Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread [Archive]

Hansy

02-21-2009, 07:13 AM

Erm. Hello. Nice to know you all, besides those I knew already. [Sally doesn't know me. But I know her... well, her name.]
I'm taking hours writing this post. This is so wrong.

*deep breath*

I can start by introducing myself. You can call me Hansy... it's not that long so it doesn't need to be shortened. Reminds me of what you did to poor Beregond last game. I read the books some time ago. They were fun, but too long to be true. So I don't remember most of it. I liked Aragorn and Legolas (yay I'm so creative!). And I like kittens. You probably figured that out after seeing my avatar.

About the werewolf... well, this is quite a different experience. I took my time reading the previous game... [I skipped Sally's spam show] and I would always agree with Legate. The guy that apparently was wrong all the time. But I liked his reasoning :( I hope you'll forgive me, but I don't think I'll bold names... unless I start writing bigger-than-huge posts and it gets really hard to read. Which I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

Now let's talk about roles. Hi Nerwen. :)

[Random Comment 3: Well, at least this time people aren't roleplaying. I just can't do that.]
[Random Comment 4: The icons below the textbox strangely remind me of Zelda.]

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 08:15 AM

Personally, I can't believe Gandalf agreed to this

Are you sure it isn't Saruman under the guise of Gandalf?

*melts from Mount Doom heat*

wilwarin538

02-21-2009, 08:21 AM

My my my, fiery-mountain-volcano-wizard chess, how wonderful.

So I come on all excited about the 33 replies and hope to do some wonderful analises, but it's all banter :p.

I see some confessions up there, though they appear to be shielded under sarcasm I'll bet that atleast one of them is a baddie. Or they're all bad and it was their plan to "sarcastically" confess right off the bat. Or they're all good just trying to make their ordinary status more interesting. So many possibilities...

Anyways, I'll be heading off to work soon, that gives me the next 6 hours to try and think up some intelligent theories regarding some of the roles. I'll be back as soon as I get home.

Play nicely! :p

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 08:27 AM

On another note, it's interesting to see two new Downers in this game.

So, theres 18 players. 4 gifted. 3 gifted werewolves. 1 Werebear. 1 Cobbler. That leaves 9 ordos.

I think that in this game it is probably going to be more important than ever to kill the bad guys early. The Werewolves (Black Bishop, Black Knight, Black Rook) have an almost 1 in 3 chance of getting a gifted as does the Werebear (Black Queen), and every Night that they don't (unless they get the Cobbler(Black Pawn) or one of the opposing side) the odds of them killing one will increase. And this will be especially bad.

We have more gifteds than usual which is good, but it also means that they are more vulnerable to attack.

As for posts so far, what can I say. Everyone is either innocent, or maybe they know we'd think that and the first 3 really are wolves, or one of them really a wolf and was playing along with it to remove the suspicion from themselves. Or maybe they're all just ordos having fun.

Edit: x-ed- Hey, Wilwa stole my theory!

wilwarin538

02-21-2009, 10:20 AM

No, looks to me like you stole my theory! Though, to be honest, it's not that brilliant of a theory.

One thing I thought of was whether or not the werebear can kill a wolf at Night, or vice-versa?

And then there's this mystery White Queen, who is either going to be of great use to us or, to think a bit outside the box, is completly on her own team. If you think about her opposite the Black Queen, who is on her own team, not really allied with the other Black pieces, could it not be a possibility that the White Queen is similar, and isn't necessarily allied with us White Pawns? Or perhaps the White Queen doesn't even know that's what they are, it might be something only our Mod knows about.

Anyway, just some random thoughts, I find it quite intriguing that there is a mystery role, and can't stop thinking of the possibilities.:eek: But that isn't our focus toDay, I know.

So I will be back in about 5 hours!

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 10:23 AM

So we have three self-proclaimed baddies around? How should we take it?

This situation calls for a citation and some listening to the wisdom of the two Queens speaking there.

"What do you mean by 'If you really are a Queen'? What right have you to call yourself so? You can't be a Queen, you know, till you passed the proper examination. And the sooner we begin, the better."

"I only said 'if'!" poor Alice pleaded in a piteous tone.

The two queens looked at each other, and the Red Queen remarked with a little shudder. "She says she only said 'if'..."

"But she said a great deal more than that!" the White Queen moaned, wringing her hands. "Oh, ever so much more than that!"

"So you did, you know." the Red Queen said to Alice. "Always speak the truth - think before you speak - and write it down afterwards."

"I'm sure I didn't mean..." Alice was beginning, but the Red Queen interrupted her impatiently.

"That's just what I complain of! You should have meant! What do you suppose is the use of a child without any meaning? Even a joke should have some meaning."

I couldn't put it better...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-21-2009, 10:29 AM

Throwing a die? No, it was a free choice. Nerwen stood before her, the one who had attempted to instigate actual discussion. Not the frivolous, not the as-yet-invisible, but the one piece of sense. See what follows.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 10:49 AM

Well then. I feel cheerful this morning. Phantom, I completely agree with everything you've said about Lando. He absolutely must survive.

Oh, and Han shot first. Just mentioning...

Here and gone in a flash!

Stick shift here I come!

PS: zomg, I've just realized that if Lommy was playing, 'Han shot first' could be seen as a clue! If only...

[/silly]

I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.

Vote Aimè, lest our torrid romantic history come back to haunt me now, as I dangle over Doom itself!

[/silly for real this time]

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:02 AM

I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.
Now that sounds like a good idea! I grow weary of you being lynched- usually always as an innocent. Perhaps if we made it our strategy to kill your attackers this game then you would survive.
clearly a pawn trying to get to the other side of the board by making himself look important
But... but I am important... My mom says so...

*sulks* :(

Rikae

02-21-2009, 11:07 AM

There is a disturbance in the force....

Sally made a HP reference on the 'Downs! :eek: (So that's why I couldn't access the site this morning).

Well, one thing is clear: we don't have 9 white pawns. This is a chess game, so we have 8... and 8 black pawns, which means there are more people in this game than we think.

++Boro

++Mac

++Roa

++SPaM

++TGWBS

++Morm

++Diamond18

++Mith

Well, that takes care of that.

Looking at the rules of chess, it would make sense for the white queen to be some sort of multi-gifted, although that would unbalance the game too much, I suppose (perhaps not, though, if the gifted wolves can communicate with each other - that would give them quite an edge). Shame there aren't kings in this game.... lynch the right person, and instantly win. :D

Well, looking over the posts, I see some things that look disturbingly like the last game -
1) Nerwen looking suspicious (vague, safe, and making strange half-accusations). I think mods tend not to make people wolves twice in a row (although there have been notable exceptions), but I vowed to trust my instincts after the last game. I will look at her more closely, at least.

2) Nogrod fixating on banter. Please, not again (although the quote does express the point very nicely). I really see nothing odd about these so-called "confessions" - in fact, I'll add one of my own: I am the wookie.

3) A couple newbies (and a veteran player I haven't encountered before - Wilwa). Of course, I extend the same courtesy as last game - I won't vote for a newbie on Day 1. Day 2 and onward, though, no special treatment.

EDIT: X'd with Fea and my son.

Rikae

02-21-2009, 11:15 AM

I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.

Don't worry, I won't hurt you if you don't hurt me. ;):p
(or maybe I won't dream you if you don't dream me.... take your pick)

*throws a wrench in the works and runs away laughing*

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Okay, some halfway serious thoughts early on...

I've never been less afraid of the Werewolves.

Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead).

On the other hand, our gifteds are terrified of being discovered. Every night the Werewolves will either find a gifted or will be able to rule someone out- someone who they will likely attempt to keep alive during the days from then on as it will improve their nightly killing odds. The Wolf-Seer truly adds an interesting twist to this thing.

All of the pawns want the Werebear dead. The gifteds want the Black Bishop dead. Yeah, I guess the gifteds would probably table their desires if a chance to get rid of the Black Queen came up, as it would cut the night kills immediatley, but how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Anyway, just thinking about roles out loud here.
Shame there aren't kings in this game.... lynch the right person, and instantly win. :D
Ha ha! Now that would be interesting.
I am the wookie.
What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.

Mithalwen

02-21-2009, 11:33 AM

Well, one thing is clear: we don't have 9 white pawns. This is a chess game, so we have 8... and 8 black pawns, which means there are more people in this game than we think.
....
++Mith

Well, that takes care of that.

:D :Merisu:

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 11:38 AM

Mith! Go invisible!

Rikae

02-21-2009, 11:39 AM

Hmm, did Shasta even tell us whose side the cobbler is on? The werebear, the wolves, or any/all of them? I don't suppose it matters much (especially since the baddies won't actually be rivals until late in the game, most likely), but it would still be good to know. (Shasta? Shasta...?)

Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead)

That kind of talk is liable to get you night killed! Or is that what you want? *shuts up*

What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.
Having Mac as a father would explain it, too.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 11:44 AM

BAD WOLF! BAD WOLF!

Who reference?

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:49 AM

That kind of talk is liable to get you night killed! Or is that what you want? *shuts up*
Analyzing the roles will get me Night-killed? Well, maybe by the WereBear, but not the Wolves. You see, I'm being incredibly self-centered and assuming that the Black Bishop dreamed of me already thus making me safe from them.

But no, I'm not wanting to be Night-killed. Not this early. I've been anticipating this for a couple weeks, and I'm not ready to exit just yet. I'd say starting on Day 3 I'll really start rocking the boat, and will make two or three extremely accurate accusations.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 11:51 AM

Okay, some halfway serious thoughts early on...

I've never been less afraid of the Werewolves.

Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead).

On the other hand, our gifteds are terrified of being discovered. Every night the Werewolves will either find a gifted or will be able to rule someone out- someone who they will likely attempt to keep alive during the days from then on as it will improve their nightly killing odds. The Wolf-Seer truly adds an interesting twist to this thing.

All of the pawns want the Werebear dead. The gifteds want the Black Bishop dead. Yeah, I guess the gifteds would probably table their desires if a chance to get rid of the Black Queen came up, as it would cut the night kills immediatley, but how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Anyway, just thinking about roles out loud here.

Ha ha! Now that would be interesting.

What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.

Oh, and there's more. They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks. The Black Bishop can dream of her, leave some clues and basically blackmail them into helping the team's job. If by any chance they're attacked by the Queen, she is as good as dead, and they can just attack her back - and if she happens to kill the Hunter, he will probably be hunting her, and kill her.

Now, one question for the host. If the Black Bishop dreams of the Black Pawn, will it turn like a Black Pawn? Or instead, like a White Pawn?

Rikae

02-21-2009, 11:59 AM

Analyzing the roles will get me Night-killed? Well, maybe by the WereBear, but not the Wolves. You see, I'm being incredibly self-centered and assuming that the Black Bishop dreamed of me already thus making me safe from them.

No, not analyzing the roles... but never you mind that. I think I see what you're driving at now.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 12:06 PM

I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.

Yaaaaay lynch Fea time! The best part of waking up is lynched Fea in your cup! :p

...Just thought about that. Ew. I shouldn't be allowed to post before breakfast. All right I'm gonna go eat and I'll be back to post something productive. *saultes*

the phantom

02-21-2009, 12:15 PM

Oh, and there's more. They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks.
I forgot to talk about that- the idea of the Black pieces being at war with each other. Or not. Whatever it is they decide is the highest priority.

As far as I am concerned, were I a Wolf I would definitely not try to kill the Bear, but I would like to know who he is so that I could bump him off towards the end if necessary. That extra kill each night cuts the village down so quickly. Surely you can't pass that up. A Day 1 or Night 2 WereBear death would likely lead to a White Christmas. Er, victory.

My take on the Bear killing the Wolves- I would definitely try and kill Wolves once a certain point in the game had been reached. What point, you ask?

Well, if we're on Night 4 and no Wolves have died, I would say it's time to thin them a bit. But the Bear wouldn't want to attack them sooner as it might cause them to be wiped out too early, and he would lose their nightly kill.

However, perhaps the Bear will think it more important to completely control the night and end the threat of being slain at night? I don't know....

If that is the case, he will gun for the WereWolves from the start and will kinda sorta be an ally for us. But then again, if he cannot claim victory himself, is not the slaughter of the village his next greatest desire? Surely the Werebeasts are all servants of destruction, and would rather see evil win than good, even if they don't live to see it. If that is the method adopted by the WereWolves and WereBear, then they will be trying to avoid each other.

Though that is no easy task, for if the Werebeasts are able to identify each other with any success, one would think that the village would be able to do the same. So how possible to coordinate is it really? It almost seems silly to try. You could try and do the opposite and possibly do just as well.

Everywhere you look- interesting scenarios and layers of strategy. I love this set up! :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-21-2009, 12:17 PM

This version is not so different that it renders the first day's action useful until the second day. That being so, likely behaviour should by now have been considered by hunting parties, and now I for one wait to see who falls into those devious patterns.

Is binn gach eun 'na dhoire fhein.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 12:24 PM

I would say the Black Queen HAS to kill the Black Bishop, for her own safety. Her life is doomed from the point the Black Bishop finds her - if he does, sooner or later, the Werebear will die. The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents - actually, I just thought it can't happen, because if we tell the Queen who she kills, the Black Knight can just protect their target. Unless they're already dead.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 12:31 PM

Perhaps if we made it our strategy to kill your attackers this game then you would survive.

Pure brilliance.

(or maybe I won't dream you if you don't dream me.... take your pick)

I can give you my dead honest word that I will not be dreaming of you. :)

that explains all the shaving I have to do.

Oh my.

The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents

I don't understand what you mean. The Black Queen is on xer own team. Surely xe wouldn't let the good guys boss xer around?

Or did I miss something about the roles?

*scurries off to check admin thread*

Hansy

02-21-2009, 12:32 PM

Of course it's not good for her, but if she's given the choice between being executed and helping the innocents, what would she go for?

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 12:35 PM

Of course it's not good for her, but if she's given the choice between being executed and helping the innocents, what would she go for?

Given that werebears are evil, I'd assume xe'd pick evil.

So let me get this straight: the White Bishop can only PM the other gifteds after xe's dreamed of them?

Hansy

02-21-2009, 12:44 PM

Given that werebears are evil, I'd assume xe'd pick evil.

So let me get this straight: the White Bishop can only PM the other gifteds after xe's dreamed of them?

They're a different evil than the three gifteds; either way, they have no choice, really. They can rebel against the innocents, trying to help the "wolf" team - but a win for the wolves is not a win for the werebear.

And I thought PM conversation was banned here... :confused: but then what stops the Black Bishop (or a teammate) from PMing their findings and misleading them?

Rikae

02-21-2009, 12:47 PM

Hansy - that wouldn't work. A revealed werebear has no reason to bother trying to stay alive - threatening xem with lynching will do no good, the village can't control the werebear's kills. For that matter, the wolves can't, either. Once the werebear is known, xe is as good as dead, and xe knows it.

A werebear has only won, to my knowledge, once in werewolf history - and had to impersonate a gifted who wasn't in the game to do so. Of course, with the mysterious "white queen" role, that's a possibility for this bear, too, although it takes more than a little luck to make it work We should be very cautious about any "white queen" who reveals, at any rate.

