T-I-G LVI: Panic at the Prancing Pony

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rune, I would like to apologise for signing up although I can't be around till deadline.
The quarrel between Rune and Brinn is ridiculous and, despite overreacting, it's not Brinn's fault.


I never said that you where not allowed to sign up if your RL is realy busy, but you should never use it as an excuse! Nor should you get mad if RL comitment effects your posts and people comment on them, this game is all about judging other peoples post and no matter what happens in RL it is still you who are responsible for what you post.

[Thinlómien]

I wouldn't make too much out of Mira defending Lari and Fea - they're her friends and this is her first game. In fact, I think her defending them rather points at her innocence.

I think Mac's later posts were more innocent than the early ones, and his explanation about the Ferny-thing kind of makes sense. So, for the time being, I'm not overtly worried about him (although, it might be that I'm manipulated to like him because he didn't want me to get lynched :rolleyes: ).

Rikae and Legate seem pretty innocent to me too. It's just the overall tone of their posts... they seem like their innocent selves.

I'd think our Frodo would want to have more fun with the role than that. Also, once Frodo is changed, he is on the side of the wraiths. A lynching after he has changed could mean a loss for the wraiths. And why would anyone want to lose?I think this is the single best point made about Frodo in the whole game. Brinn speaks sense here. Although, along the lines of Nerwen's and Rikae's thoughts, this could very well be a baddie carefully trying to win Frodo over to her side, though... and in that light, this seems awfully defensive:

I wouldn't encourage Frodo to do anything...it's totally up to him on how he wants to play. If he wants to reveal, go ahead. And if he wants to be turned, let's hope we lynch him first. But there's no harm in me saying what I'd personally do if I were in that role...or is there?

I still think you guys overestimate Ferny's and wolves' chances of identifying themselves to each other. They would have to do it out in the open, which means they have to be really careful, which makes it very difficult for them.

I don't get the row between Brinn and Rune. Rune's being unnecessarily nasty to her. But however, I doubt a wolf would be that aggressive. (As for Brinn, I don't think her reactions point to either innocence or guilt.)

~*~

Lastly, if we look at the Gollum lynch as so that the baddies could have thought him to be a known innocent...

Greenie's vote of him doesn't look too sinister. I think had she spotted the stuff, she could have voted Shasta himself just as well.

Then, it becomes more sinister as there now actually is the chance that Gollum may end up lynched. And what does Mr Noggels do?

Gollum looks like an "easy lynch" (like Rune and I think some others as well have alrerady commented) and the question just remains whether that is true or is he once again playing the card that is assumed from his behaviour? Somehow I'm a bit baffled about his activity and tone toDay. Like in his post #90 he says first of Menel and then of Legate and me that "they stay". Like it was under his decision who lives or dies (and not a democratic vote) - and the only one to think that way is the ringwraith's way of thinking... And well many other things, like his continued insistence to set right things said about him and the fervour by which he claims to be the number one poster while actually providing very little indeed but being friendly - which sure is the most wolvish trait there is...

Carefully states the cons against lynching him, but then suddenly starts to give reasons why he could be voted - as if preparing to vote him... I think that's rather fishy. And then later:
Gollum - "*Draws name from hat*"

Comment: Stating that one's vote is random means that you discharge yourself from the responsibilty of making the vote but still you make the vote and thus help lynching someone. Downright awful, undisgraceful, cowardish, irresponsible, worth of lynching on any occasion where you have no better targets!

And the votes after Nogrod's don't seem too bad at all, unless Mac and/or me were wolves.


edit: xed with Rune

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I guess I should talk about Gollum:

I really don't get why people always vote after the same pattern on every day 1, it is getting quite predictable. I can understand why Brinn and Mac votes for Gollum, nobody can be blamed for saving ones own skin. . .but that quite experienced players do it, that pussles me.

Is it because Gollum has some history I am not aware of?

Anyways, it may be that Gollum him self did not leave much of a trail, but pretty much everybody commented on him and that is also a trail of sorts.


oh just a quick note about Frodo: Obviously people can play how they wish, but I always got the impression that Frodo was on our side. This should mean that he does not speculate in shifting sides and such, so Frodo should always act in a way that benifits his current team.

Just like Frodo did not consider letting the wraith stap him in weathertop so that he could becoe a wraith and join Sauron, however it was a risk. . .but not a choice.

Does that make sense? (I guess not)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It was a rather odd decition making that took place last night. . .

Mac basicly did not wan't to vote for anybody, but especially not Lommy. . .for apparently no reason. He advocates this, but nothing happens until Nerwen shows up and vote for Gollum.

I guess the conclution is that Gollum died because there are people don't feel good about lynching Lommy on day 1.

I cannot say that any of the players stand out as very suspicious, but it was a bit odd. Had it been day 3 one could have slammed them on lack of reasoning, but on day 1 this is what is to be expected.

I will add Nerwen and Rikae to the list of people that is to be watched closely.

(I did like that Mirandir objected to the whole thing, although a wolf could do that as well)

[Aganzir]

Guilty (now this list looks unusual)
Nog. I don't understand why he seems to think Frodo should reveal & be lynched. Or rather, it's the lynching part that I don't understand. If Frodo revealed, why couldn't xe keep living? Nog's suggestion looks evil because it would take one known innocent away for nothing. Also, why point out Dury's ranger impersonation aloud? I simply can't see the sense in it. Makes day 1 votes too big an issue. Also, if we're looking for players who could have killed Shasta, he's probably on top of the list.
Mac. Wondering whether Billy would send in his own name looks like hinting, "Do it!" or "I'll do it!" I feel worse about Nog, though.
Menel. His reason for voting Mac (his list contains mostly Innocents or No Clues - wolf can't turn people's words into anything suspicious) wasn't very good but apart from that I have no idea, and he's on this list because my Neither list would have looked way too long otherwise.

Innocent
Lommy. Pointed out the Mac quote and looks quite innocent overall. She voted for me, though, but I suppose it's just fair given how much headache I've caused her in the past. ;)
Rikae. Her suggestion of Frodo's revealing was better than Nog's and actually made some sense.
Greenie. Looks innocent enough for now. Plus she had some good points against Nog.
Legate amuses me and his arguments look innocent.

Neither
Nerwen. Dunno. She looked more innocent at the beginning and less innocent at the end of the day. I'm keeping an eye on her.
Dury. Innocentish but too little to go on.
sally. Too little to go on.
LariAs for my sign I am a Sagittarius which actually does say a lot more about me than it should.
So going by Shasta's list you're a baddie? :p
Mira. Pops in randomly to comment on things.
Rune. No idea.
Berry. Innocentish but hasn't left enough of a mark to make it onto the Innocent list.
Fea. I disagree with her on the importance of day 1s but that happens always.
Brinn. Slightly overreactive but otherwise sensible. I don't find her Frodo posts suspicious, just because I can agree with her on most of the things.

Okay I'm leaving now. Back some time later.

[Rikae]

Sally - actually, I didn't retract my vote for Lommy the moment I made it. That would have been weird, though. :p

Well, I just want to say, now that it's day 2, as far as I'm concerned no one gets a free pass - not the newbies, not Mac, nobody.

(I'm glad of the chance to hear more from you, though.)

I didn't have a good feeling about Nerwen yesterDay, and it only got worse. I think I'll go and take a closer look at her posts toDay. Also, Shasta's death makes Nogrod worth a second look, I'd say.

EDIT: Somehow "crossed with" - or rather, failed to see - the whole page. Eek.

[Macalaure]

In one way Shasta's death is good, because, while it left no trails, its intent is obvious. We don't have to sort out a handful of trails and decide on each whether it means something or not, which usually leads to ten valid, but mutually exclusive conclusions.

I dont believe that the wraiths thought he might be the seer. Gollum, no offense, is not a likely Night1 dream and Lommy and her pack would have to be over-paranoid to think she's been dreamed of. Shasta's astrology-talk must have been obviously enough IC and no hint, I think.

I see these options:

1. The wraiths were under unexpectedly much Day1-pressure and chose a safe kill. this is unlikely, though, since there are better ways to divert attention.
2. The wraiths were under absolutely no pressure and the village was entirely wrong about each candidate. The trail-less kill was chosen to prolong this state.
3. The wraiths are timid by nature and didn't dare to assault anybody who even might leave a track towards them. (In this case, they might even have thought that Shasta was the seer.)
4. The wraiths are sportsmen who thought it was a good idea to keep those alive that talked more and kill those who talked less.

-While Option 1 is possible, I'd like to discard it for now - mostly because that goes along with my suspicions from yesterday (it would more or less mean that both Lommy and Brinn are wraiths).
-Option 2 only means that Lommy and Brinn (and me, of course) are innocent. The wraiths could be anybody else.
-Option 3 leads us, I think, to Lari, Mirandir, and Beregond, for (relative) newbieness, and to Lommy, Brinn, and maybe Lily, for being of a more timid nature. It exonerates villagers who are both daring and dominant, such as Legate, Rikae, Nogrod, and Nerwen.
-Option 4 points to Legate and Nogrod (not saying that everybody else is not sportsmanlike, but those two are most likely to make a point of it).

So much for valid conclusions that are mutually exclusive. :rolleyes: That was before came to think about what it actually means.


I will next look whether I can learn anything from the voting and Gollum's death. Maybe I'll have more luck there.

I really don't get why people always vote after the same pattern on every day 1, it is getting quite predictable. I can understand why Brinn and Mac votes for Gollum, nobody can be blamed for saving ones own skin. . .but that quite experienced players do it, that pussles me.

What exact pattern do you mean?

Mac basicly did not wan't to vote for anybody, but especially not Lommy. . .for apparently no reason.

Lommy was in greater danger of gathering votes than Brinn was, that's why I mentioned her more.

He advocates this, but nothing happens until Nerwen shows up and vote for Gollum.

Well, I was in danger of being lynched! Why should I have voted earlier and risked voting the wrong person?

[Lariren Shadow]

I do have to agree with Mirandir's comment on voting yesterday. It seemed really off the way some of them were acting. Mac I can understand, he did it before to save himself. Some of the other votes, well that get's to me.

Nog's assumption that Day 1 votes point to guilt seems weird to me. From what I understand they are a shot in the dark. No evidence, nothing. It just sort of goes from one suspicion to the next until someone gets more votes.

Be back to do a better anaylsis later toDay.

[Nogrod]

So here we go again... I fail in my trial of posting only the minimum and here's thev result... Maybe I should just actually shut my mouth? :(

But before I do it, I'll say something about those ill-adviced points made by Greenie and Aganzir. Yes I am against self-proclaimed "random-voting". I have been and I will be against it even if you lynch me on Day1 or 2 in every game because of that. And I also think I can claim the moral highgroud there.

Who you vote and why is probably the single most important thing others can look afterwards and base their suspicions on. Yes, there are other things and many times they can prove to be more succesful but still your voting record combined with your reasoning for your votes is a steady and constant source of information. Most importantly the wolves need to fake their real reasons behind their votes while innocents can be honest. And that makes a difference.

Now callling it out aloud that your vote is totally random basically annihilates the thing we should need to see eg. why do you claim to vote like you do. To me it's not a question of a playing-style - which of course everyone is entitled to pick and choose as they wish - but of kind of playing against the spirit of the game or should I say not playing but trying to parasitically sneak outside the discussion which after all is the base of this game in the first place.

So I will continue to suspect and press on those who claim their votes are random. Only when one knows - or there is a high probability - that calling one's vote a random one leads to immediate lynching will that behaviour cease and people start to actually play.

I know I'm a little like Don Quixote here fighting the windmills... I know. But I'll stand tall and die for it if I have to. :rolleyes:

What a rant... pffft...


Also, Shasta's death makes Nogrod worth a second look, I'd say.This idea, shared by Aganzir at least, is just... well, annoying. But it might be a plot made by the wolves and therefore maybe it's good it has been brought forwards. It might serve a purpose after all.

But to be honest it's a ridiculous claim. To those who don't know it, this idea comes from the following history. During the fall I was a wolf in a couple of games and more or less forced my mates in crime to kill silent, non-active, only IC players or "less dangerous" / less "independent-minded" players - whatever you read into those - during the Night (and I have acted on similarish principles as wolf also earlier). But after those few games quite recently it became kind of "talk of he town" - and we indeed lost the last one of those games because of the boldness of our kill-choices - or shared knowledge that if some of the less "threatening"-looking players are killed by Night early in the game then Nogrod is a wolf behind that decision. Now knowing how desperately certain people cling to the first possible reason to find something to suspect or to back their votes with, it would be plain suicidal for me to continue in that manner now that the meme "Noggie always does that" is around.

So rest assured, were I a wolf in this game it would have been fex. Rikae or Legate you would have found dead this morning (assuming neither was a wolf as well of course).


Okay.

I have a mountain of dishes to wash and dinner to prepare before Lommy and Greenie come back. I'll try to post something more constructive or more helpful in relation to the actual wraith-hunt later.

As now I'm having all my alarms ringing for Aganzir because of the way she kind of adds to a fire lit by Greenie, whom I could see as partly justifiedly being annoyed about me pointing out her vote and the grounds for it that early in the game. So point taken Greenie: your vote was early and "nothing" had happened when you voted, but I wouldn't say the same from many other votes I pointed to in that post.

Also I'd say that be on the watch for all the smooth players, those you feel like they're nice and helpful. Those are most likely to be those owning the hands that kill you at Night.


EDIT: X'd with Mac and Lari

[Rikae]

But Nog, so-called "random" votes can be analyzed, too. I don't for a minute assume they're necessarily as random as they say, and failing to give a reason can be innocent enough in some circumstances and incriminating in others, just as pretty much any reasoning given can.

I hope we're not about to see a Agan vs. Nog feud ending in the loss of two innocents. Nog would be rather easy to make a case against. The "I wouldn't do that as a wolf, really, I swear, I mean it" is reaslly no defense at all, but I don't find it incriminating, either. He is a bit paranoid, though.
Certainly the Shasta kill could be an attempt to frame Nog, at least in part, but I'm not so sure the "quiet player dead=Nogwolf" equation is so widely accepted. Maybe that's just because I missed the games where it became so, though.
Agan looks more innocent than not toDay. Her reactions seem pretty reasonable to me.

On another note, perhaps we should just lynch Sally. Every time I read one of her posts, I get stuck in this loop of "She looks so evil! But she's just being Sally! But she looks SOOO evil! But she always looks evil!" - very distracting, at least.:p

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I know I should post, but I don't have anything to say just yet. I don't think I'll be around much today, for RL reasons, but I'd appreciate if you didn't lynch me while I'm gone.

I mean, I'll be around and reading, and getting gut reactions, but I don't really have the time/state of mind necessary to try and view posts objectively.

Therefore: I'll read along, but won't have much to contribute except for this:

I'm never comfortable with lists of possibilities for the personality types of wolves. Because there are always more options. Like yeah, the wolves could all be timid, or they could all be playing timid. Or you might have three really dominant wolves who decide that their only strategy is to be the final survivor, so it's everybody for themselves. Or like, last game the way it ran was that I was ringleader for the first few days, and when I was lynched, everybody knew that the first two Night deaths were on me, so they didn't have any evidence to go on to catch the other wolves, because having one really strong personality can cloud others. There are always other options, and the option that whoever is playing is trying something new.

I mean, your options are good, Mac, but there's no such thing as a totally complete list of 'possibilities' because there are always more options. Unless you're listing possibilities that you, yourself, ran through.

*turns attention back to the library and grad school stuff*

[Beregond]

Mac - I voted for him yesterday as the best of bad choices, but he's seeming more innocent since. Still, keeping him on my suspicious list.
Nogrod - facing finger-pointing, answered well, but I've heard how smooth he can be. Suspicious, but good to have on one's side. As with Mac, I'm realizing.
Greenie - her and Agan are on Nog's case. I don't know who to believe, but if Nog is innocent these two are suspicious...
Agan - ...but she and Greenie have otherwise seemed innocent, more or less, so far.

Brinn - tend to think she's innocent, but not wanting to underestimate
Lommy, Nerwen and Rikae - cautiously labeling them as innocent, but watching. More suspicious because of what others have said.
Sally, Fea, Lari, Mira - not making themselves suspicious
Menel and Durelin - just not much to go on
Rune - seems fairly innocent of being a wolf
Legate - also acting innocent

Having made that list, I'm not really suspicious of anyone, nor am I sure of anyone's innocence. I thought making a list would help. It didn't. :p Thankfully it's early. Take this as you like: I have a lot of work to do but I'll be reading and will contribute if I feel I have anything to say.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What exact pattern do you mean?


The pattern I mentioned when Greenie voted Gollum. . . you can go back and rea, if it still obscure then I will be happy to write more on the matter.

Lommy was in greater danger of gathering votes than Brinn was, that's why I mentioned her more.

Was it. . . to me it seems that you underline how little you want to vote Lommy, it simply seems that she must not die.
Obviously neither of us have english as a first language and that may play a part in this.


Well, I was in danger of being lynched! Why should I have voted earlier and risked voting the wrong person?
You shouldn't, I was just saying how things happened.



So here we go again... I fail in my trial of posting only the minimum and here's thev result... Maybe I should just actually shut my mouth? :(
i

Yes, please. . .
Actually I am suprised that you made your tactics public, there is always people who can object to such things. Such an action is bound to attract atention and in turn force you to reply.

EDIT: Coss Posted With Beregond

[Macalaure]

Lily -> Gollum - the first vote, looks neither innocent nor suspicious
Lommy -> Aganzir - flip-floppy, but that doesn't mean much. The vote alone is neither suspicious nor innocent either
Gollum -> Brinn
Aganzir -> Lari - why does she vote randomly? She did have suspicions and opinions, yet she discarded them
Legate -> Mac - first real vote of the day
Shasta -> Lommy
Nogrod -> Gollum - it's not that he criticises random votes, that's to be encouraged, but that his choice is limited to it, that's unnecessary
Menel -> Mac - maybe there's a bit of a revenge involved, but his reasons alone are awful
Rune -> Brinn - he is so over the top about her, that he's probably innocent
Fea -> Brinn - giving somebody a third vote for paranoia's sake? suspicious
Mirandir -> Lommy - looks fine to me
Beregond -> Mac - picks up what everybody else is talking about without mentioning it before. Bandwaggonish vote and reason, something a newbie wraith might do.
Durelin -> Lommy - another could be either vote
Sally -> Mac - not as awful as Menel and Beregond, but still
Lari -> Durelin - throws her vote away in order to prevent a double lynch: suspicious
Rikae -> Lommy - the first vote intended to save me, no reason to suspect
Nerwen -> Gollum - if she's a wraith and one of the other candidates is, too, she would have found an easier way to save that one. If she's a wraith and the other candidates are innocent, she could have chosen a player with a bigger name to get rid of. She must've known that her vote would make others follow and that a different vote would have discouraged them. It doesn't seem to fit, so it's probably an innocent vote. Interesting, though, that she does not mention Brinn in her vote post.
Mac -> Gollum
Brinn -> Gollum - had pretty much the same reasons as I did, plus she was annoyed with him
Rikae -> Gollum - she talked about voting him before but only did so after his death was more or less sealed, which is a bit strange

Suspicious vote: Aganzir, Fea
A bit suspicious vote: Nogrod, Menel, Beregond, Lari
Somewhere in the middle: Lily, Lommy, Durelin, Sally, Rikae
Less suspicious vote: Rune, Mirandir, Nerwen, Brinn
Innocent vote: Legate


Nogrod is trying to hide in the open, I see. ;)

Fea, those were only the options that came to my mind, of course. I didn't say that there are no others. Even incomplete lists like these are helpful, though, I think, as long as people don't end up thinking that there are no other ways.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, those were only the options that came to my mind, of course. I didn't say that there are no others. Even incomplete lists like these are helpful, though, I think, as long as people don't end up thinking that there are no other ways.

My only concern is really in line with your last comment: it's very easy to fall into the trap that the listed options are the only options. It would be an easy bad guy trick to list off potential scenarios which people would then be distracted by.

[Rikae]

Mac, you make a good point about Nerwen's vote. When I saw it, I thought it seemed like she was trying to protect someone, but, after all, she couldn't have been trying to protect all three of you.
Mac just told our daughter that I'm 'doof'. I am the seer, he is a wraith. Lynch him! You will find the proof of my claim in my first Day 1 post. :cool:
It occurs to me that the baddies may have thought Shasta was Frodo. I thought he might have been hinting at it, after his first post. That's not much help, though, I suppose.
I just realized I forgot Menel was playing. It might behoove me to make a list of my own, so no one slips through the cracks (or sleeps under the reindeer). In a little while.

[Rikae]

Oh yeah, and:

Rikae -> Gollum - she talked about voting him before but only did so after his death was more or less sealed, which is a bit strange

How so? It was my only retractable vote, and I didn't want to use it, then have someone else change their vote and I wouldn't be able to react, so I waited until the last minute.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I am the seer, he is a wraith. Lynch him! You will find the proof of my claim in my first Day 1 post.

This may seem like a silly question, but...

Really?

[Beregond]

Mac just told our daughter that I'm 'doof'. I am the seer, he is a wraith. Lynch him! You will find the proof of my claim in my first Day 1 post. :cool:

I have no idea if you're serious, kidding, or throwing us on a goose-chase, but, hey...


Shasta, you're an Aquarius, correct?

Even showing up as late as I did, I almost had the opportunity to make my point about Mr. Underhill before anyone else, but then Nog had to go and mess it up for me. Eh. Revealing may be the best thing Frodo can do for the village. If we know who he is, as soon as a kill is missed (Frodo is changed) we can lynch him. Also, there is no incentive for a baddie to falsely reveal as Frodo, since changing the real Frodo will get the false Frodo lynched. Maybe he could serve as a known innocent of sorts? Nevertheless, it's up to the ringbearer.

On the other hand, if Bill Ferny doesn't count as a baddie in the head count, he is really no more powerful than a cobbler who has the ability to clue the wolves in to his own identity. This gives us some hope of catching him, as well as the wolves, since, knowing no more than any ordinary villager, the most he can realistically do is use daytime hints in addition to his nighttime messages to help the wolves find him.

By the way, I'm a Pisces (a real one). ;)

EDIT: X'd with the whole page and God only knows what else. By the way, I'm a fan of the gender-neutral pronouns, myself, but since we have a built-in gender for our gifted characters in this game, I went with that.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think it is a quite reasonable question you ask, Fea.

Nerwen -> Gollum - if she's a wraith and one of the other candidates is, too, she would have found an easier way to save that one. If she's a wraith and the other candidates are innocent, she could have chosen a player with a bigger name to get rid of. She must've known that her vote would make others follow and that a different vote would have discouraged them. It doesn't seem to fit, so it's probably an innocent vote.

An easier way?
I thought it was rather easy for her to get the votes rolling. . . and who is it who has a bigger name than Gollum? (You, Brinn or Lommy?)

Anyways I am meeting a friend for pints at the pub soon, so I will leave shortly.

EDIT: Cross Posted With Beregond

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Traditional Pisces Traits

Imaginative and sensitive
Compassionate and kind
Selfless and unworldly
Intuitive and sympathetic

On the dark side....
Escapist and idealistic
Secretive and vague
Weak-willed and easily led

So... We know you're intuitive and selfless... definitely good seer traits, but you're also secretive, vague, and easily led. :p

More importantly:

Revealing may be the best thing Frodo can do for the village. If we know who he is, as soon as a kill is missed (Frodo is changed) we can lynch him.

Not necessarily true. A missed kill means more than just that Frodo changed: it could mean that Strider succeeded in protection, that the wraiths didn't get their kill choice in on time, that the wraiths chose not to kill anybody so that we'd think Frodo had changed (or that we'd think the Ranger had succeeded)...

While I won't deny that Frodo revealing might be of some use (until any kill is missed, we would have an Innocent to work with), I think suggesting that a missed kill definitely means we should lynch Frodo is an idea which doesn't consider all possibilities.

Following that, the Ferny comments don't strike any notes with me, and I'm nearly as big a fan of xe as I am of quts.

Quite seriously though, I have lingering suspicion that Rikae just wants my undivided attention since I so blatantly refused to give it to her yesterday when she wanted us to look at Nerwen. Which-

Perhaps when Rikae said "You will find the proof of my claim in my first Day 1 post," she actually meant her second Day 1 post in which she said:

About Barry and Andy - I, too, don't like to vote for newbies on Day one. However, I see no reason to assume newbies are innocent, and I will be keeping my eye on you both! I also have no scruples about voting newbies on Day Two. :p

Mac, that was a clever move you made there, but don't you think it might bring you under unwanted scrutiny?
(Lommy, I don't mean the "this end" thing, which is a pretty common figure of speech, to my eyes).

At the moment Nerwen is tripping my reindeer.... I think I'll refrain from saying more for the moment. Anyone care to make a guess? ;)

EDIT: X'd with Lommy and fixed a stupid typo. One too many "o"s in "to". I can't leave it that way, it makes my eyes burn .

Bolding mine.

So if she meant her second post, she hints that she knows more about Mac than a typical ordo would, and her comment about Nerwen suggests - again - that there's a reason she's being vague, but that people should pay attention.

Like I said, though, I'm tempted to guess Rikae's just playing with us. Which is a dangerous thing indeed for an innocent player to be doing.

So, Rik, like I said... Were you serious?

Or just playing?

[Beregond]

I don't think Rikae is being serious - if she were the seer, what profit from coming out at this point - assuming people believed her and voted Mac off, and he were a wraith, Rikae would be gone in the night. Doesn't seem worth it, yet.

If she believed it worth the risk, was the seer, and wanted people to believe her, would she justify her statement like she did? But then...why point to her first post?


So if she's really the seer, would it be worth coming out with it now?

If she's not the seer, but is innocent, how would that help us?

If she's a wraith, maybe she's trying to deflect attention, or simply stir things up a bit.


*reads Fea's post*

Good catch on the second post, Fea, that makes more sense. Although you seem to indicate that Rikae knew about both Mac and Nerwen - I didn't think the seer would know of more than one player at a time?


Anyway, it's given us something to talk about. :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Although you seem to indicate that Rikae knew about both Mac and Nerwen - I didn't think the seer would know of more than one player at a time?

Yeah, I noticed that...

Also what tips me off is that if Nerwen is a wraith and Rikae was so obvious, why did Shasta die in the night?

What might have happened, and I'm just hypothesizing here, is that Rikae dreamed of Nerwen first and then dreamed of Mac last night, pegged two baddies (though not necessarily two wraiths)...

Honestly though, I still think she's just trying to stir up conversation. Otherwise I feel like she'd either be more or less specific with her comments.

[Beregond]

Yeah, I noticed that...

Also what tips me off is that if Nerwen is a wraith and Rikae was so obvious, why did Shasta die in the night?

What might have happened, and I'm just hypothesizing here, is that Rikae dreamed of Nerwen first and then dreamed of Mac last night, pegged two baddies (though not necessarily two wraiths)...

Honestly though, I still think she's just trying to stir up conversation. Otherwise I feel like she'd either be more or less specific with her comments.


I don't know that Rikae was so obvious.
Indeed from her statements, if she were the seer, it seems she suspected Mac day 1, didn't want to vote him off until last night when she dreamed of him, and now is revealing his identity.

But like you say it could be a red herring, or just in fun. Still, if that is true it's a strange statement as it doesn't help innocents much, does it?

