number.

When I read that, the only thing I thought was: "Oh, Crap! morm's a wolf!" Hearing that request for another list would have sounded completely innocent coming from anyone else, but you.... you're too calculating and smart to want the list. I was so sure that you were trying to narrow down the 'possibly gifted' list that I would have done this:

Here's your list:

++mormegil

Kill 'em.

Unfortunately, Kuru posted the Wizard Battle before I could say anything about it. Luckily, spawn got you that Night.

Speaking of which... was it the family thing that tipped you wolves off to my gifteds? Or was it just a lucky guess? Say what you will about me choosing my family, but the only gifteds that survived for longer than the Night they were made were spawn, Kath, and Nilp. Caran and the phantom both died the Night I gifted them.

I think that me and my family should win, just because we were all on the same side for the whole game. :p

[Gurthang]

Oh, and before I forget: Congratulations to Roa. You pretty much kicked my butt.

LMP, what say you to starting a Dueling Wizards Suggestion thread? That way we can talk about the game here, and give any thoughts and suggestions to the whole Wizards idea in another thread. Might keep things from piling up so much.

[Diamond18]

On another note, Diamond you were so dead on in the begginning

Er, I was? And here I keep thinking I was terribly wrong about everything, except for a few lucky gut feelings here and there.

Once we find out exactly what happened (I need some kind of clear diagram of who Roa cursed each and every night before I get it) I'm going to have to read back over the thread to see if it's all a little less confusing. :)

It was a very intense game. I had fun part of the time and wanted to die other parts. Excellent narrations by LMP, I have to say they were the longest and most detailed narrations I've ever seen! I'm eagerly awaiting the final narration.

Are you going to do something special with all those hearts, LMP? :eek:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Kit, Jenny and Morm were far more aware of the family-aspect of the gifteds; I was pretty clueless.

I thought the gifteds were two out of Spawn, Kath and Lalaith. We didn't think that Spawn was the Hunter so we were pretty devastated to find Morm dead in the morning. Kath was a strange one: she had made a post claiming that the villagers were in real trouble and I didn't think a gifted would say anything like that.

Caranlondien's guarding of me really should have led to my lynching after the gifteds were revealed. Really.

:p

[Diamond18]

LMP, what say you to starting a Dueling Wizards Suggestion thread? That way we can talk about the game here, and give any thoughts and suggestions to the whole Wizards idea in another thread. Might keep things from piling up so much.

There already is something like that. The "Taur-in-Gaurhoth Scenarios you'd like to See" thread, started by LMP. It's near the top of the page.

You did a wonderful job, Gurthang, I'm just sorry we couldn't win the game for you after you were gone. Those wolves were just too conniving.

[Diamond18]

Caranlondien's guarding of me really should have led to my lynching after the gifteds were revealed. Really.

:p

Oh rest assured, EoWolf, if we ever play together again I will not rest until you have died in a particularly nasty way....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Could we maybe get a list of the people who volunteered to be a wizard? After so many people thought I might be the Evil Wizard, I'll make explicit here what I was implying during the game: I didn't even volunteer! The reason I didn't sign up until as late as I did was because I was genuinely awed by the complexity of the game.

[Diamond18]

I volunteered. I despise being an ordo and volunteering to be a wizard seemed like the best way to insure I wouldn't have to be one.

[Cailín]

What a wonderful game!

I cannot believe that you did not lynch Eomer. Well, I shouldn't talk maybe. As an outsider, I find it far easier to spot the wolves. But… it's just incredible… Every time he's like: I'm innocent! How could I be a wolf? I should have been dead! I'd be the worst wolf ever! Yada yada. And every time the rest of us are like: Surely he cannot be bluffing again. Surely.

But of course he is.

Cailín, on that fateful night I was turned, I had no part in your death. That's the honest truth.

Yeah. Right.

*mutters* Evil. Wicked. Tricksy.

--

I'd love to see some stats for this game: who was turned when and how and why. Also, Elempi, why did you pick Gurthang and Roa (who both played their part perfectly)?

I did not volunteer, by the way, as everyone who closely read the scenario thread could have known.

[Nogrod]

This must be the best game I've followed! Sadly I hadn't a chance to play it but the first two days... :(

Myself and Naria were the "original" wolves (with the possible addition on Loki - I'm not quite clear with this: so did he know before day1 started that he was first a wolf and then an ordo, or not?). We didn't know about each other or about Roa being the EW.

One more "revelation" concerning the first days. We have a history in these games with Roa. I have always been the innocent, she has been the evil every now and then. In our first game together (my first ever) I was a seer and Roa a wolf. I picked up on anything I just could lay my hands on and went after her with some passion. As Roa noted in the Grimoire...
(I assign Nogrod as a seer to Mordor. That was rotten luck.) :D
Well, now she paid me back with similar handling. Although I readily admit her being much better in it in this game.

And really, in the end of day2 I started really to believe that Roa was the EW. She was so sure about her case on me, building it on every possible loose sentence or double-meaning, twisting all my sayings to her way. No-one dares to do that if one doesn't know what one is talking about. And as we had no seer with a dream around, well, she had to be the EW. So I couldn't kind of come up with any major efforts of counter-attacking or the like. Oh the frustration! :rolleyes:

Special admiration:
Valier's hunches are just incredible! (And Roa turning her to a wolf the next night was just brillliant - and daring - tactics, Valier might have been the seer, she seemed so comfortable with Roa's guilt)
At least Fea was also on the right track on that part of the game, and had some good points to back them.

The remaining wolf-gang was just pure excellence! Great gaming Eomer, Jenny, Kitanna and Morm!

And LMP! Just great work here! The whole idea of the wizard-game, that it got through with no major problems, and the family-idea and how it was brought into the narration! Just excellent!

Thanks everyone!

It was enjoyable, even just to read...

[Gurthang]

Hey, maybe I missed the boat here, and everyone else already knows, but I've really been wondering... who is Loki's "secret" friend?

Somebody thought it might have been me, but it's not.

And so I won't be wasting this post completely, here's some fun stuff:

I'll go ahead and cast a throw away vote.

+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

And Cailin had me... I don't know where, but she mentioned my name as a Wizard.

[Kath]

I thought it was morm, though that was just a guess.

[Cailín]

And Cailin had me... I don't know where, but she mentioned my name as a Wizard.

Actually, I had your name and Fea's down as the two wizards. I never took myself seriously, though. But when Fea started the Day of the duel by saying 'will you challenge, Gurthang?' for a while I thought I had the most brilliant intuition ever.

Was I disappointed. The award still goes to Valier.

In hindsight we should have known instantly. Roa and Gurthang were the only two explicitly defending Loki on Day One.

[JennyHallu]

Hey I was defending Loki too! I was just hellishly busy and therefore largely ignored. Until it was too late...bwahahahahhaaha!!!

I was a Night 5 wolf, to those interested.

Honestly I am about ready to be innocent the whole game. I've played 6 times. I have been an ordo 4 times, 2 of those I was turned into a wolf. I've been evil the other two times. It's getting quite ridiculous. I was surprised I wasn't drempt of earlier for safety's sake...

[Valier]

That was the craziest game ever!!!!! I thoroughly enjoyed myself in this one. I was however only a wolf the day after my rampage on Roa, then lynched. I was sure if Roa was indeed the EW she would be wise to turn me to her side and it worked, she was indeed the EW. I did not know who any of the other wolves were, but I thought Morm came down on me a little hard after my switch to the dark side so I was pretty sure he was also a lupine. Great game from eveyone!!!

[Kitanna]

Kit, Jenny and Morm were far more aware of the family-aspect of the gifteds; I was pretty clueless.

I was as clueless as you until someone mentioned it after Spawn and Kath died. Then I just sort of pieced things together.

I finally survived until the end and I'm glad to have done it with such sneaky teammates. Also ever since Morm got me lynched in my very first WW I've always been afraid of his wolfing skill and never wanted to be against him again, so I'm real glad I finished off the game on his side.