Eomer's new persona is interesting... he was always cryptic and condensed, but seems to have increased the level of compression and encryption. The prejudice against day ones seems to remain intact, though. :D

Has everyone posted by now? Perhaps I'll try making a list (I may even start another spreadsheet) Day 1's honor has been attacked, it must be defended...

Rikae

02-21-2009, 12:55 PM

I can give you my dead honest word that I will not be dreaming of you. :)

And I do likewise. :)

And I thought PM conversation was banned here... :confused: but then what stops the Black Bishop (or a teammate) from PMing their findings and misleading them?

The rules of the game. PM'ing is only allowed between players under the circumstances specified by the mod. Normally, the wolves can PM each other during the night phase, and sometimes gifteds are given permission to PM as well, when certain conditions are met.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 12:55 PM

It would work if they want to try second place instead of third, if they care. And if numbers are tight enough, they actually might get a shot at winning... but we don't want that :p so in that case there was no possible deal.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 01:00 PM

Yeah, the wolves can PM each other, but in a game like this I don't think it would be fair for the Black Bishop to let the White Bishop PM the other innocent roles, as it's cutting them out on a possible strategy of pretending to be the White Bishop - and that actually applies to other games, just like in last one... now I'm thinking of what chaos would happen if the Cobbler decided to PM guess the Ranger or something :eek:

Rikae

02-21-2009, 01:04 PM

What do you mean, "PM guess"?

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 01:04 PM

phantom's analysis of wolf/bear dynamics seems mostly sound. Which doesn't mean anything.

The huge thing about phantom is that he sounds basically the same whether he's innocent or not. He always sounds smart and reasonable, which makes him really really dangerous to whatever side is opposite him. So he often gets Night-killed fairly early in the game. If he doesn't, he's usually evil: (phantom: "I don't understand why I haven't gotten killed yet! Probably they're hoping to waste a day-lynch on me..." *cackles madly*).

So if phantom is still alive, especially with this double-kill system we've got, by Day 4 I say we lynch him.

Other Old Player dynamics: if everyone suspects Fea, she's innocent.

If nobody suspects Fea, she's guilty.

Now, these theories were based on when these were all still young and callow players like me (though I don't think phantom has changed much), so they ought to be taken with a grain of salt.

But I'm still going to keep them in mind as the game goes on.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 01:12 PM

What do you mean, "PM guess"?

I meant that they could talk to the ranger saying they were the seer. Ignore the fact that it would require massive amounts of skill/luck to ever work, it was a really random thought, but my point is that if you're allowing the gifteds and only the gifteds to PM each other (again, besides wolf team), they're proving their roles to each other, and that kind of goes against the spirit of the game... "informed minority against uninformed majority", if the gifteds know each other for sure, they are just like a wolf team, with the advantage of having lots of plain innocents on their side, and the disadvantage of not having a night kill.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 01:15 PM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would be breaking the rules.

Though if it results in modfire for the baddies, I'm all for it. ^_^

Hansy

02-21-2009, 01:19 PM

Nemo [?!], you aren't new here, are you? :p

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 01:21 PM

First visited the main site in '01; first visited the forum in '03; became addicted when WWII was on.

*doffs cap*

At your service and your family's.

And by the way, the nick's still in a state of flux, so you can call me whatever until something better sticks. (I'm not a fan of the -o names, being female)

satansaloser2005

02-21-2009, 01:22 PM

Nemo [?!], you aren't new here, are you? :p

I wonder how much she would kill me if I inserted a joke from a certain Disney movie here....hmmmm.....Ah, well, I'll take the risk.

If we can't find a baddie within the first couple Days, we shouldn't fret. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim!

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 01:23 PM

If we can't find a baddie within the first couple Days, we shouldn't fret. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim!

Yeah, remember that narration when a duck ended up ripping out someone's heart?

satansaloser2005

02-21-2009, 01:31 PM

I really am rather concerned about the various baddies though. I need to take a better look to make sure I understand what they all can do, but basically we have gifted baddies who have the power to do....well a few different things between them. Fortunately, at least if I'm not mistaken, our (that is, the good) gifteds can do the same sorts of things, so while we're in big trouble I think as long as we've got talented gifteds we should be okay.

Although we need to kill the Black Queen post haste.

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 02:00 PM

Well then. I feel cheerful this morning. Phantom, I completely agree with everything you've said about Lando. He absolutely must survive.

Oh, and Han shot first. Just mentioning...

I agree with the whole Lando thing. And I am so geekying myself out on this thread already. We've had HP and Star Wars references, my inner fangirl if pleased.

Yaaaaay lynch Fea time! The best part of waking up is lynched Fea in your cup! :p

You have no idea how much I laughed at that. And silly Mira(I like that one best) we don't lynch Fea till Day 3. Or at least that's how its been playing out...

If that is the case, he will gun for the WereWolves from the start and will kinda sorta be an ally for us. But then again, if he cannot claim victory himself, is not the slaughter of the village his next greatest desire? Surely the Werebeasts are all servants of destruction, and would rather see evil win than good, even if they don't live to see it. If that is the method adopted by the WereWolves and WereBear, then they will be trying to avoid each other.

Though that is no easy task, for if the Werebeasts are able to identify each other with any success, one would think that the village would be able to do the same. So how possible to coordinate is it really? It almost seems silly to try. You could try and do the opposite and possibly do just as well.

I can't fully remember why I quoted you here except maybe to add this: the Black Queen wins if all innocents and Wolves are gone right? So then the Bear might want to keep more of the Wolves alive to be able to keep getting the double Night kill of innocents.

As for the Werebeasts identifying each other: if the Black Bishop, Rook, and Knight find out who the Black Queen is and vis versa what happens if the Black Rook is hunting the Black Queen and the Black Queen kills the Rook? Does that mean that they both die because the Queen was the hunted? Is that possible?

I meant that they could talk to the ranger saying they were the seer. Ignore the fact that it would require massive amounts of skill/luck to ever work, it was a really random thought, but my point is that if you're allowing the gifteds and only the gifteds to PM each other (again, besides wolf team), they're proving their roles to each other, and that kind of goes against the spirit of the game... "informed minority against uninformed majority", if the gifteds know each other for sure, they are just like a wolf team, with the advantage of having lots of plain innocents on their side, and the disadvantage of not having a night kill.

It's not really a disadvantage to the innocents. The Seer then gets to share with the Ranger what they know. The Ranger can then really easily protect innocents instead of it being a shot in the dark. Also then they work together to win and keep innocents alive. So really, after the Seer dreams of one of the other innocent gifteds and gets to talk with them its actually better for us. We get extra protection and all that fun stuff.

As for my two cents on the roles: I wish I knew what the White Queen was. Maybe xim(though I really want to say "she") is immune to Werekills. That would make sense, I guess.

As for the Black Queen, I do agree with what I think the phantom about getting xim earlier, mostly to take out the whole two kills a Night aspect.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 02:08 PM

phantom's analysis of wolf/bear dynamics seems mostly sound. Which doesn't mean anything.
Heh heh... not really. ;)
The huge thing about phantom is that he sounds basically the same whether he's innocent or not. He always sounds smart and reasonable, which makes him really really dangerous to whatever side is opposite him. So he often gets Night-killed fairly early in the game. If he doesn't, he's usually evil: (phantom: "I don't understand why I haven't gotten killed yet! Probably they're hoping to waste a day-lynch on me..." *cackles madly*).

So if phantom is still alive, especially with this double-kill system we've got, by Day 4 I say we lynch him.
I mostly agree with that. I'm often dead by then, so honestly I would love to survive until Day 4 even if it meant getting lynched then.
if everyone suspects Fea, she's innocent.
I agree. On that note, I think I speak for everyone when I say Fea is looking very very suspicious.

And I just thought I'd mention that I like how Hansy thinks. Very underhanded ideas and such... I love that.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 02:17 PM

Hansy must be the best cobbler seen yet! :rolleyes:

But really - and correct me if I'm wrong - isn't this in the end quite straighforward as the setting goes?

A team of baddies who are quite like ordinary werewolves eg. they PM during the Night and kill. They just have gifts because they can also be attacked at Night (by the Black Queen - and hopefully also by the White Queen).

A werebear eg. the Black Queen working Solo ;) like in any werecreature-game eg. independently from the baddie-team trying to win it on her own in the end.

A cobbler who generally wishes for the bad one's to win but has no special knowledge about the baddies.

The baddie team and the Black Queen would probably generally hope the other side to live at least a few Days to keep on harvesting goodies at the pace of 2/Night but sooner or later they (especially the trio) will start thinking exactly the opposite and would love to get the Black Queen killed.

What comes to the good gifteds they seem to have one possible advantage and that is that they can PM as soon as they have been dreamt of by the Bishop. Looking at the dire straits we're in with the number of baddies and kills per Night I don't think that is helping us too much as it is more than probable they never get to the point of discussing things all three of them. So even if one could say they are like a wolf team (they might become functioning like one at some stage of the game creating shared strategies and exchanging views confidently) it still remains the work of us pawns to carry the day - with their help if they can provide it. So Hansy: no this in not a game of three gifteds against three bad-gifteds (with an extra-spice of a Black Queen) but we all need to play: it's our votes that count and our decisions - and the sheer numbers of our observing eyes and minds...

Anyway, let's not start "PM-guessing" anyone, right? If something would be against the spirit of the game then that would. :confused:

EDIT: X'd with Lari & tp + fixed a typo

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 02:23 PM

One thing I thought of was whether or not the werebear can kill a wolf at Night, or vice-versa?

I think that they probably could, but I'm not sure. In the last game I played the werebear wasn't a proper werebear and couldn't kill at night, but I think that logically a bear should be able to overpower a wolf. And also a wolf pack could overpower a bear. So I don't think we need to worry about whether they can kill each other.

They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks. The Black Bishop can dream of her, leave some clues and basically blackmail them into helping the team's job.
Who is them? Is it the wolves? If the wolves work as a team, then I don't think that there needs to be any blackmailing. Or is that a wolvish slip? *dun! dun! dun!*

edit:x-ed a lot

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 02:28 PM

The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents - actually, I just thought it can't happen, because if we tell the Queen who she kills, the Black Knight can just protect their target. Unless they're already dead.
How would that work? The wolves would killer xer immediately.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 02:31 PM

I think Hansy was talking about the Werewolf team dreaming of the Queen - then somehow blackmailing her to do their bidding; lest they lead her to her death.

*Is here*

x'd with Eonwe.

Rikae

02-21-2009, 02:32 PM

Not to mention that there is no second place in werewolf.

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 02:34 PM

I think Hansy was talking about the Werewolf team dreaming of the Queen - then somehow blackmailing her to do their bidding; lest they lead her to her death.

That sort of makes sense, but then wouldn't the Black Queen just start killing the Wolves instead. And how could they blackmail the Black Queen? Say the Black Rook is hunting xem? Interesting point though, but since the Black Queen is on xyr there is no reason to play nice with the Wolves. The Wolves could try to get the Black Queen lynched though.

Edit: x-posted with Rikea and fix typo of gender neutral.

Rikae

02-21-2009, 02:43 PM

I believe it is -

he, she, xe
his, her, xyr
him, her, xem

But I didn't double check, so I may be wrong.

EDIT - handy mnemonic device - just think of the singular 'they'. They/xe, their/xyr, them/xem.

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 02:46 PM

Thanks, I'll change it. Really I actually sat here trying to remember what it was before making it up.:rolleyes:

Hansy

02-21-2009, 02:46 PM

The wolves have their nightkill too. it's a risky move, but the reward would be huge: controlling two kills a night, making sure their players aren't going to be incriminated. Or even better, making the Black Queen look bad, so that the innocents focus their attention on her.

@Nogrod: I don't plan to do such thing if I ever get a cobbler role, don't worry. ;) just brainstorming here. :D

@Eonwe: Them = she = black queen.

...don't ask how my use of pronouns got like that. :(

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 02:53 PM

You have no idea how much I laughed at that. And silly Mira(I like that one best) we don't lynch Fea till Day 3. Or at least that's how its been playing out...
I thought we lynch her fresh on Monday.:rolleyes::p That's toMorrow.

As for my two cents on the roles: I wish I knew what the White Queen was. Maybe xim(though I really want to say "she") is immune to Werekills. That would make sense, I guess.

Or maybe xe gets a Night kill that only dies if they're evil, or maybe xe's a hunter-seer combo, or maybe xe's vote also counts at the end of the Day if the votee is evil, or- the possibilities are endless....

edit: internet blip. x-ed since #81

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 02:56 PM

I thought we lynch her fresh on Monday. That's toMorrow.

Oh, a Day ahead of schedule now.

Or maybe xe gets a Night kill that only dies if they're evil, or maybe xe's a hunter-seer combo, or maybe xe's vote also counts at the end of the Day if the votee is evil, or- the possibilities are endless....

Oh those are interesting options. I had a thought that maybe xe gets to try to turn someone good if they are evil then realized that was a really silly thought and would never work. Because then it would be easy to find the other two Wolves. Well there goes that brilliant idea...which was more like a horrible one.

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 02:59 PM

Oh those are interesting options. I had a thought that maybe xe gets to try to turn someone good if they are evil then realized that was a really silly thought and would never work. Because then it would be easy to find the other two Wolves. Well there goes that brilliant idea...which was more like a horrible one.

No... that's DW (Dueling Wizards).

But in that there are two that can do that, so it balances out.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 03:00 PM

They just have gifts because they can also be attacked at Night (by the Black Queen - and hopefully also by the White Queen).
Yes, I too have been wondering what in the world the White Queen does. Attacking the Werewolves certainly, but in what way? I suppose we'll have to wait and see. If something odd happens, we can begin making decent guesses.

And about the business of the White Gifteds being able to PM if the Bishop spots them... that sort of puts Pawns in a tricky situation. What I mean is, it would obviously be great if the Bishop, Knight, and Rook were able to speak with each other, therefore a Pawn might think it is in the best interest of the game to do everything possible to avoid a dream (so it isn't wasted on them).

But at the same time, Gifteds can prove themselves to some extent, while a Pawn cannot. Late in the game, would you rather have a Seer-dreamed Knight, or a Seer-dreamed Pawn plus a Knight reveal with good supporting evidence? Either way you get a known non-Beast, but the second way you gain the advantage of knowing two people not to vote for.

So really, dreaming of a Pawn is certainly not a great loss from an odds perspective. Though the Bishop being able to tell the Rook exactly who not to hunt and the Knight precisely who to protect does seem to be rather powerful.

So what to do about it? Usually when I am not evil I desperately want to be dreamed of so that I can be trusted, and so that the Wolves will be forced to kill me (I like to exit before the end-game, I hate the pressure of the last couple days, I'd rather be dead at that point). But under this set up a Pawn is tempted to be less selfish and try to avoid the Bishop dream so that it can be used on a better target (either Black piece or White Gifted).

But if someone is obviously trying to avoid being dreamed of (or asks not to be dreamed of)- that looks ridiculously suspicious, and might lead to lynching! And an innocent who knowingly places himself at the front of the lynch line is certainly not doing his part to lynch Werecreatures.