[Aganzir]

Only when one knows - or there is a high probability - that calling one's vote a random one leads to immediate lynching will that behaviour cease and people start to actually play.
Okay this is a valid point. However, you certainly overreacted, given that it was only day one, and that's what I find suspicious. You were trying to cast suspicion on Gollum and me rather fiercely.

I'm having all my alarms ringing for Aganzir because of the way she kind of adds to a fire lit by Greenie
That is because I found the things she criticized you of suspicious. ;) Greenie voted early. Lommy explains a lot, and what's bad in voting me if she thinks I might be Billy/Frodo? The first sensible vote looks like it could also have been cast by a wolf. Shasta's vote is the only one you actually had good points against, but he's dead and innocent.
Besides, isn't this a bit too strong reaction?
Comment: Stating that one's vote is random means that you discharge yourself from the responsibilty of making the vote but still you make the vote and thus help lynching someone. Downright awful, undisgraceful, cowardish, irresponsible, worth of lynching on any occasion where you have no better targets!
Stating something like that makes it look like you were really really suspicious of us, and other people who weren't sure about their suspects might easily have fallen into the trap and voted us. Gollum got voted though that wasn't only because of your dislike of random votes.
That's just such an easy way to cast suspicion, and when we were killed and found innocent, you could explain everything with your high morals, saying it was us, not you, who were responsible for our deaths.

Granted, (forgot to mention this in my summary although I was planning to) it was 4 am when you posted that, and your most suspicious posts came very late, which might explain something. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't like your points.

Aganzir -> Lari - why does she vote randomly? She did have suspicions and opinions, yet she discarded them
Because I didn't want to vote for you on day 1 after last game. It would have felt way too unfair. Especially if you're innocent.
Another reason was that my brain wasn't working properly anymore. I just couldn't think of anything and thought, all the same, I don't care, ++Lari.

It occurs to me that the baddies may have thought Shasta was Frodo. I thought he might have been hinting at it, after his first post.
Why?

If Rikae had a seer hint in her first post, it was probably this:
By the way, I'm a Pisces (a real one).
I noticed it already yesterday, as well as some other funny comments. After all, Shasta said the seer was under the protection of Water, and Rikae started her post by addressing Shasta. However I think she is most likely not being serious. At least the wolves have something to think about now. Or, if she's a wolf, she might be fishing for reactions to find out the real seer.

Hey Kitanna, will it be told in the narration if Frodo is turned? Knowing this would make speculating about when/if Frodo should reveal a lot easier.

Also, I don't think this indicates anything but I want to say it aloud. I was a wolf long ago (and there were two wolf teams who didn't know each other), and one day Fea came and said, "By the way, last night I had a dream tgwbs was a werewolf." I was like, "What!? Is she serious? Is she the seer? How should I react? Eek!" and everybody else just kept ignoring her comment... Because they realised it wasn't in-game.
Now when I saw Rikae's comment I didn't pay it a second thought and was a bit surprised when people started actually reacting to it.

edit: xed with Fea & Berry

[Aganzir]

It occurs to me that the baddies may have thought Shasta was Frodo. I thought he might have been hinting at it, after his first post.
Why?
Oh scratch that, I just remembered Aquarius is an Air sign, not Water.

[Brinniel]

Sally: Her first several posts are banter, but it's her posts at the end of the Day that make me slightly uneasy. Her opinions on players seem non-committed.

Fea: I don't like her voting yesterDay, particularly the timing of it. Of course maybe I'm just biased because the vote was for me, but I still think the placement looks bad.

Lariren: Her vote might've been a throwaway, but I actually don't find it all that suspicious. Nothing about her jumps out to me, however I am wary since she did play a brilliant wolf last game.

Mirandir: Has made a decent number of posts, but they are all short containing only a couple of lines. I really would like to hear more from her.

Lommy: Her posts are quite sensible so far and I think she looks rather innocentish.

Legate: Seems sensible, but careful. I've also learned a sensible Legate, can mean an evil Legate. Nothing particularly suspicious about him at the moment, however I would like to keep my eye on him.

Rikae: Looks to be her bold self as usual. Doesn't necessarily point to either guilt or innocence.

Aganzir: Is a big question mark to me. I go back and forth on her with each post. I admit I don't find her an easy person to trust, therefore I can't help but feel the need to watch out for her.

Nogrod: Contrary to what others have been saying, I think he looks more innocentish than guilty. He's not as smooth as he can be when a wolf and I somehow doubt he would experiment with a new playing style if he were evil. And toDay his reaction to being suspected looked rather honest.

Beregond: How many nicknames does this poor guy have? :p I see some newbie-ish behaviour, but overall I think he's doing well for his first game. And I certainly won't underestimate the possibility of a newbie being a wraith.

Nerwen: I don't like how she suddenly jumped in with her vote, it looks a bit fishy. But otherwise her posts don't exactly stand out as terribly suspicious. I will keep an eye on her.

Rune: Of course I don't like how he's attacked me, but he's always had this negative attitude towards me and while yesterDay it was more intense than I ever recall it being, I don't think it necessarily points to guilt. If anything, it's more likely innocent behaviour, but then again I've never seen Rune play a wolf so I honestly don't know how he would behave as one.

Mac: Yes, his Ferny comment did look rather odd, but I don't think that's enough reason alone to seriously suspect him. And his other posts don't look all that suspicious to me.

Menel: Has made the least amount of posts so far. Where is he?

Durelin: So far her posts look innocent and sincere. But I would like to see more of her.

Greenie: Her posts toDay seem suspiciously careful and well thought out, which worries me.

The List:

Suspicious
Sally
Fea
Greenie

Watching
Legate
Nerwen
Aganzir

No Clue
Lari
Mira
Rikae
Beregond
Mac
Menel

Innocent
Lommy
Nogrod
Durelin

(Okay, I was in the middle of writing this post when the whole Rikae thing came up. I'm not sure what to make of all this, but I thought she was just joking. Was she not? :confused: )

EDIT: X-ed with Agan

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

(Okay, I was in the middle of writing this post when the whole Rikae thing came up. I'm not sure what to make of all this, but I thought she was just joking. Was she not? :confused: )

I think she was joking, but I had nothing better to do than pretend she was serious and see what I could dig up with that assumption.

[Thinlómien]

Okay now this is surely interesting... I was looking at Rikae's words in disbelief - because, would a seer reveal in that manner? I mean, I would assume Barliman to make a bigger show of himself, but on the other hand, I think Rikae has been making "by the way" statements like this before... which would make me inclined to believe her claim.

Oh, holy cow, I just realised something. Rikae is either the seer or then she's a really twisted person with an ingenious plot, but I'm not sure if I should explain that plot of hers aloud, because I might do something horrible if I draw her plans out in the open...

Anyway, I'd like to her more from Rikae before talking much more. I don't know if talking about her makes sense before she comes back. I'm torn, I cannot decide which one is more believable, my horrid scenario or her really being the seer (logically, I'd love to trust her but since coming up with the scenario, I cannot get it out of my mind), and of course the possibility remains she's just joking...

So I'll talk about something else for a while..

Mac, I'm offended. :p I'm not timid! I'm really not. I grant you that I overreact to suspicion against me when I'm a wolf and thus might be inclined to make safe kills, yes, but decent packmates would keep me from making such mistakes (you can see this if you compare my behaviour in the game where I was wolves with xyzzy and in the one I was wolves with tp). Also, I would put myself to the sportsmanship category. *grumblegrumble* Okay, that was maybe a slightly unnecessary personal rant but I felt mischaracterised. ;)

But really what's all this "Noggie would have killed Shasta" stuff? Why Shasta? Why not someone else silentish by that logic? And more importantly, like Nog himself said, I think he'd be really stupid to do that after the few last games. I still think Shasta was killed because of looking like a seer (and that theory does not exonerate Nog, of course, unlike the safe-kill theory almost would).

I hope Rikae comes back soon.


edit: xed with 2xAgan, 1xBrinn & 1xFea

[Macalaure]

Rikae is most probably joking because nobody's paying attention to her. Or maybe she's Bill, but I don't think so. It might be interesting to see the reactions to her claim, just as long as the real seer doesn't lose his nerves - or people get the idea to trust her and lynch me! :eek:

An easier way?

Of course. Voting one of the two (or the one) who was ahead of Gollum and not a wraith.

and who is it who has a bigger name than Gollum? (You, Brinn or Lommy?)

Ok, it was maybe not nice of me to say that. It's true, however, that people have built up reputations in all the games they've played, and that people often shy away from lynching someone with a higher reputation, if only by the number of games played, when they have no real reason to. All of us three have played more games than Gollum and had more successes (more defeats, too, but those are usually forgotten quickly).

Because I didn't want to vote for you on day 1 after last game. It would have felt way too unfair. Especially if you're innocent.
Another reason was that my brain wasn't working properly anymore. I just couldn't think of anything and thought, all the same, I don't care, ++Lari.

I'll buy that - for now. Firstly, because I don't want to be ungrateful, ;) second, because it looks honest enough. Your brain must've really shut down if it wasn't able to come up with anything anymore, though.


---crossed since Aganzir

[Brinniel]

Well, I really can't see that seer comment being anything serious. It looks more like another Rikae/Mac joke. But I'm finding everyone's reactions to the comment to be very odd.
I had nothing better to do than pretend she was serious and see what I could dig up with that assumption.
I can't see what kind of benefit comes from pretending such a thing. It just causes distractions.

[Thinlómien]

Rikae is most probably joking because nobody's paying attention to her.WHAT?!? What kind of explanation is that?? And Mac, that's the second wolf slip from you, so I'm really baffled. "Is most probably joking"? Mac, if you were innocent, you'd know she was joking... Ok, granted, you make an addition about Ferny, but all in all, that was awfully carelessly wolvishly phrased.

Whether Rikae is joking or not (or actually even if my horrid scenario is true), I think lynching Mac wouldn't be a bad option.


edit: xed with Brinn

[Beregond]

Beregond: How many nicknames does this poor guy have? :p I see some newbie-ish behaviour, but overall I think he's doing well for his first game. And I certainly won't underestimate the possibility of a newbie being a wraith.

I've lost count. Thank you! I feel terribly newbie-ish.


Rikae is most probably joking because nobody's paying attention to her. Or maybe she's Bill, but I don't think so. It might be interesting to see the reactions to her claim, just as long as the real seer doesn't lose his nerves - or people get the idea to trust her and lynch me! :eek:

I would, of course, expect you to deny the validity of it, were you a wraith or no. But we have been paying attention to her! Maybe we shouldn't; it could be a joke. But everything in this game can get analyzed. Joke or not, Rikae's assertion bears discussion.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I can't see what kind of benefit comes from pretending such a thing. It just causes distractions.

Option: she's just kidding and it's a harmless waste of time while I'm at work.

Option: she's actually the seer and we need to figure out what clues she left because she stands a shot of dying tonight

Option: she's actually Frodo and wants to be turned tonight (thereby making a target out of herself)

Option: she's a bad guy and we need to figure out her motives

Option: insert any option you like.

What benefit doesn't come from taking a close look at statements? If it's a joke, I'm not particularly upset about a bit of time taken from my day. If it's not, I've got a head start on figuring out what it means.

[Meneltarmacil]

I'd suggest we keep any speculation regarding the Innkeeper/Seer to ourselves. Discussing Seerish comments openly just draws the wraiths towrd the true Seer, which isn't good. True, it may help to protect said person, but I personally think it wise to conceal the Seer's identity from xyr enemies as long as possible.

I'm still suspicious of Mac, due to his ongoing suspicion of Gollum.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Discussing Seerish comments openly just draws the wraiths towrd the true Seer, which isn't good.

Unless a person in being blatantly obvious, in which case discussion is fair game because the person obviously wants to be discussed for whatever reason.

Besides... it gives me something to do instead of be angsty.

[Brinniel]

WHAT?!? What kind of explanation is that?? And Mac, that's the second wolf slip from you, so I'm really baffled. "Is most probably joking"? Mac, if you were innocent, you'd know she was joking... Ok, granted, you make an addition about Ferny, but all in all, that was awfully carelessly wolvishly phrased.WHAT?!? What kind of explanation is that?? And Mac, that's the second wolf slip from you, so I'm really baffled. "Is most probably joking"? Mac, if you were innocent, you'd know she was joking... Ok, granted, you make an addition about Ferny, but all in all, that was awfully carelessly wolvishly phrased.
After you made this post Lommy, I reread Mac's sentence and I actually this might be just a misunderstanding in language. You're reading it as "most probably joking," but I think he might've meant to say "joking most probably because nobody's paying attention to her." At least that's how I'm reading it.

Option: she's actually the seer and we need to figure out what clues she left because she stands a shot of dying tonight
Now this is one option I don't get. If there's any possibility she actually is the seer, why would you spotlight it and further risk the chances of her getting killed?

[Rikae]

I was joking, but I won't say I wasn't well aware somebody might make something of it, and I thought what they made of it might be useful.
Mac, I've tested you three times now, and you've earned my trust. If you're a baddie, kudos.
Lommy, if you mean what I think you mean, that's just a back up plan. Read a little further. There's also another one.
As an ordo, I want to die during the night to protect the gifteds, and I also want to do what I can to trick wolves into giving themselves away. Nothing special there, really.

Now, on to making that list I promised.

EDIT: And X'd with the whole page again.

[Mirandir]

Okay, I've read and gotten caught up but unfortunately don't have time to comment on anything due to a prior commitment that is going to eat up the bulk of the remainder of my day. With any luck I'll be back within a few hours of deadline and be able to actually contribute then.

[Beregond]

I'd suggest we keep any speculation regarding the Innkeeper/Seer to ourselves. Discussing Seerish comments openly just draws the wraiths towrd the true Seer, which isn't good. True, it may help to protect said person, but I personally think it wise to conceal the Seer's identity from xyr enemies as long as possible.

I agree in part. If Rikae did not blatantly name herself as the seer, it would be a different story. As Fea said, it's out in the open.

But there are certain speculations that should not be tabled.

At any rate, Rikae has spoken. Whatever your intentions, thanks for making today interesting. :p

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

If there's any possibility she actually is the seer, why would you spotlight it and further risk the chances of her getting killed?

Because saying "I'm the seer, kill this person, here's my evidence" isn't spotlighting herself without my help? Me pretending I'm blind doesn't make wraiths blind.

*stops*

I just realized something significant.

I shall hush.

Rikae: onward and upward. :)

[Meneltarmacil]

Fea, if you're suggesting we ought to lynch Mac, I'm up for it.

[A Little Green]

Why is it that I feel completely lost? I'm not smart enough to get any sense out of all this suttf. I've lost the track of this discussion completely. Shall we talk about... hmmm... carrots? :Merisu:


EDIT: x-ed with Menel

[A Little Green]

Yeah, I came to post some nice ideas but my head feels strangely empty. I think it's smartest if I just let Noggins post and come back when I have thought about things a little (green).

This is one of the times when I feel ww is not my area of expertise... :rolleyes:

I'll be back!

[Beregond]

Well, I'd understand how a person would like carrots, but I'm more of a potato guy myself (what's taters, precious, what's taters, eh?).

[Rikae]

I'm still suspicious of Mac, due to his ongoing suspicion of Gollum.

Do you have a reason for giving that as the reason, or?

[Brinniel]

Because saying "I'm the seer, kill this person, here's my evidence" isn't spotlighting herself without my help? Me pretending I'm blind doesn't make wraiths blind.
The thing is, would anyone else have given her comment a second thought if you hadn't brought it up first? It didn't look like she was spotlighting herself, it seemed pretty much a casual joke to me. I just can't understand why it'd be helpful to point out Rikae's seerish comments, whether she really is the seer or if it's just a ploy. I guess I just don't get your logic in all of this.

[Beregond]

The thing is, would anyone else have given her comment a second thought if you hadn't brought it up first? It didn't look like she was spotlighting herself, it seemed pretty much a casual joke to me. I just can't understand why it'd be helpful to point out Rikae's seerish comments, whether she really is the seer or if it's just a ploy. I guess I just don't get your logic in all of this.

Well, to be fair to Fea, I was going to as well for good or ill, she just mentioned it first.

[Rikae]

Never mind, let's lynch Berry and Greenie. They're sending hints.

Carrots and potatoes clearly indicate... whoever's name Berry Ferny sent to the little green wraith... only trouble is, who would that be...

[Beregond]

Never mind, let's lynch Berry and Greenie. They're sending hints.

Carrots and potatoes clearly indicate... whoever's name Berry Ferny sent to the little green wraith... only trouble is, who would that be...

Hmmmmn, yes, who, indeed?

[Rikae]

Hmmmmn, yes, who, indeed?

Clearly Lalwende, for her red hair. :D

[Beregond]

Clearly Lalwende, for her red hair. :D

:eek: Oh no, you're on to us!

[Macalaure]

but decent packmates would keep me from making such mistakes
Of course. My point was that all wolves were timid, which is not likely, but possible.

Mac, if you were innocent, you'd know she was joking...
That was sloppily phrased by me: I mean most probably a joking innocent, or Ferny (who would not be joking because he had a plan behind this move)

You're reading it as "most probably joking," but I think he might've meant to say "joking most probably because nobody's paying attention to her."
Nah, Lommy was right, actually.

But we have been paying attention to her!Not enough, and not to her other points. ;)

I'm still suspicious of Mac, due to his ongoing suspicion of Gollum.
What are you talking about, Menel? I never really suspected Gollum at all, he just looked least innocent of the people on the block. And what do you mean by ongoing?

[Brinniel]

Well, to be fair to Fea, I was going to as well for good or ill, she just mentioned it first.
Alright, I honestly thought you had simply followed up her comment since there was a gap between the timing of the posts and no indication of a cross.

Bah, I still can't see how that comment could've been taken seriously. But I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. It can be easy to interpret the tone and meaning of someone's comment in different ways.

[Nogrod]

I must say I was kind of disappointed to hear Rikae gave in so fast... I mean were it a test of sorts I could imagine her trying she should have waited a bit more for any outcome to be reached *. Now it ended up like a little prank made by now clearly and most definitively innocent Rikae, right? That was what you thought, wasn't it? And that's why you had to draw it back before the real seer started getting mad with it? Or was it like Fea suggested that you were hoping to be turned as you're Frodo?

My problem with this is that I could see an innocent Rikae pulling that kind of a trick anyday. Sure. But somehow she gave in soo easily as to make me think twice about the motive behind the trick that was clearly left unexecuted. I mean were it a trick by an innocent she should have waited to see whether it paid off... But now it looked more like something done for other reasons and like she was more than happy to pull that back after the initial reaction ("Rikae must be innocent") was reached?

*Well I do agree with Lommy on Mac answering the "challenge" most strangely.

"Is most probably joking"? Mac, if you were innocent, you'd know she was joking...To the point. *underlining mine*

So it looks ever more strange that Rikae now seems to defend Mac... So is it that they're just a bold pair of wolves (possible) or is it only a RL bride defending her fiancée (possible as well)?

Whatever the truth is, I will eye both of them more closely from this on.


Granted, (forgot to mention this in my summary although I was planning to) it was 4 am when you posted that, and your most suspicious posts came very late, which might explain something. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't like your pointsThis actually makes me suspect you Aganzir a lot less as it sounds like something an earnest person would note if she knew the facts behind the posts (eg. that I was writing my last posts closer to the morning which many of you don't see as immediately as she would being on the same timezone as I am).

And anyway I think I have to reorientate a bit for now. But first we are going to play some funny games RL with Lommy & Greenie.

Back later...

[Beregond]

Alright, I honestly thought you had simply followed up her comment since there was a gap between the timing of the posts and no indication of a cross.

Bah, I still can't see how that comment could've been taken seriously. But I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. It can be easy to interpret the tone and meaning of someone's comment in different ways.

Yeah, I noticed Fea's post before I started to write mine (so it was a crossing of minds, not posts). :p

No, I know it certainly looked like a joke, but I don't trust anything at this point.

[Meneltarmacil]

What I was referring to, Mac, was the fact that you wereacting suspicious about Gollum throughout Day 1, and not just at the end.

[Rikae]

In response to Nogrod:
I saw several reactions, and Mac's in particular. That was all I really wanted to do, and yes, of course, I didn't want to risk the real seer being revealed.

I thought Mac's response looked innocent when I saw it. Even Lommy's comment on it didn't make it look suspicious, since I took it the way Brinniel did. Now that Mac replied the way he did to Brinn, though, I'm not so sure. His response simply doesn't make sense.

I don't think he's Ferny but he could still be a wraith.

[Aganzir]

But really what's all this "Noggie would have killed Shasta" stuff?
Well it was a thing that occurred to me, just because Shasta has been quiet in recent games. I wouldn't have used it as a reason for suspicion if I hadn't been suspicious of him for other reasons.

Your brain must've really shut down if it wasn't able to come up with anything anymore, though.
It was. It was ages since I had had a chance to sleep properly and wake up when I wanted instead of when the alarm clock told me to as I had to wake up early on both Saturday and Sunday last weekend. Add to that several nights of 6-7 hours of sleep, which is way too little for me. I went to take a shower and when I came back I realised I couldn't think properly anymore.

Okay I got distracted for a while. *goes to read what's been posted in the meanwhile*

Carrots and potatoes clearly indicate... whoever's name Berry Ferny sent to the little green wraith... only trouble is, who would that be...
Fea is a gardener. ;)

I must say I was kind of disappointed to hear Rikae gave in so fast...
Me too, although I can understand it if she was afraid of flushing out the real seer. That seems unlikely, though, given that it's only day 2, and if the wraiths have taken Rikae seriously, they'll kill her soon.

I wouldn't like to stay up terribly late today, either, so I'm probably voting in a few hours. However now I could pick a person from my Neither list and go through xyr posts.

[Rikae]

Sally- I do want to take a closer look at her. She had some odd interactions with people.
Fea - Could be anything.
Lari - Also needs a closer look. Something she said looked odd.
Mira - Popping in with the occasional comment, very under-the-reindeer, could be up to no good.
Lommy- Looks fairly innocent at the moment.
Leggy- Hasn't been around toDay, which is a shame. With everyone thinking him so innocent, I doubt the wolves will leave him alive much longer, and he's a good wolf-hunter.
Agan- Has seemed more innocent, although I'm far from sure.
Nogrod- He looks like the same old Nog as always, but that doesn't tell me much.
Nerwen - I don't know. Perhaps it looks innocent that she waited to vote for Gollum rather than choosing one among Mac, Brinn and Lommy. Then again, I might have done the same as a baddie. Lynching an innocent "big name" without sufficient explanation is harder to defend.
Rune -Has been suspecting people on strange grounds. Hard to read.
Berry - Newbie-ish. Can't tell much yet.
Mac- Perhaps we're better off lynching him toDay. His role could reveal a lot.
Menel- His behavior is decidedly queer. I haven't decided what I think of him.
Dury- Haven't seen enough of her to form an opinion.
Lily- Creeping me out.
Brin - Her reaction to my seer prank looks innocentish, especially if Mac is evil.

[Rikae]

I'm tired of Mac being a baddie. Every single game I've played with him in the last two years, it seems, he's been a baddie (well, with the exception of dueling wizards). *sigh*

I'm also tired of being an ordo.

For reasons I may or may not have explained yet and I'm too tired at the moment to worry about it:

++A Little Green

*wanders off to eat something sweet, like she intended not to do*

[Thinlómien]

Oh, I give up. Mac, you admit your mistakes so cheerfully and calmly that I might have to consider you innocent and refrain from murderous thoughts against you at least for the time being. :p;)

Option: she's actually Frodo and wants to be turned tonight (thereby making a target out of herself)Now that you said it aloud, I may as well say that it was my "horrid scenario"... because it would really be rather disastrous-ish, especially if we're not told when Frodo goes to the dark side...

[Rikae]

Now that you said it aloud, I may as well say that it was my "horrid scenario"... because it would really be rather disastrous-ish, especially if we're not told when Frodo goes to the dark side...

Of course I'm Frodo.

When I'm turned into a wraith, I'll kill you all, and you'll never catch me! Mwahahaha! Er, well...

[Aganzir]

Now that you said it aloud, I may as well say that it was my "horrid scenario"... because it would really be rather disastrous-ish, especially if we're not told when Frodo goes to the dark side...
Yeah and we surely wouldn't catch her quickly enough after that?

Although Kitanna hasn't responded, I find it unlikely we would not get to know when Frodo is turned. At least last night's narration described the happenings in detail enough.

I'm in the process of analysing Brinn but I've been constantly distracted because for some reason everyone wants to complain to me about their problems with the opposite/same sex.

Also Lommy why does admitting his mistakes make Mac look more innocent?

edit: xed with Mrs Butterbur-Underhill

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Fea - simply feels innocent. Is rational, positively ployful and calm. Admittedly, she says some weird stuff, but oddly enough it doesn't bother me much.
Mira - does not worry me, her defending Fea and Lari makes her look innocent, unless they're all wolves.
Legate - gives no reason to suspect himself, seems open and sincere.
Nerwen - rings no bells.
Rune - too aggressive to be a wolf?

Neutral
sally - flying under my radar. I would not be surprised if she was a wraith, I definitely need to keep an eye on her...
Lari - another one who's under my radar. Could be anything.
Rikae - I'm inclined to think she's not a wraith, but she could be Ferny or Underhill.
Noggie - I don't like his Gollum-voting business at all but his annoyance feels honest and innocent.
Rego - he manages to be both all-over-the-place and careful at the same time. He comments almost everything but he does not have strong opinions. I cannot decide if it's suspicious or just a thoughtful newbie learning to get a hang of the game.
Mac - no idea. I keep flip-flopping on him so much that I don't want to say anything.
Menel - slips under my ranger. :p
Durelin - too quiet.

Suspicious
Aganzir - she just disturbs me somehow, she feels curiously detached from the game and it reminds me of her wolvish self.
Greenie - she feels a little disturbing and sneaky, some stuff she says doesn't quite sit right with me. I think, however, that I wouldn't be half this suspicious of her if others weren't suspecting her.
Brinniel - feels suspicious, to put it simply. Her comments about the ringbearer are odd.


edit: xed with Rikae and Agan

[Thinlómien]

Rikae and Agan - as for the Frodo-thing, if Kittie does not tell us about Frodo going evil, it could be rather disastrous. Rikae would get to play gifted for a few Days and cause havoc by naming known innocents and she might even be able to draw both our gifteds out of their closets to get the issue solved.

Also Lommy why does admitting his mistakes make Mac look more innocent?I don't know, it just makes it look like he has nothing to hide. Which would be smart tactics from a wraith, of course, but I want to give him the benefit of doubt for now.

[Aganzir]

Brinn started by complaining about IC posting. I find it understandable - only a few people had made lots of IC posts and there was nothing of substance yet. It's okay if everyone makes a few of them, but three people filling a page with them merits some complaint.

She might have overreacted a bit to being suspected because of her first post, but I find her reaction rather innocentish. And Rune was certainly unnecessarily evil to her.

Her opinion on Frodo is contrary to that of a loud majority but I can understand her. Yeah, of course it would be easiest for us if Frodo just came out and said Hi, here I am! but it doesn't seem fair to ask xem to do it. But it would also make it more boring. At least I would much rather figure xem out based on xyr posts than see xem reveal. It's more entertaining.
I can see why some people think she's giving hints to Frodo, but I think too much along the same lines with her to agree with them. Yeah of course it's possible, but it's also possible Brinn is just being fair.
Okay she did talk about Frodo quite a lot though.