But a great game by everyone. It was one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played in.

[littlemanpoet]

I promise that the narrations will be coming. Now that I'm not under the gun for them, I plan on really juicing the last ones. :D

LMP, excellent modding. The family and relationship aspect especially made your narrations brilliant fun. I've been meaning to ask for a while now, is the Dueling Wizards concept your own?Uh, yes, it was my own. *LMP shrugs* I wanted to do a werewolf game that had a really strong Tolkienean thematic feel to it (at least to me), and I wanted to see if I could do something sort of like Saruman versus Gandalf, and then the creative juices got going. The rest is, as they say, history. Great fun modding. :)

LMP, what say you to starting a Dueling Wizards Suggestion thread? That way we can talk about the game here, and give any thoughts and suggestions to the whole Wizards idea in another thread. Might keep things from piling up so much.Good thought. I'll do that. There is that "Scenarios you'd like to see" thread, but I think there will be enough discussion regarding "dueling wizards" to get its own thread.

Are you going to do something special with all those hearts, LMP?You'll just have to wait for the narrations.

Could we maybe get a list of the people who volunteered to be a wizard?Sure. Here you go:

Kath
Diamond
Roa_Aoife
Valier
Sleepy Ranger
mormegil
Gurthang

I asked Kuru and Boro for their opinions, which I considered in my selection. I'll let them say any more about that themselves.

I'd love to see some stats for this game: who was turned when and how and why.Coming.


... did Loki know before day1 started that he was first a wolf and then an ordo, or not?Yes he did.

And now, the List:

Night One
ew: Nogrod, Naria, Loki
gw: Loki
2 werewolves: Nogrod & Naria
kill: Elempi
Note: Loki cursed then uncursed in the same night; he knew .... and bragged about it.

Night Two

ew: Alcarillo
gw: Nilpaurion Felagund - - seer
dream: none
werewolves: Nogrod, Naria, Alcarillo
kill: The Saucepan Man
Note: Good Team strategic error #1: seer did not dream.

Night Three

ew: mormegil
gw: the phantom becomes the hunter
seer: Cailín (innocent)
the hunter: no pick
werewolf kill: the phantom
Note: the phantom refused to pick, wanting to discuss picks with the GW; he never got a chance.
Note#2: Valier's instincts should have been paid greater attention. We mods & submods were frankly boggling over how right-on she was about EVERYONE. Fuzzy logic, maybe, but on tarret.

Night Four

ew: Valier, Eomer, Nilpaurion
gw: Spawn
seer: Firefoot
werewolf kills: Gurthang, Cailín
Note: Gurthang was not killed but knew that he had been found out.
Note #2: Good team strategic error #2: naming the innocents far, far too early.

Night Five

ew: Jenny joins Alcarillo, Mormegil, & Eomer.
gw: Kath
seer: (Kath): no dream
hunter: (Spawn): Nilpaurion
werewolf kills: A. Firefoot. B. Nilpaurion
Note: Good team strategic error #3: the seer again fails to dream.

Night Six

ew: Kitanna
gw: Caranlondien
seer: (Kath) Roa dreamed of as Evil Wizard
ranger: (Caranlondien) protecting Eomer
hunter: (Spawn) hunted Sleepy Ranger
werewolf kills: Lommy & Caranlondien
Note: Good Team strategic error #4: gifted picks all in the family ... way too obvious.

Night Seven

seer dream: Diamond
hunter quarry: Mormegil
kill 1: Dancing Spawn
kill 2: Kath

Night Eight: Glirdan

Night Nine: Zali (narrative coming soon)

In my dry runs, I assumed that the Good Wizard would closely guard his/her known innocents as if they were a most prized possession. I was stunned when the innocents were named, and not surprised when Roa quickly dispatched them.

Narrative to come later tonight....

[Boromir88]

If I remember all that I said about the EW was that I would not choose morm, because he's a solid player and would probably be scried/found out early on. And you did not want the wizards gone in the early going.

Now I apologize to morm, because seeing his conversations and so forth I think he would have made a very good EW. :rolleyes: Morm, I officially give you the right to throw whatever you like at me. :p (This of course doesn't mean that Roa didn't do a fine job...the best EW by far!) :cool:

My hats off to her with the excellent stragedy of sacrificing some of her wolves (sorry Valier and Nogrod), and getting a set of wolves that put the village in awful spots.

[littlemanpoet]

Lalaith's parents had researched the lorebooks carefully and found one small instance of a name in an otherwise sad history of Men that struck their fancy. Sindarin for 'laughter' seemed just right for their little bundle of joy, and so they named her. Little did they know what fate awaited her.

She had lived her entire life in Sealville, and had made friends of the other women who either did not marry or found themselves without husband by fate. Married women looked upon her as frivolous and overly delicate. She knew this. And so she spent her time with Feanor, Valier, and Jenny. These four formed a clique that, unhappily, did not serve them so well when the Curse came. As the lorebooks of Sealville show, two of them were cursed to be werewolves, and two were not. Perhaps Lalaith was luckier than Feanor.

Things did not go well on the new day. Lalaith voted early for Eomer and stated her reasons. Eomer, Jenny, and Kitanna built a case against Lalatih, and the unfortunate Zali cast the deciding vote before Diamond and other villagers even had a chance to say anything.

Kitanna cried, "Quorum!" The four led the one to the beech tree.

"How fitting that the aunt shall suffer the same fate as the niece," murmured Eomer to Jenny, out of earshot of Zali.

"Any last words?" Kitanna asked.

"Yes," Lalaith said coolly, her eyes narrowing. "I'm looking at three werewolves and one dupe."

"A pity," said Eomer, and kicked the stool out from beneath Lalaith's feet. She died and did not change into a dead werewolf.

Eomer, Kitanna, and Jenny now turned to Zali.

"Woof!" said Jenny, smirking.

"Woof woof!" said Kitanna, grinning.

"Woofa woof woof!" yeowled Eomer, fangs suddenly listening.

Zali screamed and fled. The did not wait until sundown, which was still three hours off; they knew they had beaten the entire village. They gave chase and ran Zali down not a minute out of Sealville. They made hay of her anachronistically pinaforish gown with matching parasol, ripped out her heart and howled wolfishly over it, crooning to it as if they were phantom in love. Then they fell upon Zali with an appetite that could only be called, well, wolfish.

***********

The next morning, Eonwe, Feanor, and Diamond gathered at the Watcher Rock along with Eomer, Kitanna, and Jenny. There they observed a new grave, where Lalaith now lay, and what was left of phantom's love.

"We're dead," Diamond said in a hollow voice. "Would that I had been slain sooner."

"We would be most gratified," Eomer murmured, "to fulfill your wish."

With that the werewolves overpowered the three remaining villagers and took their hearts before finishing their feeding frenzy.

***********

That night, the three werewolves filed into Roa's basement and proferred the spoils of human hearts to the Shadow.

"You have done well, my werewolves," the Shadow purred. "One of you will become my new wizard. I shall meld these hearts into the power to make it so. Which one will it be?"

The three werewolves looked at each other with sudden hate and fear. Each of them wanted to be the next wizard. A murderous rout began. Fur was gouged. Blood flowed. Growlings and roars and howls were released from savage throats. Finally one werewolf struggled to its feet and waited for the Shadow's wizarding.

************

The Watchers turned and faced each other.

"This village has died," said the Lady.

"One survives and will spread the curse to another village," said the Man.

"Maybe we can somehow convey what must be learned from this village's sad doom," she said.

The Man nodded. "The innocent villagers failed to find common ground."

"It is most difficult when an evil wizard plays them like find strings of a lute."

"Yes, but they allowed her to play them so. They loved their families too well, their friends not enough."

"'Tis hard not to put loved ones first."

"Aye, but those not family must not be ignored."

"The good wizard's seers did not dream," the Lady said.

"A most unfortunate complacency killed this village," the Man said.

"Not least of the evils that befell this village, was that many fled the battle."

"Maybe," the Man said, "in the next village the innocent will take greater courage."