So what we're left with is a scenario in which there is no correct answer for behavior. Not that there ever is just one answer. It's just that this time both choices are so obviously flawed.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 03:14 PM

I find you not liking the pressure of the end game (as a non evil) ... an odd one phantom.
There fore, I think it would be fun to see you sweat it out once. xD

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?

the phantom

02-21-2009, 03:21 PM

There fore, I think it would be fun to see you sweat it out once.
I did have to do that once. In Fea's blind luck game. It was me, SPM, and Mith left on the final day. And while it was amazing, memorable, fun to read, and we ended up winning, it is not something I look forward to doing again. I swear- if it looks like things are headed that way, I will start acting as suspiciously as possible just so I don't have to go through that nail-biting again. :D
In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
I agree that at this point it doesn't get us anywhere. But if something unexplained happens at any point, then I would say that it should be discussed, for if we can perhaps get a bead on the way the role works, we can factor it into our plans for impacting the village.

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 03:24 PM

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
Not much, but it's as a good a thing as any to talk about on Day 1.

We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?
It's probably better not to say even if you do work it out, as then it will give the baddies (or evilies as you call them) more of a chance to find xer (or is the correct term xem?)

edit: x-ed wid tp

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 03:27 PM

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?

Maybe little to nothing now, but we may be able to get some clues by how night narrations play out. I, for one, would love her to have some sort of ranger-type capacity with this whole "double kill" thing...

But how much purpose is there in explanation? Dwell too much on it and we either look like baddies (except, baddies should only speculate to one another and not in-game) or we give the baddies ideas.

The "focus on the bear, focus on the wolf" thing is a bit of a problem. The more difficult one has much higher rewards; the one that won't pay off as much is easier to manage. So really it's better to keep both in mind and not focus on one to the exclusion of the other. The wolves would love to have us focus on the bear, because we're hunting in the haystack for needles. Less pressure on them. So even though it'd be GREAT to have the bear, let's not focus on her to exclusion. (Not that anyone was going to do that, but still.) I'd rather put all my effort on the wolves; if we catch the bear, well, great.

Also, remember that the bear is JUST as clueless as we are (at the moment); in trying to kill an innocent during this early "better cooperate with the wolves" phase she may end up killing one by accident/on purpose. Whereas the wolves have their own seer.

Rikae

02-21-2009, 03:40 PM

What you said about the bear and wolves is sensible enough, Mnemi, but this is something that has been bugging me for a while in werewolf games, and I might as well mention it now -
there is absolutely no point in telling people what they should or should not focus on, especially before they've even started focusing on it.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 03:42 PM

Yes, because they just end up focusing on me.

So really... pointless to make suggestions.

:D

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 03:54 PM

It doesn't count if you are jumping up and down, waving your arms about - phantom. xD

wilwarin538

02-21-2009, 03:57 PM

Just to let you all know that I am around and have read almost everything that's been said. Don't have as much time now to say much, but I'm happy that the banter is over! :p

I'll be back in about 6 hours, and I'll post a longish post about my thoughts on everyone, and depending on whether voting has started or not, I will probably vote.

Be prepared for me to bandwagon, there are so many players in this game I'm not familiar with so until we get into Day 2 it will be tough for me to get a read on some of you. Just to warn you ahead of time so that it isn't held against me next Day. ;):D

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 03:57 PM

Shhhh! No talking to the phantom.

He hasn't been behaving himself, so we have to pretend he's not here.

There's a reason he's in that paper cage.

edit: x-ed with wilwa

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 04:03 PM

*throws a wrench in the works and runs away laughing*

I just read that as "*throws a wench in the works...*
I blame Sally for this (see post #4 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=585878&postcount=4) for more info).

edit: correction and link. No x-posting sadly.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 04:08 PM

Good to see you again Wilwa. I remember that it was you who hosted one of the best Werewolf games ever. ;)
It doesn't count if you are jumping up and down, waving your arms about
Oh, right.

*tries to hold perfectly still*

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 04:18 PM

there is absolutely no point in telling people what they should or should not focus on, especially before they've even started focusing on it.

how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Although we need to kill the Black Queen post haste.

Maybe I misread the quotes above, but people already have started focusing. My post was supposed to be in response to that.

And to (publicly, at least) inform people of how I was going to try to focus myself.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 04:37 PM

I have to peace out, so here's my early vote:

eenie meenie miny

++Hansy

Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.

Durelin

02-21-2009, 04:39 PM

I'm afraid I have a party to go to, so I will be posting and running here... I will be around more after toDay, promise. Unless something goes terribly wrong. I'm a realist.

And of course Han shot first - I don't get why the heck it matters. All it proves is that he's quicker to the draw and Greedo isn't that horrible of a shot.

Anyway...there's already a few people I'd like to get rid of just for the sake of being rid of them, but part of my beef with werewolf is when people simply play favorites...so I'm going to go for as random as possible here.

++Sally

Just looking at who has posted, anyway, I picked out her on some sort of gut-reaction thing. The typical excuse. It's like pleading the 5th...my stomach told me to do it!

Really I quite enjoy your presence, my dear, but...

See you all tomorrow...quite sorry, I really will have more time (if y'all will let me...) after this. Today I happen to have basically none.

Edit: Fea, I have a feeling you and I will be getting along better in this game...I came so close to voting one of the newbies for the sake of it...hmm, perhaps that means you are evil this time (though I didn't actuallly think you were at least by the end of that fateful day for me...but I'll shush, no relevance here). :p

Eönwë

02-21-2009, 04:55 PM

Well.... no-one posted anything and then 2 posts come at once. They don't really say much (or help me choose), so I'll just go for a semi-random vote:

++Gwath

Because his 2 posts said nothing at all relevant.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 05:07 PM

The vote-

Kath ++Nerwy
Fea ++Hansy
D'lin ++Sally
Steve ++Gwathy

the phantom

02-21-2009, 05:08 PM

I'm leaving soon for an evening activity, but I shall be around after that up until the deadline.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 05:12 PM

The wolves would love to have us focus on the bear, because we're hunting in the haystack for needles. Less pressure on them. So even though it'd be GREAT to have the bear, let's not focus on her to exclusion. (Not that anyone was going to do that, but still.) I'd rather put all my effort on the wolves; if we catch the bear, well, great.How do you focus on the Black Queen at the moment? If you have an idea please share... "That person looks like she's bit of a loner?" :)

If the baddies do not make some quite serious mistakes toDay we can still get one, but basically only with luck. I'm afraid that's all there is to hope for. But surely the more people discuss the more material there is to find a mistake from - or more chances for someone to blunder with a reaction, a tone, a stance or an attitude. So I do share Rikae's stance that Day1's can be productive not only afterwards but already on Day1. I have now some time to go back to the thread and try to see if there is anything that could help...

Rikae

02-21-2009, 05:13 PM

Ditto what tp said.

I'm leaning toward voting for Nerwen, Izzy, or Steve. The first for reasons mentioned before, the second for overly safe, insubstantial posting, or the thir for a more complex set of wolvish behaviors I'll attempt to explain on my return, if I'm not too tired.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 05:30 PM

How do you focus on the Black Queen at the moment?

You don't; that was my point. It was my attempt to respond intellectually to the "We need to get the Black Queen soon!" remark made by sally above. I don't even know how we can get the Black Queen at endgame...

If I'd known it'd create that much fuss, I'd just have quoted her and replied, "How?!?"

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 06:13 PM

Okay. Page1 – some thoughts…

The American opening was fun but quite an unrewarding read. Mainly banter and only a few oddballs one could interpret any possible way (a baddie trying to look like posting as innocent, a goodie slipping her/his position; a goodie trying to be helpful, a baddie trying to look like being helpful, a goodie having fun, a baddie gambling etc.).

Something in Mnemo’s way of talking bothers me even if I can’t quite pinpoint it. It's about the picking of the subjects or POVs or something. I need to look at her posting closer as I get there. She’s clearly intelligent but I’m a bit concerned about her loyalties. Anyway I wouldn’t like to lose a bright innocent early on unless we really have some grounds of suspicion. There should be better candidates toDay.

And tp then? Let’s leave him to the baddies to decide. If he keeps living Day after Day we’ll lynch him. He’s good to have around if he’s a goodie so let’s not rush with him.

Sally looks like she always looks. Sadly she does that also when she’s a baddie. So nothing to say on her but the usual uneasiness.

Brinn comes in and posts – nothing of any special interest; a short banter, a few reasonable points about the general mechanics of the game, slight whining that it’s late and her brain doesn’t work… Perfectly innocent sounding and therefore all alarms should be on as it’s Brinn!

Eomer looks cryptic but speaks sense. I see nothing alarming in Nerwen right now either although I might protest about the low input, but then again there's her timezone… But surely she should be more verbiose when she comes in the next time.

Then Kath’s post is just downright terrible. I could consider voting her just on principle for that. I do understand there was little to say at that time of the Day but I’m more concerned with the way she presents her decision (and as Eomer correctly notes – it is not random but it is a choice whatever Kath tries to say). Her reason for voting Nerwen is “because she was the last person to post before me”. After that she goes on to “add some thoughts in even though there's nothing to go on” and makes a comment on everyone who had posted before her – also making points like “definitely evil” (Sally) or “I think innocent, therefore guilty” (Brinn).

Now when one is innocent – and especially when one is forced to vote early as an innocent – one should really feel the burden of one’s choice and think about it carefully (early votes generate bandwagons later on quite easily). But Kath proclaims it’s random and then still feels the need to add all those added thoughts on people which include more suspicion her vote stands with… So she feels a need to underline the randomness of her vote? If she's innocent that's irresponsible behaviour - and if not, then the sooner we lynch her the better.

These are feelings & thoughts based on the first page. I will read forwards...

EDIT: x'd with Mnemo - point taken, sorry to have read you incorrectly. Your answer makes sense.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-21-2009, 06:18 PM

Exudes a sense of delayed reactions. First part of the day is the time, if indeed there is a time - something to be doubted -, to repeat the fact that there are gifted allies and enemies in the game, and that necessity dictates our discovery of one of those enemies. Frivolous, for sure, but in the least game-related: an acceptably lazy first post. Her first few posts, alas, were empty.

And then she sought something to say. Too eager to show herself.

Not the only one, it's true.

Fialachd don fhogarrach, 's cnaimhean briste don eucorach!

++SATANSALOSER2005

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 06:22 PM

Bee Tee Dubs, sally leaves her regrets that she shall not be able to post until much later this evening, as she has come across a patch of unexpected!internet loss.

I say we lynch 'er in 'er absence. ;)

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 06:49 PM

Page 2

After some continued banter mainly by Fea, tp and Rikae it becomes the Hansy-show with all her wild theories and everyone joining them. The little exceptions seem to be some posts by Rikae & tp who actually try to make some points in the middle of all that. But one page nicely spent to some wild theories and banter. Now that is something the baddies benefit from as I at least am not going to delve into those discussions in great detail a 2.30AM that it is here right now. So Hansy really could be our cobbler and an efficient one as well diverting the discussion… or then one/some of those joining the discussion and furthering it were just having a good time with the distraction that suited their purposes.

Mirandir’s and Gwath’s appearances are just awful. Which means: nothing. If one of you is a baddie and you both get through Day1 with that effort we deserve to lose this game. Really. We might just as well surrender right now.

Page 3

Wilva’s “be prepared for me to bandwagon” is just odd pre-empting of what’s possibly to come.

Eönwë is an enigma to me right now. Somehow he shows a continuous presence and always has something to say – but all is a bit indefinitive or overly general. I could say the same about Lari.

Hey, we need to start suspecting people as we have a lynch ahead and it's better to come to it with some actual ideas than just come and see who will get the random short-stick this time! We need suspicions and reactions to those suspicions – otherwise the choice will be totally blind. Yes, when you suspect someone you put yourself into the firing line as well but that’s what we need to do to get this going.

Anyway. I haven't touched on the votes yet but will do that on the next post.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 06:50 PM

Hey, I'm reading. Give me a minute or two.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 06:54 PM

I was going to say that I don't think Sally is evil, but then read that she's having internet problems. That tempers my thoughts.

I stand by my vote and shall now disappear. I just got back from a family dinner that had 28 people in attendance. Talk of taxedermy and politics... :( I need a good night's sleep after that sort of thing. Or maybe a sturdy drink...

Hansy

02-21-2009, 06:55 PM

Just pointing out that I'm a boy. :p ;)

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 06:55 PM

s.

The "focus on the bear, focus on the wolf" thing is a bit of a problem. The more difficult one has much higher rewards; the one that won't pay off as much is easier to manage.

I say we ought to focus on neither/both.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 06:56 PM

Hansy really confuses me. Is this his first game? Because he seems to know a lot more about this entire thing than I did my first game (or still do, as a matter of fact).

However, deadline is still over four hours away and I won't be voting for any of the newbies Day 1. Day 2 = fair game. I should be around poking my head in from now until then (trying to remedy my previous "awful" appearance, sorry Nog) if anyone's around and wants to bounce theories around. :p

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 06:56 PM

Just pointing out that I'm a boy. :p ;)

Coulda fooled me - with those big blue kitty eyes.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 07:00 PM

I just read that as "*throws a wench in the works...*

Oh, could we do that? Please?

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 07:05 PM

Be prepared for me to bandwagon, there are so many players in this game I'm not familiar with so until we get into Day 2 it will be tough for me to get a read on some of you. Just to warn you ahead of time so that it isn't held against me next Day. ;):D

As much as the warning is appreciated, that shouldn't get you off the hook if your vote ends up looking suspicious.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 07:10 PM

Hansy really confuses me. Is this his first game? Because he seems to know a lot more about this entire thing than I did my first game (or still do, as a matter of fact).

This is what worries me--we don't know, and however he answers it could be a lie. You're only a n00b once. Someone who joined the 'Downs just to play Werewolf probably knows a good chunk about the game and/or has played it elsewhere, but maybe not, and he's under no obligation to tell us which way it goes.

If he has played WW elsewhere, but wants to appear as n00bish as possible in order to foment confusion, then that points towards baddishness. And oddly enough, that's the impression I'm getting from him...

It's bad form to initiate someone into WW with a Day 1 lynch, but man, I'm tempted.

I should be up till deadline so I'll have plenty of time to go over all suspects.

In the meantime, Hansy, have you played Werewolf elsewhere?

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 07:24 PM

The votes then.

Kath for Nerwen
I already talked about this at length in #109.

Fea for Hansy
eenie meenie miny
…
Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.After not saying practically anything toDay she makes a "eenie-meenie-miny" -vote, which behaviour I still dislike a lot. Underlining one's vote is random alway rings my alarms. Saying you vote random doesn't mean anything as we others can't know whether you rolled a dice or not (or whatever; deciding beforehand to vote for the one who has posted just before you?). But saying you did it randomly kind of makes you less culpable of any innocent being lynched if it turns out that way and thence is perfect for the baddies. But that addendum about me there is most odd. So I'm saying intereasting things on Day1? Now what has that to do with anything? Lynching me toDay would not affect the fact that I'm able to talk toDay (Day1) in any way. So what is this? Buddying up? Sending signals to someone you think belongs to either / the other baddie-fraction?

