Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread [Archive] - Page 5

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 12:54 AM

If anyone is going to reveal toDay. Maybe we can schedule appointments for them?
Very well then. Can I schedule mine for let's say...right now? :Merisu:

Because while you lot have been goofing off, I've actually been productive writing up a post. (Yeah I'm slow, so what?)

So anyway I just wanted to say: I told you so. :rolleyes:

Why would Rikae call Izzy the Black Bishop, yet lynch Durelin?

Fea was evil. She was the Black Queen.

Now don't you wish you listened to me?

Though I admit, I'm not always right. I thought Rikae didn't want Izzy dead because it would discredit her. Now I'm thinking otherwise...

I've been such an awful White Queen so far; I even helped lynch a Gifted. :( But I hope this will make up for it:

I now know of two baddies. Yes, two. I already know Rikae is lying. Last Night I tried to make Izzy the White Knight and discovered she is not so white after all.

Unfortunately I don't dream, so I can't know the exact roles of anyone (unless I do successfully make a gifted as I did for Sally). But I suspect that perhaps Rikae didn't want to lynch Izzy over Durelin not because it would discredit her, but because she is her packmate. Of course, there's a chance I may be wrong and one is the Black Pawn.

Let me explain myself more clearly:

The White Queen is a new role with multiple powers.

1. Every Night I can choose a player whose vote will be triple times its normal amount. It's a double edged sword, as it is a power that can either hurt or help the village. My picks were:

Night 1: No one (I misread the rules of my role and didn't realise I was supposed to. Sorry. )
Night 2: phantom (whose vote brought Noggie to the lead unfortunately)
Night 3: Mnemo (which was ineffective since Hansy was already in the lead)
Night 4: Lari (who was dead by morning luckily)

2. Whenever a gifted is killed, I can replace them in the order that they died so long as I accurately choose a White Pawn. Once our final Gifted was dead, I knew that if my pick was unsuccessful they would be therefore evil. My picks should now be obvious:
Night 3: Sally
Night 4: Fea
Night 5: Izzy

I did my best to leave clues along the way, which I'll provide since I doubt anyone will bother to look through all my posts:

On Day 1, I purposely triple posted right away, which is not typical of me. I meant it to be a hint towards the triple power vote in case I needed to reveal.

Day 2, admitting my mistake of not making a pick for Night 1:
and hopefully this time my brain will actually be turned on as I think it was turned off up until now.

A hint at phantom:
the phantom: Seems to be acting oddly ordinary. I mean, just yesterDay he called himself Sauron and now he's the chess board janitor. What happened to the all-important, self-centered phantom I'm used to seeing?

Probably shouldn't have said aloud. I really shouldn't be provoking such behaviour...

Day 3, indicating that I know Sally is the hunter:
And Sally...oh Sally...
She's acting funny, there's no denying that...and I can't really find much reason why she'd want to bring so much attention to herself. However, I still have the feeling that she is innocent, as insane as she is. After all, why on earth would one of the werewolves or BQ draw attention to themselves like that? And while she does seem a bit cobblerish, I also doubt that as well. Simply because the baddies have been doing quite well as it is, so there's really no reason for a Black Pawn to suddenly go suicidal. But still, what's with the odd behaviour...maybe she ate something funny. Others have mentioned she's an easy lynch, and I agree. Which is why I don't intend to vote for her toDay. Though, I still can't figure out why Sally finds me so evil. If she keeps hunting me like this, it's gonna get her nowhere.

Hinting at Mnemo:
Unless you want to be the one to push for another candidate. Do you not think you have the power to sway the voting to someone entirely different? Well understandable, as I've never been quite the persuasive person either, but you never know. Like I said, I'm undecided so I could go in any direction. So if you have a better candidate in mind, please share (so long it is not me, of course ).

And again at Sally:
Look forward to seeing it, considering you are so far very wrong about me. Perhaps your precious Hunter's screen is dirty.

Day 4, a hint that I chose Lari for vote power:
I am quite relieved she is dead, not only because she was evil, but also because I don't think I would've ever figured her out otherwise. Lari seemed to be under a lot of people's radars, some slightly suspecting her, but not enough to actually really have a look at her (except for Izzy who did so late in the Day). Her lingering presence and vote could've been quite dangerous.

And suspecting Fea (which should've been quite obvious throughout the Day):
As of now, one player that does stick out to me is Fea who I think garners some attention. One thing I noticed looking back through the game is how strange it was that she nearly got lynched on Day 1, then in the following Days received almost no suspicion at all. Of anything else, I find that most alarming. I think I'll take a closer look at her posts come tomorrow as I have a strong hunch that she is a baddie of some sort.

I may have not given us a ranger but we now know two baddies and at least one is a wolf, if not both. Either way, our best option is to lynch Rikae or Izzy if we want any chance of winning.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:01 AM

Here do I swear fealty and service to the White Team, and to Brinniel the Queen of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lady release me, or death take me, or the world end. So say I, Mnemosyne daughter of Gaia of Nebraska of the Ducklings.

In truth, I believe you not for all those proofs you cited, but because of your response to sally's first hunter hint.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 01:14 AM

*casually glances at thread before crawling into bed*

*does double take*

Told you there'd be a reveal!

So, if Brin is to be believed (it sure looks convincing to me), all that matters at this point is who has the extra voting power. I doubt she gave it to Rikae or Izzy. So if she gave it to Wilwa or Mnem, and they are the Black Pawn, we lose. If she gave it to me or whichever of those two is a White Pawn, we win.

Anyway, after this bombshell no doubt there will be plenty of posts to wake up to.

Good night!

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:17 AM

Anyway, after this bombshell no doubt there will be plenty of posts to wake up to.

Plenty of posts from Rikae, at least.

Ah, but we don't know if you're the cobbler, phantom.

And it could be that actually Rikae or Izzy is the cobbler.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 01:22 AM

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:29 AM

Okay, so when Rikae did her fake reveal, she must have assumed that the actual White Queen would counterreveal.

So this could mean a number of things.

1). She was the Black Pawn and guessed lucky.

Pros for this argument: holy cow, this wreaks havoc, which is a cobbler's duty!

Cons: She guessed lucky. Seriously?

2). She was the Black Knight and was pushing her mate Izzy under the bus.

Pros: If she pulled off an Izzy-lynch, presumably everyone would trust her and lynch whoever counterrevealed.

Cons: Being down a Wolf with a Bear still in play? Ouch!

3). She was the Black Knight and was pushing the Black Pawn under the bus.

Pros: Well, that's a good use of a cobbler!

Cons: She couldn't have known Izzy was the cobbler, only a known innocent. So we'd have clued onto her pretty quick, and this without us knowing what exactly the WQ could do!

So what does that make Rikae? Who knows? Either way, if we're down a baddie and then down a goodie toDay, it'll just be a repeat of toDay toMorrow, depending on how exactly night kills play out.

Brinn, I am following your lead on this. But Rikae's a bold player and I'm inclined (and hoping) to think that option 2 is the correct one.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:32 AM

o.O
That scheduling works. So... give the next three pages for responses?

Just a question or two Brin.

If you knew Sally to be the Hunter. Which would garner some amount of trust, one would think. Sally believed me to be a Black piece of some sort - so why try to turn me into a White Knight? Seeing as you voted for me two Days in a row. Why not try to turn another player - giving the village a better chance at winning?

On the other hand, sally's opinions are just sally's. Far better, IMO, to have a known baddie--especially if this works as a method of cobbler detection, which seer dreams cannot give.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 01:42 AM

True indeed. Opinions belong to the owner.
However, an extra Gifted would most surely hand a win to the Village.
Because, why would Brin survive the night?
Only one person goes at lynchtime.
So, if like you theorize that toMorrow would be a repeat of toDay. If there was a White Knight around - they could protect during the night. Meaning, toMorrow would not be a repeat of toDay.

How does it work as a means for Cobbler detection?

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:45 AM

Forgot about that whole Knight save thing... Ah, well, there's one more Night ahead of us at this rate, eh? (that's the exclusive, not the inclusive "us," dear)

But if Brinn tried to scry a cobbler, she'd get back that "does not compute!" error, meaning that she'd know that person was evil. Not necessarily that she was a cobbler, but certainly evil. So if she scried phantom and got back "evil" she'd know exactly what he is.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 01:49 AM

I'd say we have the whole Day ahead of us.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 01:56 AM

So, if Brin is to be believed (it sure looks convincing to me), all that matters at this point is who has the extra voting power. I doubt she gave it to Rikae or Izzy. So if she gave it to Wilwa or Mnem, and they are the Black Pawn, we lose. If she gave it to me or whichever of those two is a White Pawn, we win.
Don't worry, I promise you no Black piece has been given extra vote power. :)

If you knew Sally to be the Hunter. Which would garner some amount of trust, one would think. Sally believed me to be a Black piece of some sort - so why try to turn me into a White Knight? Seeing as you voted for me two Days in a row. Why not try to turn another player - giving the village a better chance at winning?
Well for one thing, even if Sally was innocent, it doesn't mean she is necessarily right. Also, I may have voted for you twice, but never because I was convinced of your guilt. Day 3 I voted for you because I found it more likely that Hansy was innocent and wanted to save him. YesterDay I stated I really didn't want to vote for you because I didn't suspect you all that much. But since there was no chance of lynching Fea, I wanted to at least prove Rikae is lying. Though now I realise that your death would've just given her claim even more validity if you are indeed the Black Bishop.

Considering that both Fea and Rikae tried to get you lynched on Day 2, I thought it less likely either could be your packmates. Obviously I was wrong. Really, I should've remembered...this is Rikae and Fea we're talking about here. :rolleyes: But discovering you were evil was not all that bad since it increases our chances of lynching a wolf.

Of course either one of you could be the Black Pawn, and I can't know for sure which two of the other three are White Pawns. But even if we get this wrong and lynch the cobbler instead, we'll still have toMorrow thanks to the gift of vote power.

But Rikae's a bold player and I'm inclined (and hoping) to think that option 2 is the correct one.
Yes, that is what I think as well. Though I'm not sure.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 09:45 AM

Alright ladies (and gentleman), I'm here, and wow...

I'm going to go ahead and believe Brinniel, since the beginning I've trusted both her and Rikae, but I trusted Brinn more. Aswell, her explanation as the Queen role just seems to make more sense, Rikae's was almost too safe, yes it did follow the rules of real chess (with Queen having the same role as both the Rook and the Bishop), but Shasta hasn't followed chess roles for any other piece, so why would he change it just for the Queen?

Regarding everyone else, I'll believe that Rikae and Izzy could be our last two baddies, and if everyone agrees to vote for one of them, I definitely would as well.

So that would make either phantom or Mnemo our cobbler, I have suspected Mnemo since like Day 1, so I'm thinking it could be him. I have reread phantom's posts about 54 times and I'm still leaning towards thinking him innocent, and I really truely hope I do not regret that.

So I will be around pretty consistently all day. You should find far more participation from me then from the last few days.

Rikae

03-01-2009, 11:44 AM

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 11:50 AM

Honestly, Shasta. A good wizard and no evil wizard. We never had a chance.

I'm completely disgusted.

++Rikae

Go ahead and lynch me asap, I want no part in this absurd excuse for a werewolf game. :rolleyes:

Well, there's our cobbler if you ask me, I'm definitely not planning to go along with that vote.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 11:52 AM

Okay, all three of our unknowns have shown up and believed Brinn. Someone is lying, and it ain't me.

wilwa, Mnemosyne was the mother of the nine muses. I am not a guy.

Let's focus on the people we know are evil first, eh?

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 11:58 AM

Rikae

03-01-2009, 12:01 PM

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:03 PM

Oho, the traditional "I've been proven evil and now I'm going to mess with your minds a little bit!" segment.

...What, no song and dance routine, Rikae?

Rikae

03-01-2009, 12:03 PM

Rikae

03-01-2009, 12:06 PM

Brinn, how exactly can you be sure you didn't give double vote power to an evil piece? Is that part of the ability - logical double vote power? I suppose we're all entitled to know the details, eh (sorry if I missed something).

Because if you can't be sure - well, hey. Half this village is on my side.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 12:10 PM

Also, wilwa, if you're right and that self-vote means Rikae's the cobbler (which I by no means believe), then that means phantom's completely innocent.

Which means you, my dear, are our last wolf.

Just putting that out there.

Hey, it makes either you or I the last wolf, and I know which one I am.

But since everyone is more sure of Izzy, I am probably going to vote for her later.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:11 PM

Also, I'd like to point out that while Rikae herself may be royally screwed, that by no means means that the wolves have lost.

If whoever dies toDay is the cobbler, then the outcome of the game fully depends on toNight's dynamics. What if the wolves kill whoever was given the Power of Three? Then we're back to chance. Or what if they kill Brinn and she scried a baddie who then claims to be the new Ranger?

This game may be heavily swung in the innocents' favor (at last!), but it by no means is a done deal. I may be responding to you, Rikae, because I have nothing else better to do, but someone evil is still lying low and hoping no one picks up on him/her.

Mithalwen

03-01-2009, 12:12 PM

Or perhaps the Grey Toyboy.

No, you would still be my King..... :Merisu:

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:13 PM

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:15 PM

Hey, it makes either you or I the last wolf, and I know which one I am.

But since everyone is more sure of Izzy, I am probably going to vote for her later.

Well, yes, but these past few days whenever I've done number analyses I've always included myself as a known innocent.

Everyone is more sure of Izzy? How do you mean? Everyone is equally sure that Izzy and Rikae are evil! Self-voting, especially when you know you're done for, does not a cobbler make.

Rikae

03-01-2009, 12:17 PM

I'd say we should be told, then, whether that's legal.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 12:20 PM

Everyone is more sure of Izzy? How do you mean? Everyone is equally sure that Izzy and Rikae are evil! Self-voting, especially when you know you're done for, does not a cobbler make.