"Would that we could do more!" the Lady cried.

"Nay, we could; but our oath holds us back, as you know. Did we break our oath, it would have been much the worse for this village."

The Lady nodded. They stood and buried the three remaining corpses, then walked out of Sealville, following the path of the Shadow to the next village; they could see its trail of darkness as a stain upon the land.

The village of Sealville was reclaimed by the winds and rains and the slow onset of the dust of years. The lorebooks the villagers had gathered remain buried in the houses of the slain to this day.

[Firefoot]

I know I was rather disappointed when I saw that my name had been revealed as innocent. I pretty much expected to die that night, and lo and behold... but it probably worked out for the better that way. That week just got busy for me - my grandparents were visiting, and I only see them once or twice a year, and then it was my brother's Confirmation on Sunday - I just wasn't going to have as much time. But I was still disappointed.

Hats off to LMP for an excellent idea that worked out beautifully. Wonderful narrations, too.

[Loki]

My hat goes off to Roa. She played magnificently as an evil wizard. The bluffs and double bluffs pulled were played quite well. Everything about the way she played was pulled off flawlessly. However, despite that, the "evil" side was off balance. It would have taken a great amount of luck (i.e. - The good side discovering the indentity of the evil wizard early in the game) to throw the balance otherwise. Still, she did well. Points. I don't think it could have been better-played. From now on, however, I think we should just lynch Roa on principle.

Morm-- Nice. All around, you did very, very well.

LMP-- I found the rules to have a number of flaws. Te method of implementing the hunter was, in my view, an unfair method of play in an attempt to offset the unbalanced side of evil. A good job on the narrations. Liked what you did.

Valier-- You're wierd. There was no proof that Roa was the EW. No idea how on earth you could have known that.

Props, Gurth. You played as best you could for your position. As well as Roa, I say. You simply had the odds placed unnecessarily against you.

Nilp-- I'm sick of typing out the full compliments. Suffice it only to say that you did well.

Nogrod, you did very well. Were it not in Roa's plan, you would have lived for several more days. Everyone was being unbelievably ignorant in the beginning. I can't imagine how no one had realized that he was a wolf. Mad job for playing to your crowd like that.

Directed towards no one in particular, I find that this particular game is based primarily on luck. Luck on guessing who might be the EW. And with all of the confusion from so many players, chances of a correct guess were remote. It was not entirely the vilagers fault that they lost. Though they did largely contribute to it.

Also, villagers, I found that you all played quite poorly in this game. It need not have been so poorly done on your end. It was folly to lynch me in the beginning. You allowed yourselves to be lead astray by Nogrod, and voted in a horrible way. "I voted for Loki because I found him insulting." "I voted for Loki because his style of play bothered me." "I voted for Loki because he disturbed me." These "reasons" are no better than voting for me strictly because you don't like me. And that, my friends, shows that you have failed in this game. In the future, don't be so biased and, quite frankly, stupid. Yes, that's right. I said that your decision was stupid. Not you; I said your vote. It was completely pointless.

Yes, it was true-- the first night I was chosen by both the EW and GW. Fools.

There were far too many quiet players in this game. It grossly unbalanced the gameplay. Something ought to be done about that. I have no suggestions on how to fix that.

Funny, though, how accurate I was with my predictions of evil. Nogrod, Diamond, and Roa. Strike out Diamond...

Summary: Good job, some of you. Most of the rest of you just played horribly. Maybe I'll see you in the next game. Maybe.

[Diamond18]

*ksssh* A moment of static, then a voice is heard over the loudspeaker:

"Cleanup on Aisle 7. Someone's ego just exploded and whooeeeeee it made one heckuva mess."

[Formendacil]

Excellent game, village- both the good and evil members thereof. I've not read the thread in its entirety (way, way, way... too many pages), but I've followed the narrations closely, and what I have is testimony to memorable game. Now, a couple of comments from a new player must be answered, methinks...

Also, villagers, I found that you all played quite poorly in this game. It need not have been so poorly done on your end. It was folly to lynch me in the beginning. You allowed yourselves to be lead astray by Nogrod, and voted in a horrible way. "I voted for Loki because I found him insulting." "I voted for Loki because his style of play bothered me." "I voted for Loki because he disturbed me." These "reasons" are no better than voting for me strictly because you don't like me. And that, my friends, shows that you have failed in this game. In the future, don't be so biased and, quite frankly, stupid. Yes, that's right. I said that your decision was stupid. Not you; I said your vote. It was completely pointless.

Day 1s. :rolleyes:

Best get used to it, if you plan to keep on playing... we are a divided camp where Day 1s are concerned, and as a member of the Dislike-Day 1s camp, I can fully see voting for someone whose style of play irked me. You nail it on the head in saying that it's the same as voting for you because we don't like you. That's the name of the game on Day 1. Being charming, modest, humble, handsome is definitely the way to go on Day 1. (If that's the case though, then how have I survived? :p )

There were far too many quiet players in this game. It grossly unbalanced the gameplay. Something ought to be done about that. I have no suggestions on how to fix that.

Again, get used to it... there's some in every batch. Some who can't help it (for unexpected reasons) and some who are out of habit.... the only way to deal with them is to lynch them. Pity.

Most of the rest of you just played horribly. Maybe I'll see you in the next game. Maybe.

Further to my first response to your post... that's an excellent way to get yourself lynched there. :rolleyes:

Now, back to talking to the lot of you in general...

I still don't fully understand this game... seems dreadfully complicated. But I have to hand it to LMP that it played out brilliantly, as well as more similarly to a regular Werewolf game than I would have expected. Kudos!

[Cailín]

I'm surprised to see how few people actually volunteered! And that Kath was among them. The others I had expected, but I thought there'd be more. Bunch of cowards we all are, not volunteering for the part.

Loki - obviously you missed something about the dynamics of this game. You say we played poorly, but you were the one lynched on Day 1. It is extremely rare for newbies to get lynched on the first Day. That means you messed up. Bad luck, yes, tis part of Day 1, but you did something wrong as well. Seriously.

The game is not all about rationale and who is the smartest or luckiest. You can be so right in your judgement and still get killed by the mob. That's why it's also about playing other people. Social skills, careful flattery, batting your eyelashes, being generally appreciated. Behaving yourself. The way you play, some might find you amusing and some may find you irritating but no one is going to want to keep you around too long. In terms of this game, that means you're a poor player.

Thanks for all stats, Elempi, though you're being a little harsh on the poor good guys. ;) Wonderful final narrative and an overall excellent job modding. Also thanks to Boromir and Kuruharan - though neither of the wizards bothered to turn me.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Ten hours I spent online on my first two DAYs as Seer (sneaking in while working), and what does it get me?

Nothing. I miss the most important part of a game.

Anybody want to lend me enough to buy a plane ticket to a better timezone? Like, Finland, for example?

[Lhunardawen]

Bah! How long 'til you learn that Eomer must be killed DAY ONE?

So sorry I had to drop out, but it all worked for the best, RL-wise. Thanks for my suicide, Elempi. :)

Now everyone, back to work! :p

[Thinlómien]

Anybody want to lend me enough to buy a plane ticket to a better timezone? Like, Finland, for example?Maybe we could take a collection for you? :p

I lived to play in this game though I was rather surprised to be killed by the wolves. I usually tend to survive to the end, or die by lynching.

I was also quite surprised of so many people stating that I wouldn't be a good pick for the EW because I usually gather so much suspicion early. I've never noticed that! :eek: I'm always suspected a bit, but usually it's a clear minority that suspects me. In the mid-game I tend to get nearöy lynched, but am really lynched quite seldom.

And I really was so frustrated with Roa all the time I was alive. Positively frustrated; she didn't make me angry or anything like that. I continuosly suspected her, but as I first thought she is very probably the seer or the GW ( :rolleyes: ) and then later when she disappeared from Gurthang's list I thought she was the new hunter. So, I never got to voice my suspicions, since there was always some suspicion of her and I feared that if I added to it, she'd be lynched. Thinking about it now, that would have been only a good thing to do...