Dury for Sally
Anyway...there's already a few people I'd like to get rid of just for the sake of being rid of them, but part of my beef with werewolf is when people simply play favorites...so I'm going to go for as random as possible here.
...
Just looking at who has posted, anyway, I picked out her on some sort of gut-reaction thing. The typical excuse. It's like pleading the 5th...my stomach told me to do it!Oh my! She wishes some people to be lynched but decides to be as random as possible picking someone with guts and then trying to explain it away both ways (like it's nothing & sorry Sally).

Eönwë for Gwath
so I'll just go for a semi-random vote:
...
Because his 2 posts said nothing at all relevant.
Now what is this random-vote mania all about? I haven't seen this kind of voting for years! If you had a reason to vote for Gwath, why do you say it's "semi-random" then? What's the matter with all of you? :rolleyes:

Eomer for Sally
Exudes a sense of delayed reactions. First part of the day is the time, if indeed there is a time - something to be doubted -, to repeat the fact that there are gifted allies and enemies in the game, and that necessity dictates our discovery of one of those enemies. Frivolous, for sure, but in the least game-related: an acceptably lazy first post. Her first few posts, alas, were empty.
And then she sought something to say. Too eager to show herself.
Not the only one, it's true.
Finally someone giving reasons for his vote... Although as he said himself in the end, Sally's not the only one who has behaved like that toDay so it would have been natural for you - were you innocent - to elaborate that one a bit; who else did you consider were acting like that, from whom did you choose her? Now it looks a bit too convenient vote to my taste. You're careful not to suspect others but just imply you have seen similar behaviour around to look good and not to get anyone on you to retaliate. Hmm...

Okay. You're not all baddies... I think. But let me bet something that we have at least one baddie here already...

I seem to have crossposted with a bunch of posts...

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 07:39 PM

Speaking of cryptic - Eomer's really going crazy with those Scottish seanfhacalan.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 07:43 PM

This is what worries me--we don't know, and however he answers it could be a lie. You're only a n00b once. Someone who joined the 'Downs just to play Werewolf probably knows a good chunk about the game and/or has played it elsewhere, but maybe not, and he's under no obligation to tell us which way it goes.

If he has played WW elsewhere, but wants to appear as n00bish as possible in order to foment confusion, then that points towards baddishness. And oddly enough, that's the impression I'm getting from him...

It's bad form to initiate someone into WW with a Day 1 lynch, but man, I'm tempted.

I should be up till deadline so I'll have plenty of time to go over all suspects.

In the meantime, Hansy, have you played Werewolf elsewhere?

Yes. (But I want my newbie status nonetheless :P) It is way too different from the way it is played here, though. It relies heavily on roles; I can't remember the last time I played with plain innocents/ordos before this game, for example, and there are second places (answering to Rikae, which I believe I missed before). You play almost like Mafia - and the way everyone's active, and analyse each other's posts to find which people are lying, it's an interesting approach that I wanted to experiment. I was trying to do my part on creating useful discussion - I didn't want to be misinterpeted as the cobbler or wild theorizer or whatever.

(Though at this point, I should be pretending I am the cobbler. It would certainly be more fun :p but not helpful, yeah.)

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 07:45 PM

[quote=Nogrod;586049Underlining one's vote is random alway rings my alarms. Saying you vote random doesn't mean anything as we others can't know whether you rolled a dice or not (or whatever; deciding beforehand to vote for the one who has posted just before you?). But saying you did it randomly kind of makes you less culpable of any innocent being lynched if it turns out that way and thence is perfect for the baddies.[/quote]

I think in some cases it's defensible to vote randomly and specify the randomness of the vote - for example, if it's Day One and you really have no time to vote thoughtfully, or really have no suspicions. As you pointed out, we're trusting to luck a great deal anyway. I do agree, however, that there have been an unusual number of random votes toDay. I'm not sure what I think about it yet.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 07:55 PM

I was trying to do my part on creating useful discussion - I didn't want to be misinterpeted as the cobbler or wild theorizer or whatever.

All right, though I'm not sure how much use the discussion itself had--no offense or anything. Probably more the fact that it occurred than anything else, and now people's reactions to it; and to those who, knowing how WW is played on the 'Downs and what's legal and what isn't, still went along with it.

I'll back off... for now. I just have to be wary of how you use your n00b status because I might be doing the same thing. :smokin:

On other notes, Nog is being ridiculously (by which I mean nothing but good) helpful, which means I'll funnel him into the same category as phantom. I definitely will not be voting for either of these toDay, but if they're still around after a couple of Nights I'll get really suspicious.

Still unsure of whom I'm actually going to vote--even though I've lurked these games for aeons I've never gotten good at Wolf-sniffing, and coupled with the fact that this is Day One it means that I'm highly likely to miss, or even worse, vote Gifted! :(

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 08:05 PM

Here's my list then in just the order it appears on the player-list...

Mirandir - She should have more time to make her presence felt - but if she's not going to do it later toDay ot ToMorrow I'd be glad to vote her out. But probably not toDay.

Durelin - One of my all-time enigmas. I must say I find her vote (and especially the explanation of it) the most confusing. I think she could do a bit better as a baddie and be like that in a rush and innocent. But I don't like the vote (the explanation of it) at all. It feels foul.

Feanor of the Peredhil - She's intelligent enough to make better claims on Day1 so a frustrated innocent then? No. The note about me saying interesting things (when there were no other commnets on anyone else in the vote-post) bothers me a lot.

Isabellkya - If there is a submarine-baddie she's one of my top candidates for that role. She can be sneaky like that and devastating later. Somehow my gut-feeling just tells the contrary at the moment.

Nerwen - Hasn't posted but once and very early in the game. I don't see the suspicions around her but wouldn't trust her either.

Eomer of the Rohirrim - Speaks sense which is highly appreciated. Still his vote left me a bit concerned about his motives.

the phantom - Let's see his track-record on Day3 or something if he's still around.

Brinniel - I tend to be nervously panicky with Brinn as she's probably the best in looking innocent but somehow I'm less so this time. I may be wrong with this but she is not my top worry right now.

satansaloser2005 - Another one I'm pretty scared everytime I play with her as she looks just so cute and funny all the time but still can create havoc during the Nights. But no special alarms as yet.

Gwathagor - I always feel bad when he gets lynched early on and is innocent - but he has not always been that and my pity has backfired badly. I'd like to see him post more to be sure but will not vote him toDay.

Lariren Shadow - Careful, soo careful and general that I would like to say I really suspect her. But I'm not too sure about it. She will be on my list of "to be followed" more closely. If I'd need to make a shot in a dark she'd be one of my top choices though.

wilwarin538 - Her talk about possibly bandwagoning toDay looks very strange indeed but she hasn't been around for so long a while I think she should have a chance for another Day at least.

Rikae - I'm not going to vote Rikae on Day1 unless I have strong reasons to do so. And as now I don't seem to have one.

Eönwë - He's around and is not around. Hard to say. He seems to post frequently and a lot but there's very little he says. A hunker-down baddie who wants to make a presence or just an ordo with nothing to say?

Mnemosyne - I'm forced to take back my words a bit with her. Looking at her posts closer makes me feel better of her. I mean her alliances.

Kath - I could vote for her just because of the way she acts - and it's not only a principle at work here but also the particular way she did it this time. I'm only afraid that my principle runs over my reason if I vote her. I need to think. (For those who do not know: she's the most sovereign baddie in the endgame so you should get rid of her early on just to be on the safe side, but then again, she can be the most reasonable, observant and independent-minded ally in the endgame as well if she happens to be a goodie.)

Hansy - Maybe he's the cobbler, maybe he's not. His seeming knowledge of the game even as a newbie might talk on behalf of that interpretation. But if the only thing we suspect him is cobblery let's go for bigger prices even on this Day1. If he continues the way he has started I think we'll hear more of him to make better interpretations. *Sorry about getting your sex wrong earlier*

Back with a vote and possible thoughts to accompany it as I sure have X'd with a host again...

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 08:09 PM

.

Gwathagor - I always feel bad when he gets lynched early on and is innocent - but he has not always been that and my pity has backfired badly.

Only the last time! Ha ha.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Sorry for lack of contribution– I couldn't get online before.

Thoughts–

Hansy. Rather creepy. He seems too confused about the rules of the current game to be a wolf (are we calling them wolves?), and probably too flamboyant to be the Black Queen. Might be the Black Pawn... in fact, he reminds me a lot of Lal when she was a cobbler.

Rikae: Tries to cast suspicion on yours truly, which seems awfully opportunistic after I'd just been given the first vote of the Day, and that a completely random one.

Which brings us to–

Kath. AIIIIEE!!!! Now my head may well explode. Would an innocent Kath vote like that? But then, would an evil Kath vote like that? After all, it's been established as one of the best ways of getting oneself lynched on Day One.

And then others follow suit...

Okay. You're not all baddies... I think. But let me bet something that we have at least one baddie here already...

Here's the problem: last game, I think, all the random voters on Day One were innocent. And most were experienced enough to know better, too.

EDIT: X'd since Gwath at #123.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 08:35 PM

Here's the problem: last game, I think, all the random voters on Day One were innocent. And most were experienced enough to know better, too.If that is how it was, that clearly is a problem. If there is a meme that says "vote random on Day1 to be on the safe side" which is spreading right now then we could just throw a lot for Day1 and skip the Day alltogether... and face the same problem on Day2, right? Inaction and uninvolvement should be the scariest ways to try and get through Day1's and not the safest... If there was a general mood that a silent-one / random-voter gets automatically killed at the end of Day1 we'd force the baddies from their safety-holes out in the open to talk - and to make mistakes so that we could catch them.

Blaah... I've said this probably a thousand times already... :confused:

But maybe this just kicked me enough to make my decision... I need to have a cigarette before it, though.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 08:47 PM

Looking through the last game the first three votes were all random. Two of the voters were innocent and one of them was the seer. :eek:

With that said, early, random votes do have a really good role in promoting discussion like the one that's currently going on. Nothing to make people sit up, pay attention, and actually engage in some serious talk amidst the banter than a good ole lynch vote! Voting for people just because they voted randomly is going to do nothing but give the baddies something else to hide behind.

That said, we don't have much else to go on...

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 08:58 PM

Lariren Shadow - Careful, soo careful and general that I would like to say I really suspect her. But I'm not too sure about it. She will be on my list of "to be followed" more closely. If I'd need to make a shot in a dark she'd be one of my top choices though.

I've been careful? Good to know. And is it sad that I feel honored to be on your list?:Merisu:

And to add here is my list:
Mira: Has only said something that made me laugh. Therefore I think she is innocent and should be kept around if just for the entertainment.

Durelin: Not sure if I have anything on her yet. Much is still to be seen.

Fea: Not sure what to make of her seer comment. It could just be her trying to play a role while being a pawn. But then I also have no idea what to make of her. She’s smart and a good player, I’ll give her that. The comment just gets to me. She could really be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.

Isabellkya: Izzy? Bella? Anyway, not much to go on here either. Just a few posts. Nothing much more.

Nerwen: Hasn't said a lot and I can see that's been because of the lack of internet.

Eomer: Has said little. Not sure what that means and I have no idea what his personality was like before his apparent new one. He has been making sense too.

the phantom: Shouldn’t die. He’s smart and really good at analyzing people. He could be a lot of help later in the game.

Brinn: I have no idea. I don't think I'm good at reading her though.

Sally: Again, not really an idea about her at all. Though other’s are suspicious of her. I’m not sure what to make of that. I can’t really get a good read on her.

Gwath: I wish I had more to say about people.

Wilwa: Really truly want something to be able to say.

Rikae: Now that I think about it, the Seer banter with Fea could possibly be two Wolves trying to communicate during the game. I don’t know what that means for us. Or it could be innocents just playing around, which is entirely possible considering.

Eonwe: Nothing.

Nog: Has posted an analysis of the posting pages. From what I understand this points to guilt because it’s easy to find fault where there is none in analysis. And this pointing to guilt is based on previous games where the guilty have done long explinations.

Syne: I like this nickname. Just saying. You can totally not like it. I consider you a newbie so that means I’m not going to vote for you for awhile. I know you’re not “new” but, well, you get a free pass. I do think that you warrent watching though.

Kath: Blah stupid Day 1.

Hansy: Newbie again. See above for reasons. And I played a Werewolf game before my first game here and got newbie status(and came in as Fea’s friend). But then again the game I played was not as active as any of the ones I’ve played here and was such a newbie I’m willing to give him the same status(I still don’t under stand the Hunter role that well).

So the people that I would possibly vote for, but am going to wait a little bit longer to vote on are:
Fea
Nog
or Rikae

The problem with this list is that these players are smart and good at pointing out baddies and are intelligent and would be good towards the end. I'm entirely not sure how I want to vote. I do know this: I think I want to stay away from the bandwagons, those mess me up.

Edit: x-posted with Mnemosyne

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 08:59 PM

I don't have a mind to follow the trend and vote randomly... even though I typically do on first days. But with so many others doing it, it feels too much like bandwagoning in a sense.

There has been a lot of usual-seeming banter in the beginning of the Day, with a bit smattered here and there throughout so far. I say seeming, mostly in regards to those I haven't played with Mira, Lariren, Wilwa and Mnemosyne - so if the banter-esque things so far are typical, then okay. I've no idea.

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

Hansy and phantom discuss mechanics. With a little bit of rule clarifying/questioning on hansy's part.

All of this proposing on what Day Fea and Phantom should be lynched.. is banter yes, but from so many.. Why not have them pick?

#92 Mnemosyne says "Dwell too much and we either look like baddies ..... or give baddies ideas." In response to my question on what good it would be to spend a bunch of time theorizing about the White Queen.
She makes a good point that we look at both the wolves and the bear; while not at the expense of on, in favor of the other.
#116 Gwath says we ought to focus on neither/both in regards to the wolves and the bear.
- Could you elaborate on this a bit Gwath? I think I know what you are saying, but would rather see the words - than have an imaginary response in my head.

Mira and Mnemosyne wonder about Hansy's playing experience, and whether or not he may be playing up the newbie card.
Gwath comments on random voting.
#126 Mnemosyne comments and wonders about usefulness of Hansy's earlier theories and the veteran Downers contributing.

I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm? Dwelling too much on mechanics of the game, is to a certain extent pointless. However an excellent tool if you are a baddie - since it involves distracting the village. Yet, here you are bringing up a mechanical topic in regards to Hansy. Seems to be a bit contradictory to me.

On that note of Hansy. I'm not yet worried about him, and in terms of general Werewolf, the ideas are not outlandish to me. As I know what he speaks of; though they are probably "out there" in terms of this style of werewolf playing.

Edit. X'd since Nog's #130.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 09:01 PM

This is a hard one indeed.

Sally leads with two votes. I would be happy to know what she is as she always scares me but somehow I'm afraid she's the "easy lynch" this time.

Nerwen, Hansy or Gwath I would be very reluctant to aid lynching toDay either.

So maybe it's still time for a new candidate...