Uh, I just meant that Izzy seems to be a definite wolf, Rikae seems to be either a cobbler or a wolf. I'd much rather vote a wolf.

Is it not possible that Rikae did it on purpose so that we'd think "wow cobbler, no wait that's a little crazy for a cobbler, she's a wolf, lynch her", when she really is a cobbler? I know it's convaluted, but it just seems too out there for a wolf, but it's caused enough confusion to be the work of a cobbler.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 12:25 PM

Izzy, Phantom, I'm serious - go ahead and follow my vote. With the double-vote power thing there's no way to win. I can't believe Shasta gave Brinn all those powers - it's ridiculous. Didn't I say we should kill her? Bah.

Nice job playing along yesterDay, though. I was so pleased that you caught on to my plan. :)

Besides, what wolf reveals her other wolf, no matter how much it looks like they'll lose? Which it seems it's what she's doing here. "Didn't I say we should kill her?" , no, I'm having a hard time believing she's an actual wolf.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 12:30 PM

Hmm...I wouldn't assume anything from Rikae's vote. She's infamous for self-voting, regardless of her role.

If anything my guess would be that phantom is our cobbler, mostly for his interactions with Fea. I know those two can read each other well and I have a hard time believing tp could be so wrong about her. Plus, they seemed to be hinting at each other at the beginning of Day 1. If anything, I hope tp is the cobbler because then it'd mean our known baddies are wolves.

I was thinking last night, if Rikae or Izzy is the cobbler, it'd be better to get the cobbler first. Because then we'd know for sure toMorrow we'd be lynching a wolf. If we lynched the wolf toDay then a cobbler toMorrow, then it's over for us. Unless I'm still alive toMorrow to make my vote power picks for the following Night.

Looking back at the possibilities:

1). She was the Black Pawn and guessed lucky.

Pros for this argument: holy cow, this wreaks havoc, which is a cobbler's duty!

Cons: She guessed lucky. Seriously?

2). She was the Black Knight and was pushing her mate Izzy under the bus.

Pros: If she pulled off an Izzy-lynch, presumably everyone would trust her and lynch whoever counterrevealed.

Cons: Being down a Wolf with a Bear still in play? Ouch!

3). She was the Black Knight and was pushing the Black Pawn under the bus.

Pros: Well, that's a good use of a cobbler!

Cons: She couldn't have known Izzy was the cobbler, only a known innocent. So we'd have clued onto her pretty quick, and this without us knowing what exactly the WQ could do!

1. If Rikae is the cobbler, then she somehow had to be convinced that Izzy was a White piece of some sort because there's no reason to sacrifice her if she could be evil. Of course, if this was so, then her judgment was very off. Putting Izzy on the lynching block would be a risky move for a cobbler, but then again Rikae likes to take risks and her behaviour is cobblerish (though she also acts cobblerish as a wolf and sometimes even as an ordo).

2. It's really funny, looking back through the Days, I spotted this from Mirandir:
Rikae - Vote analysis of last night, looked at Izzy and found her guilty. Could be a wolf throwing another wolf under the bus to cast suspicion off herself.
Interesting that she spotted that as a possibility from Day 2. It's weird that Rikae would want to sacrifice Izzy in the game, but then again it's Rikae. And the way she sets up her suspicions, it does seem a bit pre-planned. While cobblers have made fake reveals, I've noticed that it tends to be more often that a wolf does it. If Izzy really is the Black Bishop, it would've been a perfect bluff, and they could've gotten away with it.

3. Mnemo makes a good point that the Bishop wouldn't be able to recognise the Black Pawn through a dream. So either Rikae would've made a lucky guess, or Izzy somehow hinted to the wolves that she's the cobbler. Or perhaps Rikae didn't think Izzy was necessarily the cobbler and decided to throw her under the bus regardless of her role. Though quite honestly, Izzy doesn't look very cobblerish to me.

So yeah, I still find Option 2 most likely because it makes the most sense and would be quite typical of Rikae. And I certainly hope I'm right.

EDIT: X-posted with 10+ (apparently I'm really slow)

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:31 PM

Uh, I just meant that Izzy seems to be a definite wolf, Rikae seems to be either a cobbler or a wolf. I'd much rather vote a wolf.

Is it not possible that Rikae did it on purpose so that we'd think "wow cobbler, no wait that's a little crazy for a cobbler, she's a wolf, lynch her", when she really is a cobbler? I know it's convaluted, but it just seems too out there for a wolf, but it's caused enough confusion to be the work of a cobbler.

Look, a doomed wolf is nothing but a cobbler with Night Kill powers. Rikae is a bold, bold player (look at her reveal yesterDay!) and I would put nothing past her.

As for a wolf revealing one of her fellows, it's really quite easy. This is how, IMO, wolf!Rikae would wish yesterDay had gone, keeping in mind none of us had any clue as to how the WQ works:

1). Rikae reveals.
2). Brinn counterreveals.
3). Confusion!!!
4). To test, we lynch Izzy.
5). Izzy is proved right; Brinn is called cobbler and just left alive and mostly harmless.

Or something like that. I will admit, the whole "reveal" thing makes a lot more sense to do from a cobbler's perspective. But I would put nothing past Rikae.

Let's hold our votes till Her Majesty shows up, shall we?

x-ed with Brinn.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:34 PM

Well, Brinn, Rikae seems to agree with you about phantom... :rolleyes:

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 12:38 PM

1). Rikae reveals.
2). Brinn counterreveals.
3). Confusion!!!
4). To test, we lynch Izzy.
5). Izzy is proved right; Brinn is called cobbler and just left alive and mostly harmless.

Or something like that. I will admit, the whole "reveal" thing makes a lot more sense to do from a cobbler's perspective. But I would put nothing past Rikae.

I suppose, I mean I've never played with Rikae before so I don't really know how she works, it just seems so crazy to me, :(, uh, I'm sooooo confused.

I almost feel like just rolling a die and voting for someone on random, it's all so all over the place, I can't even think anymore. :rolleyes:

I'll be back in a bit, I need to clear my head and re-read everything from toDay again...

Rikae

03-01-2009, 12:42 PM

I am the black bishop, actually. If you go back over my posts, you'll see that I left hints about my dreams in my lists. In one I listed them with the same "what I see" phrase, in another, I put "..." before my mentions of them.

Not to mention that, since I dream at the end of the Night, I left hints about the role of the person I dreamed in my first post of each Day for my buddies to see.

So there you go. No tricks, you can trust me.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:42 PM

I almost feel like just rolling a die and voting for someone on random, it's all so all over the place, I can't even think anymore. :rolleyes:

Let's just wait and see how Brinn votes, eh?

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 12:46 PM

I can't believe Shasta gave Brinn all those powers - it's ridiculous.
Not really. For the first few Days it was doing more harm than good- if anything I was helping you baddies out. As for the scry ability, I don't think it's too powerful. I can only successfully scry if I choose a White Pawn and since weren't many ordos by the time I was able to scry, my chances of being successful were rather slim.

And hey, you had plenty of opportunity to Night kill me. :Merisu:

Brinn, how exactly can you be sure you didn't give double vote power to an evil piece?
Because I just know I made the right decision toDay. ;)

Also, I'd like to point out that while Rikae herself may be royally screwed, that by no means means that the wolves have lost.

If whoever dies toDay is the cobbler, then the outcome of the game fully depends on toNight's dynamics. What if the wolves kill whoever was given the Power of Three? Then we're back to chance. Or what if they kill Brinn and she scried a baddie who then claims to be the new Ranger?

This game may be heavily swung in the innocents' favor (at last!), but it by no means is a done deal. I may be responding to you, Rikae, because I have nothing else better to do, but someone evil is still lying low and hoping no one picks up on him/her.
Yep, she's right. We haven't won the game yet, so anything could happen.

Well, Brinn, Rikae seems to agree with you about phantom...
Yep. That, as well as other reactions from Rikae make me feel Option 2 is even more likely.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 12:53 PM

Let's just wait and see how Brinn votes, eh?
I haven't decided just yet. Do you guys need me to vote soon? I have to shower then go to campus to work on a project. I wouldn't be back til evening, but no later than 8:15 EST (and probably even earlier).

Of course, I can't discount the possibility that Mnemo or wilwa are Black pieces since I don't know any White pieces for certain. But with each moment of the Day it's looking less and less likely that they're evil. And if one of you are, then you're fooling me... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Meh, I'm not gonna wait any longer to shower. But I'll be back shortly.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 12:58 PM

I haven't decided just yet. Do you guys need me to vote soon? I have to shower then go to campus to work on a project. I wouldn't be back til evening, but no later than 8:15 EST (and probably even earlier).

Of course, I can't discount the possibility that Mnemo or wilwa are Black pieces since I don't know any White pieces for certain. But with each moment of the Day it's looking less and less likely that they're evil. And if one of you are, then you're fooling me... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Meh, I'm not gonna wait any longer to shower. But I'll be back shortly.

Personally, I don't care; I have all Day. But I'd rather see you take the initiative than one of our "unknowns."

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 01:03 PM

But I'd rather see you take the initiative than one of our "unknowns."

Well since these unknowns are you, phantom and I, and we know Brinn is innocent, perhaps we should find a way to work out a tie between Rikae and Izzy, and then see what happens?? Though I suppose that could go terribly wrong...K, never mind, bad idea, we'll just wait I guess, see what Brinn thinks when she gets back. Wow, this is stressing me out, :rolleyes:.

I have an essay that needs some attention anyways, I'll be back later.

Rikae

03-01-2009, 01:12 PM

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 01:19 PM

No, Brinn, it was completely unbalanced. The wolves couldn't eliminate the gifteds, but couldn't make more of themselves.

How could the wolves not kill the gifteds? That makes no sense to me.

The White Queen balances out the fact the this game had gifted wolves, and that there was 2 kills per Night. The wolves still had a great advantage.

Rikae

03-01-2009, 01:21 PM

Er, Brinn just said she could replace the gifteds. So the wolves could kill all they wanted, they couldn't eliminate them. I did my reveal yesterDay on the assumption there was one gifted left.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 01:21 PM

You had the ability to find out the alignment of whoever you scried

Actually, come to think of it, that only was the case after all the original gifteds were already dead!

All that a non-working scry would mean is that the player already has a special role. If she had scried Noggie Night 1 it would have told her absolutely nothing.

So that particular aspect of the role is only valid when we lowly innocents are already down in our numbers!

Rikae

03-01-2009, 01:29 PM

Ok, fine. The game was entirely balanced. A dueling wizards game with only one wizard is just dandy.

You innocents really deserve your victory. An endless supply of gifteds and triple vote power. Yeah. I hope you're proud of yourselves. :rolleyes:

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 01:31 PM

Actually, come to think of it, that only was the case after all the original gifteds were already dead!

All that a non-working scry would mean is that the player already has a special role. If she had scried Noggie Night 1 it would have told her absolutely nothing.

So that particular aspect of the role is only valid when we lowly innocents are already down in our numbers!

Exactly. In most other games the 3 wolves and the 3 gifteds makes it all balanced, this time we had 4 gifteds (and only a small possibility of more) with 3 gifted wolves, plus two Night kills, the White Queen had to exist to bring it back to equilibrium. Rikae should not be complaining, the fact that technically half of us are good and the other half bad, with so few left, shows that this game didn't really give one side a bigger advantage over the other, it's totally fair.

x'posted with Rikae....almost want to vote her just out of annoyance...

Rikae

03-01-2009, 01:33 PM

--Rikae

++Brinn

And that's all. Do what you like. I'm fed up with this game and won't be saying another word in it, whether you lynch me or not.
:mad:

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, who doesn't seem to realize that a wolf-seer is practically useless when new gifteds are being generated.

Mithalwen

03-01-2009, 01:57 PM

as one of the more temperamental werewolf players, I am not going to criticise anyone for getting stressed, I have no right moral or otherwise. I understand how easy it is to get frustrated.

However as a word to the wise, may I suggest a deep breath, and a pause before posting anything too personal / critical?

love Mith

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 02:01 PM

Thanks, Mith.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 02:13 PM

Don't worry, I promise you no Black piece has been given extra vote power.
Well, if you can give yourself the power, then we've probably got this thing won. Kill one of those two, use your Ranger creation gift overnight, and if you are successful at it the Ranger will protect you and you can give yourself vote power and we win. If you don't create the Ranger correctly you'll know precisely who to give the vote power to (won't you?). I guess technically the WWs could gamble correctly and kill that person, and then the game would end in a coin flip.

But still, it's a pretty safe bet.
Well, there's our cobbler if you ask me, I'm definitely not planning to go along with that vote.
You accepted that a little too quickly, Wil.
Izzy, Phantom, I'm serious - go ahead and follow my vote.
I'm not in your service, dearie. As is obvious from yesterday's activities, I doubted your claim, and came into today expecting someone to counter it.
Besides, what wolf reveals her other wolf, no matter how much it looks like they'll lose? Which it seems it's what she's doing here. "Didn't I say we should kill her?" , no, I'm having a hard time believing she's an actual wolf.
But if she isn't, you'd say the final Wolf would have to be Mnem, right?

I haven't really been watching her all that closely. I've kind of just been writing her off as innocent throughout. *sigh* I don't really feel like going back and reading her zillions of posts.
If anything my guess would be that phantom is our cobbler, mostly for his interactions with Fea.
M'dear, I already explained earlier that when I saw that her first post spelled "VIP show" backwards, I had been working under the assumption that she was Gifted. Had I been the Cobbler I would've mistakenly lynched her when I had the chance.

But honestly at this point it does little good to debate me. We already know I'm not a Wolf, and that's what really matters here. We're aiming for a Wolf, plain and simple.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 02:24 PM

You accepted that a little too quickly, Wil.