Night Five
----------
hunter: (Spawn): NilpaurionI can very well see spawn's reasoning here, but... Am I the only one who finds this amusing?

[The Saucepan Man]

First of all, to those who think that it is only non-students who have sufficient time to devote to the intricacies of being a Wizard, you have a shock awaiting you when you graduate ...

As has been shown, I did not volunteer to be a Wizard and never had any intention of doing so. It was bad enough simply trying to keep up on Day 1 and, as it was a weekend, I never really got into my stride.

Thus, I was incredibly disappointed to be killed on Night 2. Grrr! I shall never forgive Roa and her Wolves for that. I suspect that Nogrod nominated me in revenge for the last game ... ;)

It was, perhaps, just as well though as it did mean that I had more time to devote to work and family. The most frustrating thing was that I had only just had the chance to review in more detail what had happened on Day 1, apply my mind to it and work up a bleedin' great post when I found out that I was dead. I was not expecting that as I was rather banking on the fact that the evil team might be interested in my services later in the game. :rolleyes:

To engage in a little trumpet blowing, I had overnight worked out that Nogrod was most probably a Wolf and that the Evil Wizard was likely to be either Diamond, Fea or Roa. I suspected that the phantom might be the Good Wizard and that his advice to the GW was a way of masking it. So I got it into my head that the two opposing Wizards were TP and Fea. But Roa was most definately on my list.

As for the Loki thing, I was working on the assumption that a player chosen by both Wizards would not be told of this. That's why I misutrusted his claim. It was foolish to lynch him though, as he was either telling the truth or, if he was not, behaving too recklessly for a Wolf.

And, in the same vein, I would add to the list of mistakes by the good side. Lynching both Sleepy and Oddwen (as well as Loki) for their "suspicious" behaviour was a classic error - committed not once, not twice, but three times! Wolves rarely act that suspiciously. I have learned from experience that it's the ones who act least suspiciously that you should always fear.

Great game, though, everyone. I was disappointed to be killed so early on, but read on with interest. And greatly flattered by all the reasoning as to why I had been killed. :D

Kudos to lmp and his able assistants, Boro and Kuru, for an wonderfully modded game. And congratulations, I suppose, to Roa and her pack, who played an excellent game. I claim my part in the victory, by virtue of my offspring, Naria and Kitanna (not to mention my father- and sister-in law).

You are right, Celuien. Where on Arda did we go wrong with them?

[Nogrod]

Thus, I was incredibly disappointed to be killed on Night 2. Grrr! I shall never forgive Roa and her Wolves for that. I suspect that Nogrod nominated me in revenge for the last game ... ;)

Sorry to disappoint you, but this one you got wrong. I had a couple of nominees to kill and none of them was you. I thought you would be a good sport later in the game and wouldn't like to see you go so early. I hate wolves who kill the interesting players to begin with. That's cowardish gaming.

But the EW decides when the wolves can't agree on it...

[mormegil]

I must apologize to Valier because we chose her to specifically be cannon fodder. I found a point of attack the previous day and it helped to fit into my 'theory' that she was the wolf converted on the night that I was converted. I thought that this would help cover my tracks a bit. So during a discussion with Roa we decided it would be a good idea to convert her and attack her. I also gained permission to attack Alcarillo as I found it difficult to lay off him after I started my attack.

The most difficult thing about being a wolf was not knowing who are your allies. I could find suspicious things in people, Alcarillo for example, but I never knew if he was in fact a wolf until I went after him. Also I found shifting alliances was a bit difficult on the first day of conversion; I only hoped that I wouldn't be scried by Gurthang and changed back and have to shift alliances again :eek: .

SpM if it were up to me I would have left you in longer.

[Kitanna]

I claim my part in the victory, by virtue of my offspring, Naria and Kitanna (not to mention my father- and sister-in law).

You are right, Celuien. Where on Arda did we go wrong with them?
It's all Eomer's fault, he's such a bad influence. ;)

[Oddwen]

And I knew as soon as I reviewed the thread the Night I died, that it was you three. :p

Great game all, kudos to LmP for modding it and to the evil team for the win. I apologize for my horrible game, and rest assured all future mods, I won't be playing in any more unless I somehow manage to develop into a good strategic player. :rolleyes:

*mutters*Knew I should have gone after Kitanna the day before, knew it knew it*/mutters*

[Diamond18]

And, in the same vein, I would add to the list of mistakes by the good side. Lynching both Sleepy and Oddwen (as well as Loki) for their "suspicious" behaviour was a classic error - committed not once, not twice, but three times! Wolves rarely act that suspiciously. I have learned from experience that it's the ones who act least suspiciously that you should always fear.

While I reserve the right to respectfully disagree about Loki (;)) I was extremely frustrated by the deaths of Sleepy and Oddwen. Sleepy, I did not vote for because I didn't honestly find him wolvish, but I was frustrated enough with him not really explaining his votes or participating in any discussion that I went ahead and voted Lalaith instead of votoing Jenny (which I believe would have got her lynched instead, as I recall the count was Sleepy 3 and Jenny 2 and the clinching vote against Sleepy was cast after mine -- ie I could have made a 3-3 tie in which Jenny was killed). But that was the problem with sticking too closely to my list of likely wolves... I believe it was Morm, Lalaith, Kitanna, and Eomer at the top and when Morm died I was bolstered by this and decided to get Lalaith or die trying. *sigh* The Oddwen vote I am still kicking myself for (Sorry Oddwen!) because I realized even as I committed the act that it was the same bad reasoning that had got an innocent Sleepy killed. But as no one had voted for Lalaith that day, and Lalaith had voted Eomer, I went with my anti-Lalaith stance and voted to save Eomer. That day was a general disaster for me though -- you might (or might not) have noticed that I only posted twice that day, because I was feeling quite frustrated by the whole thing.


It's all Eomer's fault, he's such a bad influence. ;)

Say, does this count as a Lovers victory? ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A tragic lovers' victory too, as at least one of us is now dead. Where is this story going, LMP?

I was quite pleased with my excellent record of voting only for Werewolves when I was innocent, and then only for innocents when cursed. It's amazing isn't it? This village spilled more Werewolf blood than any other — 5 of the beasts in all — yet still lost to another 3 at the end. This town had it bad...

[Oddwen]

thread post count 1,041 (search.php?searchid=471650#), thread views 15,404
:eek: This thread's been viewed more than most RPGs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Man, did LMP miss out on some serious commercial gain. :rolleyes: ;)

[JennyHallu]

But what were the hearts for?

[Gurthang]

Okay, I see I need to do a little clearing up...


ATTENTION: MONDO-SUPER-MEGA-UBER IMPORTANT (er...) THING IN THIS POST. YOU DO NOT WANT TO MISS IT!


Okay, first off, LMP, all those little Good Team Fatal errors, those were not my fault. (And don't get me started on my Quirks in the Rules Fatal to the Good Team list. :p)I mean, that first Night the Seer didn't dream... well, umh... okay, maybe that one was me. But the second time, oh, that one... okay, so maybe that was me again. :rolleyes:

Now, as far as the naming innocents, it was Nilp who came out. But he had no point not to. The Evil team obviously knew that he was the unSeer already, so he had no one worth hiding from. I did cringe when he named Firefoot as his innocent.

And that whole family thing... well, I still hold to the fact that my family-gifteds out survived my non-family-gifteds by a ratio of:... oh, that'd be INFINITY, wouldn't it. Something like 9 Days/0 Days. Ironic somehow. True, it was obvious at the end, but they still out survived the others by far.

Okay, sorry, so that wasn't all that important.


HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART!


I've heard a lot of people comment on the brilliant strategy that Roa used when she turned Valier into a wolf. All credit to her, but that was actually her undoing.

The Day that Valier was lynched, the whole time I was thinking, if Valier is a wolf, then Roa is very likely the Evil Wizard. This was partially because she changed her stance over that Night. The Day Valier came out and said Roa was the Evil Wizard, Roa's response was: "She's just a misguided innocent." The next Day she was all for lynching her.