Kath? Fea? Dury? Isabell? Eönwë? Lari?

With any statistical probabilities there is at least one baddie in there as well as in any group six in this-sized game... :rolleyes:

Voting for people just because they voted randomly is going to do nothing but give the baddies something else to hide behind.
Random voting is a thing behind which you might try to hide. So is voting for those who vote randomly - and so is also voting along the lines of any stated principle (voting for the silent-ones, voting for the careful ones, voting for the controversial ones to know what they are so as they would not bother you later; not voting newbies, not voting your friends, not voting those you think could contribute a lot...). Everyone can pick the grounds for themselves - but we need to be able to see why they choose what they choose when there are no more pressing reasons to vote someone...

But there are differences. Certain options boost the game and force the baddies to act and others give them free-rides... and some are purely social and have nothing to do with the game itself.

EDIT: X'd with Lari & Isabell

the phantom

02-21-2009, 09:03 PM

Quick thoughts...

I like the way Hansy thinks. I realize that means nothing about guilt and innocence, but I am unlikely to cast a random Day 1 vote in the direction of a Noob that shows promise.

Fea feels fine. Rikae too.

Nog is looking as he always does. Right now I would lean innocent for him.

I wish Eomer was around more, as what he has said thus far has been to my liking.

Since I've never seen her play, it is no surprise that I don't have a feel for Mnem. She certainly hasn't done anything to make me wish her dead though. Give her at least another day.

And I would hate to lynch the usually vocal Sally just because she's having temporary difficulties.

And just generally I'd like to hear more from everyone. But that is always the case on Day 1. Things should be more comfortable tomorrow.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 09:08 PM

Updated voting-

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally (2)

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 09:10 PM

#116 Gwath says we ought to focus on neither/both in regards to the wolves and the bear.
- Could you elaborate on this a bit Gwath? I think I know what you are saying, but would rather see the words - than have an imaginary response in my head.

Oh, sure. I meant that we should focus equally on both the werebear and the werewolves.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 09:11 PM

I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm? Dwelling too much on mechanics of the game, is to a certain extent pointless. However an excellent tool if you are a baddie - since it involves distracting the village. Yet, here you are bringing up a mechanical topic in regards to Hansy. Seems to be a bit contradictory to me.

I knew I was being unclear in that post. I said I didn't think there was much use in the mechanical discussion itself. But if a veteran Downer began to actually take one of these and run with it, that would raise red flags for me, for precisely this reason.

So Hansy was being helpful in starting up a discussion there, simply because it was stirring the pot. Now we have more reactions to look at, and reactions to the reactions like that specific post that you mentioned.

That's why I mentioned that topic in that post--which I should add I was not the first to do. Noggie naturally mentioned the discussion when he was summarizing his thoughts regarding page 2, and I believe it was the mechanical discussions themselves that gave rise to the discussion of whether Hansy was milking his n00b status a little too much. That specific post was in response to Hansy's response to my questioning him from that discussion (good luck following that sentence!).

Rikae

02-21-2009, 09:26 PM

Must vote

++Eönwë

Seems to be talking just to talk. Lots of responses, lots of jokes, very safe... sometimes seems to be talking from the evil perspective (first post). Insubstantial but involved. Looks creepy.

Now Rikae sleep. Too old for late DL.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 09:27 PM

(good luck following that sentence!).You're nearing the sentences of myself and Legate here... :)

And good to see you Isabell back in action with a swing! You're off my vote-list toDay, definitively. We need people able to spot things to get the discussion going!

Lari looked reasonable as well and I'd hate to lose her toDay were she an innocent. Her post gave me a welcomed perspective to what contributing means with people you have not followed too closely. There sure are ones that go under her performance toDay... quite a many to be frank.

So what should it be then? I still have Kath, Fea, Dury and Eönwë there. The three first trying to slip under the radar with nonsense and randomness and Eönwë for showing a presence with nothing to say in concrete terms (and using that terrible "semi-random" -vote). All ways of trying to sneak through Day1 suitable for baddies.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 09:29 PM

You are worrying me a bit with your short one sentence posts, Gwath

Ah, okay. It just seemed that you had a bit more focused intent behind your posts in regards to that discussion, Mnemosyne.

Right now phantom, Nog, Rikae, Fea, and Sally stick out most in my mind, because of their typical behavior.
Sally for her typical silliness, so I can't ever really read her.
phantom, Rikae, and Fea because they always seem to be the more daring.
Nog because I can always expect to see long analyzing posts from him.

Mnemosyne, Gwath, and Hansy stick out in my mind as well.
Hansy because I've played with him elsewhere, and curious to see how he does and likes this style.
Mnemosyne and Gwath because something just doesn't seem quite right. Though I think in terms of voting right this very second, I would pick Gwath over Mnemosyne.

However, since there are about 2.5 hours left until deadline. I've time to revist the pages again.

Edit. x'd with Rikae and Nog. Also left out the word 'again'.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 09:32 PM

Mnemosyne and Gwath because something just doesn't seem quite right.

Care to be more specific?

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 09:45 PM

Gah, it took me over an hour to catch up on the Day...

Some further comments about roles:

Someone mentioned (it might've been Eonwe) that it'd be best we not discuss the gifteds, particularly the White Queen. I agree. It's better if we let the baddies attempt to figure out the gifteds on their own rather than unintentionally give them clues to who the gifteds may be by discussing them.

Rikae also mentioned earlier that we should be wary if the White Queen reveals as it could be a false reveal. But I'd take that even further and say we should be wary of any reveal. With gifted wolves, it'll be even easier for them to successfully attempt a false reveal if one of them is at risk of getting lynched.

Okay, I know the discussion has moved on to talk more about the players than the roles, which is good. I'll be back later with some thoughts I have on players so far.

Hansy

02-21-2009, 09:45 PM

Now I realized I should've done the analysis bit earlier; because it's almost 4am here, and my brain is certainly not functioning how it should. So, as voting is mandatory, I'll just flat out avoid having anything to do with it.

++Fea

"Revenge vote", I don't think you'll execute a veteran today anyway; here's the promise to check on Day 1 happenings tomorrow, the first thing I'll do is to re-read stuff and write my first of those oh-so-famous lists. :p

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-21-2009, 09:47 PM

Werewolf games...

(Though at this point, I should be pretending I am the cobbler. It would certainly be more fun but not helpful, yeah.)

This is really, really strange... but I feel like I'm playing werewolf with myself.

Hansy reads to me like what would happen if I'd created an alias account, signed up to play two roles (myself as Fea and my alter ego as Hansy), and was sitting back watching the chaos.

It's really quite strange, playing werewolf with somebody that reminds me of myself.

I really don't know if you should take that as a compliment, Hansy.

The note about me saying interesting things (when there were no other commnets on anyone else in the vote-post) bothers me a lot.

Fine. Whatever. I'll explain.

So this morning after my flippant comment about Han shot first, and then remembering Lommy's RL name, and my equally flippant comment about 'zomg, if Loms was playing, that could have been a clue!', I realized that we actually had a player calling himself Hansy.

I about died laughing when I noticed my oversight, but then imagine my surprise when I log on again and notice that you've said something about the Black Queen playing Solo.

With a capitalized S.

Which I took to mean as a reference to The Solo, Han the Magnificent.

Which I then thought... what if Nog is a seer and dreamed of the Black Queen on the very first night, and is hinting that Hansy aka Solo is the Black Queen!?!

My jaw dropped, I thought, "No... that's impossible." But then I thought "But then why did he capitalize Solo if not because of the Han stuff?" And then I was sitting there rereading all of this "But what if the Black Queen wants to help the good guys" stuff from Hansy, and what else what I supposed to do when I was supposed to be assuring my paternal aunts that I'm getting good grades? :eek:

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

The comment just gets to me. She could really be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.

Darling, I own skin tight turquoise jeans. Do you really want to tell these people I have style? :p

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

Yes, I was very much wondering this too. Is the role just to wreak havoc, or is there more nuance to it?

All of this proposing on what Day Fea and Phantom should be lynched.. is banter yes, but from so many.. Why not have them pick?

Well, phantom doesn't like the stress of the last day, whereas I adore the intensity of the five minutes before deadline when only three players are standing and you KNOW that one is evil, and every word you type is going to either make or break the game-

I say we let both of us live until near the end, then lynch the phantom the day before the last day, leaving me around to attempt the impossible and savor sweet victory for the team that I am on.

It sounds so dramatic when put that way...

:Merisu:

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 09:48 PM

In terms of Mnemosyne I get the feeling of almost trying too hard. A forcefulness. However I think it can be attributed to being new.

With you, you are not new. You've made a total of twelve posts, and the longest one is four sentences long. The majority, if not all of them are in response to what other people have said. Half of the twelve are banter.

EDit. X'd with Brin, Hansy and Fea.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 09:50 PM

Darling, I own skin tight turquoise jeans. Do you really want to tell these people I have style?

Oh, you have style, all right. It just happens to be different from most people's.

Your comments about Hansy are interesting (conspiracy theories FTW!)--specifically the part that reminds him of you. I may or may not keep that in mind as I deal with him...

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 09:54 PM

In terms of Mnemosyne I get the feeling of almost trying too hard. A forcefulness. However I think it can be attributed to being new.

Ouch.

Believe me, I'm not trying too hard or even trying. I'm being spontaneous and revelling in trying out new things because they're new and the fact that, for now, no one's going to be able to lay a finger on who exactly I am as a player. I can do something and hang if it makes me look suspicious because I'm thoroughly dispensable. If I were trying too hard, I'd be covering something up. There's nothing to cover up here.

It's just me.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 09:55 PM

Updated voting-

Kath +++Ner
Fea ++++Hansy
Dury +++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally (2)
Rikae +++Steve
Hansy ++Fea

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 09:58 PM

Darling, I own skin tight turquoise jeans. Do you really want to tell these people I have style? :p

And would probably wear them if your hair was bright pink as well.;)

I should consider my vote some more. I have about an hour to think about it.

Edit: x-posted with the phantom.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 09:58 PM

It's really quite strange, playing werewolf with somebody that reminds me of myself.
See? I told you I like the way Hansy thought. That proves it. Hansy is like Fea. :)

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 10:02 PM

Care to be more specific?You are worrying me a bit with your short one sentence posts, Gwath:rolleyes:

I was already thinking of voting Eönwë until I saw Rikae's vote and that changes things a bit. I had a tingling feeling that voting Eönwë is another easy option toDay (alongside Sally) but still the way he is at the top of the posting-list and has managed to say nothing definitive or particular bothered me.

But as Nerwen pointed out Rikae's actions can be interpreted as a bit opportunistic and her vote now sealed it to me. That was an easy one and alarmed myself as well to reconsider. I have no case against Rikae, but her vote clearly fits in with a clever-baddie wishing to get away with Day1 quite nicely. So I'm not too happy to vote for Eönwë anymore.

With Kath I'm afraid I'd be going on with a habit of suspecting her (following our different ideas how Day1's should be played even if I think her performance this particular time was just terrible).

With Dury there is a problem that her voting post is just so crazy (three different and almost exclusive reasons given at the same time + trying to apologise afterwards) that it might speak more of her being in a hurry and with no stakes in the game than actually being a baddie.

Fea I would love to see around as she's always fun to read and talk to but looking at her posting just "objectively" tells me she's done actually nothing but played it very safe + there was this odd addenda in her votepost that I couldn't read as anything other than as a way of trying to contact someone she thought she could gain from.

Okay there's the post by Fea explaining it - and it sounds too fanciful to be forged... :)

I used the capital H in purpose to refer to the joke you had made earlier about Han Solo - and saying that the Black Queen is "working" Solo felt like something fun.

Anyway, Day1's have been useful already at Day1 itself. Don't lose your patience. I've seen it a couple of times - I've also seen those where the lynching of the wolf on Day1 was not triggered by a back-stabbing wolf but was due to the capabilities of the villagers...

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 10:16 PM

With you, you are not new. You've made a total of twelve posts, and the longest one is four sentences long. The majority, if not all of them are in response to what other people have said. Half of the twelve are banter.

If you go back over my games, you will find that I am characteristically terse, and that my participation increases as the game goes on. It may not be an ideal style, but it's mine, and it doesn't indicate anything spooky going on.

Lariren Shadow

02-21-2009, 10:17 PM

Alright, so I've been thinking about my vote. I know that my choices, at least I think, are Fea, Nog, and Rikae.

I don't really want to vote Fea because, well, she really hasn't had that much time to play. But there is the problem that I'm still not sure what to think of her and Rikae's seer comments to each other. There the question becomes if I believe them then who is the evil one? Or it could be pawns playing with each other.

I do still have the suspicion that giving a lot of analysis means guilt. And that is stronger in my mind right now than the whole Rikae/Fea thing. Because, well, I could see them just messing with us. Really really messing with us.

So I'm going to vote for

++Nog

Now I'm going to bed to get up for work in the morning.

Edit: x-posted with Gwath.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Meh- I don't particularly want to lynch anyone. But I guess someone must die, right?

Of those with votes, I have already defended Fea, Sally, and Hansy. The others I just have no feel for at all.

On one hand there is a person or two that I suspect is a Pawn, so I could vote for them in order to avoid hitting a gifted White piece. But that would be silly as voting for the person you most suspect is an Ordo is totally not the way this is supposed to work.

Gah. What I wouldn't give to get a strong guilty vibe from someone. Even if it was wrong, it would make me feel better. But I suspect that I won't even begin to find my footing until my Day 2 readthrough of Day 1 and the slayings in between.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Fea: Not sure what to make of her seer comment. It could just be her trying to play a role while being a pawn. But then I also have no idea what to make of her. She’s smart and a good player, I’ll give her that. The comment just gets to me. She could really be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.

*shrugs* I have yet to play a game with Fea where she doesn't claim to be the Seer at some point. Rikae's quite fond of claiming to be gifted too. With those two, it doesn't really tell you much.

Nog: Has posted an analysis of the posting pages. From what I understand this points to guilt because it’s easy to find fault where there is none in analysis.

So... how are we meant to catch anyone, Lari? I know we had analytical wolves the last few games– that's because they (we, actually) were trying to look typically innocent. As for Nogrod himself– well, he makes a very sneaky wolf and is always worth keeping an eye on... but so far I don't think he's done anything particularly lynch-worthy.

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

An odd question– the usual cobbler role-description is "on the side of the wolf-team".

EDIT: X'd since tp at #135 (had to go and do chores).

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 10:20 PM

What I wouldn't give to get a strong guilty vibe from someone.

Want me to start posting suspiciously?:Merisu:

the phantom

02-21-2009, 10:21 PM

I already know I won't be voting for you, so it wouldn't help Mnem.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 10:25 PM

Time to decide.

++ Fea

If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.

Remember your vote post consisted of the vote and the remark of my "ability to say interesting things" on Day1 (which is ridiculous as your vote would not affect my talking abilities on Day1). So you were up to something else there, trying to give a signal to someone if what you say you thought was true and you really did think that... or then you thought I was a baddie and you're the cobbler... (you could be the cobbler also if you just plain took me for a seer), or whatever.