...

But if she isn't, you'd say the final Wolf would have to be Mnem, right?

I haven't really been watching her all that closely. I've kind of just been writing her off as innocent throughout. *sigh* I don't really feel like going back and reading her zillions of posts.

Yes, cause cobbler was the first thing that popped into my head, I'm not quite as sure about it now, but I'm still not sure she is actually a wolf.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, Mnem seems like a logical choice to me, especially since I've been suspicious of her for a while anyway, and since I'm still inclined to think you innocent phantom, which I'm truely hoping is a good move on my part.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 02:25 PM

No, Brinn, it was completely unbalanced. The wolves couldn't eliminate the gifteds, but couldn't make more of themselves. You had the ability to find out the alignment of whoever you scried, and the ability to break a tie vote; you are a good wizard + more, and there is no role on the evil side to balance that.
Nah, you could eliminate them, and you did eliminate them faster than I could make new ones. And considering I've only been successful once, it's not like I've been making gifted upon gifted. And Mnemo's right, if you hadn't killed Kath on Night 4, I wouldn't have been able to assume that Fea was evil. And anyway, I am not a Good Wizard since I cannot make baddies ordinary and am no more immune to kills or lynches than any of you. Nor did I have the option of communicating with any gifteds unless the seer dreamt of me. In time you'll see it is balanced; right now you're just frustrated because you realised your fake reveal has signed your death warrant.

Speaking of that fake reveal, if I had those abilities that you claimed, it would've been even more disadvantageous to you. Because then I would've been able to dream of you last Night and know exactly your role, then hunt and possibly take another baddie down the following Night. And of course if I had those abilities, then Izzy would've died on Day 2, not Nogrod. When I think of it that way, I kinda wish I had a seer/hunter ability instead... :rolleyes:

x'posted with Rikae....almost want to vote her just out of annoyance...
Yeah, I feel you. But this isn't the first time Rikae has gotten irritated in the middle of a game, so I wouldn't want to vote her for that reason alone.

But I'd rather see you take the initiative than one of our "unknowns."
Yeah. Just keep in mind that if the two White Pawns do follow my vote, then it should be at least 5 votes for Rikae or Izzy. Also, my guess is that the final unknown baddie will want to remain hidden for as long as possible and so it is less likely they'd take initiative and more likely they'd go with the flow. Plus, if you guys decided to vote now, you can still retract later.

I really need to leave sometime in the next hour so I can get my schoolwork done before the Avid lab closes. So I will vote when I return.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 02:25 PM

But honestly at this point it does little good to debate me. We already know I'm not a Wolf, and that's what really matters here. We're aiming for a Wolf, plain and simple.

Seconded.

Still, we have nothing else to talk about at the moment, and if there were some way of proving your cobblerhood ("were" in the subjunctive, implying that there isn't) then we'd know for sure that Rikae and Izzy are both wolves.

The only thing that we do know for a fact is that one of us three (you, me, and wilwa) is dissembling.

Go ahead and look through my zillion posts if you'd like. If you're looking for something, I'm sure you'll find it, because throughout this game I've been spontaneous and seeking to have a good time. I may have inadvertently left a million VIP shows, because rarely have I thought through the consequences of my posting and whether it would make me look innocent, evil, or whatnot.

I am, however, curious as to what would make you so keen as to write off my innocence for the majority of the game.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 02:31 PM

But honestly at this point it does little good to debate me. We already know I'm not a Wolf, and that's what really matters here. We're aiming for a Wolf, plain and simple.
Of course I know you're not a wolf, which is why I wouldn't vote you. But if Rikae and Izzy aren't the cobbler, then you, Mnemo, or wilwa is (and of those three, I'd have to guess you). If Rikae and Izzy aren't both wolves, then you're obviously innocent and either Mnemo or wilwa is the final wolf.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 02:37 PM

Of course I know you're not a wolf, which is why I wouldn't vote you. But if Rikae and Izzy aren't the cobbler, then you, Mnemo, or wilwa is (and of those three, I'd have to guess you). If Rikae and Izzy aren't both wolves, then you're obviously innocent and either Mnemo or wilwa is the final wolf.

This is pretty much what's making me so sure of Mnemo, cause I truly trust phantom and obviously know that Izzy and Rikae are both guilty. Since I'm leaning towards think Rikae as more of a cobbler that's leaving me to think Mnemo is the final wolf.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 02:39 PM

Oh, and the VIP Show hint isn't the only one I caught (though it is interesting and tp could be interpreting its meaning differently than what it really is). I also spotted this:

I'd be happy to let the wookie win. I just don't know who the wookie is.

And I'd also like Lando to survive.

Well then. I feel cheerful this morning. Phantom, I completely agree with everything you've said about Lando. He absolutely must survive.

Maybe I am just stretching things thinking they mean more than what they really are. But then again, you two have managed in the past to make hints out of things in ways I didn't think possible...

Like I said, I need more time to think.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 02:39 PM

This is pretty much what's making me so sure of Mnemo, cause I truly trust phantom and obviously know that Izzy and Rikae are both guilty. Since I'm leaning towards think Rikae as more of a cobbler that's leaving me to think Mnemo is the final wolf.

*facepalm*

the phantom

03-01-2009, 02:49 PM

Yeah. Just keep in mind that if the two White Pawns do follow my vote, then it should be at least 5 votes for Rikae or Izzy.
I just realized something... If you could give yourself three votes whenever you wanted, you would've been doing it throughout. And since you're very confident about your choice today, that means you have it today, which means that this is probably a one time deal which means... you can't give it to yourself tonight. :rolleyes:

Okay. So turns out you're going to have to gamble to some degree. I suppose the only question is, do you have to submit your picks at the same time? (you don't have to answer that!) Like, if you can wait until after you see about your Ranger conversion, that would be nice. But if you can't wait, then I honestly don't see any way you can assign anyone extra votes tonight, because there will be a 50% chance you're handing victory to the Wolves.

Of course, that's no different than having a coin flip the last day, so maybe you should take a chance. Only problem is, you still are leaning towards mistrusting me, and that would put your odds of giving vote power to a baddie at 66%. In that case I'd much prefer the coin.

This is what I said earlier in the game- I HATE being alive at the end. It's nerve-wracking. At least in this game I have an excuse- I can just leave everything to Brin and follow along like a lemming. I don't envy you one bit, m'dear.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 02:58 PM

Oh, and the VIP Show hint isn't the only one I caught
You saw it too? Then what did you think of it when you read it? I mean, wasn't it logical to suspect her of being the Seer after that?
Maybe I am just stretching things thinking they mean more than what they really are. But then again, you two have managed in the past to make hints out of things in ways I didn't think possible...
As far as the Star Wars stuff goes, I was merely screwing around (it was Day 1 chatter, wasn't it?). If I remember right it was Dury who said we should "let the wookie win", and I just agreed with her as a joke. If I were the Cobbler and had actually thought she meant something by it (Wookie = WereBear, perhaps?) then I wouldn't have lynched her yesterday.

The Lando comment was merely because I had just seen the episode of "Scrubs" with Lando in it. But if I'm remembering correctly Nog and Fea took the Lando thing and ran with it, leading to that absolutely silly Seer-clue disagreement (which in hindsight I guess wasn't silly at all, but sinister- exactly as Noggie suspected).

And now that I know it was basically my fault that Nog died... :rolleyes:

I would do that *headdesk* thing, but I've done that enough already.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 03:03 PM

This is what I meant by people being able to read too much into stuff.

Then again, this is the 'Downs we're talking about, where people can give cryptic clues and stuff (yeah, I tried that in a RL game with honors students--didn't work so well) and people will actually FIND them.

I, for one, shall laugh if the whole VIP show thing was wholly unintentional.*

*Although this could lead to some interesting psych theories about the predomination of the subconscious in WW players...

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 03:07 PM

She could have just meant that since her, phantom, Eomer and a bunch of other good WW players were in this game that it made it pretty important, and would be fun to watch. I wouldn't read into it.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 03:11 PM

I wouldn't read into it.
Too late for that really, seeing as I did read into it and helped the Baddies as a result.
I, for one, shall laugh if the whole VIP show thing was wholly unintentional.
I, as well.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 03:24 PM

It is quite interesting that the tune being sung toDay; is muchmuch different than yesterDay/ Even different compared to the beginning of toDay.

Crunch the numbers. Crunch crunch, crunch them again.

Balance. Sometimes balancing a game isn't easy. It gets more complicated, the more roles added to the game. So every possible scenario has to be worked out in the head before hand. There are points. Yes, the Gifteds couldn't be replaced until they'd all died. Assuming of course, everything that Brin has said is correct - which I don't believe on a couple of points. So as long as the WQ was alive, she could turn out Gifted's. Which kind of nulls the Black Piece kills at Night. They might as well of tossed a coin; rather that make strategic kills.

Another note. Mnemosyne. Why so eager to follow Brin around toDay? Seems quite odd, especially compared to what you said earlier.

No one knows anything. There are no "known" roles what so ever at this point in the game.

All that a non-working scry would mean is that the player already has a special role. If she had scried Noggie Night 1 it would have told her absolutely nothing.

Oh! But earlier toDay, you were saying something COMPLETELY different!
Why the change? In this case, the rules for this power - are the same for everyone it applies to. You can't choose the meaning of it differing on the player you are talking about it in context with.

In terms of the Voting Power. In my opinion, clauses should have been made to the role - in the event that the WQ lived a long time.
Because, such as a situation now; if the WQ was able to give herself the extra voting power; then there would be no way for th black pieces to win.

X'd since #1079

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 03:37 PM

Then again, I doubt the White pieces could win either.
I'm thinking it will end in a draw.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 03:46 PM

Then again, I doubt the White pieces could win either.
I'm thinking it will end in a draw.
How could neither White or Black win?

Oh wait, I know how. It seems there's no point in even trying anymore. Because in the end, Shasta's just gonna award the win to the Grey Team. I can see it now:

"Game over.

Black Queen loses.

Black Team loses.

Black Pawn loses.

White Team loses.

Mithalwen wins."

Darn that Grey Queen! :p

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 03:49 PM

Oh! But earlier toDay, you were saying something COMPLETELY different!
Why the change? In this case, the rules for this power - are the same for everyone it applies to. You can't choose the meaning of it differing on the player you are talking about it in context with.

Not that it's worth my time, but could you give me my earlier, contradictory quote? Honestly, I'm quite sick, and I've gotten things wrong with my number crunches in the past. So I may have changed my mind upon realizing the rules better.

As for why I'm "following Brin around," I think that should be quite obvious: I trust her. She had obviously clued into sally's Hunterness before anyone who didn't know about this during the Night could have known. And she explains Noggie's death. We don't know everything? Well, if there's anything else we haven't learned those players have taken their secrets with them to their grave.

I don't know why you're going after me, but it's not going to work. If you think that somehow through a single or double-bluff you can get phantom or wilwa (whichever is innocent) to suspect me to the point that they'll vote me over you or Rikae you have another think coming.

Mithalwen

03-01-2009, 03:50 PM

I like that....

*giggles*

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 03:52 PM

How could neither White or Black win?

Oh wait, I know how. It seems there's no point in even trying anymore. Because in the end, Shasta's just gonna award the win to the Grey Team. I can see it now:

"Game over.

Black Queen loses.

Black Team loses.

Black Pawn loses.

White Team loses.

Mithalwen wins."

Darn that Grey Queen! :p

Well, there's no use pretending any longer.

I am the Grey Pawn; I've secretly been in cahoots with Mith all game. As soon as I set off this reality bomb it'll kill off all of us but her and then the moral victory shall be mine.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 03:52 PM

Btw, I do read too much into things because in the past I did not read into them enough. So really, I don't know what to think.

Right now my gut says Rikae and Izzy are both wolves. But I'm not making a decision yet. I'll be back in a few hours.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 03:56 PM

Actually, I'm not going after you in some conspiracy or trickery to get others to vote for you.
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies.

If you crunch the numbers, a draw is the most likely outcome.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 03:59 PM

By the way, what do you make of this?
"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.
Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

Am I reading into the narrative too much, and it was merely supposed to mean that Sauron was cheating? If it does mean something, we must take it into consideration when we're deciding which individual to vote for today.

Brin? You're the one who ultimately has to make the call. Who do you think is the safest kill?

I have to get ready for service now, and so possibly I won't be around again until the last couple hours before the deadline.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 04:02 PM

By the way, what do you make of this?

Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

Am I reading into the narrative too much, and it was merely supposed to mean that Sauron was cheating? If it does mean something, we must take it into consideration when we're deciding which individual to vote for today.

Brin? You're the one who ultimately has to make the call. Who do you think is the safest kill?

I have to get ready for service now, and so possibly I won't be around again until the last couple hours before the deadline.

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...

Although if that were the case, why would Rikae act the way in which she acted?

(Unless she's the cobbler.)

Which would make me prefer to get Rikae toDay, personally.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 04:04 PM

Or unless Rikae was just trying to make us all overconfident or something.

Ouch, my brain.

I'm going to need to relax for a bit if I'm to have the energy to keep up with this game and reality. Ta-ta for now!

the phantom

03-01-2009, 05:20 PM

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...

Although if that were the case, why would Rikae act the way in which she acted?

(Unless she's the cobbler.)

Which would make me prefer to get Rikae toDay, personally.
Hmm... Okay, forgive me for being slightly self-centered here, but do you think it is possible that Rikae truly did/does believe I am the Cobbler, and because of that she revealed herself as the Bishop in hopes that I would then take my cue from that and support an Izzy lynch over a Rikae lynch, since then Izzy would be the one with the hunting power?

But of course that would assume that she's assuming that I would even come up with the idea of the Knight being changed to a Hunter. Has she or Izzy left any clues to help lead a Cobbler to this conclusion, and they assumed Cobbler-Phantom would pick up on them?