Out of Mac, Lommy and Gollum she found Gollum the most suspicious. It's hard to say anything yet, given that Lommy's & Mac's roles are still unknown. I wasn't very suspicious of Golly but didn't like his lack of substance that much either, so I can well understand why some people wanted to lynch him.

She thought Shasta was killed because of leaving no trails. While this is possible, I find it likely that the wolves also thought he was either the seer of Frodo.

She made a list of people in #277 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=582748&postcount=277). I mostly agree with it, except that I'm not worried about Greenie. Her posts are usually well-thought out, but I don't think she was suspiciously careful.

Brinn didn't find Rikae's seer comment serious, but found everyone's reactions to it odd. What exactly do you mean by that, Brinn? How were they odd?

She said she couldn't see what benefit could come from Fea pretending Rikae was serious. I can. If Fea had a reason to assume Rikae was joking, it would have been sensible to help set her up as a wolf kill. Of course there was a risk of the real seer revealing, though, which I think is why it wasn't pursued further.
And of course Rikae can be the real seer now and she's just trying to get the baddies off track. They can never know, unless she is one of them. ;)

Now this is one option I don't get. If there's any possibility she actually is the seer, why would you spotlight it and further risk the chances of her getting killed?
Or help by misguiding the wolves to assume she isn't the seer? Anything's possible.

I think Brinn looks rather innocent in general. Her points are mostly sensible, and while I agree that she was rather tense on day 1, it seems to be more due to RL stuff. She's been much more relaxed later.

edit: xed with two Lommys

[Aganzir]

Aganzir - she just disturbs me somehow, she feels curiously detached from the game and it reminds me of her wolvish self.
Elaborate.

Rikae and Agan - as for the Frodo-thing, if Kittie does not tell us about Frodo going evil, it could be rather disastrous.
I'm more optimistic about it than you. I just don't find it very likely that even she could have pulled it off, especially as there are people who would know she's lying.

I don't know, it just makes it look like he has nothing to hide. Which would be smart tactics from a wraith, of course, but I want to give him the benefit of doubt for now.
Yes indeed - everything has two sides. And I'm not going to give him the benefit of doubt for managing to look innocent by admitting his mistakes.

I don't know what to make of Rikae and Lommy. They both look rather innocent but I seem to disagree with them on other people, especially with Lommy.

[Macalaure]

On the risk of sounding like downplaying what Rikae is saying about me, her extreme flip-flopping on me is not uncommon...

Now that Mac replied the way he did to Brinn, though, I'm not so sure. His response simply doesn't make sense.

If you say so. That's the way it was, though.

I'm tired of Mac being a baddie.

Alright, first, I'm not a baddie. Second, you can't know whether or not I'm a baddie. So, third, why do you say such a thing?

Rikae, would you share with us what exactly is creeping you out about A Little Green? I'm not trying to defend her, I'm really curious.

Also Lommy why does admitting his mistakes make Mac look more innocent?

I assume it's the way I admitted it and not the fact alone. I mean, darn, if I'm bad, why didn't I just pick up the defense that Brinn gave me??


I hate being talked about so much, because it makes me talk about myself all the time, too, from which I am learning nothing about anybody else.


edit: crossed with 2 Agans

[Aganzir]

I assume it's the way I admitted it and not the fact alone. I mean, darn, if I'm bad, why didn't I just pick up the defense that Brinn gave me??
Because some people just prefer to do it the honest way... If I had been in your place I would probably have admitted what I had really meant, regardless of my role or what would possibly be viewed as more suspicious.

I hate being talked about so much
If it comforts you, I'm starting to hate talking about you, too. :p I'm getting tired of it.

I'm also tired of forcing myself to come up with points that can back up your guilt just because you could have said so also if guilty.

[A Little Green]

What I find interesting is that all of a sudden, even though I have hardly posted at all in the last, say, 12 hours, during the last five hours I seem to have been considered sneaky and suspicious by at least Brinn, Rikae and Lommy. Lovely. I'd love to know why is that or do they just get the same gut-feeling out of nowhere?

Aganzir - she just disturbs me somehow, she feels curiously detached from the game and it reminds me of her wolvish self.
Elaborate.Agan, I really think you are being too picky here. Lom's quote indicates to a feeling-based argument, and though it's useful to consider the possible causes for a feeling, I think you are demanding too much. I don't know, possibly Lommins is able to elaborate on an overall feeling such as that; what is certain, however, is that I couldn't and I don't know many who could.

I had something else to say too but I seem to have forgotten that...

[Aganzir]

Agan, I really think you are being too picky here.
If she can realise that she thinks I am detached about the game, she should also be able to point out what has made her think so.

I hate random suspicions because once someone has a bad feeling about someone else, others start jumping in. Lommy said eg. that she wouldn't be as suspicious about you if it wasn't for other people's suspicions. So yeah.

Okay I am tired but right now I feel almost like voting for her because I'm getting annoyed with her saying "oh she's like this or she's like that" with no reason whatsoever unless specifically requested.

[Aganzir]

Rikae
Mac
Nog
Lommy

There's something going on in there. I feel somewhat positive that there's at least one baddie among them. Because there's just something weird.

Mac has made some suspicious comments.
Lommy has reacted rather strongly to these comments (and accuses me with no reason which I don't like).
Rikae has done some weird stuff but as I see it, she could have done it regardless of her role.
And Nog is just suspicious for his exaggeration of random votes.

++Mac

Because of these his death would shed the most light on other people. I don't have a valid reason to vote for Rikae or Lommy, nor would I really even like to, at least yet. Nog's connection to the others is much more vague.

I'll check Lommy's posts with a magnifying glass tomorrow if we're both still alive.

And then to bed.

[Nogrod]

The basic rule concerning any argument whatsoever: ask the critical questions and do not bog yourself down trying to explain anything.

It's easy to ask the other "why?" or "on what grounds?", but it's much harder to affirm a case or a thought as the critical inquirer can always repeat those questions whatever it is the other says.

ToDay I have no time for it but maybe toMorrow. I should - someone should - look back at the posting and see who are mainly looking good because they appear critical and thence good in that illusory-way smartly pointing at the fouls of others while reserving their own judgement or any positive cases. *This is not directed at you Aganzir, mind you :)*


Someone - I guess it was Agan - asked why I decided to mention Dury's ranger impersonation -thing on Day1, and as it looks like everyone has forgotten about it or thinks we should not say anything about it, I'll call that issue back as well as I'm having bad gut feelings about Dury.

Yes, I wrestled with myself a bit before making a call for it. But what I ended up with was that:
1) no-one could have not seen it so it was common knowledge that she had done so (just think of my surprise when someone complained s/he didn't understand what was it people were talking about!).
2) looking at the roster in this game it would be quite impossible there were no smart wolves around able to see the poor bluff made by an innocent trying to lure the wolves into attacking her and thence trying to save the real ranger.
3) that given she could be Frodo: a Frodo who would wish to turn into the dark side and thence our enemy...
4) she is not a gifted anyway as that would have been calling the wraiths on her.
5) so is she a wraith trying to lure us into thinking that she's a brave ordo trying to mislead the wraiths? Somehow that explanation seems to be the most believable to me...

Dury is experienced enough not to make the mistake of trying that kind of thing were she a gifted. But also she is experienced enough not to try that as an ordo as that is a no-win scheme (the wolves didn't kill her last Night anyway).

So the best explanation to her behaviour is that she's a wraith...

*Needs to think this again*

[Rikae]

6) It was an IC post. And, lo and behold, Durelin's character is:
"Durelin - Big person dark, mysterious, hooded and cloaked figure".

A joke, no more significant than in that long-ago game when someone chose "weaver" as his occupation. That's how I took it, that's how I'm pretty sure everybody took it (including the wraiths), and that's how I suspect Dury expected it to be taken.

Now, the question is, why is Nog blowing it up like this?

I'm going to respond about my reasons for suspecting Lily, but I'll take a minute. I've been going along, reading the posts, saying to myself "this looks sinister..." at various things, but I can't remember what those things were now and I'll have to look over her posts again.

[Macalaure]

I'm also tired of forcing myself to come up with points that can back up your guilt just because you could have said so also if guilty.

Poor thing. Please, no longer do that. :) ;)

Good analysis of Brinn, btw.


A list, just to clear my thoughts before dinner.

Sally has escaped my attention toDay and I should address that.
Fea's reaction to Rikae seems innocent.
Lari has escaped my attention, too.
Mirandir needs to give us more of her thoughts of others. She appears innocent, and especially because of that I'd value some more input.
Lommy appears to be her innocent self.
Legate is sorely missed.
Rikae could be Bill, but is most probably innocent.
Aganzir deserves to be analysed, but I won't be able to do that toDay.
Nogrod, I don't know. Apart from his vote yesterDay he hasn't actually done anything suspicious, but I have some bad feeling about him. I need another look.
Beregond is very newbie-ish, but involved and not afraid to talk. He could be a newbie-wraith, maybe.
Nerwen - I don't think her vote is suspicious and I don't see any other reason to suspect her.
Rune is grumpy and probably innocent.
Menel bugs me, but I'm not sure whether he's evil, too.
Durelin I have no idea about.
A Little Green is creepy, as in very serious and determined, and deserves another look.
Brinniel is innocent, I think.

[Rikae]

Mac, do you realize you just called everybody but Sally, Lari and Lily innocentish?

A baddie who thinks he's about to go down, and wants to avoid giving any leads, or? I really don't want you to be evil. Why do you have to keep doing such evil-looking things? *pouts*

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Nogrod.

[Brinniel]

Brinn didn't find Rikae's seer comment serious, but found everyone's reactions to it odd. What exactly do you mean by that, Brinn? How were they odd?
At the time, I couldn't see how people were suddenly taking the comment so seriously and I found it odd. I thought it was obvious she was joking.

She said she couldn't see what benefit could come from Fea pretending Rikae was serious. I can. If Fea had a reason to assume Rikae was joking, it would have been sensible to help set her up as a wolf kill. Of course there was a risk of the real seer revealing, though, which I think is why it wasn't pursued further.
I think you did a better job explaining this than Fea ever did. Yes, you're right, Fea could've had good intentions with her pretended reaction. But it's also possible her intentions were evil. She could've done it to cause distraction or possibly attempt to draw out the real seer. Really, Fea could be anything. One thing I've noticed about her is she likes to mess with everyone's heads, regardless of her role.

What I find interesting is that all of a sudden, even though I have hardly posted at all in the last, say, 12 hours, during the last five hours I seem to have been considered sneaky and suspicious by at least Brinn, Rikae and Lommy. Lovely. I'd love to know why is that or do they just get the same gut-feeling out of nowhere?
My suspicion towards you isn't just a gut-feeling. It was post #247 that raised alarms for me. All of your opinions towards the players are extremely safe, like you're trying to stay on neutral ground not committing one way or another. And yes, you are quite sneaky; in the past you've fallen under my radar quite often. But toDay I find your posts troublesome, even if they are few in numbers.

Okay I am tired but right now I feel almost like voting for her because I'm getting annoyed with her saying "oh she's like this or she's like that" with no reason whatsoever unless specifically requested.
This may be a stupid question, but were you talking about Lommy or Greenie here? I want to say the latter, but I'm not actually sure..

[A Little Green]

A Little Green is creepy, as in very serious and determined, and deserves another look.:rolleyes:
My suspicion towards you isn't just a gut-feeling. It was post #247 that raised alarms for me. All of your opinions towards the players are extremely safe, like you're trying to stay on neutral ground not committing one way or another. And yes, you are quite sneaky; in the past you've fallen under my radar quite often. But toDay I find your posts troublesome, even if they are few in numbers.I get what you mean - but although I know this is no good as a defence I must say my opinions on players are pretty much always like that, if safe means opinions like "could be either way" or "no idea" or "I'm not sure..."

Well, I'm going to vote in a very very little (green) while. I think it's gonna be Nog for me (no, don't hang yourself, it's not because you contribute). In addition to his weird Golly-vote, that Dury thing just doesn't make any sense. It looks something like a crafted case that has failed (deliberately or not) to take into account a very significant factor which is, as Rikae already pointed out, the fact that Dury's role was mysterious cloaked figure or something like that. Dunno, somehow Noggins' behaviour makes me think he's a wolf who's trying just a bit too hard.

Vote in a minute...

[A Little Green]

++ Nog

He's my best bet. Reasons in my earlier posts. Good night and Night.

[Macalaure]

Mac, do you realize you just called everybody but Sally, Lari and Lily innocentish?

No, not at all. Maybe it's more clear this way:

In need of further examination and/or somewhat suspicious right now:
Sally, Lari, Aganzir, Nogrod, Beregond, Menel, Durelin, Lily

Innocent(-ish):
Fea, Mirandir, Lommy, Legate, Rikae, Nerwen, Rune, Brinniel

Why do you have to keep doing such evil-looking things? *pouts*

It's sexy. :cool:


Alright, off getting a few second looks on people, hoping it will help.

[Thinlómien]

Elaborate.I won't. I think it was clear enough. You're starting to annoy me, in every single ww game we play together you're all the time keeping on at me like on no one else and whenever you play I can't play without having a personal Spanish Inquisition demanding me to elaborate on everything. Really, I'm starting to wonder if we should stop playing ww together as we always end up quarreling and I can't say I find it enjoyable.

Nogrod's thing on Durelin just goes plain weird, I must say I haven't understood it at any point and now it goes too far. However, it goes so far that I don't think it's even wolvish. I think he's simply a silly ordo who has drunk too much wine tonight. :rolleyes:

This may be a stupid question, but were you talking about Lommy or Greenie here? I want to say the latter, but I'm not actually sure..Oh, obviously about me.

I should vote very soon but I can't decide if I should vote Brinn, Agan or Greenie. I wish I had stronger suspicions... Really. If I vote Agan, I feel silly because it might be more of annoyance than of suspicion. If I vote Greenie, I feel silly because I think my suspicion of her has mostly come of others calling her suspicious. If I vote Brinn, I feel silly because her posts have had a rather innocent tone lately.


edit: xed with Mac

[Rikae]

Ok, about Lily:

- she spends most of her first post griping about the lack of conversation and "material" to base suspicions on. Yes, I understand the point, but why not say something to get things rolling, instead of excusing her lack of reasons for suspicion?

- askes if the ring bearer's role is revealed if xe is lynched. Not necessarily suspicious, this could be useful info for either side. (Was that question ever answered?)

- Some friendly chit-chat with Berry, then:


To be honest I have no idea - never played with a guy like that before, whatever the role is called (cursed something?) - but it would sound ideal if no one discovered the identity of our ringbearer. After all, if we find and lynch him/her, we'll be down one innocent regardless of the fact that the particular innocent could have been converted to some nasssty creature. We should probably not use our energy on hunting the ringbearer but instead on hunting the wraiths.

Now, I normally try to avoid suspecting people based on differences of opinion, and I recognize that my own isn't the only possible innocentish opinion on Mr. Frodo... but this looks like a point-by-point list of exactly what the wraiths would want us to think. First, that if Frodo reveals, he should be lynched immediately (so they at least avoid the situation where we have a known innocent), but, better yet, that no one should have any clue who he is or try to find him at all. Maybe she just didn't think it through completely, but it struck me as very creepy.

- the title of one of her posts yesterDay (her vote for Gollum, in fact): "A Shot in the Dark ". Ok, not really reason to suspect her (would wights be that obvious?), but it caught my eye without really registering it then and added to the creepy impression. :rolleyes:

-"Good night and Night."

- Overall cheery, breezy, friendly tone.

- Her points on Nog toDay. I don't necessarily trust him, but it looks like she's going after him for basically being himself (with the random votes thing).

- The "carrots" remark really did have a hint-ish look to me.

- Not part of my initial feeling of creepiness, but her reaction to suspicion doesn't look too innocent. It's too... sarcastic, insinuating, I don't know how to say it.

- Another new point: Nog was alraedy her main suspect (or so it looked) before I mentioned Dury's occupation, but she makes that one of her two reasons for voting him. She hadn't commented on it before, and it had been out there for a while.

So yeah, there it is. That and a hunch. Not much of a case, I guess, and I may retract to Mac,or somebody else, if I feel like it later, but there you go.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy.

[Thinlómien]

-"Good night and Night."She always does that and I do that pretty often too, so that's a bad argument.

- Her points on Nog toDay. I don't necessarily trust him, but it looks like she's going after him for basically being himself (with the random votes thing).She's always going after him. But that, of course, does not prove anything...

I suspect Greenie, but I think you Rikae mostly list stuff she always does. The only unheard of thing on that list is the carrot one, but I'm not sure if it's so bad...

Now I got an urge both to vote and not vote Greenie. Weird.

[Rikae]

Oops, I've gone and done it. I've had to correct myself in multiple posts because I kept wanting to call the wraiths "wights", and above I say:
(would wights be that obvious?)
Yeeeah, whatever.

Something else that occurred to me is that Noggins has to be up to something, since he hasn't been giving me the Spanish Inquisition treatment Lommy mentioned getting from Agan.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy again.

[Rikae]

I suspect Greenie, but I think you Rikae mostly list stuff she always does. The only unheard of thing on that list is the carrot one, but I'm not sure if it's so bad...


If you say so, you know her better. The main thing that creeped me out was her Frodo-speech, though.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, back but I'm babysitting for one of my ex-coworker's kids so I'll probably pop in and maybe vote, if I feel that I can do so fairly confidently.

So, without reading toDay in great detail, I was really concerned by yesterDay's voting of Gollum. Now while Mac was trying to save himself, upon looking it over again I think it was more of an innocent Mac trying to save himself while the wraiths took advantage of it.


I'm really sorry I've not been around more. I know it's Saturday, so theoretically I should have been around more but with Emily coming back and everything it's been nuts. I'll do what I can but for now accept apologies for my laziness.


Blah. I need to go. Hopefully back soon.

[Meneltarmacil]

I've been checking out Aganzir lately so as to focus on people other than Mac. She mostly appears to be innocent, but without a lot of ideas as to what to do, and frequently mentions Nogrod, who strikes her as an enigma.

I'd like to say that, contrary to things I mentioned earlier, a lack of suggestions really should not define one as a wraith, given that I certainly haven't a clue as to what to look for.

Also, Rikae and Mac have both said disturbing things that serve to confuse the village a great deal. Why would these two want to distract us such? Is one of them a wraith?

I really should vote, so

++Mac

[Thinlómien]

++Aganzir

I still think her style is a curious mixture of her relaxed, bantery and nit-picky ordo-style and her careful, detached wolf-style - exactly what I'd expect from her after a long pause from being a wolf. (Obviously, she can't go back to her previous wolf-style because it'd make people raise eyebrows, but she might subconsciously partly latch back to it.) Also, she tends to get annoyed at me but she feels jumpier than normally.

And if you want me to, I can admit this vote is also partly because I currently feel we two just can't play ww together, at least not this way. And I wouldn't be sorry at all to see her go before she can look at my posts with a magnifying glass and unleash the Infernal Inquisition. I think I'm being quite horrible to her, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm simply writing what I feel right now.

If we're both alive toMorrow I hope we can be more civil to each other...


edit: xed with Sally and Menel

[Nerwen]

Just a quick note to say that I have been out most of the day and have to leave again almost immediately; I'm probably going to abstain from voting as I haven't had time to read the thread.

[Rikae]

So, without reading toDay in great detail, I was really concerned by yesterDay's voting of Gollum. Now while Mac was trying to save himself, upon looking it over again I think it was more of an innocent Mac trying to save himself while the wraiths took advantage of it.


I'm sorry, but that really doesn't make any sense at all, as far as I can see. Why would the wraiths "take advantage" of an innocent Mac's desire to save himself in order to lynch an ordo Gollum? If Mac is innocent, wouldn't they be equally happy to see him go? Nerwen's vote looked odd to me at the time (mostly the way she seemed to have no opinion, but pounce on Gollum as soon as he became an option), but I still don't think your scenario is logical.

Actually, the only logical evil-Nerwen explaination I can think of is that Nerwen is Ferny, and thought any of those three could well have been wraiths, while Gollum couldn't.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy, as always, and Nerwen herself.

[Macalaure]

Also, Rikae and Mac have both said disturbing things that serve to confuse the village a great deal. Why would these two want to distract us such? Is one of them a wraith?

I really should vote, so

++Mac

What gives you the impression that I wanted to distract? :rolleyes:

[Brinniel]

Keeping track of the votes:

Rikae: ++Greenie (Greenie 1)
Aganzir: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 1)
Greenie: ++Nogrod (Greenie 1, Mac 1, Nogrod 1)
Menel: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1)
Lommy: ++Aganzir (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1)

[Rikae]

By the way, I thought Menel was being utterly nonsensical because he was the seer, and didn't want to give that as his reason for lynching Mac and get himself killed so early.

But now it's pretty clear that isn't the case... and he's jumping on an easy suspect with reasons that make no sense at all. (If you didn't catch it, he cites Mac's "ongoing suspicion" of Gollum). I don't know what else Menel is, but he seems like a loose cannon.

[Macalaure]

Sally did a vote count today and has yet to share some of her own thoughts. Yesterday she kidded around until others set the field, from which she chose me (and Brinn). For anybody else, this would be suspicious, but for Sally, it's different. ;) She needs to be watched, though. Like Rikae, I'd like to hear what she meant with wraiths taking advantage of me trying to save myself.


What still nags me about Beregond is his bandwaggony vote yesterDay. Other than that, he's not very suspicious. He points out his newbieness a bit too much, though - something packmates could have told him to do.


Lari has been constrained by time yesterDay, but I wonder whether she couldn't have used the time she had more productively. She only makes a list before her vote and the opinions given in there leave to be desired. She admitted to that later, but that doesn't make it better.

Lommy: For reasons stated before.What were those?

She later likes to vote Lommy but goes for Durelin to avoid a double lynch. Note that she, even though time was available, did not retract after she knew there were none. ToDay she complains about the voting yesterDay.

She's suspicious, but I wouldn't vote for her until she posted more.

[Rikae]

She later likes to vote Lommy but goes for Durelin to avoid a double lynch. Note that she, even though time was available, did not retract after she knew there were none. ToDay she complains about the voting yesterDay.


So she did. I had forgotten that, but it was strange.

[Macalaure]

I looked over Durelin's posts and I don't have any idea where the whole ranger-hint-affair came from. Her actual input is scarce. She has not appeared yet toDay. I need to see more of her before I can form an opinion.

Menel has been utterly fixed on me. Granted, maybe I voted for him once too often, but this is not helpful. However, if he's so fixed on me, why is he not able to come up with better points?
What I'm asking myself: would a wraith act like that? I used to tend towards 'no', but I'm starting to lose my objectivity with him and just try to lynch him anyway.

Looking over the points in Rikae's post and Lommy's reply, I'm willing to let go of Lily. I will keep on watching her, though.

[Nogrod]

6) It was an IC post. And, lo and behold, Durelin's character is:
"Durelin - Big person dark, mysterious, hooded and cloaked figure".

A joke, no more significant than in that long-ago game when someone chose "weaver" as his occupation. That's how I took it, that's how I'm pretty sure everybody took it (including the wraiths), and that's how I suspect Dury expected it to be taken.

Now, the question is, why is Nog blowing it up like this?I can't see why you ask for that if you're innocent... She's no gifted because that's a bit too daring for a gifted to do. So why that kind of banter which clearly makes her look like a ranger imposter? I can't believe it was "just banter" because it was so fitting and exact - and open. Why to do something that way if you were a) a gifted (no way!), or b) an ordo? I mean on Day6 an ordo should pull that but why she made it in the first post of Day1? I'm regarding Dury as a most intelligent person so then she's probably no ordo as the wrights would not be that easily misled and she would know it. So the remaining option is that she is a wright trying to fool us.

Okay, I may have better cases... I need to see to them.

Funny how you interpret someone voicing a thing as something in a way that one is "pressing on as the sole thing there is". I have been sharing the computer with Lommy and Greenie all the night and we have been playing (RL) together most of the night, so I have just commented on things that have occured to me on my twenty minutes by the computer at a time... Had I more time I could look after some others as well.

Lommy & Greenie just went to bed and it's coming 6AM here... I'd need to vote and go to sleep as well... Just a moment. I'll try to look around before voting.

[Mirandir]

Okeedokee I'm back (two hours later than originally intended, but back nonetheless). I read through everything quickly to get an idea for what's going on and now I'll be going back and figuring out what the heck I think about everyone.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nog- go to bed! It's late! So late it's early! :eek:;)

More interestingly as far as the game goes-

I don't think we should lynch Mac.

Not today, in any case.

So um... can we not?

Then again, I don't actually have any better options, so this is quite a useless post...

[Lariren Shadow]

Sorry to again be gone for the almost entry Day.

In RL I went wine tasting, so I needed a lot of time to recover. On page 9 by this point.

As for the suspicions: I was going to restate the ones that previous people said. I know I was called out last time for doing that so I decided not to.

Putting it out there though: the vote from the end of yesterday made me really think. It didn't look right, even if I've seen Mac do that before. When he did it before it was really into the game, now it was really quick. Not to mention his quick accusations of only three people while everyone else apparently looks innocentish(never mind there still isn't a lot to go on).

Nerwen also didn't come off too good in that episode either.

[Macalaure]

I should have a closer look at Aganzir and Nogrod, but my brain is starting to fail, so I'll postpone that until toMorrow. All I can add at this point is that Nogrod's thing about Durelin makes no sense, and his insistence on it makes me suspicious. Whether or not it is significant I cannot say yet, so I will neither vote him toDay, nor Aganzir.

[Macalaure]

Putting it out there though: the vote from the end of yesterday made me really think. It didn't look right, even if I've seen Mac do that before. When he did it before it was really into the game, now it was really quick.So you think I enjoy dying on Day1 more than on Day3? :Merisu:

Not to mention his quick accusations of only three people while everyone else apparently looks innocentish(never mind there still isn't a lot to go on).Umm, what?

[Beregond]

I've having a hard time with you, Mac! You're still high on my list of suspects, but when I ask myself why, I can't put my finger on it. I might read through to see. Either you're simply innocent, or very dogdy! It's cruel, but I almost want to vote for you just to find out. You may be right about the bandwagon vote yesterDay, but it was that or an essentially random vote. I'll vote again tonight with a more informed gut and hopefully a clear head and if it looks like bandwagoning, so be it! :)

I'm curious, Fea, if you have a reason you'd like to share for sparing Mac?

On an aside, I'm a bit bemused by the idea that it may be bad to restate other people's opinions and use them in one's own conclusions. Sure, it would be great to be the first person to notice a quote that looks suspicious, but most of the time other people see the same things you do, and often write about them quicker.

Alright, I might make a list now.

[Macalaure]

Looks like I'm in for a hard night again. :rolleyes:

Well, bring them on! :p

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

So what if I am slightly drunk!? You would be as well if you spend all day selling Brie to people totaly ignorant about the quality of cheese.

Listen now and listen well, I am going to go out in the kitchen and fetch a liter of milk, I am going to drink it, come back, vote Mac and of course read the two pages I have yet to read!

. . . I mean. . . Then I am going to cast my vote for someone undefined.