Let's see what you said there again:I have to peace out, so here's my early vote:
eenie meenie miny
++Hansy
Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.So you're pointing it to someone that I should be watched, maybe treated specially the next Night?

I can see no reason why you would act like that as an innocent - as you yourself agreed you had thought I was the seer... :p

So sad to say this but I believe you're up to no good this time.

And anyway, I'm not what you might think I am so just let it come baddies! The village only loses an ordo with me.

EDIT: X'd from Lari's vote-post...

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 10:32 PM

If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.

Oh wow. That is a very good point.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 10:32 PM

And anyway, I'm not what you might think I am so just let it come baddies! The village only loses an ordo with me.
Really? Then never mind. I was going to suggest that the Knight protect you this Night instead of me, but since you don't mind I'm going to go ahead and request that he do what he had originally planned and stick with me.

Which Knight? Both of them. Just to be safe. And I believe that both Bishops should dream of me too. And the Rooks should hunt me! Erm... wait... never mind that last one.

wilwarin538

02-21-2009, 10:36 PM

Alright, my random thoughts, and my vote.

Mirandir: not much from him, so don't really have a feel yet

Durelin: voted for Sally, I find him (her?, sorry!), interesting and somewhat entertaining, inclined to keep him around

Fea: love her and am very excited to be playing with her, therefore she's safe.....for toDay atleast

Izzy: I'm inclined to think innocent so far, nothing's popping out at me.

Nerwen: Seems to be thinking logically, got randomly voted for so I feel bad for her.

Eomer: aw Eomer, voted for Sally aswell, so cryptic, though he has fooled me in the past I'm gonna give him a chance, he's definitely entertaining

the phantom: is safe toDay for me because he's smart and because he said this :):
Good to see you again Wilwa. I remember that it was you who hosted one of the best Werewolf games ever. ;)

Brinniel: Don't really have much on her, said she would be back later but I'll be asleep by then, so not sure yet, a maybe perhaps, on my list

Sally: got voted for twice already, had computer difficulties, I understand that, won't be holding it against her today

Gwathagor: Said he's unsure of the random voting going on, though in my opinion that's all Day 1 is about, there's nothing to base anything on so a few people vote random and everyone else voting later just copies or votes random themselves, unavoidable. So I don't know about him either, but he's on my list.

Lariren: Focused on roles alot, though so did most, but posted a fairly lengthy post so I'm inclined to let her be for now

Rikae: Voted for Eonwe, I have a good feeling about her, like her style, for now;)

Eonwe: (Steve is it?) Voted for Gwath, not sure about him either, posts alot but not necessarily anything concrete, on my list

Nogrod: called me Wilva, but I think I can forgive him for now, seems innocently enough

Mnemo: Confusing, but he's a noobie so I'm not really gonna consider him at all today

Kath: Have some past experience with her, I know that random vote for Nerwen isn't exactly like her, though it makes me uneasy I'd like to give her another day

Hansy: voted for Fea, I too like the way he thinks, and along with that he's new so I'm willing to keep him around

So that's the best I've got for toDay, Day 2 will be a lot better for me and I'll probably be going back and rereading everything and saying a lot more.

So my vote I suppose now, since I definitely won't be getting back on toDay.

For me it's between Brinniel, Gwathagor and Eonwe.

Don't want to bring another person into the mix, so between Gwath and Eonwe I will vote for:

++Eonwe

Hopefully I will see you all next Day.

edit: x-posted, with lots of people

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 10:36 PM

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally
Rikae ++Steve
Hansy ++Fea
Lari ++Nog
Nog ++Fea
wilwa ++Steve

Sally - 2, Fea - 2, Steve - 2, Nerwen, Hansy, Gwath, and Nog - 1

And left to vote is Isa, Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Gwath, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 10:37 PM

If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.
I must have missed something. When did Fea not stay silent when she thought you were the Seer? I see that after it looked like you weren't, she spoke up and said what she had been thinking, but I don't remember her saying anything earlier about it. Did I miss something?

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 10:37 PM

Where does Fea say she thinks Nog is the Seer? I can't find it.

Hansy reads to me like what would happen if I'd created an alias account, signed up to play two roles (myself as Fea and my alter ego as Hansy), and was sitting back watching the chaos.

I hope that's not a confession...:eek:

EDIT: X'd since Gwath at #160.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 10:40 PM

Ok, I find Nogrod's argument intriguing - that if an innocent Fea thought Nog was even possibly a seer, there's no way she would point it out.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 10:41 PM

Er– Mirandir, you've listed Steve twice.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 10:41 PM

Ok, I better just do it.

++Fea

I really think Nog's right about this.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 10:42 PM

Ok, I find Nogrod's argument intriguing - that if an innocent Fea thought Nog was even possibly a seer, there's no way she would point it out.

But Gwath, where does she say it?

EDIT: X'd with Gwath again.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 10:47 PM

I really think Nog's right about this.
What is he right about? Will you or Nog share it with me?

And it appears Nerwen wants to know as well.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 10:48 PM

Where does Fea say she thinks Nog is the Seer? I can't find it.

I hope that's not a confession...:eek:

No no, that would be much to obvious. Clearly she'd be much more deceptive about it and create some controversy between her egos. Agreeing about everything is just suspicious. :p

So I've been sitting here for the past twoish hours trying to get enough focus together to make an awesome list and am ashamed to say have failed quite epically. My initial suspicion of Hansy still holds, mostly because the striking similarities between his style and that of both Fea and the phantom. While I haven't played with tp before, I did follow one of his games and have played with Fea, as well as followed a game with her. Both are the hardest people I have encountered in terms of reading and ideally having them both out of the way early on would be the least confusing, but probably detrimental to the chess game at hand.

SO. Just checked the rules in the case of a tie vote, and the lynch is randomized between all the people involved. This could be incredibly dangerous and I don't particularly want to add another person to the list of two votes each and thus will be waiting just a little while longer to see if anything else unfolds before voting.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 10:50 PM

Er– Mirandir, you've listed Steve twice.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath.

My bad. All fixed now. Blame the x-posting. :D

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 10:52 PM

Grah, this whole Fea/Noggie thing is turning into a debacle and I have the feeling that the black pieces are just sitting back and rubbing their hands with glee.

As far as I can tell, what happened was this: Fea took a very subtle Noggie comment to be a seer hint, and hinted back.

But since Noggie went all ?!? in response to that (though I'd like to see the post that made Fea think so) she realized her theory was complete and utter rubbish and then decided to explain the whole thing, now that she was reasonably sure that Nog was not the seer.

That hinting that she did? I definitely didn't pick up on, which doesn't mean squat. In fact, I thought it was nice and subtle: "Nog has an interesting way of saying things on Day 1." I thought after she posted the whole explanation that the only way that anyone would have figured out what exactly she meant was someone else who was in on the plan--though Valar know a lot crazier communications have gone on.

Now, it was the wee hours of the morn for Nog when he voted, so he may have been genuinely confused. But Gwath? You have some explaining to do!

*sigh*

When Fea looks the most suspicious, she's actually innocent...

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 10:52 PM

So shortly before deadline we're at:

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally
Rikae ++Steve
Hansy ++Fea
Lari ++Nog
Nog ++Fea
wilwa ++Steve
Gwath ++ Fea

Fea - 3, Sally - 2, Steve - 2, Nerwen, Hansy, Gwath, and Nog - 1

Isa, Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira still have to vote.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 10:54 PM

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

An odd question– the usual cobbler role-description is "on the side of the wolf-team".

.

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.

X'd since Gwath's #160.

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 10:56 PM

Which I then thought... what if Nog is a seer and dreamed of the Black Queen on the very first night, and is hinting that Hansy aka Solo is the Black Queen!?!

My jaw dropped, I thought, "No... that's impossible." But then I thought "But then why did he capitalize Solo if not because of the Han stuff?" And then I was sitting there rereading all of this "But what if the Black Queen wants to help the good guys" stuff from Hansy, and what else what I supposed to do when I was supposed to be assuring my paternal aunts that I'm getting good grades? :eek:

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

Here we go.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 10:57 PM

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.

In this game at least, they're dreamed as an ordo.

Black Pawn - Cobbler. If dreamt, appears as an ordinary innocent.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 10:59 PM

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

Which I took to mean, Gwath, that Fea realized that her entire Seer Conspiracy Theory was complete and utter bunk and so now she was explaining the whole thing (i.e., why she made that cryptic comment to begin with).

Gwathagor

02-21-2009, 11:07 PM

Which I took to mean, Gwath, that Fea realized that her entire Seer Conspiracy Theory was complete and utter bunk and so now she was explaining the whole thing (i.e., why she made that cryptic comment to begin with).

I think that Fea is too smart not to have taken into account the possibility that her comment would be enough to make the baddies consider whether Nogrod might actually be the Seer. Therefore, I think it likely she knew exactly what she did. It was just enough of hint to draw the baddies' attention to Nogrod, but not enough to make it look like she was painting a target on his back or something. Does that make sense?

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:08 PM

Just brushed my teeth at 6.45 (glad it's Sunday)

tp and Nerwen you should think again - maybe I just didn't make the point clearly enough. Fea made that weird voting-post where she said she votes for Hansy and then casually adds that Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.After that - after I questioned her about that addition of me "saying interesting things on Day1" (which looks like a deliberate formulation) in her vote-post, she explained she had thought me to be the seer who got the Black Queen on the first Night (with all that stuff with Lommy's first name in Finnish and Hansy vs. Han Solo etc.). That looks like genuine to me. She probably thought that IRL as it's too complicated to fabricate just like that. But why did she voice it in the first place if she really thought I was the seer? And why did she explain it that openly after being asked about it? A goodie would have not acted that way if she had that kind of an idea... but to a cobbler (or with different scenarios possibly other baddies as well) it might have been a decent thing to do.

The initial comment bothers me and also the way some people rush to explain it. Fea's explanation looks good as it's probably earnest but the reason she made the first remark looks more shadowy. And remember that she can be frank about her reasons for wrongly thinking me the seer even if she's a baddie but she can't explain why she had to make that unconnected remark in the first place.

Any ideas why she made it? Other than trying to hint to some other(s) with evil intentions about a possible treat for the Night?

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:10 PM

Ah, I think I see what Nog was talking about. I'm not sure what Gwath is talking about though. The section you quoted was after the fact. Fea's Seer theory had already been blown away, so it was merely an explanation for her behavior.

What I believe Nog was referencing was the fact that Fea had actually referred to him in the post where she voted, in a round-about way citing him as a reason for her vote for Hansy.

While it may have been reckless, it seems to me that it was less straightforward than it could have been (which makes her look better), while at the same time leaving an obvious opening for Nog to hint back and confirm her suspicions. Essentially, she was hoping she had spotted the Seer and was trying to see if she could work with him.

In my mind, the only crime here was that she was a bit reckless. I mean- what if it had turned out that she was right? And then suppose someone questioned why she mentioned Nog as support for her vote- how could she have explained that away in a manner that did not point a death-arrow at NogBishop?

Did you have a plan for that Fea?

X-post with Nog and Gwath

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:11 PM

To Gwath:

I suppose so. I thought it was just Fea being Fea and putting random crap into her post to confuse the heck out of people when it happened. You make more sense, but I still think lynching Fea is a big mistake at this point in the game.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:14 PM

Intreresting that you Nerwen and tp seem to be trying to cross-examine Gwath but do not bring forwards any positive solutions if you really think Fea is innocent - or if you know she is not... :(

Bring forwards a better case and I will consider retracking myself.

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:16 PM

Mirandir: Has only made a few posts so far and none make me think anything of her. I need more time and more from her to get a better read.

Durelin: I don't like her vote for Sally, but then again also I don't think it's necessarily suspicious. Dury is a mysterious one, and she was lynched too quickly last game for that reason. She is one to watch closely, but I'd rather not see her go just yet.

Fea: Hmm...I don't have any strong opinions about her as of now, though I know I do have a tendency to suspect her. She's one who always makes me wonder about her role, that's for sure. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing her lynched simply for the sake that I wouldn't have to be left guessing what her role could be Day after Day. But still, that's not a great reason, so I probably would only vote her if I could find no other candidate I prefer.

Izzy: I can imagine her to be quite the sneaky baddie. But so far I like what she's said and have no reason to vote her.

Nerwen: I'm pretty neutral about her as of now. I need to see more posts from her before I can form any sort of opinion.

Eomer: He at least gave a reason for his vote, even though I don't particularly agree with it. Too mysterious for me to form an opinion on him just yet.

the phantom: I've liked what he's said so far; his posts are rather sensible and he seems innocentish to me. That probably means that he is, in fact, guilty. :p

Sally: Little substance and a lot of banter, but that's quite typical coming from Sally. She looks more innocentish than guilty to me, and since she is unable to get online to defend herself from the ones who voted for her, I'd rather not see her lynched toDay.

Gwathagor: Makes several one-liner posts. Which I don't like, but just because I don't agree with his style doesn't mean he's necessarily guilty. However, he was quite quick to bandwagon based only on a comment from Nogrod. I just don't like when someone votes for another only based on another player's reasoning.

Lariren: Has been very thoughtful. I feel good about her so far.

wilwarin: Well, I don't like that she warns that her vote may look like a suspicious bandwagon vote long before she actually does vote. But then again, I can understand how hard it is to get a good read of anyone on Day 1 when you're not familiar with anyone's styles. I was quite thrilled to see her join this game since I know she's an early WW player and I have never had the opportunity to play with her before. So I'd rather not see her go anytime soon.

Rikae: Not raising any alarm right now, but she is one I'd like to keep a close eye on as she can be quite dangerous when evil.

Eonwe: Says a lot about roles and little about other players. That alone can be a bit suspicious, though it's a bit early to tell.

Nogrod: So far seems like the typical Nogrod, which could point either way as to where his true alliance lies. But if innocent, he can be quite helpful, so I'd rather not see him go so early again. Plus, I do feel a bit guilty that I was partially responsible for his last two early deaths.

Nemo (c'mon, it's not that bad to share the nickname with an adorable clown fish :p ): Is near the top of the post count on this thread...quite impressive for a newbie. Then again, I can hardly call her a newbie. She's been watching us for quite sometime now, and just because she hasn't actively played until now doesn't mean she hasn't learned to strategise and fool us all. I like that she's been so active, but I can't help but feel slightly worried about her. I won't vote her toDay because she is a new addition, but she is one I'd like to watch closely.

Kath: Yeah, her vote was random but it seems like a typical Kath-has-no-time move. She's voted randomly before and it doesn't point to either innocence or guilt.

Hansy: Is an interesting new addition. I could tell he was familiar with WW, but at the same time he seems a bit confused with the rules. Could be an act, or he could just be adjusting to a WW game that's dramatically different from anything he's ever played...I think it's the latter. Don't care for his "revenge" vote, though. Voting someone just because they voted you is just taking the easy way out. He could be anything.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:17 PM

What I believe Nog was referencing was the fact that Fea had actually referred to him in the post where she voted, in a round-about way citing him as a reason for her vote for Hansy.Well, it took time for you to see it... I only referred to it something like five times... :rolleyes:

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:18 PM

But why did she voice it in the first place if she really thought I was the seer?
I wouldn't go so far as to say she voiced it. She merely made a comment that is impossible to understand that mentioned you in it.