I would do a quick skim-through to check, but I really must be going.

See everyone a couple hours before the deadline or so.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 06:16 PM

Possible, maybe, but I get the feeling that once again we're grasping at straws.

And that's all that's happened since the last time I checked... man, endgame is quiet!

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shasta
"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.

I think this is merely referring to the fact that the Black Queen is the one that killed the Black Rook. Though I suppose the underlined part really doesn't make sense....unless maybe since that happened Fea was aloud to be in contact with the other two black pieces?? Maybe they still got their 2 kills but they were aloud to work together instead? So in a way she'd be taking Lariren's (the Rook's) place.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 07:25 PM

"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.
Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

I'm not sure what it means. But I don't think Shasta would have the wolves switch roles unless it was hinted somewhere in the rules. The only surprises in this game occurred to my role, which makes sense because it is a secret role. And if there was another secret role, I would think we'd be told. Though I suppose I could be wrong.

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...
If anything, these two may be trying to get us to think that there's more going on than it seems. So I wouldn't listen to anything they say.

Right now I'm leaning towards voting Rikae, but I haven't decided just yet. Let me eat my dinner first.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 08:30 PM

But I don't think Shasta would have the wolves switch roles unless it was hinted somewhere in the rules.
I would agree with that if not for the fact that there was also nothing in the rules about the possibility of changing roles/gifted creation. The pieces were listed, but when it came down to it there were two White Rooks. Therefore I would not be surprised if there was some sort of method for the Black side to add to their flock. If the WQ can turn a White Pawn into royalty, perhaps the BQ could change the Black Pawn? It seems fair (except for that it'd be near impossible to find a lone Black Pawn unless xe was being a bit too obvious). But perhaps the WWs had that ability as well?

Anyway, due to Sally, we can obviously see that the rules are not the end all be all for determining limitations. The reason I am so terribly paranoid at this point is the fact that you seem to be quite powerful, and considering the two evil teams were in competition with each other, surely they would've been given a couple tricks up their sleeve to ensure even footing.

Though as you said, they could've dreamed/killed you and then we'd be screwed, so perhaps there is nothing special lurking at all.
Right now I'm leaning towards voting Rikae, but I haven't decided just yet. Let me eat my dinner first.
That is the direction I would go as well (I think she is the most likely WW of the two). But then if Izzy is the Cobbler we're obviously in trouble tomorrow. The question is when do you wish to take the biggest risk, today or tomorrow? And which of the two do you really feel is the biggest gamble? Personally I would say Izzy (hence my desire to take care of Rikae first- that way if we're wrong the next day we at least killed all but one, and I'd feel slightly better about my performance).

I don't feel good though about the fact that we are essentially being allowed to go in this direction with little fight (by "this direction" I mean lynch one of those two and then the other). Besides Rikae's request that Cobbler-Phantom follow her self-vote, the WWs don't seem to be taking any action, or attempting to get their Cobbler to do anything in particular.

But anyway, of the two I believe most strongly that Rikae is a WW. I believe that her frustration is genuine, or at least she sure came across that way. And if she truly wishes to wash her hands of this, killing her first would also be the sporting thing to do.

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Brin
Right now I'm leaning towards voting Rikae, but I haven't decided just yet. Let me eat my dinner first.

That is the direction I would go as well (I think she is the most likely WW of the two). But then if Izzy is the Cobbler we're obviously in trouble tomorrow. The question is when do you wish to take the biggest risk, today or tomorrow? And which of the two do you really feel is the biggest gamble? Personally I would say Izzy (hence my desire to take care of Rikae first- that way if we're wrong the next day we at least killed all but one, and I'd feel slightly better about my performance).

I don't feel good though about the fact that we are essentially being allowed to go in this direction with little fight (by "this direction" I mean lynch one of those two and then the other). Besides Rikae's request that Cobbler-Phantom follow her self-vote, the WWs don't seem to be taking any action, or attempting to get their Cobbler to do anything in particular.

But anyway, of the two I believe most strongly that Rikae is a WW. I believe that her frustration is genuine, or at least she sure came across that way. And if she truly wishes to wash her hands of this, killing her first would also be the sporting thing to do.

Alright then. It's time for me to go to bed pretty soon, I do have school in the morning. So I'll just wait another 15 minutes or so and then I'll be voting for Rikae.

Just want to wait a tad longer, make sure nothing else comes up.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 08:37 PM

Please wait for Brin, Wilwa.

I wouldn't want to be accused of misleading you. :rolleyes:

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 08:44 PM

haha, I'll wait a little while, but I can't wait forever I'm afraid.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 08:48 PM

If the WQ can turn a White Pawn into royalty, perhaps the BQ could change the Black Pawn? It seems fair (except for that it'd be near impossible to find a lone Black Pawn unless xe was being a bit too obvious). But perhaps the WWs had that ability as well?
If that were so, wouldn't there be three wolves then? And if the BQ scried the BP then they would be on her side, so then there would've been three kills last Night, not two.

I have to say, you're making me uneasy, phantom. Sorry, but I just don't trust you...

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 08:53 PM

Right now it's looking like Rikae is our best choice. For one thing, she's a bigger threat to keep around. If one of our two known baddies is a cobbler, then we need to get the cobbler toDay. And honestly, I have trouble seeing Izzy as the Black Pawn; she just doesn't seem cobblerish. So props to her if she is.

Just don't hate me if I'm wrong... :Merisu:

wilwarin538

03-01-2009, 08:56 PM

Alrighty then, just wanted confirmation from her majesty, ;)

++Rikae

If I don't manage to survive the Night, I wish the White team good luck!

the phantom

03-01-2009, 08:57 PM

If that were so, wouldn't there be three wolves then? And if the BQ scried the BP then they would be on her side, so then there would've been three kills last Night, not two.
No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the WWs or BQ successfully scried anyone at any point. I'm saying that it makes sense that they would have the potential to find the "cursed villager" as it is called in most games, either via scry or kill. If the WQ can turn White Pawns (and there's lots of them so she has decent odds), I think it likely that the BQ or the WWs had the ability to turn the Black Pawn on the off chance they could find xem.

I don't think it actually happened. Otherwise we'd be dead as the number of WWs would equal the number of villagers. Repeat: I don't think that happened!

My point about this was simply in reference to my case about the narrative possibly hinting at one of the Black pieces becoming a Rook, and your counter-point that "It wasn't in the rules so it can't be true". My meaning is that the rules obviously don't say everything, and logically there are things we do not know about the baddies.

But if my crack-pot theory is correct, Rikae would indeed be the safe one to lynch. So my idea was not meant to conflict with your leanings at all. Rikae would be my choice as well.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 08:59 PM

And now I shall eat my dinner. Be back in a bit.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 09:07 PM

No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the WWs or BQ successfully scried anyone at any point. I'm saying that it makes sense that they would have the potential to find the "cursed villager" as it is called in most games, either via scry or kill. If the WQ can turn White Pawns (and there's lots of them so she has decent odds), I think it likely that the BQ or the WWs had the ability to turn the Black Pawn on the off chance they could find xem.

I don't think it actually happened. Otherwise we'd be dead as the number of WWs would equal the number of villagers. Repeat: I don't think that happened!
Okay, well I thought you were suggesting a Black Rook had been scried since you were talking about the possibility of one being around, but I guess not. Anyway, even if there was a scrying ability among the Black team, a new rook couldn't have been scried immediately after Lari's death. So if the narration means anything, it at least doesn't mean that.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 09:38 PM

Why couldn't a new rook of been scried immediately after Lariren's death?

Just to clarify. I never said there was anything more going on, than there seemed. I merely stated that there are no known roles amongst us, and no one knows anything.
Quite a difference.

In terms of known roles, you could technically count the personal role which each person holds as known. However, it isn't known publicly until death.

Why should the suspected baddies be ignored Brin?
Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?
Innocents are not immune to lying.

Phantom you made a comment about the "suspected" baddies not putting up a fight or something along those lines.

See the above comment. If you are marked for baddieness; regardless of the truth - the "innocents" say to ignore you.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 09:39 PM

Back and much more awake/coherent than I was.

Interesting thoughts about evil scrying, though it doesn't seem to do much good at this point? Unless phantom has known this all along and that was his asking whoever is remaining to kill/scry him toNight--:eek:

I'm leaning more towards Rikae because she looks mildly more cobblerish than Izzy (although, once again, this is Rikae we're talking about), but I'm still thinking and hoping that both of them are full wolves.

Hopefully toMorrow will bring enough easily identifiable information (I could just see a reveal/counterreveal, :eek:) that we can have this game in the bag.

And of course everyone's obeying Brinn, phantom! Our last baddie is lying low!

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 09:48 PM

Why should the suspected baddies be ignored Brin?
Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?
Innocents are not immune to lying.

Of course your alignment doesn't change your ability to reason. But your motivations are entirely different from the rest of the village's: we want to destroy you; you want to destroy us. If you can get us to think, whether through honesty, lying, omission, reasoning, emotional appeals, etc., in a way that benefits our own destruction, of course you're going to take it!

Similarly, if an innocent can so deceive the wolves that they make choices that lead to their own destruction, even if it means lying, of course they're going to take it.

We aren't ignoring you because we think your reasoning is tainted. We're ignoring you (except me, apparently :rolleyes:) because we don't trust you, plain and simple.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 09:52 PM

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 09:56 PM

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.

:rolleyes: No, I didn't. However, given your complaining that people are ignoring you, you're giving me a really good case for joining the ranks and refusing to respond to you anymore.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 10:03 PM

the phantom

03-01-2009, 10:08 PM

Interesting thoughts about evil scrying, though it doesn't seem to do much good at this point? Unless phantom has known this all along and that was his asking whoever is remaining to kill/scry him toNight
Har har :rolleyes:- really, this whole thing has gotten totally off-track at this point.

The only reason I brought up the potential scrying in the first place is to demonstrate that, as we were given no warning of Brin's scrying power, we cannot use the rules to cast out any idea regarding unwritten WW powers (primarily the idea I had about one of the WWs taking over the Rook role when the Rook went down).

If that is indeed a secret Wolf power, then I would doubt that they could scry on top of that. I would however suspect that the BQ might've had scrying powers, seeing as she is the counter of the WQ.

And frankly, if it was suspected that the WWs could scry as well, an WP Phantom would be just as likely to wish to be scried as a BP Phantom, as attracting the scry to myself would waste it. So if it even was my intention to get the WWs to waste a scry me, which it wasn't, then you basically just ruined the ploy. Unless that was your intention of course.

But as I said, I think it highly unlikely that the WWs can do anything of the sort. If they can do anything, then it's replace their Hunter. And as Rikae seems to be the Bishop, I'd say that killing her seems like an even better idea than it was before I brought this up.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 10:09 PM

Si, you did.
I wasn't complaining. Merely pointing something out.

It is quite entertaining for me; to point blank say the truth about things and what is going to happen - and watch it get passed over as hogwash. I'm quite content knowing I've added years to my life from laughing. xD

Explain, then, how "innocent villagers should ignore evil baddies because they can't trust them" means "innocent villagers should ignore themselves."

And of course, if what you're saying is true, you're using a time-honored technique: knowing that everyone's going to ignore you, or read through your stuff as entertaining lies, you can tell the truth and it might actually do more harm for the village than lying, because they assume your honesty is a pack of lies. I don't begrudge you it in the least.

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 10:19 PM

Why couldn't a new rook of been scried immediately after Lariren's death?
Because I couldn't scry a new rook on the same Night Nerwen died, and if a Black piece could scry, I would imagine their scry abilities to be equal to mine.

Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?
Well, of course I would expect a baddie to lie, manipulate, etc in order to get out of lynching (unless they had reason to want to be lynched). That's what I would do; I wouldn't expect you guys to just give up and tell us the truth about everything you know. There's no rules against lying, so why not? And since I know you're evil and could potentially lie about anything you say, I'm not going to follow your every word.

Innocents are not immune to lying.
Yes, innocents can lie too. But for the opposite reasons of the wolves. Generally an innocent won't lie if it's ultimately going to do harm to the village.

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.
Obviously we aren't going to ignore ourselves since we all know our own role. :rolleyes:

As for the others, out of Mnemo, wilwa, and tp, I know that one is evil of some sort but not which. While I can't completely trust any of them, I will most certainly will be listening to what they have to say over you, a known baddie.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 10:25 PM

And frankly, if it was suspected that the WWs could scry as well, an WP Phantom would be just as likely to wish to be scried as a BP Phantom, as attracting the scry to myself would waste it. So if it even was my intention to get the WWs to waste a scry me, which it wasn't, then you basically just ruined the ploy. Unless that was your intention of course.

Dear phantom, I am not so devious a player as to try something like that. As it is, how exactly would the ploy be ruined? The wolves don't know what you are any more than I do; they might be willing to take a risk. And if someone did get "turned," we would have no clue of whom they actually pursued.

But this is all spec ultimately intended to induce conversation which will hopefully give those of us who are innocents some idea as to who is guilty, as well as a way to keep my brain occupied in the hours before deadline. Likely you're right and the wolves don't have any sort of scrying power at all.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 10:35 PM

Brin-
How do you know that I'm evil?
How am I a known baddie?

the phantom

03-01-2009, 10:48 PM

While I can't completely trust any of them, I will most certainly will be listening to what they have to say over you, a known baddie.
If you want to know what we think about Izzy- here are my thoughts.

1) If Izzy is indeed the Cobbler it would be remarkably convenient that Rikae chose her as her target during her reveal.

2) But if Izzy is indeed a WW, wasn't Rikae even slightly worried that she would be believed and that Izzy would be lynched, and the next day the WQ reveals with better proofs?