[Nogrod]

All I can add at this point is that Nogrod's thing about Durelin makes no sense, and his insistence on it makes me suspicious. Sad that you fail to see that. Well I'm not going to force my opinion on the matter - and what you say about my "insistence" clearly tells you have not been reading the thread... Too bad as I have kind of counted on you to be one of those who actually read what is said unlike some who just pop in and vote. :(

I'm not having Dury as my first choice toDay but she will be one from whom I will choose my vote.

But I'd just like to remind you that there are a host of people no one has had nothing to say or have just benevolently put them aside. Many of you have talked about Rikae, Mac, Aganzir, Lommy, Greenie, Brinn, Menel, Nerwen, Dury and me...

But who has glanced at Sally, Lari, Beregond, Fea, Mirandir, Legate, Rune?

I'll bet you there is at least one (and possibly two) ringwraith(s) in there in the latter company as well.
In a way I'd be more than happy to vote someone from the latter list. Just to protest the fact that people who talk more seem to top the lynching list everyday in any game of werewolf...

[Meneltarmacil]

Actually, it's not about revenge, craziness, being a wraith, or anything else, Mac. It's just that I really have no idea what to do, found a few odd things in your posts, and can't figure out anything else.

I'm sorry, really. :(

[Macalaure]

Alright, that might've sounded a bit too flippant.

I mean, I have two votes and now two people I suspect state that they suspect me on suspect reasons that might or might not be subject to change til they vote. Now I'm sitting here waiting for the things to happen and wondering whether I will have to fight til the last minute again or not and whether I will make it this time and whether I'll be forced to vote for somebody I think is likely innocent again instead of someone I actually suspect.

crossed since my last post

[Mirandir]

Nerwen - No reason to be suspicious as of yet.

Brinniel - I don't know, something about her posting style rubs me the wrong way. For the time being, though, I can't quite figure out what and will most likely refrain from voting her until I have something more substantial to go on.

Greenie - Trying to figure this kid out. Keeping an eye out for the time being.

Agan - Hasn't really said anything to make me suspicious as of yet.

Lommy
Oh, holy cow, I just realised something. Rikae is either the seer or then she's a really twisted person with an ingenious plot, but I'm not sure if I should explain that plot of hers aloud, because I might do something horrible if I draw her plans out in the open...

Such as...? Could be innocent or could be alluding to a more devious role.

Rune
oh just a quick note about Frodo: Obviously people can play how they wish, but I always got the impression that Frodo was on our side. This should mean that he does not speculate in shifting sides and such, so Frodo should always act in a way that benifits his current team.

What does "our side" mean? Is this giving away that he is innocent? Or is it a ploy to make people think he is innocent when he's really a wraith? Someone to keep an eye on, for sure.

Rikae - Very suspicious of her "I am the seer" post. Most likely it was a joke (as she claimed), but still warrants suspicion. Then there was the "Of course I'm Frodo" (313) casual comment, which, as with everything else in this game, could be interpreted as truth or trickery and no one really knows for sure which one.

Mac
Alright, first, I'm not a baddie. Second, you can't know whether or not I'm a baddie. So, third, why do you say such a thing?

Or maybe you are a baddie and are trying to throw us off the track. Old habits do die hard. Other than that, don't have much to be suspicious about.

Lari - Oh wine tasting. Silly RL getting in the way of WW. No reason to suspect her at the moment.

Nog
This idea, shared by Aganzir at least, is just... well, annoying. But it might be a plot made by the wolves and therefore maybe it's good it has been brought forwards. It might serve a purpose after all.

But to be honest it's a ridiculous claim. To those who don't know it, this idea comes from the following history. During the fall I was a wolf in a couple of games and more or less forced my mates in crime to kill silent, non-active, only IC players or "less dangerous" / less "independent-minded" players - whatever you read into those - during the Night (and I have acted on similarish principles as wolf also earlier). But after those few games quite recently it became kind of "talk of he town" - and we indeed lost the last one of those games because of the boldness of our kill-choices - or shared knowledge that if some of the less "threatening"-looking players are killed by Night early in the game then Nogrod is a wolf behind that decision. Now knowing how desperately certain people cling to the first possible reason to find something to suspect or to back their votes with, it would be plain suicidal for me to continue in that manner now that the meme "Noggie always does that" is around.

So rest assured, were I a wolf in this game it would have been fex. Rikae or Legate you would have found dead this morning (assuming neither was a wolf as well of course).

I understand feeling the need to justify what people think from other games, but it could also be taken as a sign of guilt. What better way to throw people off your scent than to make a point of saying what would happen if you were a wolf? Should keep an eye on.

Fea - Tricksy as usual...Sigh. I had a hard enough time reading her last game when I knew what her role is, let alone now that I don't. Probably will keep her around for a little while longer to see how much more confused she can make people, at the very least.

Beregond - I honestly have no idea what to think about this guy. Half the time he seems newbie-ish and half the time he seems to have solid backing and know what he's talking about. Keeping an eye on he-of-many-names. :p

Menel - Hasn't given me any reason to want him dead as of yet.

Durelin - Hasn't contributed much toDay.

Legate - Hasn't been around toDay.

Sally - Also hasn't been around toDay due to RL.


And what about Strider? Nothing has been mentioned about who xe could be, other than some talk on page 8 about Durelin:
6) It was an IC post. And, lo and behold, Durelin's character is:
"Durelin - Big person dark, mysterious, hooded and cloaked figure".

but character descriptions were made before roles were given out, so this very well could mean absolutely nothing (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible).

[Mirandir]

Hopefully that satiates multiple peoples' desires for more analysis of people on my part. It certainly took forever. :D

[Macalaure]

Sad that you fail to see that. Well I'm not going to force my opinion on the matter - and what you say about my "insistence" clearly tells you have not been reading the thread... Too bad as I have kind of counted on you to be one of those who actually read what is said unlike some who just pop in and vote.

By insistence I mean the way you replied to Rikae and don't seem to see that what Durelin said was very likely IC. I also think you're going a bit too far with that up there.

It's just that I really have no idea what to do, found a few odd things in your posts, and can't figure out anything else.

Hey, there's still time to find alternatives.

[Durelin]

Durelin spent 47 hours brooding in her dark corner, pondering her now dual purpose. There was double the pondering to be done, and time was growing short.

[Nogrod]

I mean, I have two votes and now two people I suspect state that they suspect me on suspect reasons that might or might not be subject to change til they vote. Now I'm sitting here waiting for the things to happen and wondering whether I will have to fight til the last minute again or not and whether I will make it this time and whether I'll be forced to vote for somebody I think is likely innocent again instead of someone I actually suspect.
Sounds soo familiar... :rolleyes:

I see why people suspect you. On Day1 your speculation did look like you were giving hints to the other side and toDay your reactions to Rikae's "reveal" looked bad indeed.

But you make yourself very innocent otherwise... So a skilfull wolf or just a sometimes misguided ordo? I might vote for you but I'm reluctant to do it as it's only Day2 now.

Like with anyone, it's only our death that will confirm our innocence - or guilt. But being an ordo we should not be thinking about if some of our suspicions were not too well-received or if our suspecting someone were to produce a counter-attack or anything. The sincerity of our words are proved afterwards but our goal is to draw the baddies forwards before the game ends.

[Lariren Shadow]

Umm, what?

Note that is what happens when I don't read clearly enough. I thought you were convienently making three people look guilty. Then I counted again.

[Durelin]

So, the uncertainty of my gender aside...

Brinniel still bothers me. Nerwen and Fea bother me - Nerwen for her vote, Fea for her reaction to Rikae's seer comment. Nogrod bothers me too, but he also amuses me right now, and I do not think he's a wraith. Really all the late Gollum-voters bother me right now. It really grates on my nerves when the lynchee is chosen by people compromising on an easy target - someone who does not play how they wish people to play.

At any rate, back to brooding for a bit.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm curious, Fea, if you have a reason you'd like to share for sparing Mac?

Not that I'd like to share, no...

Durelin spent 47 hours brooding in her dark corner, pondering her now dual purpose. There was double the pondering to be done, and time was growing short.

Seriously? You're not thinking it's a bit late for IC posting?

[Durelin]

Durelin stared broodingly at the glowing embers in the fireplace. Emnity filled the room, thick as smoke. They were surely doomed.

[Brinniel]

And what about Strider? Nothing has been mentioned about who xe could be, other than some talk on page 8 about Durelin
Why would we talk about Strider?

[Mirandir]

Why would we talk about Strider?

Because there's been speculation about every other role. I just thought it was strange, nothing more, nothing less.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Why would we talk about Strider?

Because it can be useful to have a good idea who is playing the Ranger role.

Which seems to be what Durelin's getting at.

What I can't figure out about this game is what's with the mysterious 'obvious' reveals so early on? Rikae playing seer, Durelin posting only in Ranger garb (and third person)... What is this about? Is it just a reignited desire for simple playfulness?

Or is there something secret going on with roles? Or like...

I just can't figure out why ordos would set themselves up to be lynched unless they're taking one for the team in effort to set up a bandwagon so the people later on can analyze what happened?

Like... it just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm very tempted to vote Dury as I don't know what she's playing at. I feel like the Ranger wouldn't make a point of making herself wraith-bait.

[Mirandir]

I agree with Fea. Why would a Ranger make such a point of being out in the open? That's like screaming "Here I am! Come kill me!" That's just poor gameplay in my opinion. Unless, as Fea said, Durelin is playing at something else. Seems mighty suspicious to me.

[Lariren Shadow]

In no particular order, just happens to be how they are listed for living:

Sally: Nothing has caught my attention yet. Seems genuinely innocent.

Fea: Honestly, I have no idea what to think of her and Rikae's bantering. Even when I was on her side I still couldn't pin her. Something tells me she's worth looking at, but then again I also know her kamakazi style.


Mirandir: Newbie still, gets that for protection. Will keep on eye on her though. And yes, wine tasting did get in the way.

Lommy: Seems innocent enough. Nothing that I can see that screams "look at me I'm a wolf!"

Legate: I can't really get a good read on him. I can't even remember if he posted today(and am running out of time to look).

Rikae: I didn't like her bantering about being the seer/Frodo. She's a good player, from what I can tell now, but that doesn't sit well with me. Either she's playing ordo Fea style or she's a wolf. And I'm right now leaning more towards the wolf part of that.

Agan: Am entirly not sure what to think. She's playing it rather interestingly. I'm leaning towards more of a guilty party with her, but I don't really have any evidence other than I think there is something there.

Nogrod: Is interesting to finally play with past Day 1. I'm not sure what to think of all his posts, but am leaning towards a more innocent feel. His lists of people are interesting as well.

Beregond: Is new like Mirandir so gets the same newbie protection. However, has not fully slipped my radar.

Nerwen: I didn't like the voting yesterday. Not at all. Something about it didn't look right.

Rune: I have absolutly no idea.

Mac: Well, I do still think that you are not entirly innocent because of your trying to save yourself.

Menel: No idea.

Durelin: Besides not really liking the first post(though it was good) other than the feeling that the character that's like a ranger would not be a ranger but made a wolf(if I were picking) don't have anything on her.

A Little Green: Nothing really on her either.

Brinniel: Seems innocent enough. Nothing really jumping out at me on her.

Ok, there it is. I'm still not sure who to vote for and I have about 30 minutes to decide.

[Nogrod]

I'm very tempted to vote Dury as I don't know what she's playing at. I feel like the Ranger wouldn't make a point of making herself wraith-bait.Exactly what I have been trying to say. But now as you say it as well I'm getting a bit reluctant to do that... :rolleyes:

I just can't figure out why ordos would set themselves up to be lynched unless they're taking one for the team in effort to set up a bandwagon so the people later on can analyze what happened?Exactly that Fea! Sad if that has never occured to you.

But the problem sure is that these we have (Rikae and Dury) do not look like they fitted the description of an innocent laying a trap.

So you say it doesn't make sense with you? But how about if one of them (or both) were wraiths / Ferny / Frodo with a stinking morals? Wouldn't it make sense then?

[Durelin]

Fea, you seem off to me. You go back and forth between a knowing hush-hush to "we should talk about all the roles", and you're nearly as jumpy as Nogrod when it comes to conspiracy theories. Overall you're being rather boring, especially for you. :(

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

First of all. . . You guys talk to much and I should like to strike you all down!


The List:

Suspicious
Sally
Fea
Greenie

Watching
Legate
Nerwen
Aganzir

No Clue
Lari
Mira
Rikae
Beregond
Mac
Menel

Innocent
Lommy
Nogrod
Durelin


My ego is hurt!
Why did I not make "The List"?


Of course. Voting one of the two (or the one) who was ahead of Gollum and not a wraith.


But what if both where wraiths?


Ok, it was maybe not nice of me to say that. It's true, however, that people have built up reputations in all the games they've played, and that people often shy away from lynching someone with a higher reputation, if only by the number of games played, when they have no real reason to. All of us three have played more games than Gollum and had more successes (more defeats, too, but those are usually forgotten quickly).

To be honest (I have to try everything once) I cannot remember you or Lommy being succesfull in wraithwolf, but I do have a selective memory.

I'd suggest we keep any speculation regarding the Innkeeper/Seer to ourselves. Discussing Seerish comments openly just draws the wraiths towrd the true Seer, which isn't good. True, it may help to protect said person, but I personally think it wise to conceal the Seer's identity from xyr enemies as long as possible.

What!?

I was joking, but I won't say I wasn't well aware somebody might make something of it, and I thought what they made of it might be useful.
Mac, I've tested you three times now, and you've earned my trust. If you're a baddie, kudos.

He earned your trust because he passed some more or less imaginary tests? Come on. . . fair enough if he goes to the bottom of you list of suspects, but to trust him.

Why is it that I feel completely lost? I'm not smart enough to get any sense out of all this suttf. I've lost the track of this discussion completely. Shall we talk about... hmmm... carrots? :Merisu:


I am kind of like Beregond, I like potatos better

Brinn started by complaining about IC posting. I find it understandable - only a few people had made lots of IC posts and there was nothing of substance yet. It's okay if everyone makes a few of them, but three people filling a page with them merits some complaint.

She might have overreacted a bit to being suspected because of her first post, but I find her reaction rather innocentish. And Rune was certainly unnecessarily evil to her.

Her opinion on Frodo is contrary to that of a loud majority but I can understand her. Yeah, of course it would be easiest for us if Frodo just came out and said Hi, here I am! but it doesn't seem fair to ask xem to do it. But it would also make it more boring. At least I would much rather figure xem out based on xyr posts than see xem reveal. It's more entertaining.
I can see why some people think she's giving hints to Frodo, but I think too much along the same lines with her to agree with them. Yeah of course it's possible, but it's also possible Brinn is just being fair.
Okay she did talk about Frodo quite a lot though.

Out of Mac, Lommy and Gollum she found Gollum the most suspicious. It's hard to say anything yet, given that Lommy's & Mac's roles are still unknown. I wasn't very suspicious of Golly but didn't like his lack of substance that much either, so I can well understand why some people wanted to lynch him.

She thought Shasta was killed because of leaving no trails. While this is possible, I find it likely that the wolves also thought he was either the seer of Frodo.

She made a list of people in #277 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=582748&postcount=277). I mostly agree with it, except that I'm not worried about Greenie. Her posts are usually well-thought out, but I don't think she was suspiciously careful.

Brinn didn't find Rikae's seer comment serious, but found everyone's reactions to it odd. What exactly do you mean by that, Brinn? How were they odd?

She said she couldn't see what benefit could come from Fea pretending Rikae was serious. I can. If Fea had a reason to assume Rikae was joking, it would have been sensible to help set her up as a wolf kill. Of course there was a risk of the real seer revealing, though, which I think is why it wasn't pursued further.
And of course Rikae can be the real seer now and she's just trying to get the baddies off track. They can never know, unless she is one of them. ;)


Or help by misguiding the wolves to assume she isn't the seer? Anything's possible.

I think Brinn looks rather innocent in general. Her points are mostly sensible, and while I agree that she was rather tense on day 1, it seems to be more due to RL stuff. She's been much more relaxed later.

WRAITH SEEKING FRIEND TO MANIPULATE

It could be that Aganzir and Brinn agree on everything, but it could also be that Aganzir is trying to win an innocent over to her side.

This post might be enough for me to vote Aganzir

I've been checking out Aganzir lately This is a Tolkien site, not a dating site!



But I'd just like to remind you that there are a host of people no one has had nothing to say or have just benevolently put them aside. Many of you have talked about Rikae, Mac, Aganzir, Lommy, Greenie, Brinn, Menel, Nerwen, Dury and me...

But who has glanced at Sally, Lari, Beregond, Fea, Mirandir, Legate, Rune?

I'll bet you there is at least one (and possibly two) ringwraith(s) in there in the latter company as well.
In a way I'd be more than happy to vote someone from the latter list. Just to protest the fact that people who talk more seem to top the lynching list everyday in any game of werewolf...
My god(s) what a non-statement!
I too could pick out half of the people playing this game, say that and have a good chance of being right.
It is fair enought that you want people to focus on everybody, but the part about how many wraiths to find in that group is just silly.



Rune


What does "our side" mean? Is this giving away that he is innocent? Or is it a ploy to make people think he is innocent when he's really a wraith? Someone to keep an eye on, for sure.



I put it there for you to think about

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You go back and forth between a knowing hush-hush to "we should talk about all the roles"

If you look real close, you'll notice a cross post between me going hush-hush- and Rikae showing back up. Once she nixed what I thought she was doing, I went back to transparency in the system. Innocents with nothing to hide should have no problem revealing their innocent intentions.

Exactly that Fea! Sad if that has never occured to you.

It's occurred to me that I want to sacrifice a fellow wolf every time I play an evil role. But there never seems to be any support from my colleagues... :rolleyes:

++Durelin

Support my vote if you want.

[Lariren Shadow]

But the problem sure is that these we have (Rikae and Dury) do not look like they fitted the description of an innocent laying a trap.

So you say it doesn't make sense with you? But how about if one of them (or both) were wraiths / Ferny / Frodo with a stinking morals? Wouldn't it make sense then?

Dury could be Frodo trying to join the wraiths and be doing it that way. Someone did say that if they were Frodo they would have fun with it, and maybe Dury's idea of fun is becoming an extra baddie and helping them win.

[Durelin]

If you think I'm a suicidal baddy (who could have easily "flown under the radar" as many put it), so be it. You all deserved more of my foolishness after being so foolish yourselves, thinking my character-role was anything else. :p

Distraction pushed aside with regret, I will make up my mind who to vote for in the next 20 minutes anyway...

[Lariren Shadow]

Rikae: ++Greenie (Greenie 1)
Aganzir: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 1)
Greenie: ++Nogrod (Greenie 1, Mac 1, Nogrod 1)
Menel: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1)
Lommy: ++Aganzir (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1)
Fea: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 1)

[Brinniel]

Of those who have already been voted for, Greenie is the one I'd most likely vote for. My opinions of her haven't changed.

Nogrod's suspicions of Durelin do seem rather silly, however I don't think he has evil intentions. It seems more likely he's a misguided innocent with flawed reasoning.

I haven't been paying much attention to Mac, probably because his posts don't strike me either way. As of now, I can't see any strong enough reasoning to lynch him, but I definitely would like to have a closer look at him come toMorrow.

I still find Fea suspicious. And the whole seer reaction doesn't help.

Sally also remains on my suspicion list for her posts yesterDay. But she was hardly around toDay, and I'd like to hear more from her.

EDIT: X-ed a whole bunch

[Nogrod]

I too could pick out half of the people playing this game, say that and have a good chance of being right. Anyone of us could. You're right about that. But that was not the point - and you know it well enough. It was a question of why people discuss certain people and "forget" some others... It's basic marxist theory as you know: people are driven to concentrate on certain things because so many others talk about them (like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton) and they think that's important while the people running the real things like those in the head of the investment-banks get passed without a notice... :confused:

It's occurred to me that I want to sacrifice a fellow wolf every time I play an evil role. But there never seems to be any support from my colleagues...

++Durelin

Support my vote if you want. I already said I was a bit reluctant to vote for Dury even if I have concerns about her but this might do it... Or are there people enough to lynch Fea?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Or are there people enough lynch Fea?

Revenge, darling, for last game?

I thought you were going to bed. :cool:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Stop this nonsense!

Fea is just like an independent candidate, too good to be voted for!

[Meneltarmacil]

Rune, if we openly discussed who the seer was and came to the conclusion that, say, Gil-Galad was giving off seerish vibes, do you really think the wraiths wouldn't seriously consider killing Gil the next night?

[Rikae]

There are a lot of things that aren't making sense in this game, and I'm not talking about Durelin.

(By the way, Mira, yes, the occupations were chosen before the roles were given that was my point. She was posting in-character and it means nothing. Heck, I think I've seen her play that same role in another game)

Fea, what does trying to trick newbies accomplish? Unless you're trying to trick someone else, in which case...

well, it's odd that Nog backed off like that.

I'm probably crossing with a whole army, I was interrupted while writing.

[Lariren Shadow]

So where did this "lynch Fea" thing come into play? Not that I'm defending her, it just seems to be, well, really spontanious and not right. And I can't spell.

[Brinniel]

My ego is hurt!
Why did I not make "The List"?
I forgot someone? I think I'm starting to make a habit out of forgetting people. :rolleyes:

You would've been in the "No Clue" section.

like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton
I find it scary to see those names in a WW thread. :eek:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, what does trying to trick newbies accomplish? Unless you're trying to trick someone else, in which case...

Wait... did they tell you I was being a bad influence? :p

No, seriously, this is the first game in like three years where I've done nothing naughty and have only actually been trying to aid the ordinary villagers. Weird, right? I'm not used to it. That's probably why I'm coming off as residually evil: old habits die hard, you know?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rune, if we openly discussed who the seer was and came to the conclusion that, say, Gil-Galad was giving off seerish vibes, do you really think the wraiths wouldn't seriously consider killing Gil the next night?

Alright, the confusion is probably my fault as I am actually under the influence of alcohol. . .I was out celebrating Australia day with some freinds and yes I know that Australia day is not until monday, but I am busy monday. . .

"True, it may help to protect said person,"

This was what confused me. . .how does it protect said person?

[Nogrod]

it's odd that Nog backed off like that. Backed off from what?

[Durelin]

Brinniel's, Nerwen's, A Little Green's, Sally's, and Fea's votes bother me the most.

Brinniel's because she was sealing Gollum's fate, and wasn't Mac or Rikae who jointly wished to save Mac which is...okay for now...

Nerwen and Greenie's cause they started the ball rolling on Gollum as the typical day 1 lynch for the heck of it.

Sally's put Mac up there, seemingly out of sexism. :p

Fea's put Brinn up there, and she was looking like another easy target because of her mood.

[Mirandir]

I love it when we decide to randomly lynch Fea! *throws a party*


Juuuuuust kidding! :D

Crap, 8 minutes to deadline. Better figure out who I'm voting for. *scampers off*

[Brinniel]

So where did this "lynch Fea" thing come into play? Not that I'm defending her, it just seems to be, well, really spontanious and not right.
I can't speak for others, but it shouldn't be spontaneous from me. I've been suspecting her since the beginning of the Day, and each post makes me feel worse about her. If I do vote for her, it really shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea's put Brinn up there, and she was looking like another easy target because of her mood.

You're talking yesterday, obviously, since tonight my goal was actually to get you killed...

[Beregond]

Ahhhhhh, so many posts! And I'm getting tired.

In the order I happen to type them:


Mac: can't decide. Afraid to make a mistake on someone who could be very helpful. Like I said before, has answered accusations well, but I do not want to underestimate his cunning. If we were in decent places I'd believe him when he says he's not a baddie, but we're not in decent places. Don't actually want to vote for him, but I'm still more suspicious of him than of any of the others.

Nog: got attention for overreaction to random votes. And now again for comments about Durelin. But in all his posts I haven't seen something that makes him seem particularly like a wraith. Again, watching, but not wanting to act.

Rikae: have no idea what to think about her. Have some ideas as to who she might be, but in reality it could be anyone. Thinking she's innocent; certainly not taking a chance by voting.

Brinn: the only thing about her is I didn't understand why she was so surprised when Fea (and myself) commented about Rikae. Besides this incident, I'm not sure where Brinn stands. I'm going to be watching her, but she's safe for now because I don't have much to go on.

Fea: has been generally thinking the same as me, from what I can tell, so I have no reason to vote her off. People say "tricksy" but that's all so far.

Mirandir: don't know what to think of you either! Haven't garnered an opinion from reading your posts, but I will say you're not looking out of place in what is also your first game. (referring to you directly because you mentioned me in your list).

Menel: not posted much. Seems suspicious of Mac like I am, but I'm likewise suspicious of Menel, maybe from said lack of posting, though doubtless he has a good reason.

Durelin: I took the ranger comment on day one as nothing but IC. It could be a real hint, I guess, but even so I don't see the good in discussing it, because I don't think anyone but the wraiths want to know about Strider (at least, I don't know why we would, since no one can protect him?).

Rune: has seemed innocent.

Greenie: I didn't find her suspicious like others did. Paying more attention to her, but not from what I've seen myself.

Agan: same as Greenie. Posted a lot, didn't say anything particularly out of place.

Thinlomien: seems innocent enough.

Lari: not enough to go on either.

Nerwen: same.

Legate: still nothing. Could well be a very cunning wraith in hiding, but nothing to indicate such.

Sally: didn't post enough today.


Responding to Fea: I don't see "taking one for the team" as bad, or unlikely, but it might be ill-advised in most situations.

I'm finding it amusing that since the mass-nicknaming of day one, I've gone back to being called Beregond. :p I don't have a problem with many nicknames, really.

I've probably crossed with a few people as well. The action is furious.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I feel like lynching Aganzir or Durelin

[Nogrod]

I love it when we decide to randomly lynch Fea! *throws a party* WE might do it for a reason as well... :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nogrod! Stop it! :Merisu:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Did I mention that I really do not want Fea to die. . . . ?

[Nogrod]

Nogrod! Stop it! :Merisu::D

[Lariren Shadow]

Ok, so even after a lot of thinking and really not going off of what Rune said, my vote is:

++Durelin

I know its IC voting, but part of me thinks that putting her as a wolf would have been genius.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yeah, since when have we been paying attention to me? I thought this day was basically dedicated to figuring out what Rikae was doing with her "I'm the Seer" joke, and then trying late to decipher Dury's Ranger wannabe-ness.

She should be posting content, not just in character narration.

[Nogrod]

Anyone having an idea about the votes thus far?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Durelin

[Mirandir]

This is a hard one. I pick...the phantom! Just kidding. Fea = bad influence.

In all seriousness, I think I'm going to vote Durelin tonight. Posting IC 40 minutes before deadline seems like a strange move, and it makes me very suspicious. (See my above post for more explanation)

++Durelin

x-ed with Nog, Lari, Fea, Nog, and Rune

[Brinniel]

Crap, three minutes til deadline. Everyone's gonna x-post their votes, I just know it. :rolleyes:

++Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

That's what you get for calling me boring!

[Macalaure]

++Durelin

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have no really good explanation for voting Durlein other than she seem slightly off. . .and that I really want to keep fea in the game.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*is not boring*

[Durelin]

++Mac

[Brinniel]

Btw, I don't like this Durelin bandwagon. I'm not sure why everyone finds her suspicious. I'll have to look at the voting toMorrow.