So Valier is lynched Day 5. At that moment I was so sure that Roa was the Evil Wizard. But here's what killed it, and in my mind was the single biggest rule related factor in our loss(sorry LMP, had to get just one): the Good Team could not PM at Night!

This meant I could not dream of her Night 6. So I took her off the list:

1. So we would not waste a lynch. (And look, we got a wolf!)
2. To throw her off.

Then I waited all Day 6, and all through Night 7 before I got my dream result. Had I been allowed to PM my Seer, I would have known for sure Night 6, and she would have been dead a Day earlier.

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good? :p

[littlemanpoet]

Night Five
----------
hunter: (Spawn): Nilpaurion
I can very well see spawn's reasoning here, but... Am I the only one who finds this amusing?

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ;) ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.

Say, does this count as a Lovers victory?Yes, I noticed that too. Both lovers, Kitanna and Eomer survived to the end, but as co-werewolves. Go figure.

A tragic lovers' victory too, as at least one of us is now dead. Where is this story going, LMP?I wanted to have the Shadow offer a werewolf the evil wizard role, as a kind of ironic evil twist. So I wrote in the end-battle. It does suggest that this particular tragedy happened elsewhere in the early third age. It gives me an opening for Dueling Wizards 2, of course! Someday... unless someone else wants to mod it. I think it would be fun to actually play it....

But what were the hearts for?I didn't work them into the narration as well as I had wanted to, I must confess. The Shadow uses them as a source of power to create the new evil wizard. I could have gotten graphic, but chose not to.

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good?The game was not going the way it was supposed to. And no, that does not mean that the Good Team was going too Good. The fact is, Roa complained that it was unfair. I judged that she was right. What you need to understand, though, is that she only complained about the Hunter rule being vague, and was asking for some kind of redress, such as the Hunter rule being weakened. As you all know by now, I don't like a weak hunter. So I refused to weaken the hunter, but offered an extra curse for the Night. After further thought, I realized that Night One hadn't gone right either, and on my own initiative awarded Roa a third curse for that Night, to make up for the uncursing of Loki, which should not have occurred. Roa even PM'd me to say that in the interest of fair play she was willing to not curse at all the following night. I chose not to go with that option. So all blame for any of that falls upon me, and me alone; it was my decision. And I do stand by it. There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.

....the Good Team could not PM at Night!Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, I'm back! Since I'm sure you're dying to see my strategy, here it is:

Who I picked, When and Why:

Night one
Loki- The much debate Loki was chosen for a few reasons. Pre-game he showed far greater compentancy than most new players who join up. I figurede he'd be a strong player who wouldn't be suspected early on because no-one would believe him to be a good EW choice. (I was right, wasn't I?) Also, I believed that his untested status would make him less likely to be picked by the GW at any point. (There I was really wrong.)

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you. Except Nogrod, who did what he was supposed to do. And I was happy to take advantage of it all.

Nogrod- Partly personal, partly practical. I was actually hoping to keep him around as a wolf a lot longer. As he's never been evil before, no one would know what behavior to look for to show him as evil. After his Day One attack on Loki, however, I decided to have some fun and enjoy sweet, sweet revenge for our first game together. :D

Naria- Naria is a werewolf ninja. Seriously. How many people suspected her up to her death? None. None whatsoever. I'm sure some of you were surprised to find out she was playing. Not because she never posts- oh no- but because of how she posts. You never know she's there until she's killing you. I have to say I was quite sore about losing her to a change in the rules.

Night two
Alcarillo- what can I say? I wanted someone who would survive just long enough to to keep my werewolf population up, but could still be used later either by me or another wolf. (No offense, Alc.)

Night three
Morm- Morm was doing so well, and was just so on top of things, I had to have him on my team. And I was glad that he was. He offered helpful suggestions and player analysis to find gifteds and the GW- he was the one who suggested the attack on Gurthang. He was the most informed of any of my wolves. I was worried that he might be scried by Gurthang, and so I had informed Boromir that if morm was turned back into an ordo he was to be killed. I was that worried about him as an enemy.

Night four
Eomer- After everything that went on with morm's goose chase, I figured no one would believe him to be turned after that point, and up till that point no one believed him guilty. I also knew that he could manipulate the crowd in the event that something happened to morm. Yes, Eomer was my back up morm.

Valier- I couldn't resist. I was worried that she might be the seer, but decided to risk it- best case I had a new wolf, worst case I got rid of the seer. If Valier had been turned into an ordo, I was going to have her killed. Then only the GW coming out and revealing Valier as seer would have tipped any one off. (And yeah, I think I could have talked my way out of it. :p )

Nilp- Because he possesses the same ninja-ness as Naria, though with perhaps a bit more noticeable. Having only played two games with him, I don't know if this is true to pattern or not- but it seems that if he survives Day One, he lasts for quite a while. Over all, he seemed to be a good choice to have on my team. Not once did I suspect him as seer. (Just like in that game with Naria!)

Night five
Jenny- Jenny makes such a good wolf. I knew that her skills and lack of suspicion so far would be a good asset to my side. I had looked at her earlier, but decided against it (just in case she was dreamed of...).

Night six
Kitanna- she had been on the list of doom, and so I knew she wasn't gifted, but she had garnered no votes and little suspicion, and so I knew she was likely safe for the rest of the game.

Who I killed and Why

Night two
SPM was Alcarillo's suggestion. I went with it for a few reasons. Saucie good is too much of a danger to deal with. Saucie bad is a likely dream, or worse- scry. And I figured Alca could talk his way out of it long enough for my purposes.

Night three
I saw the suggestion to the GW, and I thought that the GW might just try it. I also thought that he would likely pick an innocent as well. Plans fail sometimes.

Night four
Gurthang and Cailin were both attacked because they were likely seer choices.

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

Night six
Lommy and Caran were again killed as likely gifted choices. I noted that Lommy had been under suspicion but hadn't ended up on Gurthang's list of doom, and Caran was just clean the whole game. I don't recall her ever being looked at.

Other moves

First, just to get this out of the way- My objection to Gurthang's plan was genuine, and had nothing to do with being the EW. I do not like having other people think for me. I despise being told what I can and cannot do when I know that the person telling me what to do is as lost as I am. (Even though I wasn't really lost, but that's beside the point.) I absolutely cannot stand being controlled in any fashion. My vote for Valier really was made in a huff.

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.

Third, I never intended to survive. I was constantly looking to set up the best situation for my wolves, and then take out the GW to keep gifteds from popping up. So, the whole game I was trying to survive just long enough to die. I found out from LMP that the wizards would be removed shortly after a challenged was issued (because I made it a point to ask) so I challenged right after being found out to prevent another list from showing up. I knew that with out it, the village would be completely lost. If you look at the voting record that day, you'll see I was right.



And now, Gurthang, you really did have a difficult hand, as is always true of the good team in these games. Despite that, you did fantastically, and I found you to be a worthy adversary.

My thanks to Boromir for being our mod- he was very obliging, and I was very demanding.

Kuruharan, I didn't work with you, but I hear tell you did a good job.

Finally, congratualtions to LMP for such an amazing game. A new concept is always going to have rough patches, but you managed it really well. Your family concept also made it fun, and added some intriguing elements to the game. Your narrations were beautiful, as well. I give you a standing ovation.

[mormegil]

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

I was the only wolf, I believe, that fought for at least one of them to live. I wanted Nilp killed but Firefoot to remain living. The reason behind this would be to cause utter confusion in the village and most likley the lynching of an innocent Firefoot. If she wasn't killed he village would be left wondering if she was converted by the EW who wanted to use her 'known' innocent status as a shield. There was no way Gurthang was choosing her as a seer because we most likely would be killing her. I disagreed with this kill as I found it unoriginal and a bit boring but in the end it served our purposes.