3) Unless she expected the WQ to reveal immediately, and thus "save" Izzy from her fate and pretty much make Izzy look clean.

4) Izzy did not kick and scream about it as I believe an Ordo would, but that means nothing seeing as a Cobbler and a WW in on the plan would react similarly. For the Cobbler would know immediately that it was a false reveal (because they know they're not a WW), and they'd play along. But naturally a WW would too.

5) A given from my point of view, but not from anyone else's, is that I am a White Pawn, meaning that either Mnem or Wilwa must be evil. So it must be taken into account whether or not I believe either of them to be a Cobbler or WW.

6) I would more readily believe Wilwa as a WW as opposed to a Cobbler, as I marked her early on a couple times for seeming to submarine through things. And though I can't remember her fully from past games, I think she's the sort that would act rather... crazy, as a Cobbler.

7) I have no clue whatsoever about Mnem. I have no experience with her. Early on I gave her the Noob free pass (surely she wouldn't have a role in her first game etc), but I cannot overlook the fact that she's been a famous lurker on the Downs and in WW and our mod knew her before the game ever started.

8) At first reaction I might see Wilwa as slightly more innocent than Mnem, partly due to the fact that she seems to be the only one that trusts me. But as it is completely possible that she is buttering me up just to use me later, I really shouldn't allow that to sway me.

Finally-
9) As Izzy is the only individual that is a known baddie, I would likely guess in that direction on principle if it came down to it. It seems to me that at least killing a baddie (whatever they are) the final day is better than taking a chance on a baddie and failing. It would make me feel better anyway, as I have always cared rather more about my performance than the actual winning and losing (i.e. I'd rather play my best and lose than play like crap and get lucky and win- personal pride, ya know).

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 10:50 PM

How do you know that I'm evil?
How am I a known baddie?
Well let's see here...

I sent a PM to Shasta telling him I wanted to make you the White Knight. He messaged me back to let me know I was unsuccessful.

I can only successfully scry a player if they are the White Pawn. Therefore you cannot be ordinary.

So then, you must be a role that is not a White Pawn. Then my options must be:

-White Rook? Nope, she died a long time ago (and so did the second one, but obviously I already knew who she was).

-White Knight? Nah, he got lynched. So you can't be that either.

-White Bishop? No...that was Kath.

-White Queen? Nope, that's me.

-Black Queen? Sally hunted the BQ last Night, so you're obviously not her.

That leaves:

-Black Pawn

-Black Knight

-Black Bishop

All of which are evil roles.

Sorry dear, but you are definitely evil. It's pure logic, simple as that.

EDIT: X-ed with tp

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 10:52 PM

our mod knew her before the game ever started.

Knew of me, sir. Not knew me. Otherwise, all your points look nice and salient.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 10:53 PM

Dear phantom, I am not so devious a player as to try something like that.
Ah, so Mnem is not a devious WW player? *pouts* And I was hoping you'd try and model yourself after me.
As it is, how exactly would the ploy be ruined?
Well, as I wasn't running the ploy in the first place, I can assure you it wasn't ruined. :D

Anyway, seriously, no more on that. I'm done discussing that junk. Quite honestly I'm tired of this day.

I'm going to take a quick shower and such so I'm ready to get to bed after the Day-end. Be back.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 10:55 PM

Oh, and phantom, of course I don't trust you. It's Day 5?, you're a known innocent (unless you're the cobbler) and you're still alive. 'Nuff said.

Also, the whole "she's new so the mod wouldn't give her any roles, right?" could also apply to wilwa, who I believe left WW before Shasta began... I think... Granted, the reasoning doesn't apply as well and I sure as heck don't know why I'm giving you reasons to make you think her innocent (if you are innocent), but still, "she hasn't been around for a while" isn't that different from "she's new," especially if the latter she was a notorious lurkette.

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 10:57 PM

And I was hoping you'd try and model yourself after me.

I don't think the universe could handle it if not one, but two players had an ego your size.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 10:59 PM

Indeed. Logic based on information you know.

Anyhow.
Question for everyone.
What is going to happen if Brin doesn't die during the Night, and it isn't due to being saved?

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 11:28 PM

*Final Jeopardy music*

I think I am going to vote soon, no sense in waiting until the very last second.

*continue with Final Jeopardy music*

the phantom

03-01-2009, 11:35 PM

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 11:37 PM

++Rikae

Good luck toNight, Brin!

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 11:46 PM

Some thoughts about the three unknowns:

wilwa: For most of the game I thought she looked very innocent. Though last Night I took a look at her overall opinions and reaction to Rikae and it all looks rather safe. Could be innocent or could be evil. Though if she's evil, my best guess is that she's a wolf simply because her behaviour does not look the slightest bit cobblerish.

Mnemo: I have been slightly suspicious of her throughout most of the game, though I thought her reaction to Rikae's reveal looked very innocent. I want to say I think she's more likely innocent than not, though obviously I can't trust that as she could very well be either the final wolf or cobbler.

phantom: I must say, he's my most likely cobbler candidate. His behaviour just seems more cobblerish compared to anyone else (besides perhaps Rikae). Also, I admit I can never truly trust him. The one time I started to, he turned out to be evil.

So, in order from most suspicious to least suspicious:

1. phantom
2. wilwa
3. Mnemo

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 11:48 PM

Brin, we're not going to wait till the last minute and discuss things and get all frantic then, are we?

And at this point it's really only your vote that counts. You can put Rikae out of reach all by yourself. Or are you having second thoughts and might actually need one of our votes to help?
Nah, I said let's vote Rikae, so let's keep it that way. We can worry about Izzy toMorrow. So hopefully this is the right choice:

++Rikae

Mnemosyne

03-01-2009, 11:51 PM

Brinn (and this is totally up to you), how much are you willing to discuss your strategies toNight?

Awkward/suspicious of me to ask, I know, but it may be helpful for her* to have some guidance if one of the white pawns is turned.

*used because the majority of unknowns is female at the moment.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 11:52 PM

Nah, I said let's vote Rikae, so let's keep it that way. We can worry about Izzy toMorrow. So hopefully this is the right choice:
Okay.

++Rikae

Brinniel

03-01-2009, 11:56 PM

Brinn (and this is totally up to you), how much are you willing to discuss your strategies toNight?

Awkward/suspicious of me to ask, I know, but it may be helpful for her* to have some guidance if one of the white pawns is turned.
It'll be up to the final wolf to look at my posts and figure out my plans for toNight. ;)

If any of you unknowns would like to give advice, go ahead. But I won't necessarily take it.

the phantom

03-01-2009, 11:59 PM

I'm not giving you any advice.

1) If it's wrong then I'll feel stupid.

2) It doesn't seem you trust me anyway.

3) I already have an excellent idea of what you have planned, and I expect it will work.

Isabellkya

03-01-2009, 11:59 PM

++Brinniel

I don't trust these reveals. Didn't trust Rikae with hers, and see no reason to trust Brin with hers.

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 12:00 AM

Anway, to the final wolf (or two if Rikae's a cobbler):

Kill me if you dare. I have a 2/3 chance of scrying a ranger and they'll no doubt protect me.

Wouldn't it be brilliant if she killed the cobbler? :p

the phantom

03-02-2009, 12:01 AM

*Brin slaps her forehead, realizing she had accidentally given her three-vote power to Izzy*

:D

Shastanis Althreduin

03-02-2009, 12:02 AM

Stop talking.

Day 5

Rikae had been moved hastily, and in error, by a Sauron who saw his easy victory slipping away right before his eyes. The Black Bishop was taken, and Gandalf smiled.

Pieces:
Isabellkya
the phantom
Brinniel
wilwarin538
Mnemosyne

Taken:
Shasta - Ke3xe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)
Nogrod - f6xg5 (Lynched), Day 2 (White Knight)
Mirandir - Ba6xe2 (Killed), Night 3 (White Pawn)
Hansy - g3xh2 (Lynched), Day 3 (White Pawn)
Lariren Shadow - Qh4xe4 (Killed), Night 4 (Black Rook)
Eonwe - Re1xe4 (Hunted), Night 4 (White Pawn)
Kath - Be2xf1 (Killed), Night 4 (White Bishop)
Durelin - a6xb6 (en passant) (Lynched), Day 4 (White Pawn)
satansaloser2005 - Na4xc3 (Killed), Night 5 (White Rook)
Feanor of the Peredhil - Rc7xc3++ (Hunted), Night 5 (Black Queen)
Rikae - Ka3xb3 (Lynched), Day 5 (Black Bishop)

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 12:02 AM

*Brin slaps her forehead, realizing she had accidentally given her three-vote power to Izzy*

:D

ROFL

Xed with His Moddesty

Shastanis Althreduin

03-02-2009, 12:57 AM

I have a problem.

To be fair to the last wolf, I would have to count the PM I received at 12:02 (the same time as the narration went up) that made the attack on the White Queen happen, thus discounting the White Queen's powers, the order-of-PMs style I've done all game (since technically, since the wolf's PM came in first, the Queen would be dead before being able to use said powers). However, the fact that the wolf's PM came at the exact same time as the narration meant that the Queen had no chance to do anything... which isn't fair to the Queen.

To be fair to the Queen, I'd have to let her powers go through even though the wolf's PM came first. Obviously, that would mean discounting the wolf's PM... which isn't fair to the wolf.

I honestly have no idea what to do. Rather than bumble my own way through and make more people mad at me than already are mad at me, I decided to set the situation out for you guys to see and give opinions on.

Thank you for your time.

-Shasta

Oh, and feel free to post. This basically decides the game, so I see no point in waiting another 24 hours.

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 01:15 AM

*long whistle*

So, the basic question is, do the Queen's powers go through or not, right?

Self-interest says "yes," but a coinflip is a heckuvan entertaining way to go (especially if my side wins after it all!)

I'll try to approach this from as unbiased a perspective as I can:

1). If the Queen's triple vote pick does not go through, the game is decided by chance.
2). If the Queen's triple vote pick does go through, the game is decided by her judgment.

So 2). looks marginally better, but it's still not quite fair...

If we want some reaaaaaally interesting Night dynamics, what if to even out the race we gave the last Wolf an extra kill?

Game is now decided by Queen's and Wolf's judgment, a nice little "guess what I'm thinking" dance. Also really stressful, and would slightly skew the stats in the Wolf's favor, since the Queen could pick the (surviving) cobbler.

And just to be sure: did the pick go in before or after narration came up? "same minute" does not equal "same time."

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 01:15 AM

Could we maybe have some veteran WWers who weren't in this game weigh in?

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-02-2009, 07:23 AM

I know I was in this game, but as a dead player, my opinion isn't biased by wanting to win any more (I already lost, and I was only ever on my own team anyway):

As the BQ, I was taken out by order of PMs before I could do anything, and we - at least you and I - know quite well that what I was going to do would have changed game dynamics pretty significantly. Also, Shasta, remember what we talked about? I wasn't the start of the precedent for timing determining action. It's only fair that the WQ be removed by the same set of process rules.

Humbly,
L

Durelin

03-02-2009, 10:09 AM

I say the White Queen goes down before she can do a thing.

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 11:45 AM

hmmm, I guess you should just stick to however you've been doing it up until this point, it wouldn't be fair to change the rules all of a sudden, besides, it's not like either option completely gurantees a win for a specific side, from what I understand either way you go both teams still have a chance of winning.

So I suppose your only option is to let the WQ die, it sucks for the White team but it's really only fair.

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 11:56 AM

Meh, I know I'm dead but I had a thought.

When my hunter pick went in I believe I was still poking you about the narration, so essentially mine and Fea's situation is the same as the one that was encountered toNight. The narration wasn't up, but I sent in my pick anyway because I knew exactly who I wanted to hunt, whereas Fea (may have) needed time to consider her kill. Still, since my pick went in before hers she was rendered immobile so her actions weren't acknowledged.

I know it seems a bit hypocritical given what I told you (Shasta) on IM, but now that my situation comes to mind I realize that neutralizing the White Queen's choices is the only fair way to proceed. I apologize for not thinking of it sooner and thus probably giving you a bit of a headahce, but since the situations are the same, I think they should be handled the same, even if it means my side may/will lose.

In the future, however, I would suggest that if a mod goes by PM order he/she requires that players wait a certain amount of time before PMs are accepted, even if it's just 10 minutes, so that people have a chance to read the narration and make their picks/kills with that information available to them. I would actually not suggest going by PM order at all (given time zones and other circumstances that may make it difficult for players to be present right after the deadline) because it isn't quite fair to those involved.

I should probably fade back into the shadows now but I wanted to put my two cents in for all to see, and of course I'll accept your final decision with as much grace as is possible for me. ;)

Great game either way everyone. Look forward to seeing you all in a proper post game discussion!

Love,
~~Sally~~

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 11:59 AM

At this point, I think it's really too late to change from your original decision, Shasta. Already halfway into the Night and knowing more information than I should, I just have an unfair advantage. And quite honestly while Mnemo's suggestion was an interesting one, I am too stressed and frustrated to be given the pressure of making yet another decision. And we all know anyway that whatever decision I make, it'd just be the wrong one. :rolleyes:

Am I peeved to find out that I was killed before I had even finished reading the narration? Of course. I find it unfair that while the wolf was able to write her PM before the end of the Day since she did already knew the results of the lynch and could immediately hit the submit button at deadline. I didn't have a chance to even process the information from Rikae's death before it was all over for me. But please keep in mind that I don't mean to offend and I am not mad at anyone, but merely at the situation. Because I realise now that the game was over before yesterDay even began since the wolves already had the advantage (and please don't tell me again that this game was unbalanced against the baddies since obviously if it was, you wouldn't be winning).