[Kitanna]

D-d-d-deadline. I'm going to tally the votes (though I think Durelin is the kill). I'll reveal the lynchee's role when I tally the votes. I'll get a proper narration up when I wake up in the morning.

[Nogrod]

Oh my... I'll have to stick with it then and pay the consequences...

++ Durelin

EDIT: X'd with the deadline... sorry. I was trying to get a glimpse of the votes and was late.

[Beregond]

Looking at my list, there's probably a wraith or two, or three, among the ones I labeled as "innocent." But I can't pick out any of them, they aren't showing themselves.

And I'm not going to join in this Durelin-lynching-mob.

++Mac

Sorry Mac (if I'm wrong - I'm not sorry at all if I'm right). :(

Edit: same, got caught previewing before posting.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

plus fea supportet me on my day 1 vote, I would be a "skarn" (danish word) not to support her today.

[Brinniel]

I have no really good explanation for voting Durlein other than she seem slightly off. . .and that I really want to keep fea in the game.
But Fea only has one vote...and that was after you voted. I don't think she needed saving.

EDIT: X-ed with the mod. Btw, do the late votes count?

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry I didn't get back. Hyperactive (and now very upset) baby, so I was pretty busy.

And Durie as the lynch? What the heck?


More from me toMorrow. Hopefully. ;)



x'd with the moddess most likely

[Mirandir]

*is not boring*

I believe you've proved that on more than one occasion, my dear. :D

[Beregond]

Ahhhhhh! Did me and Nog miss the deadline?

Not that it matters, I guess, since we canceled each others votes. I didn't realize it was so strict (or 1am so close). I guess you need to have the house clocks syncronized. :(

[Nogrod]

Ahhhhhh! Did me and Nog miss the deadline?

Not that it matters, I guess, since we canceled each others votes. I didn't realize it was so strict (or 1am so close).Shhht!

We should be quiet now for the next 24 hours...

[Kitanna]

The day was full of heated debate. As the sun set and the villager cast their votes a few narrowly made the deadline. The verdict was in and it looked as though Durelin was going to be sent to the gallows.

“Hooded and cloaked, obviously this be a wraith!” Someone screamed. “Never seen someone so suspicious in all my days.”

“Being a mysterious figure is not an admission of my guilt!” Durelin cried out.

It was a shame really, the mysterious figure who sat in dark corners all around town had really never done anything to anyone. But that was neither here nor there. Durelin was pegged as a wraith and and no amount of pleading was going to change anyone's mind. Those who had also fallen under heavy suspicion breathed a collective sigh of relief. Especially Mac who narrowly missed the noose for the second day in a row.

Durelin was marched along to the gallows. It had been sometime since Bree had used them and for years the hangman had made a pleasant living as a traveling juggler. But he found himself back in the same old place faced with the sour face of Durelin, the hooded and cloaked figure.

The noose was slipped on and Durelin was asked to present any last words. Thinking for a moment she opened her mouth to speak, “You all suck.” The trap door was opened and she fell through. Her neck broke instantly and so the suffering was not prolonged.

But like the day before nothing happened. Durelin was innocent of any crime.

Living
satansaloser2005
Feanor of the Peredhil
Lariren Shadow
Mirandir
Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Rikae
Aganzir
Gollum the Great
Nogrod
Beregond
Nerwen
Rune Son of Bjarne
Macalaure
Meneltarmacil
A Little Green
Brinniel

Dead
Kitanna – Made an example of Night 1 (moddess)
Gollum the Great – Eaten by hogs Day 1 (innocent)
Shastanis Althreduin – Forced to swallow a sword Night 2 (innocent)
Durelin – Hanged on Day 2 (innocent)

[Kitanna]

Nogrod went home after the unfortunate events. Another day had gone by and they weren't any closer. It was a most disappointing day. But the hobbit was glad to be home. He'd get out his best of Old Toby, have a nice smoke, and head off to bed. Unfortunately others had different plans for Nogrod.

Sometime between Durelin's death and his walk home someone had ransacked his house. Tables and chairs overturned and his best of Old Toby was gone. That was the worst of it all. Well that and the fact he was about to die rather painfully.

~*~*~

As day dawned the villagers went to Nogrod's to collect the tardy hobbit. “It's not like him to be so late.” Rune commented.

“Well, I for one don't like having to go and get him. There's more important things to do than drag that old lazy bones out.” Sally grumbled. The two grumblers would feel awful when they did get to Nogrod's.

They found him in a most disagreeable position. It was hard to say exactly what had killed him. Maybe it was the blood loss from the sword wounds. Or perhaps the fact he had been disemboweled, which was a direct effect of the sword wounds. Or maybe, just maybe it was the fact he had been strangled by his own intestines.

The wraiths had mimicked Durelin's trip to the gallows fairly well. Only they chose to substitute a broken neck with missing organs, and the hangman's noose with the smaller intestine. Any one of those could have easily led to his death. Some admired the work. For how the messy the whole was, not a drop of blood or guts had ended up on the furniture.

Admiration or no, the wraiths had robbed the village of another innocent villager.

Living
satansaloser2005
Feanor of the Peredhil
Lariren Shadow
Mirandir
Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Rikae
Aganzir
Beregond
Nerwen
Rune Son of Bjarne
Macalaure
Meneltarmacil
A Little Green
Brinniel

Dead
Kitanna – Made an example of Night 1 (moddess)
Gollum the Great – Eaten by hogs Day 1 (innocent)
Shastanis Althreduin – Forced to swallow a sword Night 2 (innocent)
Durelin – Hanged on Day 2 (innocent)
Nogrod – Disemboweled and hanged by own intestines Night 3 (innocent)

[Rikae]

Well, well, well.

YesterDay at deadline, I thought only one of two things could be happening: either I'd found myself (again) in a village consisting mostly of cobblers, or a lot of people were once again IM'ing while werewolfing, doubtless with alcohol involved. On second thought, though, I suppose it's just a matter of one wine-drinking, sleep deprived Noggins, one Mac who didn't wish to die, one cobbler ready to get herself lynched, and a couple of newbies without enough experience to recognize the insanity of it all (except Berry).

Odd they killed old Nog when they probably could have had him lynched. Oh well, at least we know who the cobbler is now. Normally I would suggest trying to lynch a wraith instead at this point, but she obviously has the ability to wreak havoc, especially with so many (no offense) newbies in the village.

Erm... I'm sure Ms. Fearny has an excuse and a great explanation ready for why she is trustworthy. I have an idea of what that might be. I don't buy it.

*goes to bed*

[Beregond]

Well, yesterDay's ending was fast and furious. I'm sorry, Kitanna, for the late vote. Didn't realize the cutoff was so definite.

But, wow, what happened? Talk about a mob... in addition to poor Nog: Mac, Mirandir, Rune, Lari, and Fea, in reverse order, voted for the sad lynching. Some may have had a good reason, some must have been on the bandwagon, as they say, and all of them are downright suspicious now, though clearly not all guilty.

I'm not saying I thought Dury was innocent for sure, but I didn't think there was much against her, either. Some IC comments. Alas, since Nog was the perpetrator of the Durelin-suspicion, my opinion has changed rather since his death - I don't know what to think. But Nog was the last to vote for Dury, not the first.

The innocents are dwindling. At least our odds of finding a wraith are improving. Must be hopeful heading into Day Three!

Unfortunately for me, on a Monday, I really cannot let myself spend so much time on WW as I have the previous Days. I hope to have a good part of the evening, but not so much of the day. And right now, in the very early morning, with sleep clouding brain, I'm going right away. I'm too tired to think and didn't expect the morning revelation before I went to bed at all.

[Brinniel]

Nogrod is a strange choice. He didn't make any indications hinting towards seerism that I can find, and after the Durelin fiasco he could've easily been made a lynch target. The best conclusion I can come up with is perhaps the wraiths thought he might be Frodo and didn't want to risk losing their Ringbearer through a lynching.

The Durelin lynching came out of nowhere and needs to be closely looked at. I feel convinced Fea is evil in some form, whether it be a wraith or informer. Her behaviour simply does not look like that of an innocent. There's chance another baddie was involved with the Durelin lynch which is why I want to look at her voters later. One thing I wonder is why were people so concerned over the possibility of a last-minute Fea lynch, yet they thought it was such a better idea to go after Dury in the final moments? Also, what was so suspicious about her IC-posts?

Of course we can't ignore the early voters (or the non-voters) either, as I'm sure there's at least one wraith among them. Really what I need to do is take a closer look at everyone, as I'm sure someone is slipping under my radar. But that'll have to wait until tomorrow as it is extremely late and I must sleep.

[Thinlómien]

Hello, I'm here, and I'm just as baffled as you are. I'm going to reread yesterDay's lynch and Nogrod's posts, because my head is currently totally empty of ideas... You'll see me posting soon again.

PS. I should be able to be around quite a lot today, except that I can't definitely stay up as late as I did yesterDay...

[Nerwen]

This may seem self-righteous coming from someone who didn't even vote yesterDay– but seriously, what was all that about?:confused:

[Thinlómien]

Nogrod's posts

Definitely unseerish on Day1. He's suspicious of Agan pretty consistently, but it does not look too seerish. I don't think the wraiths would have thought him to be the seer after day1, unless Agan is a wraith and they thought Nogrod is trying very carefully trying to hide his role.

Oh, crap it all. I know. I bet the wolves were thinking something like: "Why is Nogrod making such an issue about Dury's ranger impersonation? Maybe because... he's the real ranger!" I think that'd make a lot of sense. More sense than any other explanation I'm coming up with at the moment. (His posts are not seerish, he would not actually make a good no-trace kill etc.)

YesterDay's lynch

Fea's sudden vote for Durelin later yesterDay is definitely fishy.

Lari follows it just as fishily. (Any chances you're secretly Pisces by the horoscope, ladies? :Merisu: )

Mira votes Dury, cross-posting with Fea and Lari.
Somehow it looks less fishy than Fea's vote, although there's no rational reason why it should. Maybe just because she's a newbie.

Rune voted Dury before Mira. His vote looks simply fatalist.

Brinn is the official protestor - or a wolf who can know how to make herself look good.

Mac is just making sure he won't be the one to die.

Nog and Beregond were late, and Mr Dwarf-city is dead by now and Rego's vote, I think, looks very innocent.


edit: xed with Nerwing

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, hello people, I am back. And I have not yet had the chance to read the thread as for what had happened yesterDay, but okay, I will try to do it... hopefully it won't take as long. So, more like so that you know I am here... as I might not show up for several hours again yet, depending on how fast I read ;)

[Nerwen]

On second thought, though, I suppose it's just a matter of one wine-drinking, sleep deprived Noggins, one Mac who didn't wish to die, one cobbler ready to get herself lynched, and a couple of newbies without enough experience to recognize the insanity of it all (except Berry).

Odd they killed old Nog when they probably could have had him lynched. Oh well, at least we know who the cobbler is now. Normally I would suggest trying to lynch a wraith instead at this point, but she obviously has the ability to wreak havoc, especially with so many (no offense) newbies in the village.

Erm... I'm sure Ms. Fearny has an excuse and a great explanation ready for why she is trustworthy. I have an idea of what that might be. I don't buy it.

I agree Fea seems very unlikely to have the village's best interests at heart. How can you be sure she's the cobbler rather than a wraith, though? I'd guess it took more than one baddie to make that lynch happen.

Nogrod's posts

Definitely unseerish on Day1. He's suspicious of Agan pretty consistently, but it does not look too seerish. I don't think the wraiths would have thought him to be the seer after day1, unless Agan is a wraith and they thought Nogrod is trying very carefully trying to hide his role.

Oh, crap it all. I know. I bet the wolves were thinking something like: "Why is Nogrod making such an issue about Dury's ranger impersonation? Maybe because... he's the real ranger!"

I think you may have something there, Lommy; certainly it seems more likely than Brinn's idea that they thought he was Frodo. (What could 'looking Frodo-ish' possibly consist of, anyway?)

I'm going to take my own look at the Durelin-voters. Back soon.
EDIT: X'd with Legate.

[Thinlómien]

I'm becoming a little uneasy about sally. I just think she might bear more watching than we've given her lately.

To sort of balance that, I'm becoming a bit more positive of Mac's innocence, but knowing how it's with me and him in ww, I will probably become convimced he's guilty before the end of the Day. :rolleyes:

Fea puzzles me. Her post complaining about the fake gifteds looks very innocent, but many other posts of hers look rather sinister.

I don't quite like Lari's manner... she seems sneaky and somewhat nervous, if I may say so.

I am kind of like Beregond, I like potatos betterTaking part in a joke discussion several hours later and without even having anything witty to say? If these carrot-potato things are supposed to be taken as hints, I'd be eyeing Rune very carefully...

This is a Tolkien site, not a dating site!Are you serious? :confused::Merisu:

[Thinlómien]

I think you may have something there, Lommy; certainly it seems more likely than Brinn's idea that they thought he was Frodo. (What could 'looking Frodo-ish' possibly consist of, anyway?)Actually, now that you mention it, I must say that suggestion of Brinn's was a bit weird. It does not make much sense - I wonder if the explanation is that Brinn was too tired when she was posting or that she's a baddie trying to mislead us?

[Rikae]

I agree Fea seems very unlikely to have the village's best interests at heart. How can you be sure she's the cobbler rather than a wraith, though? I'd guess it took more than one baddie to make that lynch happen.

A wraith would be unlikely to behave like that, I think, because xe would be setting xemself up to be lynched the next day. It's too obvious.

Then again, a wraith Fea could consider herself seer-dreamt anyway and therefore behave suicidally.

If there's another baddie in the Dury voters, I would guess it was Lari, but I don't think there necessarily is. It seems possible Lari and Mira were misled.
Rune, I suppose, could also be evil, but, though I haven't played with him in quite a while. I seem to recall odd, erratic behavior being pretty normal for him. (I actually forgot he was part of it above, though).

I don't want us to let Fea slip through the cracks, though. Like I said, she basically handed herself in. There is no way she actually thought Nog's case against Dury had any merit, and no way such a deception, at that time, could benefit the village. Unless we have someone else pop up and literally go "hey, I'm a wraith, lynch me", she's our best bet.

I have another suspect at the moment who is climbing higher on my radar, but I think I'll refrain from making my case against xem for now & see if xe further incriminates xemself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right. This goes slower than I anticipated. For now, I will post some comments on what happened since I posted the last on Day 1. I have not read yet the rest, so it is possible I say something which is already "outdated" (had been discussed since then) and possible I will change my opinions on something later. However, still better that I post something now than only later.

MY THOUGHTS IN THIS POST, SUMMED UP (i.e. whoever does not want to read through all this, may as well read just this and get the main points):

Menel looks like his normal self, whatever that is, but he may be innocent. He likely IS innocent, actually.
I don't see anything so suspicious about Brinn.
Fea looks to me like a Cobbler;
and Mac still like a possible Wraith.
Sally cannot be well defined.
Rikae looks innocent to me.
Rune is a bit sleeping under my reindeer, but whatever. He may be innocent: most of his posts are innocent-like, however they are of the "detached" sort - they often have little to do with game itself, but are turning around people's RL actions, which I think is nothing that concerns the topic of who is the Wolf.
Nerwen looks sometimes innocent, but may be a well-calculating Wolf. (Something a bit like what Aganzir often is.)
It is hard about Mira, there is a possibility of a newbie wolf, but not really anything too suspicious here in truth.

***
Now starts the "boring" part. ( ;) ) Some various replies and things I replied to as I went through the thread, some more important, some less, whatever:

Rikae, 152:

For what it's worth, I, at least, play the role given to me, idealistic though that may be. Regardless of what side he's on, Frodo is not a werebear, out for himself. Ordos work for the village's benefit, so as long as he is one, that's the side he has to play, even if it makes things more difficult later. Don't you think I might love to assign myself the role of unofficial cobbler (in all the games I've played, I've never once been a cobbler)? Only the moddess can tell us for sure, but it seems to me like Frodo turning "cobbler" before he's been turned into a wraith isn't really playing fair.

That is very true, and that's what I thought as well. However...

Of course, Frodo may have good reasons to keep quiet for the time being - but if he's going to play his ordo role to the best of his ability, he might want to think about playing in such a way as to trap his possible future wraith self (who knows, maybe he's smart enough to outfox himself, and the rest of us, in the end, anyway).

However, this still does not make sense to me the way you keep repeating it. Frodo most certainly should stay low, as long as possible, try to be helpful for the village, yes, but revealing plainly on Day 1 is a nonsense - cf. what Brinn said:

#149
Okay, I find anyone who thinks that Frodo would even consider sacrificing himself at this early stage a bit idealistic. Whoever is Frodo signed up for this game because they want to play...it'd certainly be no fun to give up and reveal from Day 1. I'd think our Frodo would want to have more fun with the role than that. Also, once Frodo is changed, he is on the side of the wraiths. A lynching after he has changed could mean a loss for the wraiths. And why would anyone want to lose?

I said the same thing already and I am repeating it here. Just coming, revealing oneself for the good of the village and dying, okay, great, but poor the player. That was some role.

And Fea just does not help me at all. I still suspect her. Her list posted without any explanations for those she finds suspicious, and her explanations at those she does not want to vote are not much better either... those for Rikae and Mac, I mean.

Rikae (she's trying too persistently to draw attention to herself; I shan't give it )
Mac (he's interesting to have around later)


Beregond #157
As a newbie I'm trying not to make the easy vote, but... I have to rely, to some extent, on the opinions of others, as I don't want to lynch one of the good guys in an effort to be different. So I'm going to wait a while yet before I make my vote.

Hmm. I actually wonder if Beregond is not trying to hide behind his newbieshness now. But whatever...


Mac #162

Fea - to much fun to have around to vote without reason

That is nice, and perfectly understandable if you want to have somebody around because they are fun to play with. But in the light of what I think about Fea (cobbler), it is not as fun, and mainly, what Mac says is a very easy excuse for not voting Fea. "To vote without reason" - so you can say all the time from now, that you do not have yet the reason to vote her, and therefore keep her around. Of course. A Wraith would like to keep Ferny around, and if possible, without overtly defending him - so this way is the best way one could do that.

I like Nerwen (post 167), though it is true she may be a calculative wolf, trying to appear like a good and innocent person in the eyes of the others. Which I could expect from her - if she is one.

I like Brinn's comments on Frodo (168), although it is just more of a "fair play" style and it has little to do with the in-game thing itself, so it looks more like a question of opinion (on how one should handle the Frodo role, that is). But anyway...

Okay, Rune (170) acts kind of weird against Brinn, I think, these RL reasons... though I don't believe a Wolf would use such "unfair" tactics to make Brinn being suspected... so it looks to me that Rune would be likely innocent. It is explainable that he wants to stab Brinn with a rusty knife after her last WW performance.

Menel looks innocent.

What does not help Fea in my eyes is her vote on Day 1 (178):

Following Rune for Brinn- I'm terrified of this girl no matter what team she's on. I won't have her slip past me in this game. Sorry, hun.

This is so obvious jumping on a bandwagon that one can hardly think otherwise of Fea than "Ferny!".

And however reasonably questioned by Mac, there is some truth in Menel's comment on Mac's list of people (179):

Macalaure may be stumbling over the fact that he's a wraith and can't twist the villagers' words into anything suspicious, as his last list gives mostly "innocent" and "no clue".

Excuse me? I can see how people could regard me as suspicious at this point, but that reasoning is ridiculous...

Sally looks... weird, mainly her list of people she suspected on Day 1 is strangely mixed of people who seem fishy (Mac, Agan, possibly Brinn - in the sense that she is suspected enough for it to be understandable to put her on the list) and people who are relatively normal (Rikae or Nog).

Nerwen #184 looks more unnerving - it looks like listing the people everybody wants to lynch, sometimes for quite easy reasons (Gollum), so really giving herself a relatively wide choice (it won't be even a problem to incorporate some wolf into the lot, still she could choose some of the others).
I'm thinking of voting:

Mac –because his stuff about Ferny's role looks unpleasantly like either a hint from Ferny to the Wraiths or one from the Wraiths to Ferny. This is what I thought myself while reading the post, before I saw other people's comments.

Gollum for random voting and way to much empty banter.

Aganzir for random voting and going on about Frodo.

Brinn for defensiveness and for that post where she seems (following Rikae's comment at #180) to be giving instructions to a would-be wraith Frodo.

What is worrying me, though, is that any of these four could be called an easy lynch.. and nobody seems to be trying to save any of them.

I might also add Rikae for acting like a cobbler at times, therefore possibly Ferny– however, she's made that point on Brinn which is quite good, and certainly better than the actual reasons people have voted her.

If I understood it right, most of the suspicions against Brinn (from everybody) stem basically from the fact that she was such a succesful wolf in the last game. Nerwen looks just like feeding Rune's (perhaps genuine) worry about this. Also, Nerwen does not forget to add this "but oh poor them, nobody defends them". Pretty well imaginable as a wolfy thing to do, to appear as a concerned innocent.

Me not like this.

So far no one is sticking out as obviously needing to be killed toDay. There's not enough evidence due to lack of posting by some parties and others I just don't know what to make of. However, Lommy's flipflopping has been bothering me for the past few pages and thus has my vote.

Mira's reason for voting Lommy is also of the "simple" sort. I think he (is it he?) has not played much (or is it his[?] first game?) yet, and saying "Lommy flipflopping" sounds like something he(?) could have heard, as that is happening, and it could be well a good reason to backup the vote with, for a newbie WW. However, funny thing - his vote is almost identical with that of Shasta who, as we know, is dead.

Rikae looks overall innocent to me, despite I can see there may be things looking suspicious on her, I don't think they are anything more than her own opinion. Rikae looks innocent to me.

Sally - 193: I don't like that either:

Brinn: Could be. Very well could be. But her suspiciousness (if that's even a word) could just be stress since she says she's been having a rough day or two. Perhaps we should give her the benefit for toDay? We'll see.

Anybody cares to tell me what is so suspicious about Brinn, except the fact that she's been a succesful wolf in some of the past games?

But on the other hand, Sally seems like just Sally at times, so hard to say. Her reason for voting him rather than Brinn or Lommy is not necessary a suspicious thing, quite the opposite - and especially if it turns out Mac is a Wolf.

Mac:

I guess Legate was right about starting a bandwaggon. I don't see his vote suspicious at all, but the reasons of Menel (Mac doesn't have any suspects), Beregond (simply quoting what everybody has been calling suspicious all day), and Sally (he's off) are just bad.

Possibly, but I don't see the people's votes - Menel and Beregond, and not even Sally, for that matter, at least - being that bad.

Well, as for the Gollum lynch at the end of the Day 1: Mac has a logical reason to wish to lynch Gollum (be he a Wolf or not), as for others, on first sight, of course it was wrong (as it showed later), but explainable. So, nothing much special in there for me on first sight.

[Thinlómien]

Rikae, I agree. Fea looks rather fernyish, but not like a wraith. (Although, I have to add that an ordo Fea has been known to act really weirdly. Maybe she'll show up and explain.) But whatever, unless she looks more innocent toDay, lynching her might be a good back up plan. (But I'm worried of it becoming the official back up plan everybody can bring up and avoid naming any actual wraith suspects. :()

edit: xed with Legate's novel :eek: :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

edit: xed with Legate's novel :eek: :p

Yes, well, what do you expect. Anyway, don't expect from me to reply on anything, if anybody asks me anything, for the few following hours. You will have to wait. I will leave for a few hours now, I'll see if I can post commenting on at least some events from yesterDay before I leave, but then I will be back and finish it. Should not take THAT long... so, in some four or five hours, you should get me here "up-to-date" and ready to post in the currently running discussion :)

[Thinlómien]

Sally - 193: I don't like that either:
Brinn: Could be. Very well could be. But her suspiciousness (if that's even a word) could just be stress since she says she's been having a rough day or two. Perhaps we should give her the benefit for toDay? We'll see.
Anybody cares to tell me what is so suspicious about Brinn, except the fact that she's been a succesful wolf in some of the past games?Actually, my problem with that quote is not that she suspects Brinn on silly grounds, but that it looks very much like something someone could say about a fellow wolf. It screams that to me, in fact. (But of course, my reading might be a bit biased since I suspect Brinn and don't find sally too innocent either.... getting caught up in conspiracy theories again? *remembers Nog's hobbit game*)

PS. Mirandir is a she. :)


edit: xed with Legate - well, you're right, I didn't expect anything else. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, now I have to leave for a few hours, and I really didn't get very far (somebody's been posting horribly long posts yesterDay... how can people do such things? ;) ). Anyway, just for now:

Shasta's death: My opinion on why he was killed is indeed most likely no trails left. He really didn't post anything of substance. I don't think much Seerishness-supecting was involved, although it is possible.

Try what? How did I seem to suggest xe should stay put & and then change my mind? I don't think I ever reached any conclusion when talking about the RB. Hmm oh yes I actually did. But I simply don't get what you're aiming at.

I meant to say, in other words (if we presumed you were a Wolf): Perhaps you were doing that (supporting the idea that Frodo could reveal) in order for him to reveal himself, or give hints, so that you may target him. That was the basic idea of it. Then, when others were suggesting Frodo not to do that, you have backed away a bit, so as not to be too suspicious if it became the general opinion that Frodo trying to give hints may be dangerous for the village. (All of this is now relativised anyway by what you said later, or what others said later about Frodo too, and your opinion on Frodo wishing to become a Wolf in the first place.)

Okay, but now I have to leave. Will be back and continue on my comments. (In other words, expect some long post from me again. Or perhaps, I may try to divide it into a few shorter ones... but that will depend. We'll see. Or you can tell your opinion on that meanwhile, if you prefer one long or several... long as well, but not as long as it would be if it was just one ;)

[Aganzir]

Hello I just came home, have a horrible headache & need to leave in a few hours because of going to theatre with my Swedish group (ewrgh). I also have two papers to write for tomorrow which means I'm not going to be too loud today.

Off to read yesterday's posts.

This may be a stupid question, but were you talking about Lommy or Greenie here? I want to say the latter, but I'm not actually sure..
Lommy. Greenie was you and Lommy was she.

1..2..3.. ... ..9..10.
*breaths deep*
I still think her style is a curious mixture of her relaxed, bantery and nit-picky ordo-style and her careful, detached wolf-style - exactly what I'd expect from her after a long pause from being a wolf.
My playing style changes. Depending on my mood. Depending on how tired, busy, whatever, I am in real life. I am annoyed that you give the impression, accidentally or not, it doesn't matter, that's how you come across, of being able to read me perfectly just because we know each other in RL. I am annoyed of you comparing me to previous games and telling what I would do as a wolf or ordo or gifted or whatever.
And I admit I probably wouldn't be so annoyed if it was someone else but you.

Also, she tends to get annoyed at me but she feels jumpier than normally.
What's normally? Last time we played you said exactly the same. And the time before... And...

And if you want me to, I can admit this vote is also partly because I currently feel we two just can't play ww together, at least not this way.
Me too. Maybe it was better if we simply concentrated on other people instead of each other as long as possible. I can't remember when we last did not have a quarrel.

And I'm not going to go through your posts, at least for now. I don't find it necessary. Because I simply can't believe you would go after me with such reasons if you were a wolf.