As I said earlier, it was a bit reckless to make a comment that is difficult to explain your way out of, but she may have been banking on no one even bothering to say anything about it. I don't know.

I understand your reaction completely, but I'm thinking this sort of thing falls right into line with the sort of person Fea is.
And why did she explain it that openly after being asked about it?
Now this I'm not with you on. The fact that you asked her about it made it clear to her that her theory was wrong (if it was correct you would've reacted much differently), so why not just explain?

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:18 PM

I will probably end up voting for one of these players:

Fea
Eonwe
Gwath

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:20 PM

To Nog

I think the whole thing is just a huge distraction at the moment, especially considering how close to dl it is, and that we need to focus on other portions of the game and other people. Now that I see where the exact area of confusion lies I certainly won't begrudge you and Gwath your votes. But I don't want to let Fea die, not yet.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 11:22 PM

I think that Fea is too smart not to have taken into account the possibility that her comment would be enough to make the baddies consider whether Nogrod might actually be the Seer. Therefore, I think it likely she knew exactly what she did. It was just enough of hint to draw the baddies' attention to Nogrod, but not enough to make it look like she was painting a target on his back or something. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does, actually. The bit I couldn't find was her explanation (the Star Wars stuff).

It's rather headache-inducing. The original comment doesn't seem like much– in fact I was surprised Nogrod reacted to it– but she does appear to be saying she thought Nogrod was the Seer at the time she made it.

EDIT: x'd since Nog at #180.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:23 PM

Well, it took time for you to see it... I only referred to it something like five times...
Sorry about that. I'm having difficulty keeping everything straight tonight. I'm trying to do several other things at the same time. Big day tomorrow.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:27 PM

Also, Nog, the reason I at least was going after Gwath was because he took up your argument so willingly and voted rather quickly too. Looks tricksy, that.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:28 PM

Now this I'm not with you on. The fact that you asked her about it made it clear to her that her theory was wrong (if it was correct you would've reacted much differently)I can see the way you defend Fea both socially and argumentatively, but with the latter I still disagree. Wouldn't you - both as a seer or as an ordo - have asked her to check what she will answer? Would you have left that kind of thing just to the chance if the baddies notice it or not and you gain nothing of it? Of course you would have asked about it were you an innocent as it's a possibility to get hints from a baddie. Sure you would. Only if you had no pressing need for any information would you have left that kind of a chance untested? So what are your loyalities this time tp?

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:29 PM

As far as saying that Fea was trying to call attention to Nog in hopes that he'd die during the Night...

Why would she do that?

If she's a WereWolf- kill him tonight.

If she's the WereBear- kill him tonight.

Why bother hinting or anything of the sort?

Unless you're saying she's the Black Pawn, but if that's the case she could've been more careful and then right before deadline post her case as to why Nog is the White Bishop and request he be lynched. Plus, is a Pawn all we're gunning for anyway?

Yeah, yeah, it's better than hitting a Gifted, but still. I don't know. If she's guilty then the Black Pawn is the only thing that I think she could be. I don't think the chance of such a small pay-off is worth it, especially as her behavior is consistent with typical meddling reckless devious Fea that we know and love.

And no, I'm not trying to say your votes are bad. You've given your reasons, and I can see where you are coming from. Frankly you have a better case of guilt than any that I have right now, so I'll at least give you that.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:33 PM

I think the whole thing is just a huge distraction at the moment, especially considering how close to dl it is, and that we need to focus on other portions of the game and other people.I'm all ears with other possibilities - as I said already - it looks like I'm awake anyway...

And I see your point about Gwath taking my argument. It has certain merits indeed. But how about you all picking the "save Fea" -argument whatever the cost? Doesn't it look suspicious at all? :)

To me it looks more like a social reason for voting than actually playing the game... Yeah, it's nice to play with good friends - and I like to play it with Fea but now I just think that arguments support her guilt more.

I waiting for a better case.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:36 PM

Wouldn't you - both as a seer or as an ordo - have asked her to check what she will answer?
I guess this is where we split ways. No- as a Seer who dreamed Hansy as the WereBear I would not have questioned her. Definitely not! It would call attention to it. It would scream "Kill me, WereCreatures!"

What would I do? I would make some sort of subtle comment back (a wink or nudge basically) letting her know that she was doing well, or something along those lines. I would figure "She's spotted it, so if she's a WereCreature I'm dead tonight anyway. I might as well gamble that she's not and see if I can forge a useful alliance."

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 11:37 PM

At first I was quite confused as to what Phantom and Nerwen thought they had missed. It made me think I had missed something as well.
But, Fea's explanation of her "cryptic" hint or what have you - seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary for her.

I am going to stick with my earlier doubts. It may be your style, which I can't blame you for. I had a brief chance to try and sift through your past games - and only had time to quickly go through your most recent one's first Day. You seemed to be a bit more aggressive in it, than you are here. What that says, not entirely sure. I'd rather vote for one I've got doubts on, than leave it to a toss of a die.

++Gwath

X'ed since Nog's #185.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:38 PM

I'd like to save Fea because to me she looks like an innocent Fea. Besides, even if she's a tricky player her posts have punch to them, enough to stir up the pot and create situations like these which, maybe a Day from now, we can all analyze with clearer heads and see if they tell us anything about those involved.

I'm currently trying to look at players who haven't said much, with little to no opinions that players can work off of. That's the sign of a good sneak.

Nerwen

02-21-2009, 11:40 PM

As far as saying that Fea was trying to call attention to Nog in hopes that he'd die during the Night...

Why would she do that?

If she's a WereWolf- kill him tonight.

If she's the WereBear- kill him tonight.

Why bother hinting or anything of the sort?

Unless you're saying she's the Black Pawn, but if that's the case she could've been more careful and then right before deadline post her case as to why Nog is the White Bishop and request he be lynched. Plus, is a Pawn all we're gunning for anyway?

I assumed they were saying she's the Black Pawn. Although, now that you mention it, one of the other baddies might try to get a reaction out of the suspected Seer, as a test.

Your theory, meanwhile, is that innocent Fea was trying to hint to the Seer? Very foolhardy– but possible, knowing her.

EDIT: X'd since tp at #193.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:43 PM

So what are your loyalities this time tp?
I will aid whoever tells me I'm smart and funny.
waiting for a better case.
You won't get one from me. I have no guilty vibes thus far. I certainly suspect one or two people of being more than Pawns, but as I think they are just as likely to be White pieces, I'm not about to name them right before the WereCreatures get their Nightly kills. I'll read this day through tomorrow and then I'll be able to make a couple of cases.

At least I hope so.

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:44 PM

Yeah, yeah, it's better than hitting a Gifted, but still. I don't know. If she's guilty then the Black Pawn is the only thing that I think she could be. I don't think the chance of such a small pay-off is worth it.What I think is that she has no good intentions - whatever her role is. You may be right about her being the Black Pawn. It's the most probable answer. I agree. But as you said yourself: better a cobbler hanged than a gifted - or do you have a more believable case against a baddie? With Fea I feel we get someone who's not on the good side.

I wouldn't go for Fea with null reasons on Day1. Nope. Never. But now I think we're really after a baddie - even if just a cobbler she might be - and who knows if we get a bigger fish...

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:44 PM

Your theory, meanwhile, is that innocent Fea was trying to hint to the Seer?
Yeah. Like I did with Boro a couple games ago.

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:45 PM

But I don't want to let Fea die, not yet.

But how about you all picking the "save Fea" -argument whatever the cost? Doesn't it look suspicious at all?
Haha, this is totally reminding me of last game. :rolleyes:

And if it really is just like last game, it'd mean that Fea is innocent. But what would that make the other two candidates I had in mind?

Of course, just because something similar happened in last game doesn't it'll have the same results this time around. But it does make me more wary about lynching Fea.

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:47 PM

Brinn, don't forget that last game you were evil.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:48 PM

Does anyone have an updated voting tally?

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 11:51 PM

I'll make one if you give me a minute.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 11:53 PM

Kath -> Ner
Fea -> Hansy
Dury -> Sally
Eonwe -> Gwath
Eomer -> Sally
Rikae -> Eonwe
Hansy -> Fea
Lari -> Nog
Nog -> Fea
Wilwa -> Eonwe
Gwath -> Fea
Izz -> Gwath

Fea 3, Eonwe 2, Gwath 2, Sally 2, Nerwen, Hansy, Nog 1

X'd with Mira and left out a comma.

Mirandir

02-21-2009, 11:53 PM

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally
Rikae ++Steve
Hansy ++Fea
Lari ++Nog
Nog ++Fea
wilwa ++Steve
Gwath ++ Fea
Isa ++Gwath

Fea - 3, Sally - 2, Steve - 2, Gwath - 2, Nerwen, Hansy,and Nog - 1

Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira still to vote.

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:55 PM

Brinn, don't forget that last game you were evil.

Yeah, but I had no part in the whole "save Fea" thing. In fact, I was one who continued to advocate her lynching after no one else did. So, what are you trying to imply? That if this was an exact repeat then Gwath (who seems to be our rising candidate of late) is also innocent and Nogrod's evil?

But of course I don't expect this to be an exact replica of what happened that Day 3. But it'd be funny if it was. :D

Nogrod

02-21-2009, 11:55 PM

Fea - 3, Sally - 2, Steve - 2, Gwath - 2, Nerwen, Hansy,and Nog - 1

Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira still to vote.So everything's open still with 8 votes to come...

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:56 PM

What I think is that she has no good intentions - whatever her role is. You may be right about her being the Black Pawn. It's the most probable answer. I agree. But as you said yourself: better a cobbler hanged than a gifted - or do you have a more believable case against a baddie? With Fea I feel we get someone who's not on the good side.
Yes, I can see that, and that's why I'm not demanding that you change your vote or anything. Your reasoning is fine.

It just so happens that I think mine is good too and I don't want anyone else to vote for her. I want to save her if I can.

*sigh*

At least if my efforts are not successful, she is probably not gifted, and almost certainly not a Bishop dream. With her track record of getting lynched, I can't imagine the Bishop using his Night 1 dream on her. So from a strict probability perspective, we could make much worse lynches. I'm just thinking we could also do better.

satansaloser2005

02-21-2009, 11:56 PM

Waiting for the vote tally just in case (like to avoid a tie if at all possible, since I believe it's random kill in those cases) but for now I'm thinking of voting Fea.

Her comments earlier were fairly normal for her, but at the same time....bad vibes and all. Hansy also bothers me greatly, and Nerwen (not that she's said much, but still) trips my radar as well, as in genuinely trips it, just because of how she reacted to being voted. The problem is that Nerwen doesn't look bad enough to lynch (because I know I always paint her evil and don't want to err just because I'm a silly girl) and I hate killing newbies on the first Day. If Hansy still bothers me toMorrow, though, I'll be double plussing him.

Checking the thread again and then voting. Oh, and apologies for not being around much toDay. I'll explain in another post.

satansaloser2005

02-21-2009, 11:56 PM

++Fea

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:56 PM

Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira still to vote.
Kath already voted.

Isabellkya

02-21-2009, 11:56 PM

Mira - Kath and Hansy have already voted. xD

Edit. Replaced a comma with a dash.
X'd since Brin's #208

Mnemosyne

02-21-2009, 11:58 PM

All right, I don't feel terribly great about this, but

++Eonwe

Although I'm not terribly pleased to have Rikae in the ranks of people who voted for him...

Voting for him because he hasn't said much that's contributed to the game. A bit of Queen-spec (which I rather disagree with), banter, and then a random vote.

Nobody looks terribly suspicious. But while some people make me feel hot and cold, this one makes me feel decidedly lukewarm. I'd much rather lynch an unknown than someone I have some sort of a handle on. And I don't have a handle on anyone regarding Blackishness.

the phantom

02-21-2009, 11:58 PM

Ah, crap. I hate this part. I have nothing against Gwath, Steve, or Sally, but I feel like I need to vote for one of them to save Fea.

++Gwath

EDIT: x-post with several people

Brinniel

02-21-2009, 11:59 PM

++Gwath

EDIT: X-ed with the last two

satansaloser2005

02-21-2009, 11:59 PM

Mira - Kath and Hansy have already voted. xD

Edit. Replaced a comma with a dash.
X'd since Brin's #208

What she said. :)

K, so I went to pick up my new laptop cord today but there wasn't the usual free internet connection that I pick up when I'm at my house so I wasn't able to get on before I went to my youth group function. And I only returned from that....erm, 20 minutes ago? Ish? So yeah, sorry about that. *shrugs*

Shastanis Althreduin

02-21-2009, 11:59 PM

Voting is locked at 12:00 am, so... now.

Fea and Gwath to be put up for lynching, chosen by randomizer.

satansaloser2005

02-22-2009, 12:00 AM

I don't want who dies left up to chance. Anyone gonna break the tie?

EDIT: x'd with Shasta. Guess not. :(

Nogrod

02-22-2009, 12:00 AM

It just so happens that I think mine is good too and I don't want anyone else to vote for her. I want to save her if I can.

*sigh*Looking at Sally's vote I must say I will join your sigh...

*looks at the last posts* Oh my!

Numbers, anyone?

EDIT: Blah... too late.

the phantom

02-22-2009, 12:00 AM

Yeah, so Gwath is probably innocent too. But I just don't feel that I've got as a good a read on him as with Fea.

And despite how much we disagree, I still think Nog is fine. And if he's right about Fea then I'll support whatever he does tomorrow.

EDIT: x-posted with bunches again

Nerwen

02-22-2009, 12:02 AM

Well, guess I missed the vote. I'd like to point out, Shasta, that you cut us off before the deadline.

Shastanis Althreduin

02-22-2009, 12:07 AM

Well, guess I missed the vote. I'd like to point out, Shasta, that you cut us off before the deadline.

Well, it wasn't intentional. I clicked "Post" thirty seconds after my computer's clock went to 12:00 specifically to make sure I wasn't cutting anyone off. I guess the Downs' clock hadn't quite turned over yet, but I don't see any votes in the cross posts marked 12:00 am. I'd have counted them if there were.

Shastanis Althreduin

02-22-2009, 12:14 AM

Day 1

It was early in the chess match. Pieces were moved back and forth, sometimes across the board, no piece being taken. The tension began to heat up towards the end of the day as the two players jockeyed for position.

Then Gandalf made an error. A small error, to be sure, but an error nonetheless. Sauron crowed in triumph and knocked the pawn containing the soul of Gwathagor off into the fiery abyss of Mount Doom, replacing it with one of his own.

"Your move, O Wizard of Light," mocked the dark one.

Pieces:
Mirandir
Durelin
Feanor of the Peredhil
Isabellkya
Nerwen
Eomer of the Rohirrim
the phantom
Brinniel
satansaloser2005
Lariren Shadow
wilwarin538
Rikae
Eonwe
Nogrod
Mnemosyne
Kath
Hansy

Taken:
Shasta - Kxe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)

Shastanis Althreduin

02-23-2009, 12:00 AM

Night 2

After throwing some poorly worded insults (on the part of Sauron) and some carefully-chosen elegantly elocuted epithets (on the part of Gandalf), the two sorcerers went back to their chess game. Gandalf made two mistakes, one right after the other, and Sauron crowed again in triumph as he took first a pawn, then a rook from Gandalf's side of the board.