Yes, I realise the outcome of the Night is due to PM order, which is why I won't make a pick even if you ask for it. After all, even if the wolf didn't submit her kill within 30 seconds of deadline, I probably wouldn't have come to a decision in time. It was late and I was exhausted with analysing everything for hours each day, and while I love WW, I do have a life and other things to do...plus midterms this week. So in all fairness, I probably wouldn't have had made a pick until today since I was basically braindead by 1am. I'll mention though, I didn't realise until late yesterDay Night that the Night went by PM order and how much it affected the outcome of the game. On one hand Night by PM order does seem like an interesting idea. On the other, when the players are spread out across the world it can put some people at a disadvantage. For example, if Kath had been the White Queen, there is absolutely no way she could've beaten the wolf by PM order since deadline is 6am for her. I'm not saying to stop using the Night by PM order technique, but this is just something to keep in mind for the future.

It's really up to you, Shasta, what you want to do. It's not my decision to make, so I could care less. Either do a coin toss or just let the wolves win. Because if in the end the game is determined by a race to who can PM the fastest, then the wolves certainly deserve to win since they are much quicker at making decisions than I can ever be (not saying they don't deserve it anyway; I would've never figured them out were I an ordo). Though if Night goes by PM order again, I do request that it's stated in the rules so that players are warned ahead of time. And that way I can sit it out since I already know I could never win by timing being one of the most indecisive people ever (I never submit my choices until barely before deadline). I already feel bad enough that I lost this game for my team; I just don't want to let it happen again.

If I hadn't already promised Sally I'd play in her game, I would take a break from WW as I probably should. This is the third game in a row I've screwed up. Seriously, something must be wrong with me. :o

Anyway, if you do decide on a coin flip, I too request that you do it via live feed. It'd certainly make my day more interesting. Or you could take my original suggestion and simply let Mith win instead. :p

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 12:20 PM

Oh, and I forgot to mention:

I don't know if you are planning to start a Day 6, but I wouldn't bother. We already know what the outcome will be, as it's quite obvious. You might as well make a decision as soon as you're ready to. Anyway, it'll relieve the tension for all of us. ;)

Shastanis Althreduin

03-02-2009, 12:48 PM

With those opinions and those of a few PMs I've received, I've decided to decide the game by coin-flip since that's what the outcome of a Day 6 would be.

I also don't think I'll be hosting again. That should make some of you happy. :)

Isabellkya

03-02-2009, 01:03 PM

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win.

Durelin

03-02-2009, 01:21 PM

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win

Now that sounds like a good idea. :)

And aww, Shasta, don't say that. This was a very interesting game with a very cool concept and at least I thought it was fun! People just seem to forget that it is a game...for fun...I'm guilty of that myself sometimes.

Rikae

03-02-2009, 01:56 PM

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win.

Seconded - but Mith should win.

Anyway, I want to apologize to Shasta and the rest of you for getting mad. It's impossible to know how an experimental game will turn out, and the point is not to quibble about whether the game is balanced, but play the best one can with the roles and rules as they are... I remembered that too late. Good game, everyone!

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 02:12 PM

I also don't think I'll be hosting again. That should make some of you happy.
Aw c'mon, don't be so hard on yourself. You were not wrong in any way on the choices you made. This was a more experimental game than others, so some of the problems that arose could not be foreseen. Keep in mind that a lot of past mods have had obstacles or problems arise during the game. In the game I modded, one of my wws had to drop out early and I had to make the decision whether to create a new one. I made what I thought was the best decision, but still not everyone was happy. And I know there have been mods who have encountered issues a lot worse than that...and a lot worse than this as well.

So don't let a few problems discourage you. Like I keep telling you, I have absolutely nothing against you. I thought your game was a wonderful idea and you did a great job working on it. When you first told me about the concept about someone secretly having extra vote power, I found it fascinating. It's a new role which adds some interesting twists, though like any experimental role, it could be tweaked and altered a bit if ever used in future games. Of course you have to try out a new role first before you can know what could be improved. :)

All in all, I did enjoy this game. I think I just put too much time and effort into WW which can be cause for extra frustration. So perhaps in the future I shouldn't try so hard and be more carefree and less analytical. Now we'll just have to see if I can actually change my style. ;)

Btw, will the coin flip be streamed on live video? :D

the phantom

03-02-2009, 02:45 PM

Real quickly- I'm fine with letting Mith be the winner. :cool:

We certainly can't play out the final day now due to the fact that Mnem made telling RL statements after you asked for input, as well as the fact that the timing of the conflict is is now known to everyone, meaning that Wilwa, who was not even around at the time, is suddenly extremely clean looking for RL reasons, for she could not have sent in the early PM.

Personally I'd like to think that the day would not have ended in a coin flip, but we can never know.

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 03:50 PM

Yeah, well, before I even posted I talked to Shasta and he said last Day wasn't happening. But, yeah, last Day is even more in shambles than it was.

I call live coinflip on webcam!

If it lands on its side, Mith wins.

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 03:55 PM

as well as the fact that the timing of the conflict is is now known to everyone, meaning that Wilwa, who was not even around at the time, is suddenly extremely clean looking for RL reasons, for she could not have sent in the early PM.

haha, if we had made it to a Day 6 that would have been my exact defence for myself.

Coin flip, draw, Mith win, it's all fine with me. :)

the phantom

03-02-2009, 04:37 PM

I've got it!

Frodo tosses the Ring into Mount Doom and it explodes, knocking over the chess board! The game was entirely a distraction meant to keep Sauron occupied while Frodo crept past undetected beneath the board. :D

I'm thinking I'd rather not have a coin flip at this point. Technically, the worst the baddies could've managed was a coin flip, while the best the goodies could've managed was a coin flip. Two of the players left were guaranteed not to vote for a WW, while the other two had a 50% chance, so if we wanted to be true to the odds the coin would need to land correctly for the good side twice in a row to secure victory.

But rather than do that, I would be content to declare Mith the victor, as she is the highest ranking chess piece still on the board, and stood no chance of being lynched.

**********
Grey wins...

HoME XVI, Derivative Works, Part C, Werewolf Games, section H-

It was an age of compromise in Middle-Earth. In an event unforseen by even the Valar, good and evil united, and the forces of greyness swept over the lands unchecked, doing deeds of compassion and cruelty far and wide. And Mithalwen beheld all that was done, and saw that it was good- and evil. Then she rejoiced and sang, and the peoples of Middle-Earth heard her voice and its surpassing beauty, and they swore allegiance to her and honored her above all others.

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 05:20 PM

sounds good to me :)

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-02-2009, 05:29 PM

I approve.

All hail my beloved Mith, who encourages me to misbehave. :D

Nerwen

03-02-2009, 05:37 PM

Hey, when I first read the phantom's post I seriously thought it was the final narration.:rolleyes:
EDIT: and it was, basically. Weird game.

...Shasta, don't be so hard on yourself. This has been a really interesting game, even as a spectator.

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 05:37 PM

I'm thinking I'd rather not have a coin flip at this point. Technically, the worst the baddies could've managed was a coin flip, while the best the goodies could've managed was a coin flip. Two of the players left were guaranteed not to vote for a WW, while the other two had a 50% chance, so if we wanted to be true to the odds the coin would need to land correctly for the good side twice in a row to secure victory.

But rather than do that, I would be content to declare Mith the victor, as she is the highest ranking chess piece still on the board, and stood no chance of being lynched.
Well, I wouldn't say that. By toMorrow I think it would've become rather clear who the cobbler considering their vote and anyway, I really can't imagine the other two not voting Izzy...

But I'm still content with Mith winning. After all, it's our fault for not lynching her. :p

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 05:39 PM

I concur.

All hail Mith! All hail Mith! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bays1tdQoZY)

Shastanis Althreduin

03-02-2009, 05:39 PM

Alright, that works.

For anyone interested, I flipped a coin. It hit the floor, rolled out the door, down the stairs, and out a window. An omen? :eek:

Mithalwen, the Grey Queen, wins!
The White Pieces (Mnemosyne and Wilwa alive) and the Black Pieces (Phantom and Isabellkya alive) tie for second.
The Black Queen (Fea) gets third.

Discuss everything here. Except how I shockingly dropped the ball and let it smash to smithereens on the last day. :Merisu:

Shastanis Althreduin

03-02-2009, 05:46 PM

Night 1:
Kath (White Bishop) dreams the phantom - Black Pawn (shows up as White Pawn)
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams wilwarin538 - White Pawn
Nerwen (White Rook) hunts the phantom
Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) hunts Feanor of the Peredhil
Brinniel (White Queen)does not send a list

Day 1:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) finds out that the Black Bishop dreamt of wilwarin538 and the White Bishop dreamt of the phantom
Rikae (Black Bishop) finds out that wilwarin538 is a White Pawn
Kath (White Bishop) finds out that the phantom is a "White Pawn" even though he is the Black Pawn
Feanor of the Peredhil and Gwathagor up for lynching; numbers 1-100. Feanor of the Peredhil will be even; Gwathagor will be odd. Random number generator spits out #39. Gwathagor is lynched, and is a White Pawn.

Night 2:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) kills Eomer of the Rohirrim (White Pawn)
Nerwen (White Rook) changes hunts to Nogrod (White Knight)
Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) stays the same
Kath (White Bishop) dreams of Nogrod (White Knight)
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams of Mnemosyne (White Pawn)
Rikae (Black Bishop) kills Nerwen (White Rook) (Nerwen got her hunter change in before Rikae killed her, so she didn't take the phantom with her.)
Brinniel (White Queen) triples the voting power of the phantom
Isabellkya (Black Knight) protects Rikae
Nogrod (White Knight) protects himself

Day 2:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) finds out that the Black Bishop dreamt of Mnemosyne and the White Bishop dreamt of Nogrod
Rikae (Black Bishop) finds out that Mnemosyne is a White Pawn
Kath (White Bishop) finds out that Nogrod is the White Knight; Kath and Nogrod will be able to PM Night 3
Nogrod lynched (via the phantom's powered-up vote): White Knight

Night 3:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) attacks Lariren Shadow (Black Rook)
Isabellkya (Black Knight) protects Lariren Shadow (Black Rook)
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams the phantom (Black Pawn - comes up as White Pawn)
Rikae (Black Bishop) kills Mirandir (White Pawn)
Brinniel (White Queen) powers up the vote of Mnemosyne (White Pawn)
Brinniel (White Pawn) promotes satansaloser2005 (White Pawn) into a White Rook
Kath (White Bishop) dreams satansaloser2005 (newly-made White Rook)
Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) hunts satansaloser2005 (White Rook)

Day 3:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) finds out that the White Bishop dreamt of satansaloser2005 and the Black Bishop dreamt of the phantom
Rikae (Black Bishop) finds out that the phantom is a White Pawn even though he's the Black Pawn
Kath (White Bishop) finds out that satansaloser2005 is a White Rook
Hansy lynched: White Pawn

Night 4:
satansaloser2005 (White Rook) hunts Brinniel (White Queen)
Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) hunts Eonwe (White Pawn)
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) kills Lariren Shadow (Black Rook); Lariren Shadow takes Eonwe (White Pawn) with her
Kath (White Bishop) dreams of Rikae (Black Bishop)
Isabellkya (Black Knight) protects Rikae (Black Bishop)
Rikae (Black Bishop) kills Kath (White Bishop)
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams of satansaloser2005 (White Rook)
Brinniel (White Queen) triples Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) - Fails
Brinniel (White Queen) attempts to promote Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) - Fails
satansaloser2005 (White Rook) switches her hunt pick to Rikae (Black Bishop)

Day 4:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) finds out that the Black Bishop dreamt satansaloser2005
Rikae (Black Bishop) finds out that satansaloser2005 is a White Rook
Durelin lynched: White Pawn

Night 5:
satansaloser2005 (White Rook) hunts Feanor of the Peredhil (Black queen)
Isabellkya (Black Knight) kills satansaloser2005 (White Rook). Thus, Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) dies as well.
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) attacks Isabellkya (Black Knight). Unfortunately, Feanor of the Peredhil is now dead.
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams of Brinniel (White Queen)
Brinniel (White Queen) promotes Isabellkya (Black Knight) - Fails.
Brinniel (White Queen) triples her own voting power.
Isabellkya (Black Knight) protects herself.

Day 5:
Rikae (Black Bishop) finds out that Brinniel is the White Queen.
Rikae (Black Bishop) lynched.

Night 6:
PANDEMONIUM.

Mirandir - White Pawn
Durelin - White Pawn
Feanor of the Peredhil - Black Queen
Isabellkya - Black Knight
Nerwen - White Rook
Eomer of the Rohirrim - White Pawn
the phantom - Black Pawn
Brinniel - White Queen
satansaloser2005 - White Pawn
Gwathagor - White Pawn
Lariren Shadow - Black Rook
wilwarin538 - White Pawn
Rikae - Black Bishop
Eonwe - White Pawn
Nogrod - White Knight
Mnemosyne - White Pawn
Kath - White Bishop
Hansy - White Pawn

Hansy

03-02-2009, 05:51 PM

Wise decisions. ;)

Ok, I loved this game, the roles and the scenarios they could provide. And the people, it was nice to meet you all ^^

I won't be playing here for a while, but I'll be checking you out ;)

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 05:54 PM

Night 3:
Feanor of the Peredhil (Black Queen) attacks Lariren Shadow (Black Rook)
Isabellkya (Black Knight) protects Lariren Shadow (Black Rook)
Rikae (Black Bishop) dreams the phantom (Black Pawn - comes up as White Pawn)
Rikae (Black Bishop) kills Mirandir (White Pawn)
Brinniel (White Queen) powers up the vote of Mnemosyne (White Pawn)
Brinniel (White Pawn) promotes satansaloser2005 (White Pawn) into a White Rook
Kath (White Bishop) dreams satansaloser2005 (newly-made White Rook)
Lariren Shadow (Black Rook) hunts satansaloser2005 (White Rook)

:eek:

Popular much? ;)

EDIT: x'd with Hansy. By the way, you're welcome to join my game, hun. :)

Brinniel

03-02-2009, 05:59 PM

For anyone interested, I flipped a coin. It hit the floor, rolled out the door, down the stairs, and out a window. An omen?
And what, you didn't video record that? :p

Anyway, Mith must have an awfully powerful singing voice considering it managed to knock four pieces off the board... :eek:

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 06:01 PM

And what, you didn't video record that?