Okay onto other things.

She's no gifted because that's a bit too daring for a gifted to do.
Well I disagree. If the main goal for a gifted is to survive, then it might be daring. But if a gifted wants to have some fun, see if xe is caught, then it'd be alright. I would find that a funny thing to do as a gifted.

I don't know why but Mira has started to bother me a little. I might want to read through her posts when I have time.
And now I read Lari's summary and it's the same with her.
I am also getting a bad feeling about Rune. He annoys me & doesn't make sense. Okay, it might be because he was drunk yesterday but still.

To be honest I have no idea why you ended up lynching Durelin. Mira's vote (or the reasoning for it) seems the most suspicious to me but I need to read her posts before forming a proper opinion.

the wraiths thought he might be Frodo and didn't want to risk losing their Ringbearer through a lynching.
Rather they wouldn't have wanted him to reveal and be either a known innocent or a missed kill at night & sure lynch the following day, had he been the RB. However what makes you think they thought he was Frodo? Personally I didn't see anything that would have indicated it, apart from him commenting on a post by only saying Precious! on day one.

I think Lommy's idea of the wraiths thinking Nog was the real ranger is a good one.

[Aganzir]

Perhaps you were doing that (supporting the idea that Frodo could reveal) in order for him to reveal himself, or give hints, so that you may target him.
But I never supported xyr revealing! Well yes it would make things easier but it would also be an unfair thing to ask.
Besides what would a wolf gain from Frodo revealing? A lot headache.

Then, when others were suggesting Frodo not to do that, you have backed away a bit, so as not to be too suspicious if it became the general opinion that Frodo trying to give hints may be dangerous for the village.

How would disagreeing be suspicious?

Sorry I'm not trying to be difficult, I just have no idea what you're talking about.

[Nerwen]

I spent too long on this, and I'm not sure it's all that useful. But here it is anyway:

Note: only relevant sections are quoted/cited.

Part One: La-la-la-I'm-Not-Listening

#324.Nogrod makes a case on Durelin based on her Ranger-like IC posting at start of Day One.

#325.
6) It was an IC post. And, lo and behold, Durelin's character is:
"Durelin - Big person dark, mysterious, hooded and cloaked figure".

A joke, no more significant than in that long-ago game when someone chose "weaver" as his occupation. That's how I took it, that's how I'm pretty sure everybody took it (including the wraiths), and that's how I suspect Dury expected it to be taken.

#329, #332, #347. Greenie, Lommy and Mac all point out that Nogrod's case doesn't make sense.

#348. Nogrod continues to find Durelin evil; has missed the point about her posting IC.

#363. Durelin posts IC.

#366.Durelin lists people who “bother" her (Brinn, me, Rikae, Nogrod and Fea) for various reasons.

#367. Fea complains about Durelin's IC posting.

#368. More IC posting from Durelin. This is perverse of her and probably helped get her killed. Note, however, that she only posted a few sentences.

#371. I'm very tempted to vote Dury as I don't know what she's playing at. I feel like the Ranger wouldn't make a point of making herself wraith-bait.

#372. Mirandir agrees with Fea.

#373. Lari puts forward the theory that Kitanna would have made Durelin's hooded and cloaked character a wraith rather than a ranger.

#374. Nogrod agree with Fea that Dury and Rikae are not behaving like innocents.

#375.Fea, you seem off to me. You go back and forth between a knowing hush-hush to "we should talk about all the roles", and you're nearly as jumpy as Nogrod when it comes to conspiracy theories. Overall you're being rather boring, especially for you.

#377. It's occurred to me that I want to sacrifice a fellow wolf every time I play an evil role. But there never seems to be any support from my colleagues... :rolleyes:

++Durelin

Support my vote if you want.

If Durelin had turned out to be a wolf... er, wraith, I'd have called that the worst slip ever. As it is, I don't know what she meant.

#378.Lari speculates that Durelin could be Evil Frodo, trying to get the wraiths to kill him at Night.

#379.If you think I'm a suicidal baddy (who could have easily "flown under the radar" as many put it), so be it. You all deserved more of my foolishness after being so foolish yourselves, thinking my character-role was anything else. :p

#382.Nogrod says he is a bit reluctant to lynch Durelin, but might still do it. He asks if there are enough people to lynch Fea.

Part Two: The Fea Fan-Club to the Rescue!

And this is where it gets even weirder. Rune, Lari and possibly Mira act as though they have to save Fea from the lynch mob, even though she has no votes, and I think Nog's was the first mention of lynching her.

#384.Stop this nonsense!

Fea is just like an independent candidate, too good to be voted for!

#387.So where did this "lynch Fea" thing come into play? Not that I'm defending her, it just seems to be, well, really spontanious and not right. And I can't spell.

#392. Durelin discusses Day One votes. Doesn't like Brinniel's, Nerwen's, A Little Green's, Sally's, or Fea's.

#393.I love it when we decide to randomly lynch Fea! *throws a party*

#394. Brinn comments that she has been suspecting Fea all day.

#395.(replying to Durelin)
You're talking yesterday, obviously, since tonight my goal was actually to get you killed...

#396. Beregond comments that he "took the ranger comment as nothing but IC".

#397.Rune says he feels like lynching Agan or Durelin.

#398.(replying to Mirandir's comment at #393).
WE might do it for a reason as well...

#400.Did I mention that I really do not want Fea to die. . . . ?

#402.Lari votes Durelin: "I know its IC voting, but part of me thinks that putting her as a wolf would have been genius."

#403.Fea says Durelin should be posting content, not just in character narration.

#405.Rune votes Durelin (no reason given– apparently to save Fea).

#406. Mirandir votes Durelin: "Posting IC 40 minutes before deadline seems like a strange move, and it makes me very suspicious."

#407. Brinn votes Fea.

#409. Mac votes Durelin (no reason given).

#410. I have no really good explanation for voting Durlein other than she seem slightly off. . .and that I really want to keep fea in the game.

#412. Durelin votes Mac.

#413. Brinniel say she does not like "this Durelin bandwagon".

#415. Nogrod votes Durelin.

Comments: Mac's vote is probably self defence, as I think he had two or three votes himself at that point. The reasons for the other votes boil down to: "we must save Fea!" and "Durelin's pretending to be the Ranger! Get her!"

Nogrod (known innocent) started the case on Dury, Fea seized on it, and Lari and Mira followed Fea, and then Rune joined in when the idea of lynching Fea came up.

Early in the piece, everyone was told that Durelin was simply playing a character she had described before the roles were given out. They... well, basically, they just didn't care.:( (Lari's theory involved a plot by Kitanna.)

Durelin did contribute to her downfall a bit by going on with the IC posting... but there were actually only a couple of posts like that, and she made other comments.

Conclusion: Fea is probably evil, and seems to have led the lynch-mob, but is more likely Ferny than a wraith. (Although she might be a wraith pretending to be Ferny, in the hope that the Seer won't dream her, or we won't bother lynching her, or something.)

I still can't tell whether Lari and Mira are acting more like manipulated newbies or like newbie wolves. And I have no idea what Rune was thinking of, except that he did mention he was drunk.

So... yeah. That was weird.

EDIT: fixed quotes.
EDIT2: paraphrased for easier reading. X'd with lots of people.
EDIT3:fixed bolding.

[Lariren Shadow]

All right, I get it, my vote seems fishy(and no, I'm really not a Pisces, no where close).

However, I pretty much voted for the same person two days in a row. And the only reason was I still didn't have much to go on from Day 2. I thought in my mind that it would have been interesting to make the person who's character is like the ranger to be a wolf/wraith. Hence my voting.

As for the rest: are we sure that Nog's death wasn't in some way a way to implicate Fea? Can we really rule out a possible innocent Fea and really good wolves/wraiths? It would be kind of smart of them too. They wouldn't get blamed for killing off a very dangerous innocent, the village would just lynch her and be done with it.

This is not saying that we shouldn't look at her. Clearly that would be stupid but this is a possiblity no one mentioned. Last game she was lynched the same Day and was a wolf. But she was also more open about her wolfyness.

As for Mira, it is her first game. But it's also Day 3 and she is clearly fair game.

As for the comments between Lommy and Agan, while obviously it's between you two and I shouldn't read more into than a possible friend's spat(I mean, I could also say the same things about Mira and Fea, considering I know them in real life too) but there whole thing would be a good cover up if they were both wolves/wraiths. Keep up the pretense that they are not working together and such. I would have to look through their posts again, but its a good way to throw us all off their trail.

[Macalaure]

First I think I should explain my commentless vote yesterDay. At some point yesterDay I was no longer able to think and make cases against who I would prefer to lynch. I just kept on reading along and see what I would have to do to survive. Then, about 15 minutes before the deadline, the posts were coming so quick that I was not able to catch up anymore and barely remembered in the last minute that I still had to vote. I did not suspect Durelin, but I also didn't think that she was gifted, so she was the logical choice.

Now, with a wake mind, what the ?? was that yesterDay?

--The madness seems to have started just after my last real post, when Durelin reappeared and acted weirdly.
--Fea jumps on her for IC posting, which is fair, but what she makes out of that later is unreasonable. #371 does not strike me as something an innocent would have posted. It looks as if she realised that, with all the talk about Durelin that Nogrod initiated, Durelin would make a good bandwaggon, if set up properly.
--Mirandir goes with Fea immediately. Lariren's following list has Durelin as neutral. Nogrod gives some points, Rune a list of unrelated comments.
--Fea votes Durelin.
--Lariren picks up on Nogrod's comments. Brinn talks about her suspicions, crossing with the approaching Durelin-waggon. Nogrod is reluctant to vote Durelin and considers Fea.
--Rune defends her immediately - and fiercely, considering that only one person mentions the idea. Menel doesn't know what's going on and Rikae rants a little bit. Lariren defends Fea right away, too. The way #387 is phrased is suspicious ("not that I'm defending her"). After some points of Durelin, Mirandir jokes about lynching Fea randomly, which of course is a defense in disguise. Brinn states that she was suspicious of Fea before already. Beregond makes a long list a few minutes before deadline (make those earlier: nobody will be able to read them at this point).
--Rune states he'd like to lynch Aganzir or Durelin. Nogrod restates that he'd have reasons to lynch Fea and Rune defends her again.
--Lariren votes Durelin, and this vote really looks like either an ordo that lets herself be way to much influenced by a recently started bandwaggon, or a baddie following another baddies lead.
--Nogrod is confused and Rune votes Durelin, as does Mirandir. Rune's vote is commentless, but goes in line with previous comments. Mirandir's vote looks like Lari's.
--Brinn votes Fea and complains. I vote Durelin.
--Rune chips in a comment about Durelin, his only on why she is suspicious to him, and it looks as bad as Mirandir's and Lari's.
--Durelin votes me and Brinn complains some more, a bit late, if you ask me.
--Nogrod votes past the deadline and Beregond shows sense.
--Rune adds more nonsense about saving Fea and Brinn criticises him duly.

And half of this happened in 10 minutes.... :rolleyes:

Fea looks a bit like an evil mastermind. She puts the bandwaggon on its rails and does not hesitate about it one second, despite very questionable grounds.
Mirandir and Lari - synchronised werewolfing? They both make a list shortly before things get rolling, and neither suspects Durelin. They both defend Fea, they both change their minds on Durelin, they both make a very similar vote post. It is inconceivable that this was planned, so not both of them are wraiths. A wraith-cobbler combo is possible. Newbieness exonerates Mirandir a little, but Lari gets no such bonus anymore.
Rune's desire to save Fea is out of proportion. Mirandir and Lari are her RL friends, so it's more understandable. I thought that maybe Rune was the seer and dreamt of Fea, but no way would a seer risk himself when his innocent dream is not challenged seriously, which Fea wasn't. Also, if he wanted to save Fea, why go after Durelin? Even if he knew about Fea's innocence, he must've realised that the reasons against Durelin were ridiculous. I remember that he stated something about "experienced players should know better". He is more than experienced enough to know that you lynch the people who act suspicious, not the people who act weird. Stupid lynches like that happen way to often. I suspect that Rune and Fea are companions.
Rikae and especially Brinn take the role of the voice of reason. I believe they are innocent. They could be smart wraiths, but for now, I don't think so.

Alright, and now I have some free memory for other people's comments today, as well as the earlier happenings yesterday, and why in Arda the wraiths chose Nogrod.

[Brinniel]

Actually, now that you mention it, I must say that suggestion of Brinn's was a bit weird. It does not make much sense - I wonder if the explanation is that Brinn was too tired when she was posting or that she's a baddie trying to mislead us?
Well yes, I was tired...after all it was 4am. But I don't think my suggestion was that weird. I agree your ranger suggestion is better though. But what makes you so sure the wraiths didn't think he was Frodo?

However what makes you think they thought he was Frodo? Personally I didn't see anything that would have indicated it, apart from him commenting on a post by only saying Precious! on day one.
I didn't see anything in particular that would indicate it either, but it's possible the wraiths did. For one thing, I'm not sure there's even a specific way on how Frodo would act; I think it would partly depend on whether Frodo would rather be turned or lynched.

EDIT: X-ed with Lari and Mac

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What was I thinking of?

I was thinking that Fea is fun to have in the game and that I did not suspect her, so I wanted to vote for Mac or Agan and later Agan or Durelin. Granted. . .Fea had not recived any votes, but it was a cause that seemed to gain support and resembled what had happened on day 1.
So I decided to cast my vote for Durelin in order to secure Fea's further participation in the game. . .

Obviously the ending was rather hectic and far from desirable, but I play for the fun of the game and to win. . . Obviously I would not have voted for Durelin if I had thought Fea to be evil.

I might have mis-interpritated the situation and overreacted, but that is what happens.

[Lariren Shadow]

I still can't tell whether Lari and Mira are acting more like manipulated newbies or like newbie wolves.

Well, I was a newbie wolf last game(and this is clearly not going to help my case) but I played it differently.

Part of my suspicion was also that she was still in character posting when pretty much everyone else had stopped.

Now if we were to try to lynch Fea toDay, I'd be more for it than anyone else(unless maybe Mac or Rikae because, well, Mac has been sort of saved twice now and some of Rikae's posts are making me wonder).

[Lariren Shadow]

Lariren's following list has Durelin as neutral.

Did I? I didn't really mean for it to be neutral sounding. I pretty much didn't have that many others to go on. Hence my vote.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Erm... I'm sure Ms. Fearny has an excuse and a great explanation ready for why she is trustworthy. I have an idea of what that might be. I don't buy it.

1) I certainly wasn't going to let myself get lynched in a last minute bandwagon-

2) I really didn't want Mac lynched in a last minute bandwagon (though I had no evidence to back that desire up)-

3) It was fifteen minutes before deadline on Day 2 and Dury was still posting in character with no usefull information even hidden in those short posts-

4) After I decided she was a good person to vote for (for being all but invisible, for not making OOC contributions, for doing what looked like trying to lead the village by playing on her [chosen] role, but without supporting anything) she called me boring, and at 1am, it seemed like a great idea to joke about that after succeeding in putting her neck in the noose instead of mine.

I only regret that she wasn't actually evil.

My bad.

Also, what was so suspicious about her IC-posts?

She hadn't made any valuable other ones. When you're not sure who to vote for, who do you look at? The people who are obviously trying to confuse the village.

*apologizes to self for making a statement that appears to apply to me*

Mostly I'm just shocked that

1) anybody voted Dury with me (I was resigned to Mac's death), and
2) that Rune really wanted me to stay alive. Unless he's the seer, which I really hadn't previously suspected. I'm not even sure I suspect it now, for all that he made such a pleasant defense of me.

Any chances you're secretly Pisces by the horoscope, ladies?

No, ma'am. Definitely Leo.

Leos that receive insufficient attention can grow depressed and sullen. Leos also sulk in response to minor slights, particularly blows to their pride, but they tend to recover quickly. Quick to anger and quick to forgive, most Leos wear their hearts on their sleeves. While they might exaggerate, they are not inclined to lie.

They love to be the center of attention.

They have the guts to put themselves forward and don’t mind the whole world looking at them. In fact, they prefer it. They crave a little danger, which makes them natural risk-takers, sometimes excessively so.

Leos are usually quite soft-hearted and have a particular fondness for children and animals.

*loves kittens*

:Merisu:

Maybe just because she's a newbie.

Day 1's over. No more newbie grace period. She's smart. I don't trust her. Nobody else should.

Fea puzzles me. Her post complaining about the fake gifteds looks very innocent, but many other posts of hers look rather sinister.

*likes attention*
*isn't good at being ordo*

Then again, a wraith Fea could consider herself seer-dreamt anyway and therefore behave suicidally.

Very perceptive, since I do always consider myself seer-dreamt, wolf or ordo. It seems like a fair assumption. Just- I'm ordo this time around.

This is so obvious jumping on a bandwagon that one can hardly think otherwise of Fea than "Ferny!".

Or clueless ordo with no better ideas. Honestly? I was going to vote Nog last night for the reason that his name sort of sounds like Giotto.

The people I find suspicious are people I always find suspicious. I don't know any more how to separate my respect for what people have done as bad guys from my belief that they are currently bad guys. The people I don't find suspicious, I simply don't find suspicious.

When you've got no inside knowledge of roles (like Frodo, the Wraiths), you kind of have to wing it. And when you're half convinced that your ability to figure out your own suspicions is shot? Go with somebody who's dangerous no matter what their role is.

*apologizes to self for what seems like another incriminating statement*

I still can't tell whether Lari and Mira are acting more like manipulated newbies or like newbie wolves.

I lean more toward manipulated newbies, for all that I didn't really intend for them to get manipulated. I'm still a bit in shock that a bandwagon happened when I thought I was pretty clearly joking about the "I'm lynching you because you called me boring" thing. I voted Durelin because of the perversity of her continuing to post IC even after the village requested posts where she actually told us what she thought (apart from "Silly village.").

Last game she was lynched the same Day and was a wolf. But she was also more open about her wolfyness.

At risk of incriminating my innocent self even more- Lari, this isn't the best logic: my wolf style changes depending on who my cohorts are. If, for instance, I'm a baddy and I've got a newbie on my team, I'll take the lead and set xer up for a clean sweep once I die (because I nearly always die). If I'm a baddy and I've got a player like the phantom on my team, I'll step back and watch the world burn from the comfort of my desk chair.

So while I'm glad not everybody is automatically assuming I'm evil, be careful about the logic you (universal you) use to get to your conclusions.

I thought that maybe Rune was the seer and dreamt of Fea, but no way would a seer risk himself when his innocent dream is not challenged seriously, which Fea wasn't.

Yes. That's what I'm thinking. So here's my thoughts on Rune: he's an ordo that just really likes having me around.

I can't blame him... I like having me around too.

Going back to bed for a while...

I love Mondays.

[Macalaure]

Nogrod: why?

He would have gotten a fair share of criticism today, maybe even votes. He definitely would have hogged a lot of attention. Wraiths like that. Also, his case against Durelin was bad, so maybe he would have been listened to less toDay. Why him?

He could have believed to be Frodo, but I doubt it. The wraiths would have killed him yesterDay, then.

He could have believed to be the ranger, that is possible, but he would have been a terribly clumsy ranger.

Maybe he said something seerish, which I don't think he has. He's too smart to slip and his suspicions were terribly broad.

Maybe he was uncomfortable to the wraiths. The candidates for this would be Aganzir and me.

Maybe he was killed to set up Fea. That would be a very neat move.

Maybe he was another no-trail kill after all, because he was confused and generic, so best to kill him while he's still off track.

Maybe he was chosen because of the size of his name, combined with either because he was uncomfortable or because he was yet harmless.

Maybe he was killed to give us something to talk about and confuse us. At least that's what I enjoy doing when I'm a wolf.


Unless the wraiths really did think he was gifted, I don't think Aganzir killed him. He was not after her so strongly that she had no other choice but to, and otherwise she probably wouldn't make a kill that would point toward her like this.

Given how easily Fea gets herself lynched, there could be merit to the set-up idea. Killing Nogrod would give the wraiths an easy day. In any case: why would Fea want to kill Nogrod? She cannot be more than Ferny. Would the wraiths set up their cobbler like that, though?

[A Little Green]

I think enough people have complained about yesterDay's voting, I won't do that - but I will have to wonder where that "Save Fea" -thingy came from. From what I gather, Nog asked whether anyone would be in for lynching Fea and that was enough to provoke such strong reactions.

I'm getting worried about Lari. Her change of opinion on Dury is weird. In her list post she says:
Durelin: Besides not really liking the first post(though it was good) other than the feeling that the character that's like a ranger would not be a ranger but made a wolf(if I were picking) don't have anything on her.Then: So where did this "lynch Fea" thing come into play? Not that I'm defending her, it just seems to be, well, really spontanious and not right. And I can't spell.
Then she votes Dury with this:
Ok, so even after a lot of thinking and really not going off of what Rune said, my vote is:

++Durelin

I know its IC voting, but part of me thinks that putting her as a wolf would have been genius.
I find it weird that she should make voting Durelin look like something she made up all by herself and regardless of what was happening, when it looks to me like an effort to save Fea (who was in no grave danger as far as I can see).

What else? I'll be making a list later toDay and all that, but for now Lommy expressed a wish to post so I'll probably let her.

[Lariren Shadow]

So what I was thinking was this: I have nothing much else to go on. Then I refreshed the page a lot. Right before Fea had poster her vote I had pretty much made up my mind to vote for Durelin. I had no other good suspects. Durelin was the best option at the time for me, I don't know why, maybe my mind at almost 1 AM is not the best thing. Ergo I decided to vote for her. Rune then jumped in while I was refreshing the mad posting so it looked like I was listening to him.

Think I’m suspicious all you want, but I also voted Durelin on Day 1 for the same reasons. I don’t know if that makes me stupid or what.

Why would my vote be saving Fea? She had no votes by that point. Only Nog said to lynch Fea.

If anyone’s “save Fea” thing is suspicious it’s Rune's. I just wanted to know where Nog’s comment was from. Rune was the one who stated he wanted her to stay.

If everyone thinks I'm worth a look, go ahead and look.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think enough people have complained about yesterDay's voting, I won't do that - but I will have to wonder where that "Save Fea" -thingy came from. From what I gather, Nog asked whether anyone would be in for lynching Fea and that was enough to provoke such strong reactions.

I'm getting worried about Lari. Her change of opinion on Dury is weird. In her list post she says:
Then:
Then she votes Dury with this:

I find it weird that she should make voting Durelin look like something she made up all by herself and regardless of what was happening, when it looks to me like an effort to save Fea (who was in no grave danger as far as I can see).

What else? I'll be making a list later toDay and all that, but for now Lommy expressed a wish to post so I'll probably let her.

I can setainly see why you raise your brows, but these things are difficult to analyse. Sometimes when you do not have much to go on you change your view quite easily, it does not take much more than a few comments from the right people.

As Mac point out there is a lot of possibilities to why Nogrod was killed, I am a bit sad that he does not conclude anything though. I always get a bit suspicous when people use a lot of energy on a post, but do not conclude anything. It seems wraith-ish.

Anyways I find his thoughts about Fea interesting. . . If she was set up, then who was it that did it?
It is tricky as it Fea normaly gets lynched anyway, it might be a wolves that have not played with Fea before or maybe she did it her self. OK that might be a bit twisted, but she is sertainly capable of doing stuff like that.

Allthough I would love it if it is a set-up, which would give us more stuff to analyze, I am more inclined to think that this was mostly a no-trace kill. Seeing that many people rate Nogrod highly, it is likely that the wraith saw a chance of getting rid of him and to make a no trace kill at the same time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But I never supported xyr revealing! Well yes it would make things easier but it would also be an unfair thing to ask.
Besides what would a wolf gain from Frodo revealing? A lot headache.
Okay, sorry, wrong terminology. What I had in mind, and what we were discussing back on that Day from the beginning, was whether Frodo should be silent or try to give hints about his identity. That was the point, that's what I meant by "revealing" here (really, I used completely wrong word here, sorry for that).

How would disagreeing be suspicious?

Well, like, if all people shared my opinion, i.e. that Frodo should stay put and not give any hints at all, and if everybody agreed on that (and it seemed that many were starting to agree) and they would all think like I do (i.e. if I say it in a bit exaggerating way: that Frodo giving any hints is a suicide for him, resp. "wolficide"), you could seem suspicious if you proposed the other opinion, wouldn't you? So that's basically what I meant (by this thing whose basis I said several Days ago ;) ).

Anyway, I see the mass-posting time is coming, so I'm off to finish reading the thread. Hope to be able to join you people in the "present" in a few hours at most.

[A Little Green]

Maybe he was uncomfortable to the wraiths. The candidates for this would be Aganzir and me.Maybe he was killed to give us something to talk about and confuse us. At least that's what I enjoy doing when I'm a wolf.Dunno, Mac, but looks almost like you're suggesting that you are a wraith yourself...

A list, then, as I think I promised...

Sally - I have no read on her. People keep voicing casual little suspicion on her pretty much all the time, but somehow she still escapes general attention.
Fea - YesterDay's voting certainly didn't put her into a particularly good light. I don't trust her.
Lari - I'm still a bit unsettled by her yesterDay's vote, but her response to me seemed pretty genuine and made me feel better about her. Not sure, still.
Mira - Securely under my reindeer. I'm uneasy about her yesterDay's Dury vote, but that's pretty much all I remember about her. I'll look at her if I have time.
Lommie - Nothing alarming this far.
Legate - Seems okay.
Rikae - I get an overall innocentish feel about her, but I just realised I never quite considered the possibility of her being a wraith. And what on earth was that "I'm Frodo" -business yesterDay?
Agan - Strikes me as innocentish.
Gondie - No idea.
Nerwen - Feels okay.
Rune - I generally get an innocent feel out of his posts, though his vote yesterDay was certainly strange and made me more wary about him. Not convinced either way.
Mac - He's another one that puzzles me. Half the time he seems innocentish, half the time he behaves just oddly and makes strange statements such as his reaction to Rikae's joke reveal. He drives me crazy some day.
Menel - He's been slipping under everybody's radar quite efficiently, I think. Someone to be looked at, to be sure.
Brinniel - I don't get why she is suspected, to me she feels quite okay.


EDIT: x-ed with Leggings

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Brinniel - I don't get why she is suspected, to me she feels quite okay.

That's precisely why I, at least, suspect her: she always feels okay. And then just while she's feeling most okay, she kills you quietly in the Night. My experience is that the people who have played with Brinn a few times have learned that they can't trust their judgment about her at all.

*is awake, eating, reading*

Amuse me, my people!

[A Little Green]

That's precisely why I, at least, suspect her: she always feels okay. And then just while she's feeling most okay, she kills you quietly in the Night. My experience is that the people who have played with Brinn a few times have learned that they can't trust their judgment about her at all.Tell me about that - I have never in my ww career suspected Brinn, and yet last time we played together she was the wolf genius who cheated us all. So I know what you mean - but I don't think just the fact she feels okay is enough grounds for suspicion. It's certainly enough grounds for keeping an eye on her, but not for direct suspicion - and I can't believe the fact that she can be a very sneaky wolf is the only reason why she is suspected.


EDIT: Have to add, Fea - our avvies look fabulous after each other, don't you think?

[Macalaure]

Well, I do still think that you are not entirly innocent because of your trying to save yourself.

Why should an innocent person not want to save himself? Please, explain that to me.