[Gurthang]

There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.
True, so very true. First times are always somewhat like test runs. I guess somewhat similar to Day 1s. :rolleyes: :D

Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.
I think that would solve a lot of the problems I was having. Truthfully, the ability to PM at Night is desirable enough that I would be perfectly willing to let the Evil Team talk during the Day. Well, I probably won't have to worry about it, as becoming the Good Wizard again is so close to impossible that it makes no difference. But yeah, I want to make sure that the next Dueling Wizards game is a bit closer.

[Gurthang]

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.
Whether I imagined it or not, I felt like I saw a change, and it's part of the reason I was so sure you were the EW.

I've got to tell you, though, your wolf choices were brilliant. We were lucky to catch some of them, or maybe not lucky, as you sacrificed them, but the ones we didn't catch... well, we never would have. So you did an amazing job in that aspect. Oh, and truthfully, you openly disagreeing with me almost made me mad enough to tell everyone to lynch you. But, it made me extremely indecisive about you as the EW. I thought it might be a bluff you would pull off, but also knew it could be a real qualm with the plan. Funny that is was partially right with both thoughts. Oh, and another stroke of brilliance was your quick coming out. That 'urgent business' was me trying to get a message to my gifteds telling them everything. Needless to say, they never got it. :rolleyes: *coughnoNightPMcough*

[littlemanpoet]

Needless to say, they never got it. :rolleyes: *coughnoNightPMcough*Needless to say, it turned out to be quite academic.
:rolleyes: *coughAllintheFamilyGiftedscough* :D

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Lmp, thank you for a fantastic game. It was nice to try something completely new, and I think all worked very well - at least I had lots of fun.

Kuru, thanks for great sub-modding and putting up with my inbox issues.

And of course, congrats, Evil Team, on the victory!

I think the only problem the Good Team had was... timezones. I don't know about Kath and Nilp, but at least I had troubles discussing with Gurthang due to time differences. In that sense it would have helped if the Good Team could have PMed during Night, too.

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ;) ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.I'm sure that would have been... interesting. :D

I liked the more powerful Hunter role. Now I didn't have to think what if someone isn't a Wolf and we'll lose a valuable innocent, but I was free to choose a villager whom I suspected regardless of their "reputation".

I was impressed by many innocents' accurate analysing in this game. They can't obviously trust anyone, and they know nothing for sure, but all the confusion and mistrust also brought up best strategical analyses I've seen in WWs. Also, everything was less chaotic than I had thought, but that's probably just a good thing. :D

[Diamond18]

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you.

I did believe him.

I voted to lynch him because I didn't want to have to spend the entire game listening to him talk about how great he is and how stupid the rest of us are. Thoughtless? Maybe. Gratifying? Definitely. Would I do it again? After his last post, without a doubt.

Roa, we obviously have diametrically opposed views on Werewolf. I think we should be able to have fun, and play the game without fear of constant condemnation (because, you know, it's just a game). So, I believe we may deal with insufferable louts who make playing unfun in our own ways, and if that makes me a terrible person and a bad player, so be it.... Feel free to lynch me on principle from now on. I'll understand. Just don't tell me how to play the game. (I cannot stress this enough.) I cite Cailín's excellent post on why the personality aspect is a viable part of the game and not to be taken lightly.

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.

[Gurthang]

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.
Truthfully, I agree with Roa. I don't think Loki was a bad pick. (obviously)

I was going to choose him for a few reasons. (Funny how I, and everyone, are assuming he's a guy... mostly due to his attitude. He's never actually made the distinction.)

1. He's a newbie, and likely to survive.

Face it. Most of us have soft spots for new guys. We want them to get a good feel for the game, and so don't usually lynch them for the first few days. I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

2. I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves.

Okay, like everybody, I want my chance to do something amazing. I got it in my first game as the first ever Black Beorning. I thought Loki deserved a shot at proving what he could do with a gift.

3. He seems intelligent to me.

Despite his in-your-face nature, from what I've seen he's a bright guy. I think he could have done a lot for either side. Hence him being wanted on both sides.


The whole spawn hunting Nilp after he was revealed thing. That was me. I didn't want to waste a scry on him because I thought he'd be killed, but at the same time I needed to make sure he wasn't a wolf. So, if he would have been turned, he would have been dead anyway, because spawn would have killed him. As it was, Roa took care of him. :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well that was fun. Wish I'd been around more to pursue Eomer and Kitanna (who I've been convinced were guilty for ages, especially Eomer (learn: he's never ever ever innocent if he lives past day one... EVER.). When I spotted the end, I knew... well... I knew I'd been right the whole time. :rolleyes:;)

Great playing, EVERYBODY. Fantastic narrations, LMP. That was a blast, even with my real[!!] RL issues. Haha. I loved that you were all like "is she really gone?" I was. :)

And Jenny... Again!?!? Hehe.

[Diamond18]

(Funny how I, and everyone, are assuming he's a guy... mostly due to his attitude. He's never actually made the distinction.)

I'm pretty sure he refered to himself as male in his first game post, when he used the third person narration.

Anyway, you're free to agree with Roa, but I think my point is proved by this:


I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

Yeah. If he hadn't been such a you-know-what he could have, should have, etc. But he was and he didn't. His pre-game attitude told me exactly what kind of player he'd be and how quickly he would die, and for good reason. And look what happened.

PS -- it also wasn't about the chosen one, it was the constant "I told you so" gloating, (when Paul was right to let the GW scry Night 1) the insane raving about the $20 restaurant fee, and the threats to grind people into the dirt and kick out their teeth.

[Diamond18]

That was a blast, even with my real[!!] RL issues. Haha. I loved that you were all like "is she really gone?" I was. :)

And Jenny... Again!?!? Hehe.

At least I was right about you. :p If you and Eomer had both been evil, I would just have to give up and declare my innocent-o-metre to be a non-entity. :)

[Nogrod]

1. He's a newbie, and likely to survive.

Face it. Most of us have soft spots for new guys. We want them to get a good feel for the game, and so don't usually lynch them for the first few days. I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

2. I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves.

Okay, like everybody, I want my chance to do something amazing. I got it in my first game as the first ever Black Beorning. I thought Loki deserved a shot at proving what he could do with a gift.

3. He seems intelligent to me.

Despite his in-your-face nature, from what I've seen he's a bright guy. I think he could have done a lot for either side. Hence him being wanted on both sides.

I agree with you on all this (especially in 2 & 3). And somehow I'm sorry I had to be one of those actually arranging his lynch on DAY1. But it was as well a surprise to just note that in five minutes I had gotten a three-vote lead in the lynching-line, the others behind me being Loki, Spm and Lommy. Clearly Loki was my best choice to try to lynch on that point instead of me.

But I also agree with Di and Cailín, that personality matters do get involved in these games, and Loki wasn't exactly the guy most people would like to stick around... that was one of the things I could count for during that evening. It was irrational, but it worked.

So Loki, please! You would make just an excellent WW-player, if you would cool down a bit (I'm the one saying this! :D But then again I have somewhat tried to tone down my playing from the first games). With all the boasting you'll face a high possibility of more DAY1 lynches to come. And I would really like to see you getting further in a game to show what you really can do there (I'm having expectations).

I mean people are brilliant in this game in different ways. If you truly are intelligent, you see it and accept it too... Just having an analytical mind doesn't get you far if you can't otherwise adjust youself to the game, and well, just playing with others, not just by yourself. :) (And I'm not saying this with any malice now, just as a suggestion for more enjoyable games)

[The Saucepan Man]

Yeah. If he hadn't been such a you-know-what he could have, should have, etc. But he was and he didn't. His pre-game attitude told me exactly what kind of player he'd be and how quickly he would die, and for good reason. And look what happened.I thoroughly agree with this. It was clear that he would be an abrasive player from his pre-game posts. That's why he was not on my list of likely Wolves and why I did not believe his claim (thinking that a player chosen by both Wizards would not be told of this). Either way, though, he should not have been lynched. He was clearly (in my view) innocent.