Anyway, Mith must have an awfully powerful singing voice considering it managed to knock four pieces off the board... :eek:

I concur. Darn it, Shasta, I told you it needed to be on video!

Heh. Well, I've heard her voice, and while she wasn't singing at the time I must say....:eek::D

the phantom

03-02-2009, 06:15 PM

By toMorrow I think it would've become rather clear who the cobbler considering their vote and anyway, I really can't imagine the other two not voting Izzy...
We can never know, but I planned on doing the most intense bluff-offensive of my life, trying to plant at least the slightest seed of doubt in Mnem and Wilwa's minds that Izzy had a chance of being the Cobbler.

I was planning on claiming to be the Ranger right off the bat in order to encourage them to rule me out as the Cobbler. Izzy would then likely vote for me (or at least I figured in my plans that she would), and when no one followed her vote I would point out that for both a hidden WW and Cobbler it would be in their interest to remain uncommited and hope that I, the Ranger, would lead the vote wrong, and thus clinch the win.

If this precise series of events unfolded as planned, reasonable doubt would certainly be introduced to even the most convinced living souls, and that doubt would've become my tool for prodding and poking and trying to get either Mnem or Wilwa to go for each other. I would have used every tool of manipulation and cloaking and lying and such that I have up my sleeve, and put on an act worthy of an Oscar. Likely I would've leaned towards Izzy for most of the day, but quietly fanned the flames of any spark of doubt I saw from Mnem or Wilwa, until a point arrived where I thought things were hot enough to declare that I was having serious second thoughts and needed to hear from everyone and do some rereading, etc etc.... You've seen me do that sort of thing before (as both goodie and baddie).

I do not claim to know whether or not it would've worked. No one can know. Even someone 90% likely to go for Izzy could've hit a perfect storm of RL events and attitude shifts and reading in the thread which could push them the wrong way. Or Mnem or Wilwa might've decided during the night that they might not want to lynch Izzy after all, and then become suspicious of me during the day and I would actually change their minds to vote correctly.

It is one of the mysteries that will be debated for ages and ages by the wise around the world.

Or at least it will be debated for a few seconds inside our heads. Same difference really.

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 06:23 PM

phantom: Wouldn't have worked on me. My first post on Day 6 was going to be this:

Let none doubt where my loyalties lie...

++Izzy

--Izzy

++Izzy

And.

I TOTALLY STINKING KNEW IT YOU COBBLER YOU!!!

:p

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 06:24 PM

And considering I got First Post on each day that means you wouldn't have been able to do anything to influence my vote, either.

the phantom

03-02-2009, 06:26 PM

I've heard people say plenty of times that they "knew it", and yet they couldn't help but do it anyway. ;)

If I had a nickle for every time someone has aimed a *headdesk* my way...

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 06:29 PM

That's not an "assuring myself" "I knew it."

That's an "informing you" "I knew it."

But since cobblers are Mostly Harmless and you're such a darn entertaining guy (and I didn't feel like messing up your record) I didn't care to lynch you, especially when my priority was Wolves.

So that sound wasn't me headdesking. It was me hitting the ceiling in triumph.

Wow, all of that smugness pervading the air... how on earth do you bear it, phantom?

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 06:33 PM

By the way, good game to everyone concerned; I had a lot of fun and am still shocked I made it till Endgame.

I have to sit out of the next one because I know too much, but I'd probably sit out a few anyway. I don't think the game made me ill but it sure didn't help out; I don't think I can handle the stress of a game on top of everything else I have to do for a while.

And I had no clue I would be so darn loud!!!

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 06:58 PM

argh, I'm very happy I made it too the end on my first game back, but so sad that I was soooo wrong about you Mnemo. And phantom, :mad:....for real, I'm always gonna get you lynched first day, just to be safe, haha, cause I have a feeling you would have succeeded in getting me to vote for Mnemo instead of you, and that would have been a disaster.

About half way through the game I was really wishing I had been evil, cause practically no one was suspecting me! It would have been wonderful....

the phantom

03-02-2009, 07:06 PM

Wow, all of that smugness pervading the air... how on earth do you bear it, phantom?
Smugness, dear? I'm the one saying "There's no telling". You're the one saying "I knew". ;)

If you want smugness from me, let me show you this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=586456&postcount=336) post I made at the end of Day 2. I correctly name Nog, Kath, and Brin as the three gifteds and I name Izzy, Lari, and Rikae as WereCreatures. :cool:
I don't think the game made me ill but it sure didn't help out
This is the first game I've played in a long time that didn't make me ill. I usually lose gobs of sleep during a WW game and fall ill around Day 3 or 4.
And I had no clue I would be so darn loud!!!
Nebraska was pretty noisy, wasn't it?

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-02-2009, 07:11 PM

Phantom, darling, did I leave my platter with you when I left? I can't seem to find it now...

Isabellkya

03-02-2009, 07:17 PM

It quite possibly could have worked on Wilwa, she was thinking of voting for you just yesterDay Mnemosyne.

But, we can speculate all we want.

We didn't suspect you Wilwa; because we were sure you were innocent from the very first Night. xD

I was quite entertained, yet quite paranoid at the same time. Being up for the lynch almost every Day, was nerve wracking to say the least.

The main reason I submitted your name for killing so quickly Brin - was that I knew getting rid of you was the only chance at a shot the next Day. I took the gamble, that you hadn't been lying about trying to turn me into the White Knight. However the general avoidance of discussing what would happen the next Day when/if you died was a bit worrying. As if it wasn't even an option. But I bet that you would be unprotected, and I also bet that the new turned one - wouldn't be able to protect you the Night of their turning. Plus, even if I killed one of the other Pawns; it could've been the turned one - or it could've been the one with the extra voting power. Either way, it was the clearest option.
Plus, the dreadful slowness of the few hours up to the end of Day - was agonizing. Ever since that first lynching/save - I was quite paranoid each Day after; so I thought that you'd all revote for me at the last second. Anywhoo, it felt better to just submit the kill - then spend the rest of the time not thinking about, and debating on it.

Fun game all around, and quite entertaining. I really was starting to have an identity crisis - I couldn't decide if I felt more pawnish or Knightish. Just being moved around on the whim of others. xD

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 07:24 PM

phantom, what I meant was that if that horrid stench of my own smugness was overpowering for the brief instant that I was smug, I had no clue how you could survive being around yourself all the time!

No worries, wilwa. I'm a n00b here so who knows who/what I am or how I act or play. I figured you meant no harm.

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 07:36 PM

A little something I found:

I forgot to talk about that- the idea of the Black pieces being at war with each other. Or not. Whatever it is they decide is the highest priority.

As far as I am concerned, were I a Wolf I would definitely not try to kill the Bear, but I would like to know who he is so that I could bump him off towards the end if necessary. That extra kill each night cuts the village down so quickly. Surely you can't pass that up. A Day 1 or Night 2 WereBear death would likely lead to a White Christmas. Er, victory.

My take on the Bear killing the Wolves- I would definitely try and kill Wolves once a certain point in the game had been reached. What point, you ask?

Well, if we're on Night 4 and no Wolves have died, I would say it's time to thin them a bit. But the Bear wouldn't want to attack them sooner as it might cause them to be wiped out too early, and he would lose their nightly kill.

However, perhaps the Bear will think it more important to completely control the night and end the threat of being slain at night? I don't know....

If that is the case, he will gun for the WereWolves from the start and will kinda sorta be an ally for us. But then again, if he cannot claim victory himself, is not the slaughter of the village his next greatest desire? Surely the Werebeasts are all servants of destruction, and would rather see evil win than good, even if they don't live to see it. If that is the method adopted by the WereWolves and WereBear, then they will be trying to avoid each other.

Though that is no easy task, for if the Werebeasts are able to identify each other with any success, one would think that the village would be able to do the same. So how possible to coordinate is it really? It almost seems silly to try. You could try and do the opposite and possibly do just as well.

Everywhere you look- interesting scenarios and layers of strategy. I love this set up! :)

I AM WHITE

He posted this Day 1, and yes I did catch it right away. :rolleyes:

I'm assuming you put that there after seeing Fea's secret little hidden message? Perhaps so that when you revealed her message we'd go back and see your's? Or was there some other motive?

Well it fooled me.....sadly. Though I don't know why I ever believed anything the phantom said, especially something so obvious given on Day 1, haha, an innocent phantom would be far more discrete. :p

the phantom

03-02-2009, 07:38 PM

You found my clue, Wilwa! You've made my day! :D

But if you were to continue on to my next post after that, take a look at what the first thing I say is after my hidden message. ;)

the phantom

03-02-2009, 07:41 PM

Phantom, darling, did I leave my platter with you when I left? I can't seem to find it now...
Still licking it clean, dear. I suspect as it is your platter that it may have come into contact with your lips at some point.

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 07:42 PM

Heh heh... not really. ;)

Is that what you're referring to??

oh my my my....

the phantom

03-02-2009, 07:43 PM

Exactly, Wilwa. ;)

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 07:45 PM

You found my clue, Wilwa! You've made my day! :D

But if you were to continue on to my next post after that, take a look at what the first thing I say is after my hidden message. ;)

I bloody love you.

Also:

Here's what we know so far-

Sally- Black Rook
Durelin- White Knight
Mnem- WereDuck
phantom- Sauron

So Shasta PM'd me on the Night that I killed Fea and said "do you want the good news or the bad news?" Once we actually got around to 'yes, hun, you're dead, but you fulfilled your role' I asked him what Fea was. He replied, "Sauron, of course." I about had a heart attack, because I wouldn't have put it past him. Heh.

Fea, you homewrecker!!!!!!:mad:

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 07:46 PM

Fea, you homewrecker!!!!!!:mad:

:Merisu:

wilwarin538

03-02-2009, 07:47 PM

Oh wow, confession day one and no one saw it, haha....if I wasn't so mad at you I'd really love you right now, ;).

x'posted with Sally, twice, haha

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 07:49 PM

Oh wow, confession day one and no one saw it, haha....if I wasn't so mad at you I'd really love you right now, ;).

x'posted with Sally, twice, haha

*snickers*

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-02-2009, 07:58 PM

Fea, you homewrecker!!!!!!

I've been called worse. :cool:

Good game, everybody. I lost fair and square. That was fun.

the phantom

03-02-2009, 08:11 PM

if I wasn't so mad at you I'd really love you right now, ;)
My exes all used to say that.

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 08:13 PM

My exes all used to say that.

Before he ate them, that is. Can't leave witnesses after all. :o

the phantom

03-02-2009, 08:22 PM

Before he ate them, that is.
Do you know how difficult it is to avoid arousing suspicion when you ask her to spend two days bathing in teriyaki sauce?

"But why, hon?"

"It, um, will give you a nice healthy looking tan."

"I've never heard that."

"My friend Rosa uses it, and she's more tan than most people."

"Rosa is Mexican."

"No, she just looks that way."

"Her last name is Gonzales."

"Jim uses it."

"He's a burn victim."

"He accidentally used BBQ sauce."

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 08:27 PM

Yeah, now he's given up that tack entirely.

phantom: Here, have some hoisin sauce.

Me: Um... why?

phantom: Because you're a duck?

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 08:28 PM

Do you know how difficult it is to avoid arousing suspicion when you ask her to spend two days bathing in teriyaki sauce?

"But why, hon?"

"It, um, will give you a nice healthy looking tan."

"I've never heard that."

"My friend Rosa uses it, and she's more tan than most people."

"Rosa is Mexican."

"No, she just looks that way."

"Her last name is Gonzales."

"Jim uses it."

"He's a burn victim."

"He accidentally used BBQ sauce."

*looks at her pale skin*

Mehbe I should try that. Phantom, I'll wait until Thursday or so. Then when you come to hang out Saturday I'll look real tasty....erm, I mean pretty.

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 08:29 PM

*looks at her pale skin*

Mehbe I should try that. Phantom, I'll wait until Thursday or so. Then when you come to hang out Saturday I'll look real tasty....erm, I mean pretty.

Look, if you two want to be alone all you have to do is say so... :rolleyes:

satansaloser2005

03-02-2009, 08:30 PM

Look, if you two want to be alone all you have to do is say so... :rolleyes:

No, love, we'll want you to stay for dinner.

Come to think of it, you're looking a little sun-starved as well. Lemme help....

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 08:31 PM

No, love, we'll want you to stay for dinner.

Come to think of it, you're looking a little sun-starved as well. Lemme help....

Look, if I've told you once I've told you a million times, I'm not a good eat. Not enough meat on the bones, and diseased as well.

Rikae

03-02-2009, 11:57 PM

Phantom, I don't see how anyone could have thought you were anything but a cobbler, with all that "I'm so confused! I don't know what's going on!" nonsense. As if you would have admitted it - if it were true, you would have faked it. :p

Mnemi, you were a known non-gifted, of course you survived! :D

I can't believe Fea was in on Kath's and my dream picks! Sally, did you know about that (*points to remark about hunting Kath's dream*)? Fea, you must have had me pegged as the black bishop early on, with all my hints to Izzy and Lari, right? What an interesting setup!

Mnemosyne

03-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Mnemi, you were a known non-gifted, of course you survived!

Shush! I'm still trying to tell myself it was to my own 1337 skillz!

...Besides, that doesn't make me immune from a lynch... does it?