However, I pretty much voted for the same person two days in a row.

And both times with shady reasoning.

As for the rest: are we sure that Nog's death wasn't in some way a way to implicate Fea? Can we really rule out a possible innocent Fea and really good wolves/wraiths? It would be kind of smart of them too. They wouldn't get blamed for killing off a very dangerous innocent, the village would just lynch her and be done with it.

Now if we were to try to lynch Fea toDay, I'd be more for it than anyone else

How do those two statements go together? Making a point that Fea could have been set up, and then stating that you'd like to lynch her more than anybody else?

(unless maybe Mac or Rikae because, well, Mac has been sort of saved twice now and some of Rikae's posts are making me wonder).

Again, why does the fact that I escaped narrowly twice make me more suspicious?

If anyone’s “save Fea” thing is suspicious it’s Rune's.

At least he admitted it. ;)

As Mac point out there is a lot of possibilities to why Nogrod was killed, I am a bit sad that he does not conclude anything though. I always get a bit suspicous when people use a lot of energy on a post, but do not conclude anything. It seems wraith-ish.

Well, my conclusions are my points about Agan and Fea. It's not really possible to say which possibility is the real one yet, but once we have one wraith, we might be able to say more. Guess I should have added that.

Dunno, Mac, but looks almost like you're suggesting that you are a wraith yourself...

I never understood it and still don't: why is it suspicious to make statements of the kind "if I was a wolf"?

Also, I might slip once as a wolf, but not three or four times. Seriously. And if I did, I'd be acting much more nervous by now.

[Thinlómien]

I think Rune's and Fea's "explanations" look rather innocent.

I don't think Rune is very suspicious at any rate, if he and Fea were fellows, would he really defend her so openly? I doubt it. Ok, the possibility remains that he was trying to buddy up innocent Fea or prepared to take her down with him in case he's going to die, but why would he do something so eyebrow-raising to get such a small and unsure gain? It does not make sense and therefore the option that seems reasonable to me is that he's innocent and simply wants to keep Fea around. (Of course, he could be a wraith who just wants to keep Fea around... but I doubt a wraith would be so reckless.) Besides, like I've said before, his aggressiveness on Day1 looks rather innocent. I would not be worried about him.

As for Fea... a tougher nut to crack. But what Mac says about her makes sense. I would be willing to give her the benefit of doubt (for toDay at least). I think what Mac says as for her being a wraith solidifies my view of her as a non-wraith, but I'm not convinced of his reasoning why she's not Ferny. Who says the wraiths know Ferny's identity?

But Lari and Mira, they are not as easily exonerated. I would not be surprised at all if one of them voted Durelin yesterDay just to cast an easy vote, not fully comprehending the situation, or making a vote people could excuse for them by saying they were saving their RL friend. Lari seems more suspicious to me of these since like it has been pointed out, her explanations don't quite hold water...

Okay, now I will write a post commenting other stuff, hopefully discussing something else than the Dury-wagon...

[Rikae]

I had a long post ready to go and the browser froze. :mad:

are we sure that Nog's death wasn't in some way a way to implicate Fea? Can we really rule out a possible innocent Fea and really good wolves/wraiths?

No.

Fea implicated herself. They would have had to be really, really good wraiths to force Fea to start a crazy bandwagon minutes before deadline. That has nothing to do with Nog's death.

Lari's pretty high on my list of suspects now.

As I thought, I don't buy Fea's explanations at all. I find it especially bizarre that she cites fear of being lynched as a reason. No one was talking about lynching her until after she made her strange attack on Dury, and even then, there was really no movement to lynch her. She's latching onto Rune's misguided impression here to try to explain herself, I guess. Won't work.
As for protecting Mac, since when was she so worried about him - worried enough to incriminate herself and those who followed her and lynch Dury with little (rather, no) reason? Besides, she claims she didn't expect anyone to follow her vote, so how was she saving herself or Mac anyway?

Now, I understand voting for a non-participant because you don't want to lynch the big names whose heads are on the block. I've done that myself. Fea, however, actively furthered the impression there was merit in Nog's accusations, and behaved as though starting a bandwagon was her goal. Her actions were blatently cobblerish (or suicidal-wolfish).

It's time I put my money where my mouth is. I'm rarely so sure of someone's guilt, and I don't want to take a chance on lynching another innocent toDay when a baddie has basically turned herself in.
If it were someone other than Fea, I'd say keep her around for now as a "known cobbler" and go after her partners in crime. However, I've seen how Fea can mislead a village, and I don't feel like standing around and witnessing another example of it.

++Fea

And now I'll focus on other people. Talking only about Fea, after all, would waste the Day.

[Lariren Shadow]

Mac: Two options I see: Fea is innocent and set up by the wolves/wraiths to be lynched by us. Possiblity. Second option she is guilty, decided that to throw suspicion away from other wolves/wraiths she should sacrifice herself and be lynched.

Which is more probable with Fea? I still have very little to go on with the posts, I still need to re-read things through, but is it always so bad to suspect Fea of anything?

Will my admitting that my vote was on shaky grounds help? Because it was soley silly suspicions that were nothing more than how I would have tried to cast roles/she kept posting IC while the rest of us had stopped. Does that help now:p?

Now here's a question I have, and not sure if anyone has the answer(or if Kitanna could answer it) but here it is:

Let's say this happened last night: the wolves decided to kill Fea to try to frame more innocents/they wanted to. The Ranger was protecting her that Night, so she couldn't be killed. Did the wolves/wraiths then get another kill? Could they have chosen Nog as a way to still get Fea? Especially if Nog would have been implicated in her death. Because he would certainly been the best canidate for lynching if the deaths were reversed.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea implicated herself. They would have had to be really, really good wraiths to force Fea to start a crazy bandwagon minutes before deadline. That has nothing to do with Nog's death.

No, that's silly. The crazy Durelin thing was totally my doing. I certainly don't blame Nog for it... I wanted to save Mac, and Dury was an easy target based on the persistence of her IC posting (which is another part of Day 1's that always annoys me; I always like Day 2's better because people start actually behaving like themselves instead of hiding behind fictional narratives).

My Durelin thing had nothing to do with the wraiths.

But I do think that Nog's death was an easy way to cast extra suspicion on me after I brought all that attention onto myself.

Besides, she claims she didn't expect anyone to follow her vote, so how was she saving herself or Mac anyway?The fight is often more important than the victory.

Talking only about Fea, after all, would waste the Day.:p That statement was totally calculated. :p

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Let's say this happened last night: the wolves decided to kill Fea to try to frame more innocents/they wanted to. The Ranger was protecting her that Night, so she couldn't be killed. Did the wolves/wraiths then get another kill? Could they have chosen Nog as a way to still get Fea? Especially if Nog would have been implicated in her death. Because he would certainly been the best canidate for lynching if the deaths were reversed.

Unless Kit changed the way it usually works, what happens if the wraiths pick the Ranger-protectee is that there is no death. No do-over.

So Nog died because the wraiths wanted him, the end.

K?

[Thinlómien]

My playing style changes. Depending on my mood. Depending on how tired, busy, whatever, I am in real life. I am annoyed that you give the impression, accidentally or not, it doesn't matter, that's how you come across, of being able to read me perfectly just because we know each other in RL. I am annoyed of you comparing me to previous games and telling what I would do as a wolf or ordo or gifted or whatever.
And I admit I probably wouldn't be so annoyed if it was someone else but you.It's good that you admit it because I haven't seen you reacting that way to anyone else's comments of your playing style... :) And if it helps you, I can once again underline the fact that I don't want people to trust my judgement on you any more than anyone else's.

What's normally? Last time we played you said exactly the same. And the time before... And...:D Touché, you're probably right. Okay, jumpyness excused.


Maybe it was better if we simply concentrated on other people instead of each other as long as possible. I can't remember when we last did not have a quarrel.Well but once we've had the quarrel, we tend to be able to be civil to each other, so I'm not going to ignore you, at least (even if it means another quarrel, I think I will be able to stay calm-ish)...

I find it funny how Mac goes from claiming Fea's guilt to claiming her innocence within a few hours. (But it does make sense, so it makes me amused more than suspicious. ;))

But what makes you so sure the wraiths didn't think he was Frodo?Well, I haven't read his posts very precisely, but at least his talk about the RB role on Day1 looked rather un-Frodoish to me.


edit: xed with everybody since my last

[Kitanna]

Now here's a question I have, and not sure if anyone has the answer(or if Kitanna could answer it) but here it is:

Let's say this happened last night: the wolves decided to kill Fea to try to frame more innocents/they wanted to. The Ranger was protecting her that Night, so she couldn't be killed. Did the wolves/wraiths then get another kill? Could they have chosen Nog as a way to still get Fea? Especially if Nog would have been implicated in her death. Because he would certainly been the best canidate for lynching if the deaths were reversed.

Fea is correct in saying the ranger's power overrides that of the wraiths. If the wraiths attack someone under the ranger's protection there is not a death that Night.

[Thinlómien]

Now that you're here, Kit, would you also like to clarify whether it will be noted in the narration that the ringbearer changed sides, or not?

[Rikae]

(Of course, he could be a wraith who just wants to keep Fea around... but I doubt a wraith would be so reckless.)

Some would. I did exactly that once as a wolf. However, I think you're probably right in thinking Rune most likely wouldn't.

As for Fea... a tougher nut to crack. But what Mac says about her makes sense. I would be willing to give her the benefit of doubt (for toDay at least). I think what Mac says as for her being a wraith solidifies my view of her as a non-wraith, but I'm not convinced of his reasoning why she's not Ferny. Who says the wraiths know Ferny's identity?

What that Mac says? Do you mean this?



Given how easily Fea gets herself lynched, there could be merit to the set-up idea. Killing Nogrod would give the wraiths an easy day. In any case: why would Fea want to kill Nogrod? She cannot be more than Ferny. Would the wraiths set up their cobbler like that, though?


I don't see why Fea wouldn't kill Nogrod. First of all, like I said to Lari, I don't see how it sets her up. Secondly, if Fea is a wraith, she's a wraith who decided her time in the village was limited anyway, so she might as well go out in a blaze of glory, incriminating as many innocents as she could and making her companions look good. She would have expected to be a top lynch candidate toDay anyway, so the way the kill reflected on her wouldn't have been a consideration.
If she's a cobbler, it's much the same situation. Now Mac, Lari and Lommy have all repeated this assumption that Fea is only suspicious because Nog died. Utter nonsense! I, for one, was ready to lynch Fea before deadline fell yesterDay (and would have switched my vote, had I been on my own computer instead of Mac's laptop. I can't type fast on that thing.) Nog's death doesn't even make Fea more suspicious. The most a living Nog would have done is offered a runner-up to Fea in lynchability, and he had a built-in excuse (Lommy's comment about drinking too much wine).

Now you're all making me talk about Fea more. :rolleyes:

[Rikae]

No, that's silly. The crazy Durelin thing was totally my doing. I certainly don't blame Nog for it... I wanted to save Mac, and Dury was an easy target based on the persistence of her IC posting (which is another part of Day 1's that always annoys me; I always like Day 2's better because people start actually behaving like themselves instead of hiding behind fictional narratives).

My Durelin thing had nothing to do with the wraiths.
???
Um, yeah. Of course it didn't. Tell that to Lari, she's the one to whom I was responding.

But I do think that Nog's death was an easy way to cast extra suspicion on me after I brought all that attention onto myself.

And now you repeat it. This Nog's-death-makes-Fea-look-suspicious thing has become quite the little meme, without anyone giving a reason for it. Perhaps you can?

[Rikae]

The next thing I do, I swear, will be to look at Lommy. I've been wanting to all Day, and keep getting sidetracked.

[Brinniel]

(times are in EST)

5:28PM Rikae: ++Greenie (Greenie 1)
8:11PM Aganzir: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 1)
9:43PM Greenie: ++Nogrod (Greenie 1, Mac 1, Nogrod 1)
10:19PM Menel: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1)
10:21PM Lommy: ++Aganzir (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1)
12:35AM Fea: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 1)
12:57AM Lariren: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 2)
12:59AM Rune: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 3)
12:59AM Mirandir: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 4)
1:00AM Brinniel: ++Fea (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 4, Fea 1)
1:00AM Mac: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 2, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 5, Fea 1)
------PAST DEADLINE----------
1:01AM Durelin: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 3, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 5, Fea 1)
1:01AM Nogrod: ++Durelin (Greenie 1, Mac 3, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 6, Fea 1)
1:01AM Beregond: ++Mac (Greenie 1, Mac 4, Nogrod 1, Aganzir 1, Durelin 6, Fea 1)

Did not vote: Legate, Sally, Nerwen

What's scary is that half of the voters voted within three minutes of each other (three of which missed deadline). I admit I am one of those guilty of last-minute voting; the deadline crept on me as it seemed to do for others. But that's not a great excuse, so let's just avoid letting it from happening again. Last minute voting frenzies more often than not turn out badly.

[Thinlómien]

Yes, Rikae, that was the quote I meant. Nogrod's death incriminates Fea because it removes one person who would clearly be suspected because of the Dury-lynch, and now the blame is bound to lay on Fea and Rune, and a bit on Lari and Mira as well although it's easy to make an excuse for those two. Simply, a wolf Fea would consider twice before making a kill that increses the procentual amount of spotlight on her.

Now Mac, Lari and Lommy have all repeated this assumption that Fea is only suspicious because Nog died.I haven't. I think most of the suspicion on her is because of her doings at the time of the yesterday's lynch - at any rate, that's where all my suspicions of her stemmed.


edit: xed with Brinn

[Rikae]

Yes, Rikae, that was the quote I meant. Nogrod's death incriminates Fea because it removes one person who would clearly be suspected because of the Dury-lynch, and now the blame is bound to lay on Fea and Rune, and a bit on Lari and Mira as well although it's easy to make an excuse for those two. Simply, a wolf Fea would consider twice before making a kill that increses the procentual amount of spotlight on her.

No she wouldn't. Not when she was already making suicidal, obviously evil moves like the one she made yesterDay.
Not to mention Nog's death proves that it was possible for an ordo to be that mistaken, casting the whole bandwagon in a better light.

[Aganzir]

Rune's desire to save Fea is out of proportion.
Yes that's true but it might also be because he enjoys playing with Fea so much. However there wasn't much of a threat that she'd be lynched. Also, if Rune was a wraith, would he try to save an evil Fea so obviously?

But what makes you so sure the wraiths didn't think he was Frodo?
What reason would they have had to think so?
This looks a bit like a wolfish Brinn had slipped something from their nightly discussion.

Maybe he was killed to give us something to talk about and confuse us. At least that's what I enjoy doing when I'm a wolf.
And who's the most eager to talk about his death? :p

whether Frodo should be silent or try to give hints about his identity.
Hey I didn't say xe should give hints about xyr identity, I just said xe might do so with plans to get turned into a wraith.
And yes, it might look suspicious if I disagreed with everyone else, but I'd do it if I thought I was right. I had been thinking of Frodo just as a cursed role who wants to become a wolf but then people brought up good points about xem being on our side at least in the beginning.

Greenie's list is creepy because it could have been written by me.

Well but once we've had the quarrel, we tend to be able to be civil to each other, so I'm not going to ignore you, at least (even if it means another quarrel, I think I will be able to stay calm-ish)...
It was a response to your comment that we shouldn't play werewolf together, at least this way. It wasn't intended to include this game in particular.

I think Rikae's comments on Fea make the most sense thus far and garr I don't want to trust Rikae all the time! Anyway it wouldn't be that difficult for an evil Fea to talk herself out of the situation, which means that if she's to be lynched she should be lynched sooner rather than later.

I could go through Mira's posts now. And I should still write those papers, argh.

[Thinlómien]

Angels
Legate - still gives me no reason to suspect himself, seems sharp, honest and open. Actually, the only thing that troubles me about him is that he doesn't trouble me at all...
Mac - my gut-feeling says he's innocent, after all. Besides, he has made some good points in his defense, like for example that if he really was making wolf-slips all the time, he'd be far more nervous by now.
Nerwen - I just don't suspect her.
Rikae - despite the fact that I've disagreed quite a lot with her lately, I think she's innocent.
Rune - all the "proof" I've seen points at his innocence.

Gargoyles (;))
Aganzir - I hate to admit this, but now that I'm less annoyed with her, I'm also less suspicious of her. I'm sure she really bears watching, though.
Beregond - seems sensible, calm and smart, but maybe indeed using the newbie-shield too much? I have to say I'm not too worried, though.
Fea - throughout the game, I've had a gut-feeling that she's not a wolf. And she does have very innocent posts. On the other hand, like discussed very extensively, she's been acting really fishily. But like I've said, it's unlikely she's a wraith - whether she's ordo or Ferny, that can be debated and to that, I have no answer.
Greenie - I don't know, currently I have the feeling I can't read her but she seems ok. (See? My suspicion of her fades with the general one... :rolleyes: )
Menel - I have to admit I let him slip under my radar. Just because he seems innocent enough.
Mira - seemed very innocent on Day1, less so on Day2. I'd like to hear more of her.

Demons
Brinniel - I know it's silly she's stuck here, but I can't help it, it's just a gut feeling that she's up to no good. I have little actual rational reasons to suspect her but I just don't trust her. And no, it's really not just because of last game.
Lari - flip-floppy and not convincing. I'm worried, though, that she might become the "easy victim" for the lynch.
sally - I have a bad feeling about her, I don't like her chipper attitude and aplogising/flip-flopping. She has said some weird stuff, some I have even commented, but I don't remember them well enough to quote them here.

If I have time toDay, I'd love to have a look at either sally or Brinn to see if there are any rational reasons to suspect them. Probably at sally because she's evaded the spotlight far more carefully than Brinn...


edit: xed with Rikae and Agan

[Macalaure]

Second option she is guilty, decided that to throw suspicion away from other wolves/wraiths she should sacrifice herself and be lynched.

In that case, at least one other wraith must have been under pressure yesterDay, because otherwise nothing would speak against attempting to survive as a team. If there's nobody in need of sacrifice, then there's no need to sacrifice, after all.

Who do you have in mind, Lari?

I still have very little to go on with the posts, I still need to re-read things through, but is it always so bad to suspect Fea of anything?

I'm just noticing that you go from defending Fea, saying you have nothing to go on concerning her, and saying you would vote for her quite rapidly.

I wanted to save Mac, and Dury was an easy target

I can't claim to be comfortable with this. Even when trying to save myself I at least try to lynch somebody who at least looks somewhat guilty, and not the first-best hapless victim.

Besides, she claims she didn't expect anyone to follow her vote, so how was she saving herself or Mac anyway?

Good point. I didn't notice that before.


Glad to amuse you, Lommy. I'm sure it will amuse you even more that I'm now more suspicious of her again. ;)

First of all, like I said to Lari, I don't see how it sets her up.

It technically doesn't, but Nogrod's presence would have kept a lot of suspicion from going into her direction.

Secondly, if Fea is a wraith, she's a wraith who decided her time in the village was limited anyway, so she might as well go out in a blaze of glory, incriminating as many innocents as she could and making her companions look good.

Limited, yes, but making it one day longer is always desirable, so why needlessly shorten one's time?
Also, she didn't incriminate anybody, Lari, Mirandir, and Rune incriminated themselves by following her.

The most a living Nog would have done is offered a runner-up to Fea in lynchability

And why would the wraiths lynch somebody they had such a use for? Better to try to get Nogrod lynched toDay and let Fea go down toMorrow.

Not to mention Nog's death proves that it was possible for an ordo to be that mistaken, casting the whole bandwagon in a better light.

Durelin had six votes. I think it's self-evident that one innocent was in there. ;)

[Thinlómien]

No she wouldn't. Not when she was already making suicidal, obviously evil moves like the one she made yesterDay.Voting Durelin out of the blue, you mean?

Not to mention Nog's death proves that it was possible for an ordo to be that mistaken, casting the whole bandwagon in a better light.But no one never assumes a whole bandwagon to be evil. And if such a "better light" kill was to be made, why Nogrod? I think he would have got a bigger share of the spotlight than any of the others...

The most a living Nog would have done is offered a runner-up to Fea in lynchability, and he had a built-in excuse (Lommy's comment about drinking too much wine).I doubt it would have worked... he would not have used it as an excuse himself, and I can tell you he did not drink that much (at least by the time I went to sleep ;)).

Glad to amuse you, Lommy. I'm sure it will amuse you even more that I'm now more suspicious of her again.Well now you baffle me. ;)

[Rikae]

A look at the shady-she-penguin:


Post #41:


Looks very calculated, and caught my eye right off the bat. Summery: Setup looks good for the villagers, that's dangerous because we might be careless, so let's stop the banter and get serious, here, “maybe I'll start about that”: banterers are cobblerish, at least make some “useless and obvious “discussion of setting and roles instead.


So easy,calculated and safe.


#81 (I see Lommy also is a victim of the curse of always starting new pages :D !)


Lots of fluff about typos, horoscopes, “xe”, etc. Iffy suspicions toward Agan (mix of wolfish and innocent self), wishy-washy statement about Fea (“I quite like Fea's tactics...but it does also look like a terribly convenient way of wolfing around”). Niceness to newbies.


Lommy's still playing it very safe. I can't really judge her suspicion toward Agan, since it's based on knowing her really well. I suppose no one can really judge that suspicion, and it's unlikely to attract attention, making it quite a safe one.


Post #88


Calls Agan's question (about what weird stuff she says) “nit-picking dictatorship”. Kind of an odd reaction – has a bit of a wolf-on-wolf feel to it. Claims Ferny is no great threat and we shouldn't worry about him, insinuates Agan is Ferny for suggesting he is. A very sinister paragraph, as I pointed out earlier. Says pointing out Frodo-ish behavior helps the wolves (also misleading). Some defensive looking statements (“this looks suspiciously like a case”). Still, the way she goes after Agan – in two posts, first “weird stuff”, then elaborating, looks somewhat innocentish.


Post 91 – the “this end” phrasing in Mac's post. Honest mistake, I suppose, but could also be an honest-evil-mistake (looking for an easy lynch. She's been very focused on finding wolf-slips in this game).

- several short responses to people, nothing really noteworthy -


Votes for Agan, saying she's probably Bill or Frodo. I, unlike others, don't find this especially suspicious.


Conclusion for Day1: slightly suspicious, but not extremely so.


I'll have to finish this later – I'm holding a hungry baby.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. I have just finished reading Day 2. Two basic things I conclude are written at the end of the post.

Now onto what I have read there in particular:

LG. Post 247: Is it so that there is nobody you actually suspect? Except for Sally, most people are either not alarming, or she has no idea about them.

oh just a quick note about Frodo: Obviously people can play how they wish, but I always got the impression that Frodo was on our side. This should mean that he does not speculate in shifting sides and such, so Frodo should always act in a way that benifits his current team.

Just like Frodo did not consider letting the wraith stap him in weathertop so that he could becoe a wraith and join Sauron, however it was a risk. . .but not a choice.
Rune: Agreed and I could not say it better. (Even though I said that already before, and not just me, but some others as well.) That does not mean revealing rightaway, but some kind of trying to pass unnoticed by the Wraiths.

Rune seems innocent to me (and his post #254 seems good to me).

Aganzir seems more like innocent to me, and it may as well be that she really is, and not just pretends this time - like she often does. Where of course, one can never be certain... but I think she may be really innocent.

Mac makes some sense throughout the Day, but I believe if anyone, he is up to impersonating a sensible innocent while being a Wolf and wishing all the worst.
I see these options:

1. The wraiths were under unexpectedly much Day1-pressure and chose a safe kill. this is unlikely, though, since there are better ways to divert attention.
2. The wraiths were under absolutely no pressure and the village was entirely wrong about each candidate. The trail-less kill was chosen to prolong this state.
3. The wraiths are timid by nature and didn't dare to assault anybody who even might leave a track towards them. (In this case, they might even have thought that Shasta was the seer.)
4. The wraiths are sportsmen who thought it was a good idea to keep those alive that talked more and kill those who talked less.

-While Option 1 is possible, I'd like to discard it for now - mostly because that goes along with my suspicions from yesterday (it would more or less mean that both Lommy and Brinn are wraiths).
-Option 2 only means that Lommy and Brinn (and me, of course) are innocent. The wraiths could be anybody else.
-Option 3 leads us, I think, to Lari, Mirandir, and Beregond, for (relative) newbieness, and to Lommy, Brinn, and maybe Lily, for being of a more timid nature. It exonerates villagers who are both daring and dominant, such as Legate, Rikae, Nogrod, and Nerwen.
-Option 4 points to Legate and Nogrod (not saying that everybody else is not sportsmanlike, but those two are most likely to make a point of it).
Also, it is possible him offering these four options for why Shasta was killed was a way of him presenting some options to the innocents: "And now, choose, come all, come all! Do you want to believe X is a Wolf? Option #1 is just what you need! Or would you rather suspect Y? Come on, I am offering you this brand-new option #2! Go and lynch them!" etc.

The way Beregond reacted to this joke of Rikae's (her saying that she is the seer) - I don't like it. A newbie could ask if it was a joke, yes, why not, but the way he ends up thinking about it seriously... still, he is a newbie.

But what more, Fea was feeding it. She is obviously desperately trying to make the Wolves know she is on their side. Because otherwise, I cannot imagine HER - an experienced player - getting confused by somebody like Beregond (read: a newbie ;) No offense, Beregond) and actually questioning this obvious joke! And I do not even stop to think that Fea could even consider this a serious revelation. Come on.

And Menel actually said a good thing about this:

I'd suggest we keep any speculation regarding the Innkeeper/Seer to ourselves. Discussing Seerish comments openly just draws the wraiths towrd the true Seer, which isn't good. True, it may help to protect said person, but I personally think it wise to conceal the Seer's identity from xyr enemies as long as possible.

Which makes me think - was this an attempt from Fea to draw out the real Seer? Quite possible. Very possible.

And related, one more thing to Beregond:

But like you say it could be a red herring, or just in fun. Still, if that is true it's a strange statement as it doesn't help innocents much, does it?

I don't get this, is "red herring" any saying, or does it have anything to do with me? (You know, my role.) Like, if Berewolf could give hints to Fea Ferny, trying to communicate, like that I was the Seer, or something?

Mac's list in #326 is so "neutral" (in the sense: most people are "innocent" or "no idea about" or such), so that I can imagine it as a list of a Wolf trying to be on good terms with everyone, especially as it seems that he may be suspected by some.
(Which is, as I see, exactly what Rikae said in her post right after that.)

I have to ask, at this moment, why the heck was Mac not lynched yesterDay? At this point (where I am reading now), it looks so obvious! <= Okay, now I wrote this when I was still reading the thread, this is written when I am actually posting the post: I would not call that "so obvious" anymore, but still, he looks Wolfy enough.

And, okay, I haven't read toDay yet, but I can think of one reason (as I am reading through yesterDay) why Nog was killed: because the Wolves thought he is a Ranger. And why? Because they thought he is a Ranger and is annoyed by the fact that (according to him) Durelin was impersonating him. A normal person would not have taken Dury's "ranger impersonation" (in my opinion, and probably also in the Wolves' opinion, as I really don't get what Nog followed by that - that was really an obvious IC post) in any serious manner, but a Ranger could perhaps be more attentive and startled by that? However, it showed that Nog was not a Ranger after all. But I can imagine the scenario working like that.