[Nogrod]

That's why he was not on my list of likely Wolves and why I did not believe his claim (thinking that a player chosen by both Wizards would not be told of this).I was under the very same impression and only started to think about it differently after Roa started her attack on me first on those grounds (that I knew that he knew - and that I knew the case... complicated stuff this WW-gaming sometimes :rolleyes: )

[mormegil]

Just don't tell me how to play the game. (I cannot stress this enough.) I cite Cailín's excellent post on why the personality aspect is a viable part of the game and not to be taken lightly.

But what if it is my style of play to try and take charge, which it is. Why should I change my style to suit yours? My point here is that I agree that the personality aspect is viable and we all have different personalities. You've gotten after me before for trying to take charge but I will continue it because I feel it is the best contribution I can give to WW.

[Boromir88]

I actually suggest trying a new style everytime you play. Or atleast, that's what I like to do, I like to mix it up and try new things to suit the village. Though I guess I've always been one of the blabber-mouths, at least I tell myself I'm playing different from past games. Anyway, it's just something that I like to do to amuse myself in a way :rolleyes: ...how will I play this game? And how will the village see my play?

[Alcarillo]

Night two
Alcarillo- what can I say? I wanted someone who would survive just long enough to to keep my werewolf population up, but could still be used later either by me or another wolf. (No offense, Alc.)
Ha! None at all. I was honored to have been chosen! :) Unfortunately, silence wasn't much of a disguise this time around.

A quick congrats to the victorious wolves. Roa had told me before my death that Eomer was another wolf, so I was praying that final day that Lal would be lynched (sorry, Lal).

Excellent game, everybody.

[Diamond18]

But what if it is my style of play to try and take charge, which it is. Why should I change my style to suit yours? My point here is that I agree that the personality aspect is viable and we all have different personalities. You've gotten after me before for trying to take charge but I will continue it because I feel it is the best contribution I can give to WW.

Personality conflicts are to be expected. I don't recall meaning to "get after" you, morm, though I of course haven't hesitated to disagree with you. If you are referring to when you told people to stop posting so much, well, I disagreed because I feel that was somewhat unfairly telling people how to play. We could get into a run-around of "My playing style is to tell others how to play, therefore telling me not to tell you how to play is telling me how to play," and on some technical level there's a point in that. So, I'll remedy that by amending my statement to, "Tell me how to play if you want but don't for a second expect me to obey." ;) Which is sort of like saying not to tell me how to play, only friendlier, because I have your waste of breath in mind. ;) If my playing is ever considered odious, of course, I invite anyone to lynch me for it as I can well understand the need to get rid of odiousness. I didn't vote to lynch you, morm, just because we had that disagreement over playing style, because I didn't consider it a lynching offense. Seeing as you were a wolf, maybe I should have. :p

Now, my statement you quoted was mostly directed at Roa's seeming assumption that she is an authority on good and bad judgement. Or that it even matters. It's a game, we're imperfect humans, we don't do things the way others think we should and that sometimes have bad results (I'm not going to stand here and say I'm proud of my Oddwen vote or my trust in the innocence of Valier, Eomer, and Jenny!) but for others to stand up like Loki and Roa and say things like "You played quite poorly" or "horribly" or "thoughtlessly" or with "bad judgement" is to assume that they themselves have never been wrong, made mistakes, or done things that were mistakes in the eyes of others. Trust me, when we do something wrong in Werewolf, we can figure it out pretty quickly on our own. Espeically if we're getting lynched for it. Some of us, anyway. And those that can't won't get it, period. Basically, there's no need for the firing line or the 100 lashes afterwards. (I would not even be posting this if Roa and Loki hadn't so charmingly offered their sparklingly criticisms -- unasked.)

Strong personalities and opinions such as your, mine, and Roa's are bound to clash. We may sometimes lose our tempers with each other, especially in a particularly tense game, and such cases there will be need for coolling off and apologizing for snapping too hard. We will, I suspect, always be debating these sorts of things. I will respond to things you and she say which I don't agree with, but I hope that we can keep even our strong arguments below the line of outright brawls, which is why I tend to overtype in explaining my motivations, rather than just saying "sod off" or something like that.

[the phantom]

1. I thought that a Night 2 wolf attack on me was fairly likely. I was sort of surprised to be picked as Hunter that night. I assumed the GW would pick a Ranger first. If I would've been made the Ranger, I would've protected myself, which would've been good since the Wolves attacked me. I refused to make a Hunter pick because the odds of hitting a wolf weren't good and I could not communicate with my Wizard during the Night to receive direction.

2. I was worried that a pick would be demanded from me. If I would've been forced to pick, Roa would've been my target. lmp- what would have happened in the game and in the narrative had I, the Hunter, picked the EW as my target?

3. Roa turned out to be a wizard, just like I said on Day 1! As the game went on and I watched from beyond the grave, I never changed my opinion on that. Also, I began leaning specifically towards Roa=EW (as opposed to GW) after I was killed. (sorry, but I just had to pat myself on the back for that) ;)

4. Gurthang was not my top suspect for GW, but at the same time I wasn't overly shocked to learn it was him.

5. The lack of Seer dreams- ouch.

6. Eomer- I had you pegged, m'boy. I believed you were a wolf, and Lalaith was innocent. You can't fool your brother. :p

7. I also believed fairly firmly in the innocence of Oddwen, Diamond, and Zali at the time of their deaths. Go me.

8. But on the other hand, I incorrectly suspected the innocent Glirdan, and I didn't particularly suspect wolves Nogrod and morm. Kudos to Spawn for taking morm down.

And one last thing. I'm just curious about this Roa. What did you think when I posted this on Day 1?
+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

[littlemanpoet]

I was worried that a pick would be demanded from me. If I would've been forced to pick, Roa would've been my target. lmp- what would have happened in the game and in the narrative had I, the Hunter, picked the EW as my target?You should have done it, phantom. You would not have been able to kill her, but you would have identified her and reported back to Gurthang that Roa was the EW. It would have created a likely good team win. In a real hurry.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

You should have done it, phantom. You would not have been able to kill her, but you would have identified her and reported back to Gurthang that Roa was the EW. It would have created a likely good team win. In a real hurry.But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...

What did you think of this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=469728&postcount=880) post?

[Gurthang]

But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?
That's what would make sense to me. And along those same lines, it really surprised me that Nilp was allowed to dream the Night he was turned back to an ordinary by Roa. According to the nightly order given to us, he should have been deSeerized before he got to dream at all. I suppose there is an explaination; I'd guess the whole giving Roa a second and then a third scry changed things a bit. LMP?

1. I thought that a Night 2 wolf attack on me was fairly likely. I was sort of surprised to be picked as Hunter that night. I assumed the GW would pick a Ranger first. If I would've been made the Ranger, I would've protected myself, which would've been good since the Wolves attacked me. I refused to make a Hunter pick because the odds of hitting a wolf weren't good and I could not communicate with my Wizard during the Night to receive direction.
Funny thing about that, is that I turned you into a Hunter, and then was catching up and read that you had asked me to. I was a little shocked that we had been thinking so much alike.

Oh, and I didn't want to make a Ranger, because they were practically useless. I couldn't tell him to protect my Seer without revealing my Seer to them, and that's not something I was willing to do.

[the phantom]

Just for your entertainment, Gurthang, here is the pm that I sent to Kuru after he informed me that I was changed into the Hunter.
If I survive the Night, please forward this to the GW.

The GW actually changed me? Wow. I figured for sure they'd be too worried about me dying.

Tomorrow, I was actually planning on (if I lived through the night) hinting strongly that I was the GW in an effort to get the GW and EW to scry me the same night, thus revealing the EW to the GW.

I honestly didn't expect this. Wow. I just hope I live through the night. I'd really like to be on the team with the GW for a while. The fact that the wolves killed Sauce has me worried though.

Well, with only two (plus one from tonight) wolves in a village of this size, I don't think it would be productive for me to make a Hunter pick before hearing from my Wizard. It would be damaging enough for me to be killed tonight. I would hate to damage the cause further by killing an innocent, or the Seer.