"My goodness, White Wizard, one would think you're hardly trying..."

Pieces:
Mirandir
Durelin
Feanor of the Peredhil
Isabellkya
the phantom
Brinniel
satansaloser2005
Lariren Shadow
wilwarin538
Rikae
Eonwe
Nogrod
Mnemosyne
Kath
Hansy

Taken:
Shasta - Ke3xe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:15 AM

The kills: wow. Rather disappointed that Eomer's gone; he was terse but he actually said something when he posted. I suspect he was killed because he was being helpful, but wasn't one of those Gold Star kills that the Bishop might have been protecting.

Not as sure about Nerwen, though. And darn, I wish we could've been told who killed whom!

Still recovering from the aftermath of yesterDay. Currently I'd really like an explanation for Sally's last-fifteen-minutes-of-the-Day vote for Fea, aside from "bad vibes." You can do better than that, my dear. And I'm really quite miffed that it was Gwath who got the tie, even though he looked vaguely suspicious for jumping on Nog's reasoning like that. I considered retracting to put him in the lead after that flurry of crosspost votes, but couldn't do it in good conscience since he was giving information and appeared to be nothing more to me than a misguided innocent.

Ah, well. What's done is done.

Whom're we killin' today? :p

satansaloser2005

02-23-2009, 12:18 AM

Day One Votes

Kath-->Nerwen at 6:36am
Fea-->Hansy at 4:37pm
Durie-->Sally at 4:39pm
Steve-->Gwath at 4:55pm
Eomer-->Sally at 6:18pm
Rikae-->Steve at 9:26pm
Hansy-->Fea at 9:45pm
Lari-->Nog at 10:17pm
Nog-->Fea at 10:25pm
Willa-->Steve at 10:36pm
Gwath-->Fea at 10:41pm
Izzy-->Gwath at 11:37pm
Sally-->Fea at 11:56pm
Nemo-->Steve at 11:58pm
Phantom-->Gwath at 11:58pm
Brinn-->Gwath at 11:59pm

Did not vote: Mira

Times are Central, GMT-6, known baddies are underlined and known innocents italicized. And for anyone who happens to not know, Steve is Eon. :D

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-23-2009, 12:26 AM

And darn, I wish we could've been told who killed whom!

Mnemo, we were told:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)

Q for Queen, B for Bishop.

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:29 AM

Drat. I'm not good at this game...

Thanks for the clarification.

satansaloser2005

02-23-2009, 12:29 AM

So the Werebear killed Nerwen and the wolf team killed Eomer? Right?

Thanks for clearing that up. I know nothing about chess. :D

EDIT: Oops. Read it right, typed it wrong. Werebear killed Eomer, wolf team killed Nerwen. Sorry, my mistake.

Mirandir

02-23-2009, 12:30 AM

I just want to apologize for not voting last night. There really is no excuse, but I got distracted shortly before deadline and by the time I remembered (at 1:01), it was too late. For what it's worth my vote was going to be for Gwath for the purpose of not lynching Fea.

Mirandir

02-23-2009, 12:32 AM

Mnemo, we were told:

Q for Queen, B for Bishop.

Tooootally did not pick up on that and I like to think I know something about chess. :eek:

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:33 AM

:eek:

I just did a quick numbers crunch to see where we stand right now. So forgive me for pointing out the obvious.

We're at 7 ordos, 3 gifteds, and 5 baddies (one of whom counts towards the ordo tally).

We outnumber them 2:1 at the moment. Or, statistically, one of those of us who have posted thus far toDay is playing for Sauron.

With this whole 2 kills/night thing, this margin is Not Good.

On the other hand, that makes our chances of killing a baddie at Day better.

One third of the players at the moment are evil. Keep that in mind, folks.

Mirandir

02-23-2009, 12:36 AM

One third of the players at the moment are evil. Keep that in mind, folks.

Do you mean in general or who are posting right now? Forgive me if it's obvious but my mind is functioning at very limited capacity at the moment.

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:38 AM

Well, at the time I was typing, only Fea, Sally and I had posted. So it was literally 1 out of 3.

But in general it's true, too.

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:41 AM

I am making no sense tonight, not even to myself!

Of course I don't know if that first statement in the post above is true or not. Statistically it's rather invalid, as it was only a sample of three--it was just a useful way of thinking about it.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-23-2009, 12:41 AM

and to answer his question:

suppose someone questioned why she mentioned Nog as support for her vote- how could she have explained that away in a manner that did not point a death-arrow at NogBishop?

Did you have a plan for that Fea?

In the event that I was right about him being Seer, and anybody noticed my comment but him, I intended to lie through omission about thinking he was the Seer, and would have amplified my faith in his ordinary intelligence and the organized mode of his rather linear thinking, which is often at cross purposes with my typically incoherent mind.

Apart from that...

It's twenty of two, and I need sleep, and my Kelly will kill me if I don't stop typing like... now.

I shall ponder (and sleep) and I'll be with you when the sun shines through my window once more...

Mirandir

02-23-2009, 12:43 AM

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:47 AM

And here I was about to jump down your throat as to how you could possibly be so sure of that.

:Merisu:

...Yeah, realized that 10 seconds after I'd made that first post.

satansaloser2005

02-23-2009, 12:47 AM

And here I was about to jump down your throat as to how you could possibly be so sure of that. :D

Well, there's certainly one obvious explanation....:Merisu:

Some ducks do have claws, after all.

Mnemosyne

02-23-2009, 12:48 AM

Speaking of explanations, Sally...

*prods*

Brinniel

02-23-2009, 01:49 AM

Seeing our numbers already dwindling quickly reminds me of how much I hate when games have two kills per Night. And the fact that three of the baddies are gifted doesn't help. Gah, I'm such a pessimist, but I can't help but think we're at a major disadvantage. If my calculations are correct, we have three Days to catch a werewolf in order to have a chance to win (or maybe four Days if there isn't two kills one Night). So while we will eventually want the cobbler and werebear dead, it's the werewolves we specifically should be concerned about at the moment.

Q for Queen, B for Bishop.
Heh, I didn't know that. Up until now, all those letters and numbers were complete gibberish to me. I just don't understand chess. But that's useful to know.

Nerwen looks like she was probably a safe kill, as she didn't say all that much. She only shared her thoughts on three players, then missed the voting. It's a shame she went so soon; a hunter would've been quite dangerous for the baddies later on as she would've had better chances of being accurate and from her posts I'm not sure we can get a good idea of who she could've targeted. It's frustrating to lose a gifted on the second Night, but then again it could've been much worse.

As for Eomer, he could've been a safe kill too since he did not say all that much. His death makes me think that Sally's probably not the werebear. I don't think she would take the risk of killing a player who only discussed and suspected her.

I have nothing else to say for now. It's late, I'm tired, and still need to shower before going to bed. I will probably be off and on most of the Day, though more consistently online towards the end. Which means toDay I shouldn't have to read four pages in one sitting, and hopefully this time my brain will actually be turned on as I think it was turned off up until now. For one thing, I realised in the final moments of yesterDay that I no longer could see any of my main suspects as baddies...a moment of realisation that came much too late. Not that Fea and Eonwe are off the hook, but I think toDay I need to wipe the slate clean and re-examine everyone.

the phantom

02-23-2009, 05:10 AM

I promised Gandalf and Sauron that I'd get up early and sweep, wax, and polish the game board. It'll take me quite a while- this place is filthy, blood and guts everywhere! But upon completion I should be able to take a good look at the moves of yesterday and last night and offer up an opinion or two. See you in about nine hours.

*sighs and grabs broom*

Rikae

02-23-2009, 07:47 AM

Man - fewer ordos in this game than special roles, now - a strange feeling.

That whole Fea/Nog situation after I went to bed yesterDay was... interesting. So much like last game, I can't help but think there's something planned in it. Nog's case against Fea was maybe slightly better than his anti-Durelin crusade then, but it still seems to me that Fea could very well be innocent, and the way so many jumped to vote for her (or defend her) is just odd. I'm going to take a close look at yesterDay's voting as soon as I have a free moment.

Also, there was something Izzy said yesterDay that gave me the heebie-jeebies (stay tuned for next week's episode...)

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the possibility of Nerwen being killed as a potential gifted yet. When I saw her role, I immediately thought "so that's why she was so jumpy!"

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-23-2009, 08:14 AM

but useless until after breakfast.

Then I shall take a look at my notes and try to find anything of value to post.

It's neat, having so many gifteds: instead of ordos who act without information, you can sit and look for people who fit specific role constraints. You might not find anything, but the potential is there.

It's not very useful early in the game, but I'm having fun looking for patterns. Though if my example with Nog is an indicator, maybe I should sit back and wait to be told what to think. :rolleyes::p

Lariren Shadow

02-23-2009, 08:44 AM

So I had a a few things that I was going to look at from yesterDay but then saw that they were explained/in the light of more sleep not as important. I really was going to ask about the Nog and Fea seer thing, but then thought better of it because it was explained already.

As for other things: would Nerwen have been a safe wolf kill because she didn't vote yesterDay?

As for thoughts on why Eomer was chosen: he was making a lot of sense, and sort of sounded like he was playing it safe as a gifted, but then again, I don't know his persona from before, therefore not sure what he would have been like as an ordo/gifted/baddie.

I really have nothing else interesting to say. Later I probably will, mostly because then more people would have posted/I will procrastinate doing work to go through again and see if anything catches my eye.

Edit: X-posted with pre-breakfast Fea.

Feanor of the Peredhil

02-23-2009, 09:18 AM

Sorry; got distracted by writing an essay about how video game mentality could solve the world's economic problems. Still haven't eaten...

I'll be around for real later.

Rikae

02-23-2009, 10:10 AM

The voting:

#33 Kath for Nerwen:
Hey all I'm sorry to do this but my weekend got very busy and the deadline was much earlier than I'd thought! This means that right now is the only chance I have to post toDay.

Therefore I'm going to randomly vote right now because I've read through what there is on the thread and, well, it's hardly helpful in making a decision!

++NERWEN

Because she was the last person to post before

Unlike some, I don't think this looks particularly bad. She's clearly not trying to get Nerwen lynched (later she calls her “thoughtful”) and at this point no one had voiced suspicion toward Nerwen. Casting a random vote for an unhelpful person might look less dangerous, but, in the end, is more likely to start a bandwagon. Now, if she continued playing this way, it would be totally irresponsible, but I expect she won't.

#101:

Fea's vote and infamous comment:
eenie meenie miny

++Hansy

Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.

Now, when I read this, my first thought was that she was referring to Nog's comment about Hansy being the “greatest cobbler ever”... but supposedly, it's because she thought Nog was seerish. Now, it doesn't really make sense for either an evilie or a goodie to make hints about the seer... but this doesn't really look like that. It looks more like a hint to the supposed seer, as I would expect most people looking at it would think what I did – that she was just agreeing with Nog's reasoning. I don't find it particularly evil.

#102
Durie votes for Sally:
I'm going to go for as random as possible here.

++Sally

Just looking at who has posted, anyway, I picked out her on some sort of gut-reaction thing. The typical excuse. It's like pleading the 5th...my stomach told me to do it!

Yeah, not the best reason, especially where Sally is concerned, but what can you say....

#103

Steve for Gwath

I'll just go for a semi-random vote:

++Gwath

Because his 2 posts said nothing at all relevant.

This is pretty weak, and easy – but what's worse, I just realized, is the way Izzy then latches on to it.

#110 -
Eomer for Sally. Known innocent voting for decent reasons... and now I'm starting to wonder whether Sally could be a bluffing werebear, or the werebear attempted to frame her.

#139
Rikae for Steve. Seems to be talking just to talk. Lots of responses, lots of jokes, very safe... sometimes seems to be talking from the evil perspective (first post). Insubstantial but involved. Looks creepy.

#144

Hansy for Fea
"Revenge vote", I don't think you'll execute a veteran today anyway;

Easy. First vote for Fea. Not horribly evil, but Hansy had better do better than that from now on.

#154

Lari for Nog:
I do still have the suspicion that giving a lot of analysis means guilt. And that is stronger in my mind right now than the whole Rikae/Fea thing.

Ok, what? Eh? Lari is new, but she's been around long enough to know how Nog plays Analysis means guilt? *facepalm* That's just what this game needs, more encouragement for under-the-reindeer playing.

#159

Nog for Fea: If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.

I can see where Nog is coming from, but I think I have to conclude he's going overboard. That's kind of like him, though, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

#162
Wilwa for Steve. Eonwe: (Steve is it?) Voted for Gwath, not sure about him either, posts alot but not necessarily anything concrete, on my list Don't want to bring another person into the mix, so between Gwath and Eonwe I will vote for:

++Eonwe

Now, if this had come later, I might have thought it was a baddie trying to avoid the Gwath-wagon, but as it is, it looks innocent enough.

#168

Gwath for Fea. Known innocent following Nog. Indeed, it didn't look too good at the time. Mnemi then proceeds to defend Fea to Gwath. I might have done the same at that point, so I don't think it's suspicious.
Nog, however, starts suspecting Fea's defenders. He seems edgy and jumpy. I would suspect him strongly, if I hadn't seen him get all single-minded like this in other games, too, and turn out innocent.

#196
Izzy for Gwath. It looks rather bad at this point, especially since she admits “it may be your style”. She ties him with Sally and Steve.

#211
Sally for Fea.

Her comments earlier were fairly normal for her, but at the same time....bad vibes and all.

Not sure what to make of this. Voting for the leading lynchee because of “bad vibes” looks a little fishy – I can see a “bad vibes” vote early in the day, when there is little to go on, but here?

#215

Mnemi for Steve:

All right, I don't feel terribly great about this, but

++Eonwe

Although I'm not terribly pleased to have Rikae in the ranks of people who voted for him...

Voting for him because he hasn't said much that's contributed to the game. A bit of Queen-spec (which I rather disagree with), banter, and then a random vote.

Nobody looks terribly suspicious. But while some people make me feel hot and cold, this one makes me feel decidedly lukewarm. I'd much rather lynch an unknown than someone I have some sort of a handle on. And I don't have a handle on anyone regarding Blackishness.

What, am I bringing down the “voted for Steve” property values or something? :D It's a typical ordo-with-little-to-go-on-Day1 sort of vote, though. (If Fea is evil, Mnemi will deserve a closer look).

#216

tp for Gwath
Ah, crap. I hate this part. I have nothing against Gwath, Steve, or Sally, but I feel like I need to vote for one of them to save Fea.

Yep, nothing much to say there (except: why Gwath, and not Sally or Steve?)

#217
Brinn for Gwath without comment.

Conclusions:
Sally, Izzy, Steve, Lari, and to some extent, Nog, come out of the voting looking rather nasty. No one (as far as I can see) comes out looking especially nice, and Kath, Durie, and Hansy need to shape up and give decent reasons for their votes in the future *looks stern*.