>_>
<_<

satansaloser2005

03-03-2009, 01:14 AM

Rikae

03-03-2009, 05:58 AM

Shush! I'm still trying to tell myself it was to my own 1337 skillz!

...Besides, that doesn't make me immune from a lynch... does it?

>_>
<_<

Kinda. We had a strategy of trying to get the unknowns lynched. :)

And it was all going so well until it became clear that Sally wasn't the WQ... :rolleyes:

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-03-2009, 09:48 AM

I can't believe Fea was in on Kath's and my dream picks! Sally, did you know about that (*points to remark about hunting Kath's dream*)? Fea, you must have had me pegged as the black bishop early on, with all my hints to Izzy and Lari, right? What an interesting setup!

Well... Here's how it worked:

I didn't receive the roles, just the names. But that still left me able to make a logic list of who wasn't certain roles. After asking Shasta to make sure nobody knew I was getting the dreams, I was able to narrow it down even more, knowing that the wolves wouldn't dream of themselves. (I asked this because if I was a Seer and knew somebody was getting my dreams, the FIRST thing I'd do was dream of myself. "Ah. Well then. She's not that!")

Anyway, I was able to say definitely, "These people aren't wolves." I'll never doubt myself again, though, about White Seers- I had Kath pegged at post 33 (I think it was 33) and then doubted myself. "Nah, she was just joking."

There was also the problem of attacking the Seers: I didn't want to, because I'd lose all this good information I was getting, and I didn't want to just casually pick off whoever was being dreamed of, because how long could my secret last if the WS spotted all their dreams dying the next Night?

So... What I'm trying to say is basically that my tragic downfall was that on that last eventful Day of my life, I knew that Izzy was the Ranger (but for the wrong reason, interestingly enough), and I knew that Sally was the Hunter (though I had no idea how, and kept reverting to thinking she was the Cobbler, due to knowing both sides had dreamed of her, but neither had done anything about it), and I was pretty sure that the phantom was the Cobbler (though there wasn't a chance I was going to attack him to find out because then I'd lose some of my power, even though I'd gain an ally (BQ attacking the cobbler meant deputizing the cobbler into a Gifted on my side, however I'd no longer have automatic protection against the first time the Wolves tried to kill me at Night))...

The problem was that nobody had dreamed of Brinn or Rikae, so I had no real way to determine which of them was lying. Especially because Rikae didn't contradict anything that I knew was true (apart from voting for Sally, who I knew wasn't a wolf).

So... That last Day? I saw where Sally said she was hunting Kath's last dream, and I knew that Kath's last dream was Rikae, and I couldn't figure out how Sally could possibly know that, since Kath died before she could find out Rikae's role anyway. Which sealed my thought that Sally was - convincingly - lying through her teeth.

But yeah... My plans for everything hinged on Rikae being the WQ, and the wolves killing her at Night. It was interesting that I had all of this Nightly intelligence, and my loss of the game still came down to the two people I couldn't be sure of.

And nope, hehe, I didn't know about all Fea's mad skills until well after I was dead. I pretty much did one of these....:eek:

Do you know how hard it is for me to play stupid? I had to go through the entire game pretending like I didn't have an ever expanding detailed list of secret information. It was worse than actually being a Seer, because, if I slipped and it was noticed? If I claimed White Seer, the first thing that would happen is I'd be dreamed of, probably by both sides. At least if a real Seer comes out, there are Rangers around for them. :rolleyes:

I would also just like to register my incredulity that I was never dreamed of by either side. :)

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-03-2009, 09:52 AM

The phantom will like this:

There was actually a [short] time when I was going to attack the cobbler.

Because my attack would give me the ability to turn xem into a Seer, Ranger, or Hunter that was on my team... I asked Shasta if I could Queen the Black Pawn.

He said, "I suppose, but I don't see why you would."

So I explained: Turn the BP into a BQ at Night, sacrifice them during the Day, have everybody think that the BQ was dead. Skip a Night kill so that they wouldn't suspect, and then massacre them all unexpectedly later.

And I totally would have attempted it without batting an eyelash if he hadn't told me that he planned on posting the BP death information as something that was along the lines of "Black Queen's Rook." "Dead: Black Queen's Queen" really wouldn't have been that useful...

Shastanis Althreduin

03-03-2009, 11:06 AM

Mithalwen

03-03-2009, 12:37 PM

Anyway, Mith must have an awfully powerful singing voice considering it managed to knock four pieces off the board... :eek:

Emphasis on the awfully :( ... but wow ... I should not play more often... And Shasta don't be tough on yourself ... it is so hard to balance a game ... modding is much harder than realised so just embrace the divine rights... and this was always going to be demanding because of the sophisticated set up.

Anyway I had a blast... :D

Rikae

03-03-2009, 12:41 PM

I would also just like to register my incredulity that I was never dreamed of by either side. :)

Well, I promised. Even as a baddie, I have some honor. When it suits me.

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-03-2009, 12:53 PM

Well, I promised. Even as a baddie, I have some honor. When it suits me.

And I held to my promise that I'd never dream of you. Never said I wouldn't appreciate the effort of somebody else doing the work for me, though. :cool:

Lariren Shadow

03-03-2009, 01:01 PM

Good game everyone and congratulations Mith!

So I was at least innocent enough for Brinn to triple my voting power...nice. Or it was nothing of the sort and I'm just inflating my own ego with that one. And that now makes sense for the death of Nog.

Fea, did you know I was evil? And I do realize I could just walk over and ask you right now.

If you want smugness from me, let me show you this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=586456&postcount=336) post I made at the end of Day 2. I correctly name Nog, Kath, and Brin as the three gifteds and I name Izzy, Lari, and Rikae as WereCreatures. :cool:

I almost died when I saw that. Literally almost died. And then stopped freaking out so much. Did you guess or what?

Feanor of the Peredhil

03-03-2009, 01:56 PM

Fea, did you know I was evil?

I did once you didn't die properly. :mad:

:)

I thought about not killing you after that, since I didn't really have a grudge against you any more, but I thought it would have been a criminal waste of intelligence to let you slip away when I knew you were vulnerable.

Every time I wasn't sure about something, I shrugged and reminded myself that you all had to die eventually anyway. :cool:

Mithalwen

03-03-2009, 02:22 PM

Good game everyone and congratulations Mith!

Aww it was nothing... really ;)

the phantom

03-03-2009, 03:48 PM

I almost died when I saw that. Literally almost died. And then stopped freaking out so much. Did you guess or what?
I had everyone's posts listed next to their names in a notebook, and every time a certain post made me think something (she knows something, she's nervous, she's paranoid, etc.) I would write a note next to the post. I would also mark any time someone said anything about anyone that, upon death, could be seen as a Seer declaration.

Anyway, the three Wolves I listed (Lari, Izzy, Wilwa) I had flagged for seeming to withold info and looking sneaky and Wolfish. I listed Rikae as the WereBear simply because I thought she was gifted, but was leaning evil for her.

Two of my gifteds (Brin and Nog) were there because they had by far the most number of posts where I had written "Gifted?" next to it. Kath hadn't made as many posts, so she didn't have an overwhelming number of checks next to her name, but as she was my prime Seer suspect I listed her as such.

I threw Fea in as an extra Bishop because I figured she was something but at that point I had no idea what (due to the vague clue that I thought she had left "VIP show").

But yeah. When I made that post those were my best guesses at the roles.

Not bad I'd say.

(as a treat for Sal and Duck, I plan on bringing my notebook to show them how insane I am when playing Werewolf- they'll get a kick out of some of the little side-notes that I wrote)

the phantom

03-03-2009, 03:52 PM

Oh, and just so you know, I enjoy Mith winning so much that I plan on declaring her the victor in every game I mod in the future. :)

Mithalwen

03-03-2009, 04:11 PM

But of course, Phantom, if I win, you win.... :)

Gwathagor

03-03-2009, 07:46 PM

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that Nogrod and I were right about Fea on Day 1...when you guys lynched me...

:p

Mnemosyne

03-03-2009, 07:56 PM

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that Nogrod and I were right about Fea on Day 1...when you guys lynched me...

Yeah, totally didn't notice that when you PUT IT IN YOUR LOCATION...

:p ;) :)

I hope you manage to survive past Day One, Gwath... someday...

Gwathagor

03-03-2009, 08:04 PM

Actually, I more often run into trouble around Day 2 or 3, when I can't survive by simply being inconspicuous. Then something I've said gets blown out of proportion and I get strung up. I usually handle Day One by just trying to avoid drawing attention to myself - but this time I tried to take a stand for something, and look what happened.

Nogrod

03-04-2009, 04:27 PM

I've had just terrible RL the last week and have had no chance to even see how this is going! What a nice mess it all turned around! :)

And by God was I right this time! Too right for my health that is... :rolleyes:

I had Fea and Izzy (I was quite comfortable of their bad intentions) and tp (he just looked foul) on my top list, and Rikae trailing back there in two Days (and just looking back I wrote in the first half of D1 that if I needed to make a shot in the dark Lari would be my top choice...). So it was clear I had to go.

But I mean, sometimes two or three games pass and one gets a frustrating feeling that you can't just tell who's a baddie and who's not and it's just pure guessing, but this kind of game kind of heals that gnawing suspicion and gives one more confidence on the possibility of actually finding the baddies out by reason!

Good work baddies! Although we whites were clearly the underdogs this time. So well fought whites as well!

And a nice concept Shasta! I would have loved to play this more than two Days - but on the other hand I have really been busy RL so it was probably good I died so early.

And congrats to Mith for winning! :)

Mithalwen

03-04-2009, 04:32 PM

And congrats to Mith for winning! :)

A status only attained by standing on the shoulders of giants....

Mithalwen

03-05-2009, 12:22 PM

It is slightly unnerving though - I feel my reality has become completely irrelevant to my identity here and Mithalwen has become an unhoused fea that I no longer have complete control of... perhaps 'twas ever thus....

Kath

03-05-2009, 01:06 PM

You have become a figure of legend Mith! It's a wonderful thing. :D

Brinniel

03-05-2009, 09:13 PM

My all time favorite quote from the game has to be something Brinn had in her Night PM about raising Phantom's voting power:

"...for the first time in his life, the phantom is actually more important than he thinks he is!"
Hehe, indeed. I believe the exact quote was:

Indeed...that's the joy of it. For the first time in history, the phantom is more important than he thinks he is. :D
And it's true. At that early stage of the game, I had no idea about anyone's roles so I was ready to pick just about anyone. I found the idea of picking phantom to be rather amusing. :p That, and I figured he wouldn't get Night killed and probably wouldn't vote me...

I'm sure Shasta was also amused by all my long explanations for each choice. I always find it difficult as a gifted to not have anyone to discuss my decisions with. So instead I just blabber all my thoughts to the mod. :rolleyes:

I actually did save some PMs:

Night 3
Omg, this was so tough. Sorry I'm cutting it a bit a close; I hadn't made a decision until now and I'm still not entirely confident. I admit it'd be so much easier if I could wait until the Day since it'd really suck if one of my choices is killed (especially since the hunter can't use her power yet)...but of course I don't expect you to let me wait that long..

Okay, I decided I want to give voting power to Mnemo. I still can't decide whether she's evil or not, though I'm slightly leaning towards innocent. And anyway, at least I agree with her on some things.

As for the rook, this is much more difficult...particularly because I'm worried whoever I choose will be Night-killed. I'm debating between Sally and Lari. But which one? Gah, I don't know...I keep switching back and forth! *thinks* Hmmm....Sally it is. Though if that doesn't work out, you can always make Lari the rook instead. ; )

-Brinn
Look, I was so convinced about Lari, I almost scried her. Luckily I didn't. I think this was the only Night I didn't pick a baddie...

Night 4
You have no idea how difficult this decision is, especially since I feel like whatever I choose could heavily affect the outcome of the game. To top if off, I'm really bad at figuring out roles, which is why I do better as a werewolf or seer. But anyway, I must make my decision now since I'm sure you'd like at least some time to write the narration. There's a 60% chance I'm wrong on either of these choices, but the best I can do is cross my fingers and hope I'm right (though I'm probably not).

ToDay I'll give voting power to Lari. There's a possibility she's evil but I feel it's more likely she an ordo (and I've also realised she's never even played an ordo before so I rather hope she is). She's made no move towards wanting me dead so far, and I certainly hope she doesn't decide to toMorrow, though you never know...

As for the White Knight, I'll choose to scry Fea. This is a big risk because while I'm sure she's not the seer, I can't exactly say whether she's evil or not. For some reason my logic says that she and tp both aren't evil, though there's really no reason for that. I always worry she's evil, and often I'm wrong. Of course the one time I give her the benefit of the doubt, I'll probably be wrong again. Hmm...well even if she doesn't get successfully scried, at least I can safely assume she is a Black piece of some sort. The worst case scenario is if she's killed toNight, which I doubt, but anything's possible.

So yeah, that's about it. At least I can say I'm not a complete failure as a gifted since I did successfully scry Sally...

-Brinn
Ehm, I'm not sure where I got the idea that both tp and Fea couldn't be evil because soon after I discovered Fea was evil, I seriously started to suspect tp was the cobbler. Hmm...I think what I meant was I didn't think those two were wolves together, but I'm not sure...

Night 5

*has a mental breakdown*

Yeah, I keep changing my mind about those final three. One minute I decide one must be evil therfore the other innocent, next minute I change my mind...

So, I think I'll go with my gut instinct and scry Izzy. Though if she turns out to be the Black Queen, I'll be so peeved! It's totally possible, though I feel most trails lead to her innocence.

*has butterflies*

-Brinn
Yeah, I was just a little stressed out that Night.. I believe another reason I chose Izzy was because I thought her role would be more enlightening...and I wanted to know whether Rikae was bluffing about calling her a baddie or not.