So, for tonight I pick no one.

GW, whoever you may be...

I am yours to command. If there is something you need done, let me know. Any thoughts you want to know, just ask.

I will be at work for the next five hours, so I might not be able to talk until after that.

your Hunter,
the phantom
I really hated to die so soon, but oh well, my death was useful to the village since it resulted in a Wolf death as well. Good job on that Gurth.

[Roa_Aoife]

And one last thing. I'm just curious about this Roa. What did you think when I posted this on Day 1?
Quote:
+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

I laughed, because I never take those things seriously on Day 1. It's usually just flitting around. But what gave me away?

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...

What did you think of this post?

That also amused me, because I knew all three of them could talk their way around it, and few people would take that evidence seriously when they did. I was impressed with your insight though.

And Diamond, the whole point of this after game discussion is to give thoughts and critiques on the game and the players. You don't have to read it. If you believed Loki, then you killed a known innocent in a game where those are a rare gift to have. You accuse me of judging your playing style, but you condemned him for his. That was spiteful and foolish. I don't claim to have never made mistakes, but I accept them and learn from them when they are pointed out to me. I do not attack the people who are kind enough to do so.

[Diamond18]

Wow, everything I say just goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it, Roa? A pity. But at least I know where we stand, which is a good thing.

[the phantom]

I laughed, because I never take those things seriously on Day 1. It's usually just flitting around. But what gave me away?
It was sort of a process of ruling out other people.

1) There were some that I was fairly sure wouldn't volunteer to be a wizard. This narrowed my list a bit.

2) I considered the moderating team, lmp, Boro, and Kuru, and thought about who they would or wouldn't pick for various reasons. This narrowed my list considerably.

3) I assumed that Loki was telling the truth, and thought about who would possibly pick him as a Seer or Wolf.

If I'm remembering right, only two (or was it three?) people made it through my Wizard test, and you came through looking the best out of them.

So there you go. :)

[mormegil]

Hot Chocolate and cookies anybody?


Well I'm glad to see that the phantom didn't suspect me. Though I didn't survive until the end that's a moral victory.

[Gurthang]

Well, I just realized (okay not just now, but just decided to post now) that this has, by far, been the most emotionally charged game I've ever seen. I suppose most of it is due to the fact that two players were picked to choose teams. And choosing teams has always caused some people to be left out. :(

Yet, it seems odd; mainly because the emotion is far more than I would ever have expected. Certain clashes due to playing style and the hurling of insults were more abundant here than anywhere I think I've ever seen on the 'Downs. Especially unique is the way this 'extra' emotion overflowed to the pre-game discussion and now even a little to the post-game discussion. Strange indeed. ;)

I am yours to command. If there is something you need done, let me know.
Oh, the possibilities! Well, I really did want you on my team, and yet again you surprise me with your thinking, because it seems similar to my own thoughts... somewhat.

I had a thought, sometime around Day 1 or Day 2, about having my hunter come out and claim to be the Good Wizard. Basically, this would give me a direct line of communication to the villagers without revealing myself to the EW. I wanted to get a wolf name first, just in case the Evil Wizard decided to 'check' that the real GW had come forward. Then the Hunter would simply have a wolf to kill.

Another reason I wanted to make a Hunter is because his death would narrow down the possible villagers who might have been the EW. Sort of sad to say, but I wanted to kill as many people as fast as possible to narrow down my choices. Looking back, that might not have been the best idea, but it all worked out in the short run. :rolleyes:

[Gurthang]

Hot Chocolate and cookies anybody?

Actually, I'd take milk with my cookies, if you've got any. :)


Well I'm glad to see that the phantom didn't suspect me. Though I didn't survive until the end that's a moral victory.
Sort of funny, because Nilp did suspect you... of being the Good Wizard. :D In fact, he actually asked me if I was you. Here's a bit of the PM that I got from Kuru from Nilp:

Monkey avvie, mage-type spirit. Complete my alliteration. ;)

Am I right?

[littlemanpoet]

But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?
Attacking Roa would not have killed the phantom. In the game just past, the phantom would have been able to inform Gurthang during the Day phase.

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...What did you think of this post?I personally thought that post was 'da bomb'.

it really surprised me that Nilp was allowed to dream the Night he was turned back to an ordinary by Roa.The second and third picks came AFTER the scries and dreams, etc. Good guess, Gurthang.

I found the whole game to be very revealing of the way things work in terms of the struggles between good and evil. Evil tends to have a leader who controls and uses the pawns; Good tends to have a leader who has trouble getting the rank and file to follow for all kinds of reasons. And that's just for starters. I knew it would work out that way, and was quite intrigued to see how it would do so.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I personally thought that post was 'da bomb'.
:):smokin:

Yeah... that's me. Da bomb. :cool:

Seriously though, my only point for this post is to, yet again, say that this was one heck of an emotionally charged and very awesomely played game. Props to everyone once more.

[Roa_Aoife]

Attacking Roa would not have killed the phantom. In the game just past, the phantom would have been able to inform Gurthang during the Day phase.

But we killed him. Even if he had attacked me, he was going to be killed anyways. He couldn't have attacked me otherwise. So, by the time he was allowed to PM Gurthang, he'd be dead, and out of the game. You changed the hunter role quite a lot, but it wasn't quite that far gone.

[Naria]

Absolutely wonderful game had by all!! No really, I think everyone did a really great job in this one! And yes, even you Phantom....that would be why I decided to get rid of you when I did("I"meaning the first wolf to get in a pick) I knew that you would be the Hunter, but I still couldn't have you around for another Day wreaking havoc for us wolves. That being said I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too much for your "kill" :rolleyes: .

From reading the DW discussion thread, I really think that Lmp has got some flaws ironed out and the next game should be pretty "safe" to play....and I just might like to join in again :p .

Applause for Roa! You made some wonderful choices(and wolves :D ). And thanks for the description of me.....although I don't know about the ninja part, but meh it sounds really cool.

Again, great game everyone and Lmp....superley-evil-gory narrations.

[Roa_Aoife]

If I'm remembering right, only two (or was it three?) people made it through my Wizard test, and you came through looking the best out of them.

This is something I found amusing- everyone figured me out through speculation and theorizing, not by any actual evidence. The same goes for most of the suspicions against my wolves. So, I guess that speaks to the skill on both sides. The bad side didn't slip up and give themselves away, but the good side figured it out through speculation. Too bad specualtion never works very well in lynching someone.

[Lalaith]

I'm glad I went on holiday. I needed one, to recover from the frustration.
I'll enjoy reading the post-mortem posts, now...

[Lalaith]

Having read through, here's a couple of questions I'd still like answered:
1. Did either of the wizards reveal their identity to any of their team at any point? Did they reveal their team-mates? Or were all team members (by this I mean gifteds and wolves) in the dark about everything?
2. What was the "warning" the Good Wizard received that was mentioned in the narration, as one of the reasons for the EW getting extra wolves?

[littlemanpoet]

Having read through, here's a couple of questions I'd still like answered:
1. Did either of the wizards reveal their identity to any of their team at any point? Did they reveal their team-mates? Or were all team members (by this I mean gifteds and wolves) in the dark about everything?
2. What was the "warning" the Good Wizard received that was mentioned in the narration, as one of the reasons for the EW getting extra wolves?
1. Mormegil learned that Roa was the evil wizard through a mishap, but Roa used it to her advantage.
2. The warning was buried in the narrative early on: the Watchers came to the good wizard and warned him that there would be an evil, and urged him to scry on Night One. It was my way of making a Night One scry believable in terms of the narrative. Moderator licence. Or licentiousness, if you like. I've learned a valuable lesson out of it. See the Dueling Wizards Suggestions thread for details.

[Naria]

Myself and Nogrod also knew Roa's identity fairly early on, I think it was Night 2 or something like that. We all were, however, in the dark about everything else ie: which wolf was which. I kinda liked it.....made for a much easier play. :D