Because it can be useful to have a good idea who is playing the Ranger role.

Which seems to be what Durelin's getting at.

What I can't figure out about this game is what's with the mysterious 'obvious' reveals so early on? Rikae playing seer, Durelin posting only in Ranger garb (and third person)... What is this about? Is it just a reignited desire for simple playfulness?

Or is there something secret going on with roles? Or like...

I just can't figure out why ordos would set themselves up to be lynched unless they're taking one for the team in effort to set up a bandwagon so the people later on can analyze what happened?

Like... it just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm very tempted to vote Dury as I don't know what she's playing at. I feel like the Ranger wouldn't make a point of making herself wraith-bait.

Geez! And again! Okay, I don't mind when Mirandir asks about debating about the Ranger, he is a newbie. But Fea AGAIN joins in a speculation which started (by a newbie's remark) about a Gifted's role! Gifteds are not to be speculated about! They are too valuable for the village to reveal, for Eru's sake, not unless there is any good reason for them to do that! Fea is not a newbie, she should know that. SHE IS A COBBLER! There can be NO OTHER explanation.

****

My two most important conclusions of Day 2:

1. Fea is an OBVIOUS Cobbler. Informer. Bill Ferny. Whatever you call it.
2. Mac is likely a Wolf. Wraith. Whatever you call it.

These two information, unless they get relativised by what I read today, are two basic things I would like to propose in front of you to consider. I really can't see how anybody can think otherwise (about Fea at least), and how people might have voted Durelin, for mostly quite silly reasons (need to look at that once again, but in general, saving Fea makes little sense - even though of course it is better to lynch a Wraith than an Informer, though - but when she was about to go already... people were actually saving her, that's what was the worst on that).

Now onto toDay and I will be with you in the present.

[Meneltarmacil]

Fea seems to hover between being helpful and being mysterious in my book. Day 1 was a strange one for her, as she said she'd look at Sally but then switched to Brinn, whom she strongly suspected but gave no reason for suspecting.

Her role in starting the Durelin bandwagon is also suspicious. That one came out of nowhere, and led to an innocent dying. I'd be wary of Fea, myself.

[Rikae]

In that case, at least one other wraith must have been under pressure yesterDay, because otherwise nothing would speak against attempting to survive as a team. If there's nobody in need of sacrifice, then there's no need to sacrifice, after all.
I agree - there may well have been pressure on somebody evil. Another thing Fea's death would shed light on, I'd say.

It technically doesn't, but Nogrod's presence would have kept a lot of suspicion from going into her direction.

Probably not. Maybe I'm biased, though, since I thought he was innocent (having been the target of misguided-ordo-Nog cases before myself contributes to that).

Limited, yes, but making it one day longer is always desirable, so why needlessly shorten one's time?
Simply put, I find it a lot easier to believe that Fea thought she may as well play kamikaze-baddie than to believe she made that attack on Dury innocently. All it took was for someone to feel under pressure, see a chance of bringing down a gifted, perhaps, who knows.

Also, she didn't incriminate anybody, Lari, Mirandir, and Rune incriminated themselves by following her.

I think Fea had reason to believe her vote stood a good chance of being followed, with three (I count Lari) newbies and a chivalrous Rune left to vote.

And why would the wraiths lynch somebody they had such a use for? Better to try to get Nogrod lynched toDay and let Fea go down toMorrow.

I mentioned that it was odd myself. However, I don't think for a minute such a use would outweigh, for instance, the suspicion that Nog might be the ranger. A wolf-Fea never expects to make it far, and would tell her buddies to sacrifice her.

Durelin had six votes. I think it's self-evident that one innocent was in there. ;)

I should have said "experienced innocents". At any rate, pretty much everyone but Fea had an excuse.

To tell you the truth, though, I don't think they made the kill because it makes the bandwagon look better. I'm just saying it's possible, in general, to put that kind of spin on it when an innocent who was part of a suspicious bandwagon is killed.

I'm most inclined to believe the baddies thought they might be killing the ranger, and, on the balance, didn't worry about protecting Fea (or rather, left her with only her not inconsiderable arguing powers to defend her) as a likely seer-dream anyway.

Of course, all this only applies to a wraith-Fea. She's more cobblerish anyway, but I wouldn't say she's certainly no wraith.

[Mirandir]

Also, she didn't incriminate anybody, Lari, Mirandir, and Rune incriminated themselves by following her.

Did we miss the part where I cross-posted with Nog, Lari, Fea, Nog again, and Rune? I had no idea what was going on with regards to any possible bandwagon jumping that has been speculated about. Furthermore, I definitely didn't vote Durelin because of Fea's joking revenge vote for Dury. Yes, we are friends in real life. Yes, I am a newbie. However, neither of those mean that I won't throw her under the bus if need be. Same with Lari.

I realize that sounds a little harsh. I apologize. I'm not in the best of moods at the moment and don't have much time for WW today. I will be back at least a few hours before deadline with something actually worth contributing (*fingers crossed*).

[Rikae]

Legate, whew, thank goodness somebody sees through Fea. I thought I was going crazy here. I do still say a wolfish Fea can act cobblerish, though (which only makes her a more attractive lynch, of course).

Mac... well, I don't think he's Ferny, and I don't think he's an ordo. Ergo, I'll let him fight his own battles. I focus on him too much in these games.

By the way, "red herring" is a saying. It means a distracting, false hint, basically.

I was going to finish looking at Lommy, but I'm finding her more innocentish anyway.... perhaps my time would be better spent looking at Lari.

It also occurs to me that this whole crazy situation could very easily allow some wolves to put themselves in a positive light simply by being on the right side of this Fea-Dury nonsense. In fact, I suspect that's one of the main purposes of the whole fiasco.

Be back later.

[A Little Green]

I never understood it and still don't: why is it suspicious to make statements of the kind "if I was a wolf"?

Also, I might slip once as a wolf, but not three or four times. Seriously. And if I did, I'd be acting much more nervous by now.It isn't - I was merely amused by the fact that following the logic of your post the one behind Noggie's death would actually be you. Nevertheless it was not a serious point against you and I hope you didn't take it as such. (Though I admit to some reaction-fishing... Result: I'm none the wiser.)

LG. Post 247: Is it so that there is nobody you actually suspect? Except for Sally, most people are either not alarming, or she has no idea about them.In a nutshell, yes. (And actually, that "except for Sally" is a bit useless since I have no idea about her either... :rolleyes:) I'm inclined to vote either Lari or Fea toDay. I can't make out how Fea's behaviour would benefit an innocent villager, and as for Lari, apart from her first reply to my suspicion of her she gives me the vibe of a nervous somewhat-new wolf. Dunno.

I'll vote in a minute, I'm afraid - got to go to sleep and let Lommy post and study and all that...


EDIT: x-ed with Mira and Rikae

[Lariren Shadow]

So I just wanted to point out to everyone who thinks that the Seer dreamed of Fea and she was reveled as Ferny, that that isn't possible. The Seer could dream of Ferny all xe wanted, but it would come back as an ordo.

[A Little Green]

I'll vote

++ Fea

because, like I just said, I see no way how what she has done would benefit an innocent villager in any way. First the Dury thing, and then toDay pretty much all the discussion has been revolving around her. If she's innocent, she's acting very weirdly - she hasn't indicated to even trying to turn the discussion elsewhere even though, if innocent, she would know the village is wasting its energy on talking about someone who doesn't need to be talked about. Stinks of cobblery to me.


EDIT: x-ed with Lari

[Rikae]

So I just wanted to point out to everyone who thinks that the Seer dreamed of Fea and she was reveled as Ferny, that that isn't possible. The Seer could dream of Ferny all xe wanted, but it would come back as an ordo.

All I meant to say (maybe I said it wrong) is that if Fea is a wraith, she probably expects that the seer knows and considers herself done for anyway.

But then, you know how she plays as a baddie - you were a wolf with her just one game ago. If you were a wolf this time, you would know better than to defend her... hmm...?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Lommy: Starts of with sugesting that Nogrod was killed because of possible Ranger suspicions, which I think could be correct. I don’t understand however why my vote was fatalist, what does fatalism (determinism) have to do with it? She mentions being uneasy about Sally.
In 437 she mentions having lynching Fea as a backup plan, which is a very weird suggestion, but not nesisarily a wraith suggestion.

All in all I think Lommy looks very innocent and I will move on to look at Sally, a person I had forgotten all about until I looked through Lommy’s posts.

Sally: I am really torn about Sally. . . She hardly said anything yesterday due to babysitting and such and today she has not been active at all. It is very hard to judge people on day 1 alone and she has not contributed with anything of substance since. Sally is normally a person that you notice, so when you hear hardly anything from her, you get the feeling that she is up to no good.

Mac: Starts the day of with a long post about what happened in the ending of Day 2, although not objective it gives a fairly desent overview of things. Then he makes that ridicules case against me and Fea. It does not make sense that he discards me as seer, because he doubt the seer would be so obvious, but thinks it plausible that I would be so obvious as a wraith. He uses my own words against me, which is always a good tactic, but basicly it seems like an easy case that might catch on. . . Then he makes his post about the reasons to kill Nogrod, he concludes that neither Aganzir nor Fea would kill him. Then he have 2 posts of comments which actually comes of as rather innocent. I am slightly worried about Mac and in lack of other candidates could vote for him, but I see no smoking gun yet.

Aganzir: Starts today of with a rant about Lommy, which makes you wonder. I don’t get why Lommy must not compare her to how she have played in other games, that is often a good way to find wraiths. It could that Aganzir is just general annoyed and innocent, but it can also be frustrating to be a wraith and get accused on (according to your self) “false” reasons. Anyways it is not a really incriminating post, but one that draws attention and maybe put together with other posts can give a good impression of Aganzirs role.
I think Aganzir’s post 474 seem very innocent, I cannot really explain why. . .I guess she just seems genuine and her responses do not seem like they are fabricated.


I might look at a few others like Rikae. . .but I don't know if I have the energy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

IN THE PRESENT TIMES!!!

Fast, so that I don't x-post with too many. I may look more closely at the last few ones once more as soon as I post this, I just more or less skimmed through them.


Reading through the beginning of toDay: I am glad people think the same as I do...

Oh, crap it all. I know. I bet the wolves were thinking something like: "Why is Nogrod making such an issue about Dury's ranger impersonation? Maybe because... he's the real ranger!" I think that'd make a lot of sense. More sense than any other explanation I'm coming up with at the moment. (His posts are not seerish, he would not actually make a good no-trace kill etc.)
That's what I thought and still think.

Well, well, well.

YesterDay at deadline, I thought only one of two things could be happening: either I'd found myself (again) in a village consisting mostly of cobblers, or a lot of people were once again IM'ing while werewolfing, doubtless with alcohol involved. On second thought, though, I suppose it's just a matter of one wine-drinking, sleep deprived Noggins, one Mac who didn't wish to die, one cobbler ready to get herself lynched, and a couple of newbies without enough experience to recognize the insanity of it all (except Berry).
And that's also more or less what I thought.

Once again: Fea is a Cobbler. Mac is likely a Wolf. Do not listen to anything Fea says. That would be the best for us all, I am sure.

Beregond voting Mac makes a good impression on me, likewise his first post toDay.

I agree Fea seems very unlikely to have the village's best interests at heart. How can you be sure she's the cobbler rather than a wraith, though? I'd guess it took more than one baddie to make that lynch happen.
Of course. It took one Macwraith and one Cobbler-Fea.

Taking part in a joke discussion several hours later and without even having anything witty to say? If these carrot-potato things are supposed to be taken as hints, I'd be eyeing Rune very carefully...
I hardly think it had anything to do with hints. He simply commented on that because he liked that when he saw that. And, who knows how many bottles of window cleaning liquid had he had prior to that...

Some Mira and Lari could have been voting to "save Fea" because of RL friendship, however silly that is, I think. (That does not mean they are innocent, though.) The two of them have been slipping under my radar a lot (of course. They post far from often or long, and I have never played with them before), but I actually think a Wraith might be hiding there. I need to look at their votes for Dury yesterDay once more.

If Durelin had turned out to be a wolf... er, wraith, I'd have called that the worst slip ever. As it is, I don't know what she meant.

It's obvious what she meant. She was a Cobbler, not sure who is the Wraith and who not. Maybe she thought she's lynching a Wolf, maybe not. In any case, this is a clear signal.

I like Nerwen's analysis of the voting process, I have to agree with it. (I just hope Nerwen is not a clever wolf who had prepared grounds for that... but I am pretty certain there is at least one Wolf among these Dury-voters, or maybe likely two - Mac and somebody else, either Lari or Mira, most probably.)

I don't like Lari's posting: seeming fishy to me in some way.

Fea looks a bit like an evil mastermind. She puts the bandwaggon on its rails and does not hesitate about it one second, despite very questionable grounds.
Mirandir and Lari - synchronised werewolfing? They both make a list shortly before things get rolling, and neither suspects Durelin. They both defend Fea, they both change their minds on Durelin, they both make a very similar vote post. It is inconceivable that this was planned, so not both of them are wraiths. A wraith-cobbler combo is possible. Newbieness exonerates Mirandir a little, but Lari gets no such bonus anymore.
Rune's desire to save Fea is out of proportion. Mirandir and Lari are her RL friends, so it's more understandable. I thought that maybe Rune was the seer and dreamt of Fea, but no way would a seer risk himself when his innocent dream is not challenged seriously, which Fea wasn't. Also, if he wanted to save Fea, why go after Durelin? Even if he knew about Fea's innocence, he must've realised that the reasons against Durelin were ridiculous. I remember that he stated something about "experienced players should know better". He is more than experienced enough to know that you lynch the people who act suspicious, not the people who act weird. Stupid lynches like that happen way to often. I suspect that Rune and Fea are companions.
Rikae and especially Brinn take the role of the voice of reason. I believe they are innocent. They could be smart wraiths, but for now, I don't think so.
And what Mac says is just baaad. I mean, he not even mentions the chance of Fea being a Cobbler (that could cause people who suspect her thinking: she's a Wraith, and thus, lynch her - giving the Wraiths one more free day in exchange for this little sacrifice), instead he throws one more possible Cobbler in front of us (to confuse us, likely?), what more, he tries to pair her up with Rune, who looks innocent to me (cf. above). This way, he possibly hopes to widen the losses: they are BOTH baddies, let's get rid of her AND him after that, as well!

Now if we were to try to lynch Fea toDay, I'd be more for it than anyone else(unless maybe Mac or Rikae because, well, Mac has been sort of saved twice now and some of Rikae's posts are making me wonder).
But we don't want to lynch her: We want to lynch a Wolf. And Fea is most likely a Cobbler. Of course, it's good to get rid of her, but even better is to just stop paying attention to her at all, and find and lynch the Wolves.

I see Mac has again been posting lists and candidates for why Nog was killed, good, nice, but again: offering questions and options does not really help, quite the opposite. It creates confusion in the village, people disperd, which is just what the Wolves need.

So what I was thinking was this: I have nothing much else to go on. Then I refreshed the page a lot. Right before Fea had poster her vote I had pretty much made up my mind to vote for Durelin. I had no other good suspects. Durelin was the best option at the time for me, I don't know why, maybe my mind at almost 1 AM is not the best thing. Ergo I decided to vote for her. Rune then jumped in while I was refreshing the mad posting so it looked like I was listening to him.

Think I’m suspicious all you want, but I also voted Durelin on Day 1 for the same reasons. I don’t know if that makes me stupid or what.
Lari's vote for Dury is something I like not, and her explanation is something I won't buy easily. She could have wholly made that up. However, the fact that she voted Dury both Days speaks in her favour: that would be quite some luck. Unless... maybe I will re-read the voting again once more.

Mac: Two options I see: Fea is innocent and set up by the wolves/wraiths to be lynched by us. Possiblity. Second option she is guilty, decided that to throw suspicion away from other wolves/wraiths she should sacrifice herself and be lynched.
And you don't mention the possibility of Fea being the Cobbler. Which is what I think she is.

So I just wanted to point out to everyone who thinks that the Seer dreamed of Fea and she was reveled as Ferny, that that isn't possible. The Seer could dream of Ferny all xe wanted, but it would come back as an ordo.

Okay, did anybody say they think that (like I say, I just skimmed through the last few posts, so I may have missed that), or if not, why are you saying that?

[Lariren Shadow]

Mac: Why would I be happy to lynch Fea today? Same reason you would be, to not die. There is a high probability it will come down to her and me today and, well, I'd vote her to save myself.

As for my suspcions: you(Mac) are high up on my list. Actually, it's you and Rune. It's not an attack, but you're posts don't read right to me.

As for Rune, well I know my vote was not meant to be part of a bandwagon. At least not intentionally. Rune's, on the other hand, was part of it. I just don't like it.

And Rikae, I hope you're taking a very good look at my posts.

[Thinlómien]

Says pointing out Frodo-ish behavior helps the wolves (also misleading).What's misleading about that?

The way Beregond reacted to this joke of Rikae's (her saying that she is the seer) - I don't like it. A newbie could ask if it was a joke, yes, why not, but the way he ends up thinking about it seriously... still, he is a newbie.
But what more, Fea was feeding it. She is obviously desperately trying to make the Wolves know she is on their side. Because otherwise, I cannot imagine HER - an experienced player - getting confused by somebody like Beregond (read: a newbie No offense, Beregond) and actually questioning this obvious joke! And I do not even stop to think that Fea could even consider this a serious revelation. Come on.But I was wondering if I should take Rikae seriously, or not. So I don't think being unsure there is suspicious. Or newbieish. ;)

If she's innocent, she's acting very weirdly - she hasn't indicated to even trying to turn the discussion elsewhere even though, if innocent, she would know the village is wasting its energy on talking about someone who doesn't need to be talked about. Stinks of cobblery to me.Oh, now that is a good point. Indeed. But I still think I'd rather vote a possible wolf than Fea who is only a probable Ferny. But I won't be terribly disappointed if you others lynch her, especially if she's Ferny and not just a general walking cloud of confusion.

*off to analyse sally*


edit: xed with Rune, Legate and Lari

[Lariren Shadow]

But then, you know how she plays as a baddie - you were a wolf with her just one game ago. If you were a wolf this time, you would know better than to defend her... hmm...?

Yes I did, and I'm not a baddie in this game.

And I like your new signature.

[Lariren Shadow]

Okay, did anybody say they think that (like I say, I just skimmed through the last few posts, so I may have missed that), or if not, why are you saying that?

I saw a bunch of people say "seer-dreamed" and "Fea seer-dreamed cobbler/Ferny". It seemed to be a trend. I thought I would point it out.

[Lariren Shadow]

Clearly I need to read more throw posts before just jumping to the end. And not watch and movie and try to read for my history of England class at the same time as WW, therefore:

And you don't mention the possibility of Fea being the Cobbler. Which is what I think she is.

I don't mention her being the possible Cobbler because, the way I see this game, there is no Cobbler. Ferny is an Informer. Ferny doesn't get to know the role of the person they tell the wraiths/wolves to lynch. While I don't think xe is on our side, I don't see the connection between a Cobbler, who gets to know what role the person they spy on is plus is clearly on the side of the wolves/wraiths and Ferny, the Informer, who gets to pick one person they think the wolves/wraiths should kill each night, but don't get to know the role of the chosen player. To me at least, they are entirly different roles.

I said it before, Ferny may be on the wolves/wraiths side, but could easily be a thorn in their side.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As for my suspcions: you(Mac) are high up on my list. Actually, it's you and Rune. It's not an attack, but you're posts don't read right to me.
As our dear dead comrade Nog would have said, "I mean this looks so baad!" Since when do you suspect Mac, Lari?

But I was wondering if I should take Rikae seriously, or not. So I don't think being unsure there is suspicious. Or newbieish. ;)
Okay, why not. (Unless you are a wolf :p ) But to those of the Wise, like myself, it was obvious it is not serious.

I saw a bunch of people say "seer-dreamed" and "Fea seer-dreamed cobbler/Ferny". It seemed to be a trend. I thought I would point it out.

Okay... I probably missed that. Care to say just who, besides the case with Rikae, mentioned that?

[Rikae]

Day 2's voting:

Durelin voters:

Fea:
First she echoes Noggie's bizarre reasoning. Now she's trying to pass her vote off as a revenge/joke vote, but she was obviously trying to give some people (read: newbies) the impression that Nog's theory had merit here (just after saying that it's useful to discuss the ranger's identity!):

I just can't figure out why ordos would set themselves up to be lynched unless they're taking one for the team in effort to set up a bandwagon so the people later on can analyze what happened?



Like... it just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm very tempted to vote Dury as I don't know what she's playing at. I feel like the Ranger wouldn't make a point of making herself wraith-bait.



Right before her vote, to Nog:

It's occurred to me that I want to sacrifice a fellow wolf every time I play an evil role. But there never seems to be any support from my colleagues... :rolleyes:
Perhaps Fea-cobbler thought Nog was a wolf sacrificing his fellow-wolf Durelin? Perhaps she was indicating to her fellow wolves that she intended to sacrifice herself (she continues “support my vote if you want”)? Well, anyway, enough about her. Obviously, a very suspicious vote.

Nogrod makes the one mention of lynching Fea that sets off all the save-Fea nonsense:

I already said I was a bit reluctant to vote for Dury even if I have concerns about her but this might do it... Or are there people enough to lynch Fea?



I just noticed this - Beregond to Fea:


Responding to Fea: I don't see "taking one for the team" as bad, or unlikely, but it might be ill-advised in most situations.


Translation “Roger, cobbler tower”?

Lari:


Ok, so even after a lot of thinking and really not going off of what Rune said, my vote is:

++Durelin


I know its IC voting, but part of me thinks that putting her as a wolf would have been genius.


Now, this is weird. Lari, what did you mean by “really not going off what Rune said”?

Rune:
votes Dury – supposedly as part of his irrational fear of Fea being lynched. What to make of that, though? Either Rune is nuts (well, more so than I already thought), Rune thinks Fea is gifted (and is nuts), or Rune is evil (and nuts).

Mira:
votes Durelin claiming her IC posting makes her suspicious. Today she's saying she wasn't following Fea, but in her vote post, she points to an earlier post for her reasoning, which is as follows (if I'm looking at the right post):


I agree with Fea. Why would a Ranger make such a point of being out in the open? That's like screaming "Here I am! Come kill me!" That's just poor gameplay in my opinion. Unless, as Fea said, Durelin is playing at something else. Seems mighty suspicious to me.


Italics mine.

Mac:
votes Durelin. He's obviously trying to save himself, which tells us pretty much nothing about him.

Nogrod:
votes Durelin reluctantly. An innocent enough vote, even if he wasn't a known innocent by now.

Conclusions:
Fea: Outrageously suspicious.
Lari: Fishy
Rune: Who knows?
Mira: Slightly fishy.
Nogrod: Innocentish.
Mac: No read based on the vote.

And a non-Dury voter: Beregond: Fishy.

I'll continue in a minute with the non-Dury voters, who really need some attention.

[Rikae]

I don't mention her being the possible Cobbler because, the way I see this game, there is no Cobbler. Ferny is an Informer. Ferny doesn't get to know the role of the person they tell the wraiths/wolves to lynch. While I don't think xe is on our side, I don't see the connection between a Cobbler, who gets to know what role the person they spy on is plus is clearly on the side of the wolves/wraiths and Ferny, the Informer, who gets to pick one person they think the wolves/wraiths should kill each night, but don't get to know the role of the chosen player. To me at least, they are entirly different roles.

I said it before, Ferny may be on the wolves/wraiths side, but could easily be a thorn in their side.

You're mistaken about the cobbler role, then. Cobblers normally know absolutely nothing, in addition to having no contact with the wolves. They are simply villagers who want the wolves to win.
Ferny is more powerful than the typical cobbler because he has a way of communicating with the wolves. What you're talking about is a sort of seer-cobbler hybrid, and not a typical role. (I've seen a few of those, though - had one in the game I modded, in fact. ;))

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't mention her being the possible Cobbler because, the way I see this game, there is no Cobbler. Ferny is an Informer. Ferny doesn't get to know the role of the person they tell the wraiths/wolves to lynch. While I don't think xe is on our side, I don't see the connection between a Cobbler, who gets to know what role the person they spy on is plus is clearly on the side of the wolves/wraiths and Ferny, the Informer, who gets to pick one person they think the wolves/wraiths should kill each night, but don't get to know the role of the chosen player. To me at least, they are entirly different roles.

All right. To be precise: a Cobbler is a person who is just an ordo, but is on the Wolves side (doesn't know anything about who the Wolves are), but tries to help them. Usually by wreaking havoc upon the village.

But there is a grain of truth in here, the Informer's role is more in trying to help the Wolves, giving hints about who the Ringbearer might be... but still, he can "Cobble around". I don't see as much why he should not do that, it's probably the best he can do to help the Wolves anyway.

But Rikae said something about Fea eventually being capable of being a "Wolf playing a Cobbler". May be so. But still, I believe there are others: Mac, for example; who are more likely Wolves.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Thinlómien]

Her first several posts are just bantering. That doesn't point to anything.

In her first actual post, she does not suspect anyone, just makes a list of people that looks like a list of suspects, but is in fact a list of people she has general or historical reasons not to trust. I don't like that. Most of her reasons not to vote for people are that way too, only two are related to the actual game. It's easier for a wolf to make lists if she can hide behind general arguments and doesn't have to make anything out of the actual game that's going on.

When she wonders who to vote and narrows it down to those who already have votes, she ends up looking really fishy because she ends up saying she could vote almost everyone. Looks like a wolf who doesn't know which chance she's going to seize yet. (And if she's a wolf, I'd be looking at Brinn since this all to wolf-on-wolfy...
Brinn: Could be. Very well could be. But her suspiciousness (if that's even a word) could just be stress since she says she's been having a rough day or two. Perhaps we should give her the benefit for toDay? We'll see. That flipflopping and especially that "perhaps we should give her the benefit of doubt" and then "we'll see" to soften it - it looks like she does not want Brinn to get lynched but will vote her to look better if necessary.)

She votes Mac because does not want to vote Brinn or me. That's okay by my standards.

Day2 then? Joking and making the vote tally at first - so nothing of importance, either way.

And then this
So, without reading toDay in great detail, I was really concerned by yesterDay's voting of Gollum. Now while Mac was trying to save himself, upon looking it over again I think it was more of an innocent Mac trying to save himself while the wraiths took advantage of it.which has been already pointed out as weird by many.

And then RL took her away... and she only returned to make a baffled comment about the Dury-lynch. And we haven't heard of her toDay yet.

I think she looks quite bad. She deserves a lot more spotlight than has been given, and I'm inclined to vote her toDay.


edit: xed with everybody since my last post

[Lariren Shadow]

What you're talking about is a sort of seer-cobbler hybrid, and not a typical role. (I've seen a few of those, though - had one in the game I modded, in fact. ;))

...so the first game I was in(ie the last one) where the Cobbler got to know the roles of the people he spied on is not normal? A more Ferny type Cobbler is normal? Ok then. That's really news to me actually.

As to Legate: right now I can't find any besides Rikae though I do remember someone saying it. Or it could be my tired mind jumbling things together. Either way, I'm tired and hungry(and whinny apparently) and don't really trust my mind much at all(considering I just tried to spell "all" "a....").